On Vickie Guerrero and Jeff Hardy
So just when I thought the WWE stuff couldn't get any more tasteless than the Undertaker shoving Eddie Guerrero's widow into a casket, they do that storyline on their site where Jeff Hardy is found unconscious at his hotel.
And to nitpick with my fellow blogger Alfonso, the storyline that WWE prior to the PPV wasn't that Jeff had been attacked at his hotel. It was that he was found unconscious at his hotel. Given even the slightest bit of knowledge of Jeff and what he's gone through, I doubt there was a single fan on the planet who didn't instantly jump to a substance-abuse thing.
Wrestling loves to turn "reality" into storyline, but the problem is they hardly ever do it well. And when they do, it usually leads to worse problems in "reality."
Fact: Jeff Hardy is one strike away from his WWE career ending. More importantly, he could be one relapse away from endangering his own life. To turn his real-life struggles into a storyline is sick and twisted.
I'll get back to Jeff in a moment, but first, on to Vickie Guerrero. I read all your comments about my post from the weekend about how distasteful I thought it was for Undertaker to shove her into a casket right around the anniversary of Eddie Guerrero's death, and I agreed with a lot of the points you guys made. So here's a bit more of an explanation as to what goes into my thinking on this one.
Vickie Guerrero is a character on WWE TV because Eddie Guerrero died. Plain and simple. Sounds blunt and horrible, but think about it -- if there wasn't a huge outstanding circumstance, do you really see WWE putting a 40-year-old mother of two on TV in a prominent role? WWE saves its female TV roles for swimsuit models -- even Vince's own daughter underwent cosmetic surgery in order to fit in more with the view of the female product.
I'm a casual fan. No, I don't watch nearly as much as you guys do, I admit it. And yes, of what I've seen of Vickie, she IS a compelling character and has done a nice job.
But to dismiss a storyline of her being stuffed into a casket -- or one of Jeff being found unconscious in a stairwell -- with a simple "It was just a storyline" or "Aren't we past that yet?" is to become exactly the kind of enabler that runs rampant backstage at WWE. It's to advocate the kind of thinking that sends these performers down dangerous paths to begin with -- that the line between fantasy and reality is easily blurrable, that these people are easily able to separate the two, which trust me, is not always the case.
Vince's life is wrestling. His family's life is wrestling. He's surrounded by wrestling people and has never wanted for anything. And because his philosophy is "what's right for the business is what's right," then he feels everyone around him should give the same, even though they have complications in their daily lives that Vince wouldn't even understand. And the fact that Vince surrounds himself with enablers -- "yes men" whose survival on the business is contingent on keeping Vince happy and telling him what he wants to hear -- doesn't help matters.
I can't speak for Vince obviously, but in my opinion, he does stuff like this to make himself feel better about the horrible tragedies that have stemmed from the business, from his business. To him, making Vickie Guerrero an on-air character is a way of making the Eddie Guerrero situation a little more dealable, as if that helps make things right with Eddie's family. And perhaps involving Vickie in a storyline with a casket and death makes him feel better about it too, as if as long as she's OK with it, the whole thing is better now, desensitizing the whole "death" thing.
As for the Undertaker character itself, I don't have issues with a character that epitomizes death, especially since it was instituted well before the rash of wrestling deaths began (though imagine the backlash had the "Undertaker" character been started just in the past few years!). What I do have a problem with is involving the actual death stuff so intensely with a character so closely tied to a wrestling tragedy.
The people who work in the wrestling business have almost no sense of reality and fantasy -- they're more caught up in the "work" than any fan. As such, they live in an alternate reality, surrounded by enablers and yes men. The only way I can describe it is to imagine you're always on vacation -- you know how when you're on vacation, you tend to justify your actions as anomalies, so you eat a little more, drink a little more, do some stuff you wouldn't normally do? Now translate that to 52 weeks a year, surrounded by people who live very similarly. THAT becomes your reality.
I understand that I'm making broad generalizations and want to point out that not everyone's like this. But I'd say the majority are. Add in the constant paranoia and pressure and you've got a recipe for disaster.
So to say the storyline is just fantasy based in reality is to overlook all the "fantasy" that contributed to creating that "reality." And to introduce something like the Jeff Hardy storyline back into the person's world at all is to blur that line even more, to make that "reality" seem even less severe.
To involve Jeff Hardy in a storyline where he's "unconscious in a stairwell" is to disrespect and discredit all the people in wrestling -- Jeff included -- who've dealt with severe alcohol or substance issues, most either caused or enhanced by the wrestling business. And to me, casket matches are in poor enough taste now in an era of wrestlers not even reaching 40, but to involve Eddie Guerrero's widow in such a storyline is to say that those TRAGIC DEATHS are nothing but storyline fodder either.
I still watch Raw and SmackDown when I have time, and I love WWE 24-7, but I'll be honest, I haven't truly been able to truly enjoy wrestling since Chris Benoit died. Chris isn't the exception, he's the rule, and just dealt with things in a far more severe way than anyone else before him. Since then, every time I see a match, I wonder -- Is that the chair shot that will cause this man such trauma that he'll kill himself someday? Is this the suplex that will send this man on a path to a horrible dependence on painkillers? The innocence is lost. It's not fake. Not at all.
WWE has no issues continuing to make money off Eddie Guerrero, even with a new DVD out now. Perhaps the family has given their stamp of approval. And there's no doubt that fans LOVED Eddie and want to remember him fondly. And yes, Vickie has come into her own as a performer. But they can't have it both ways. And before you question my right as a fan to call the taste of WWE's storylines into question, balance that against the fact that WWE continues to make money off portraying this person as a legend out of one side of their mouth, while putting his widow into situations that make me wonder.
And the Jeff thing? It'd be one thing if substance abuse wasn't so widespread in wrestling, if a number of guys hadn't died from problems related to that very issue. And it'd be one thing if Jeff himself didn't have two strikes under WWE's bulls--t "wellness policy." But come on.
In the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you that during my time on creative, I pitched a storyline whereby Eddie Guerrero would fake a relapse to his substance-abusing ways and Chris Benoit would try to help him, and it would be revealed that it was all to set Benoit up.
Keep in mind, this was in the fall of 2002, before dozens of wrestlers really started dying, though it was concurrent with Eddie's getting over his addictions. And surprisingly, if memory serves, I was told they didn't want to do the storyline because it hit too close to home (I don't remember -- did they do anything like this with Eddie ever?)
Perhaps by having Vickie do the storyline, it makes WWE feel better about the whole Eddie thing, as if she's not as angry as she has a right to be.
Paul Heyman has a great blog post up right now on the UK Sun with his thoughts on the Jeff Hardy storyline, and he mentions a time when in a creative meeting, he made reference to WWE eating their turkey on the "back porch" -- a reference to how the company can be tremendously successful and still never earn the mainstream cred it so desperately seeks -- and how Vince blew up at him for saying so.
I was in that meeting and I remember it well. I agree with Paul, that WWE will never be what Vince envisions it being (which is Vince's greatest inner pain, by the way -- the fact that he's the king of wrestling but no matter what he does, he'll never be as mainstream as he wishes to be). And the Vickie and Jeff storylines are a big reason why that mainstream cred will never come -- there's just too much that crosses the line of good taste to ever let it climb that ladder.
Someone on the message board compared the Vickie storyline to Heath Ledger's character being in a bodybag in Batman. In the interest of full disclosure, I should tell you I didn't see the Dark Knight movie (it's just not my thing), but here's the difference -- Ledger was playing a character in a movie drawn out months before his tragic end. Eddie's tragic end happened years ago, and this was a storyline that in no way needed this to happen in order to move it forward.
Let me draw a legit comparison: Imagine Heath Ledger had a sister who suddenly got into movies. And imagine three years after his death, someone wrote a role for her where she would overdose on drugs and die. She might be the greatest actress in the world, but the timing of her debut combined with the storyline that had been written for her would give you pause, wouldn't it?
Again, my views on the Vickie and Jeff storylines are my OPINIONS. In NO WAY do I pretend to have a more noble viewpoint than Eddie's own widow.
But as a wrestling fan, I can choose to show my disgust with the storylines by not spending my money on the product being put before me. It's the same way I boycotted the WWE product the entire time the Mohammad Hassan character was on TV.
If you disagree, I respect that, and I'd like to hear your opinions. But I feel that the more we keep ignoring stuff like this, the more we're also desensitizing ourselves to things like the Chris Benoit tragedy.
No wonder the mainstream doesn't take wrestling or its fans seriously.
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Comments (44)
And your views on women's wrestling?
I get your ideas on the Vickie thing. I disagree with you, but I get them, and figured your logic was pretty much exactly what you described here. What you said that annoyed me was about women's wrestling.
If the characters in women's wrestling were better drawn out, more realistic depictions of female characters, then I would care. I thought the Trish-Mickie storyline when Mickie first came in was fantastic. But I haven't seen anything as of late that's been any more than a T&A fest. If that's your thing, great. And I respect the women as athletes. But until there's a storyline that depicts the women as more than just a little eye candy distraction for the men, I'm not interested. It's not an anti-women's wrestling thing; I feel the same way for the stupider men's storylines.
P.S. Like I said in my post, I think Vickie's done a great job with her character, and her character is definitely a compelling one. That being said though, when her character is stuffed into a casket, I think I have a right to be disgusted, especially considering what brought her to the dance.
a wrestling fan for more than 20 years now I often was somewhat appalled by the aberrations of vince's storylines. and there were even some I could not exuse.
still wrestling for me is such a welcome distraction from ordinary life that I kept ignoring the sometimes ugly business indications and the life-threatening struggle of wrestlers although I always knew.
until now. I just finished Bret Hart's book and along with this article I think it's time ways are changed. I've been working in the entertainment industry for 10 years now and I witnessed things getting totally out of hand in terms of exchanging quality content for hyper-shortsighted and short-range business targets.
I have never been quite able to put it into words like yours, Seth, but Vince's greatest pain about not being a centerpiece of US mainstream is the profound and simple truth behind these deranged storylines and - as you point out - ironically what will forever keep him away from it. wrestling is when the freaks come out at night. at least it still feels that way.
best from berlin, stb
"If the characters in women's wrestling were better drawn out, more realistic depictions of female characters, then I would care. I thought the Trish-Mickie storyline when Mickie first came in was fantastic. But I haven't seen anything as of late that's been any more than a T&A fest. If that's your thing, great."
WWE has abolished the "T&A" matches as they have not done a lingerie, bra and panties, pudding, or whatever in nearly a year. The Divas just have normal matches now, and their sexuality has been downplayed as the announcers have even been told to not say "puppies" or other overly sexual comments anymore during the women's matches.
Their biggest problem lately is WWE giving them such a short amount of time to work as a 4-to-5 minute Diva match on Raw or Smackdown is pretty rare, with some of their matches getting less than 2 minutes or recent shows. The matches are decent, especially the tag team matches, but there's just no way they can be great when they end almost as quickly as they started.
I completely agree with Seth on all counts. I haven't really been watching Smackdown as closely as I have in the past, but Vickie Guerrero is NOT hot and wouldn't be on TV if Eddie hadn't died. Now that we see where the Jeff Hardy/Edge/HHH storyline is headed, it's obviously that reporting that Hardy was 'unconscious' in a stairwell was completely unnecessary. As for diva's, Beth Phoenix has essentially been 1/2 of a comedy act (Glamerella) since winning the Women's Title at Summerslam. Seriously, what storyline has she been involved in that's unique to her title and doesn't include Santino? We need more than the absence of bra and panty matches to make the Women's Division more than "T&A." I'll still watch wrestling and find it entertaining after all this, but these storyline don't make it easier to convince my non-wrestling friends why I like it. And THAT will keep wrestling from being mainstream.
I agree with MOST everything Seth said. I spent most of my sunday (from when I first saw the Jeff Hardy news in the morning, until I got back on the computer at 6 o'clock) thinking that Jeff Hardy was fired for a 3rd strike, or even worse, DEAD. If the original story suggested foul play in Jeff's situation, then I would be OK with it, because ZI would not be fear for his LIFE.
I can't really comment on the Vicky Guerrero thing, because I do not get smackdown in my area.
I see no problem with WWE releasing a DVD, because Eddie was a popular wrestler, whom led a biographically friendly life (rebounding from drug addiction is an uplifting story), and he had tremendous matches. That is the trifecta for a WWE DVD. 3 years is long enough of a wait before making a DVD. The mr. Perfect DVD came out 6 years after his death, and I had been waiting for years for a Mr. Perfect DVD.
Lastly, while I hate the T&A (not TNA, T&A) womens matches WWE used to do, I have 2 gripes about the lack of them:
1. Now the "T&A girls" are put in situations where they look bad (wrestling matches). Before, they looked good, because they were showing off their impressive bodies).
2. When they did the T&A matches, they usually seemed to counterbalance that with a compelling story involving the ladies, which made for good WRESTLING entertainment.
If WWE were to go back to this formula of equal parts T&A and serious storylines, It would make for a better Womens division.
Agree with most of what you are saying Seth. I havent watched wrestling for more than a few minutes since the Benoit tragedy because I think similarly to you. I also was thinking of Hardy until it came out that the whole thing was a work.
Unfortunately people have become so desensitized that only extremes make an impact on people and keep them coming back and I dont see that changing.
The only thing I disagree with what you say above is are the "yes men" enablers to Vince creating the abomination that wrestling is today, or are we the fans the enablers to Vince forcing him to put out a product with such disturbing (to some) and disgusting (again to some) storylines?
Well said blog! However, I am sure I do not need to remind you about the Rey Mysterio storyline back in 2006. Now that was way over the line and you are talking about just months after he passed. One of the reasons why I am not an orton fan is because of the quote "Eddie is not up there, he is in hell!" did it for me. Sometimes I wonder why I watch wwe,but it is passed the era in which you could not miss a minute.
Point taken. I totally agree on the Hardy thing, and comparing the two I see your original point on Guerrero. Personally, I'm the guy who tries to move on from things completely once I've had time to heal, that's just my process. Honestly, I don't even remember what time of year Eddie died, for example. So when I see Vickie w/ caskets, ALL I'm thinking about is the storyline between her and the Undertaker. Obviously, not everyone sees things that way, and clearly many are going to make the connection. Even on the off chance that any of these events are simple oversights (and I'm sure it's intentional at least 99% of the time), it is still their responsibility to anticipate how things will be perceived by the audience, so they are indeed wrong either way.
Right on Seth, i agree with you totally the wwe has been in bad taste for many years now... since the shift from the in ring action to vocal entertainment the wwe has been adrift since...im sorry for all you diva fans but women's wrestling in wwe is an afterthought, it is quite obvious, (diva search???!!!) they do not train the female performers a fraction of the males. You can not say all women's wrestling is no good because the japanese females have been putting on quality matches for years, and TNA has an amazing knockout division. The WWE product lacks depth, and after the pyros and shiny sets all you are left with is a lackadaisical program. 95% of the wrestlers are outdated or have just foolish monikers. The cake taker for me personally was when RVD received a BRIEF push around the time HHH was pretending to be a horseman in evolution. HHH actually told Vince RVD did not connect with the fans (!!!)and Vince agreed and slowed RVD's title push from World to Intercontinental. Last time i checked RVD is ECW alum, connecting with the fans is what they do.
From a business standpoint how stupid are the McMahons, Stephanie marries and employee of the company and he is allowed to have creative input. I wonder who is going to get the huge push??? What will happen when this wrestler ibecomes tired and stale but still gets a say because he is the bosses favorite son in law. So sad is it the WWE pushes DX as being young and hip, im sorry shawn wont even look at naked chicks anymore and he is cool, pass the ovaltine as we read a puritan christmas with DX next segment. WEAK!!! and BOOO!!! are words i have heard fellow fans say as they watch the program. The matches end faster but at a slow pace??!!! So the idea is to make the wrestling so bad that i can not wait for Mike Adamle to ruin his lines or HHH and HBK do crotch chop #9867 while they peddle DX gear...
This sounds like a wrasslin company based in Georgia that had an owner who was out of touch too... i wonder how that worked out
Right on Seth, i agree with you totally the wwe has been in bad taste for many years now... since the shift from the in ring action to vocal entertainment the wwe has been adrift since...im sorry for all you diva fans but women's wrestling in wwe is an afterthought, it is quite obvious, (diva search???!!!) they do not train the female performers a fraction of the males. You can not say all women's wrestling is no good because the japanese females have been putting on quality matches for years, and TNA has an amazing knockout division. The WWE product lacks depth, and after the pyros and shiny sets all you are left with is a lackadaisical program. 95% of the wrestlers are outdated or have just foolish monikers. The cake taker for me personally was when RVD received a BRIEF push around the time HHH was pretending to be a horseman in evolution. HHH actually told Vince RVD did not connect with the fans (!!!)and Vince agreed and slowed RVD's title push from World to Intercontinental. Last time i checked RVD is ECW alum, connecting with the fans is what they do.
From a business standpoint how stupid are the McMahons, Stephanie marries and employee of the company and he is allowed to have creative input. I wonder who is going to get the huge push??? What will happen when this wrestler becomes tired and stale but still gets a say because he is the bosses favorite son in law. So sad is it the WWE pushes DX as being young and hip, im sorry shawn wont even look at naked chicks anymore and he is cool, pass the ovaltine as we read a puritan christmas with DX next segment. WEAK!!! and BOOO!!! are words i have heard fellow fans say as they watch the program. The matches end faster but at a slow pace??!!! So the idea is to make the wrestling so bad that i can not wait for Mike Adamle to ruin his lines or HHH and HBK do crotch chop #9867 while they peddle DX gear...
This sounds like a wrasslin company based in Georgia that had an owner who was out of touch too... i wonder how that worked out
Agree with everything Seth, and these are among the reasons I don't watch anymore. And on the Vicki thing- not only is her being put in the casket in bad taste, but does anyone really want to see a casket match? Other than HBK vs. Taker, can anyone think of one that was remotely good?
Actually, Seth, there was a storyline with Eddie Guerrero either before his championship title run or after his title run. I remember it well. Chavo kept accusing him of falling back into his addiction, and he and Eddie had this pseudoface-pseudoface feud where Chavo kept trying to get Eddie to admit to his problems. I can't remember if Rey Mysterio ended up being involved or not. In any case, while the angle you pitched wasn't accepted, a variant of it ended up taking place anyways. Just thought I'd let you know. Great blogs, keep 'em coming and I'll keep reathing them!
Actually, Seth, there was a storyline with Eddie Guerrero either before his championship title run or after his title run. I remember it well. Chavo kept accusing him of falling back into his addiction, and he and Eddie had this pseudoface-pseudoface feud where Chavo kept trying to get Eddie to admit to his problems. I can't remember if Rey Mysterio ended up being involved or not. In any case, while the angle you pitched wasn't accepted, a variant of it ended up taking place anyways. Just thought I'd let you know. Great blogs, keep 'em coming and I'll keep reathing them!
i agree completely, but the wwe is just a mess in almost every aspect there are very few real wrestlers working there, the company is mostly made up of actors and porn stars, the womens division is a joke but i think there is a problum with womens wrestling in the wwe and tna because you have the "knockouts" and the "divas" why? they are just women i personaly think that makes it a little hard to take the divisions seriously because look at it this way you don't call the men hung hunks lol like c'mon lets have a womens world championship and a real womens division, don't get me wrong i think tna has some great women wrestlers but the "knockout" title that they put on there women sounds a little more novelty to me
wwe sucks!!!! The only storylines they have now is over the wwe and world title. Wrestling was great when wwf had dx the corporation and the storylines they had then. That jeff hardy storyline was fucked up they had people thinking if jeff was really hurt. And to make it worst three years ago around this time Eddie was found in a hotel unconcious. The wwe hasve been taking a bunch of cheap shots at eddie and his death. I mean wtf why the hell would you put eddie's wife in a casket so close to the anniversity of his death...... Fuck wwe
TNA!TNA!TNA!TNA!TNA!TNA!
Seth, I was the one who pointed out the Heath Ledger thing and the editors and directors of the movie could have removed the scene had they viewed it as being in poor taste. The thing is, this isn't Randy Orton saying that Eddie is burning in hell, this is just Taker doing what he has done to DOZENS of people. Its not like she was the first person shoved into a casket. I can see the outrage and annoyance with the Jeff Hardy angle, that one makes sense to me. What I can't grasp is the fact that 3 years after the fact, people are still acting like Eddie died last month. There comes a point where people have to move on. Vicki has (I can't remember where I read it, but she is dating someone outside of the wrestling world), his family has, yet wrestling fans, most of whom didn't even know the man, can't let it go.
Here is an idea, you want Vince to stop using Eddie? Stop chanting his name when Chavo does any of Eddie's old signature moves.
Its like the Montreal screw job, Vince milked it as long as people chanted "You screwed Bret" at Earl Hebner.
Look, I get the fact that you used to work for the WWE so you have a different view on things, but the more I read the stuff that you and Paul Heyman write, the more you guys just come off as bitter ex-employees. Like Vince didn't like your ideas, or whatever, so lets trash them as much as we can. Seriously, when is the last time you did a post where you didn't criticize or offer a back handed compliment to them? Im thinking it was the Flair retirement...
You say you hardly watch anymore, so then why do you offer half assed predictions based on a product you have no knowledge of anymore? Why don't you simply post old stories? This is why you seem to come off as a bitter ex employee.
Sorry for the rant, just had a lot on my mind
When I read about the Jeff Hardy situation, I immediately assumed it was an angle. One of their performers, especially a lead performer, being found unconscious in a hotel stairway (or where ever he was found in kayfabe) is not something WWE would ever publicize.
Can you imagine WWE putting a headline up that Triple H was found unconscious and needed medical attention and have it be legitimate in this business?
In my opinion, the deal with Hardy was to intentionally get fans to think that he may have actually OD'd since he has a history of drug problems. Matt Hardy actually commenting on the story only made it more obvious. It was WWE exploiting Hardy's history to get fans to do one thing: buy Survivor Series to see if Jeff would actually make the match.
I'm not as offended as most fans are, I'm used to things like this from WWE. But I think the Vicky Guerrero angle was definitely in poor taste. I mean I dont understand why WWE continues to use Eddie Guerrero's death to push storyline's like when Orton "killed" the Undertaker with Eddie's Lowrider several years ago and now this. I remember when Eddie died Vince McMahon and Chavo Guerrero held a press conference for the media and Vince said that the Guerrero family would "be taken care of for life" I just assumed that WWE would continue to pay Eddie's family his salary to keep them secure. But I guess there is no free lunch in WWE and Vicky will have to get humilated like the rest of the bunch.
I'm also with you Seth, I havent been able to truly enjoy WWE since Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit died. I was at Wrestlemania 20 when they won the main events and (or at least I thought) represented the new guard in WWE. But both of their deaths within 3 years of the event has only made the memory of them of them, arm and arm, with their championships in the air at the conclusion of the show a sad memory. I only follow wrestling through the internet now.
The WWE is nothing more than just wrestling fans tuning in to watch it out of habbit.
Vince needs to change many things.
1- Forget the RAW vs Smackdown roster, bring them all back together, and have ONE champ.
We see the same fights week in and week out. The internet does not help matters by posting up the spoilers what so ever. Kinda like what Bischoff used to do with WCW vs WWE days.
But back to my point, Vince needs to get back to basics. Bring in talent thats GOOD and has good skills all around. Make it fun and interesting as you once did. And remember that fans are not dumb, we know that its fake, and we also know what we like.
Damn i guess the WWE Universe wont leave this alone. Seth I love reading all of your articles and dont think you come off as a bitter ex employee. Whats wrong with making predictions? Its just a guess on what Seth would like to see happen.
Hussein- The DX promo on Monday was absolute gold in my opinion. The only problem I had with it was that HHH wasnt on the card. I have actually come to respect this guy over the last few months during his fued with Hardy. Shawn is a born again Christian and it goes over with his real life image well. Besides i dont think his wife would like hime looking at naked women, and who thinks she was really naked?
I was wondering why you think the wellness policy is b***s***. I'm not arguing it isn't, I was just wondering why someone in the know thinks it is. Additionally, how would you fix it?
JBL made his fortune in the stock market. The WWE added that to his character. Shawn Michaels found Jesus. The WWE added that to his character. The Rock became a movie star. The WWE added that to his character. Matt Hardy's girlfriend slept with Edge, and that was added to all three of their characters. In the Internet age the WWE has set a precedent that they will use general knowledge of a wrestler's personal life to achieve heat. It made me roll my eyes that they used this storyline with Jeff, but maybe he shouldn't be drinking so much he's not allowed to fly home if he wants everyone to forget he's a drug addict with a history of personal problems. I realize that the reason he uses these drugs is because of the injuries he sustained and the lifestyle he was introduced to while in the WWE, but we all need to grow up sometime.
You know what's more dangerous for Jeff Hardy than his company making up a storyline where he may or may not be on drugs? His company telling Jeff Hardy, an employee with a history of abusing pain medications, to jump of a huge ladder onto the Undertaker, to jump off a huge ladder onto Edge, to continue doing the dumb, now unnecessary spots where he's likely to hurt himself in ways where he can still perform, just in pain. I'm not calling a return to matches with 10 minute headlocks, but maybe you can suggest to your pain killer guy not to go jumping off 15 foot ladders anymore.
There's this ROH wrestler named Davey Richards. I went to a show shortly after the murders/suicide and was shocked when the crowd chanted Benoit at him. He had a similar ring attire, hit similar moves. I am more offended by Koslov's winning move of ramming his head into his opponent's body than I am by Davey Richard's tribute to Benoit, because it was unprotected and stupid attacks with his his head that gave Benoit all those concussions.
Storyline wise, everyone involved is an adult getting paid well for their usually poor acting. Maybe someone should tell Koslov to be careful with his head.
how to fix wwe-
1. dont under any circumstances change the brand split. if you bring in all the talent to one show, you have the problem of fitting everyone on a card that is only 2 hours long. I like seeing Kofi/Punk on Raw, without the brand split you wouldnt be seeing these guys alot if at all. HHH, Cena, Orton, HBK, Jericho, JBL would get all the tv time.
2. fire all the divas. TNA's knockout division is way better than WWE's divas. And TNA only has a handfull of women. When WWE can hold a 16 diva tag match there are issues. I didnt know half of the women in there and most of them belong in Maxim or Playboy not in a ring. Keep 5 or 6 and use one or two as valets. As a matter of fact fire Kozlov, Khali, kendrick, and batista.
3. Parody, I cant stand having the same guys in the big matches all the time. If you give them more time in big money situations the fans would love it and respond to it positively.
4. Establish a ranking system. I remember when the IC Champ was number one contender. That was it wouldnt be random people getting title shots at different titles.
5. Establish a tag division. I remember when tag teams fought other tag teams. Not just four guys thrown into a match to get tv time. Look at Bret and Shawn, two great wrestlers who started off teaming with other people, slowly building up their greatness.
6. Bring back the managers. Now not everyone needs one but it would be great to see a new Bobby the Brain come along and manage slew of wrestlers for years to come.
7. Cut out all the talking, I understand the importance of a promo, but does everyone deserve one before there match? And maybe restrict some of the comedy. I like some of there comedy but the HBK/Rey promo with them walking to the ring was useless.
8. Hire Austin to run Raw. Austin equals ratings regardless if he is a face or heel. Raw ratings would have spiked leading up to cyber sunday. When he was co GM he did a fantastic job.
9. And lastly this is something Vince will never do but bring back bischoff and heyman. they know wrestling and do it good
Great post...
I would like to know why you boycotted the Mohammad Hassan character. I thought alot of his promos really stirred up alot of talk, but I don't think they were offensive.
What was really interesting was how the fans turned on them, showing that the characters were not the ignorant ones with hate, but the fans were. The fans were basically proving everything Mohammad and Diavari said was right... at least, what I could understand...
Unless I'm remembering something different?
-Omar
I thought the Hassan character was brilliant. Here was a guy who started out in his vignettes acting like a face. The entire "I want to prove that not all arabs are evil thing". As they went on, and he kept being "held down and judged" he became more and more bitter. The really funny thing is that he ended up becoming a self fufilled prophecy as the WB didn't want the character on Smackdown anymore simply because he was an arab. His best promo was the one ripping on a tv critic referring to him as a terrorist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_CEQRzm3IE
I disagree, but they are only your opinions.
Personally, I thought them putting 'WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR TONIGHT'S MATCH AT SURVIVOR SERIES???' would have been the disclaimer that it wasn't infact real, but there ya go.
As for Vickie, I really don't see the problem with this. Where as with Jeff, they clearly did want to play on his problems (not that I have a problem with it, since it generated huge buzz, which was the intention, I don't really care about ethics when it comes to my entertainment) but with Vickie they clearly don't want you to think 'OMG THEY ARE STUFFING HER INTO A CASKET JUST LIKE WHERE EDDIE IS NOW!!!'. It's totally disconnected, so therefore if Vickie isn't sensitive to it then it's fine.
If you're sensitive to the Jeff thing then I can see where you're coming from, but personally I loved it. That's just a taste thing, but there is no 'right' and 'wrong', only what interest Vince gets into his product. And he succeeded.
Since we are talking about backstage happenings and gimmicks and subliminal messages of death...lets bring up some more obvious things. What about the blatant racism that haunts the industry? (Okay I know...race card on everything, black president, blah blah blah) . Am I to realistically watch WWE and think that HHH was better than Booker T? (and HHH once called Booker 'hit or miss'...what a joke) What is the rationale for Shelton Benjamin gettn no (world) title shots being when he performs more fluidly than Jeff (ur Matt) Hardy? Is the live/television audience missing something? To be blunt how can African Americans win world chanpionships in every sport...but not pro wrestling? I guess my point is y are some things in the business are supposed to be touted as 'believable' and some are not? Help me out here.
I have watched wrestling for over 20 years, and with watching old WWE footage, and old footage on you-tube from the 80's with WWF, NWA, Mid-South, etc, I have come to the conclusion wrestling was so much better overall in those days. Now I am so sick of WWE universe, Sports entertainment, entertainment, etc, etc. Vince should just accept he is a WRESTLING promoter, and do the best he can with it. Today's characters have no depth, all seem the same, non believeable promos, and why get interested into anyone because within weeks they will be jobber status again ( see CM Punk ). HHH puts me to sleep, HBK is a nerd, Batista seems one dimensional, Jericho is already stale, Kane is beyond stale, John Cena is OK but he is more for kids and women and they write interviews for him to kiss fans butts too much, Undertaker has been around for 100 years it seems, Orton is about the only one who seems fresh and stands out. It has become a chore to watch Raw on mondays, and I usually skip Friday's. Lately I enjoy TNA wrestling more, for all the bad booking there is still some mildly entertaining stuff.
"there is no 'right' and 'wrong', only what interest Vince gets into his product. And he succeeded."
Success = AOL.com running the story for 20 minutes? Whatever you say, boss. Doesn't look like it helped the old WWE stock, unfortunately.
"I don't really care about ethics when it comes to my entertainment"
And therein lies the problem. Vince obviously doesn't care either, so I guess you're in good company.
God Bless America, and the moral lapses of her consumers. It continues to make quality WWE programming (such as Eddie Guerrero's widow in a casket) possible. I have never been so entertained in my goddamn life.
God there really are some strange comments in this thread.
The ways to fix WWE one was especially hilarious. The problem with the WWE is that it no longer had the mainstream appeal it did in the 2 booms, so you want to cut out the talking, and establish a ranking system? This is meant to cure their problems? Uhhhhhh-huh.
And only a few months ago the internet was awash with people saying that Jericho was always held back by the company, that he deserved his chance as a bona fide main eventer. And now all of a sudden, after a couple of months of being a bona fide main eventer, he's one of the people that we 'always see at the top'. Well yes, that is the point of main eventers.
And there's another asking why Shelton hasn't had a look in? I like the guy, but he's lucky he got into the scramble. It's called crowd reaction mate, he doesn't have it to a main event level yet. Quite simple.
Oooooh and apparently there are no storylines. Despite the wrestling world being split down the middle on their OPINION OF A STORYLINE. Oh yeah, and it's a good thing Jericho and HBK never got to feud right? What an awful storyline that would have been.
There's plenty more I could have debunked, and it's like a flipping school playground in here. Embarrising.
"Embarrising" is embarassing.
And Seth Mates is one of the most intelligent commentators on pro wrestling out there, who could be sleeping or working at his real job but instead is sharing his thoughts based on experience that any of the people who read this blog just to add snarky remarks would KILL for. I, for one, look forward to these columns, as well as Paul Heyman's and Lance Storm's. These people actually know what they are talking about.
Thank you, Seth. And I totally agree with you, by the way. I haven't been able to watch wrestling regularly for years, really (since the unbelievable HHH levels of 2002), but every time I try, I get disgusted by something else. The Kurt Angles and Shawn Michaels and Chris Jerichos make it worth the effort to start watching the show, but the bad acting and the morbid storylines and sexist/racist characterisations just force me to turn it off.
Why isn't it possible for wrestling to be halfway intelligent, or at least not incredibly insulting? If anyone knows the answer, it's you, Seth. Please fill us in ...
"Embarrising" is embarrassing.
And Seth Mates is one of the most intelligent commentators on pro wrestling out there, who could be sleeping or working at his real job but instead is sharing his thoughts based on experience that any of the people who read this blog just to add snarky remarks would KILL for. I, for one, look forward to these columns, as well as Paul Heyman's and Lance Storm's. These people actually know what they are talking about.
Thank you, Seth. And I totally agree with you, by the way. I haven't been able to watch wrestling regularly for years, really (since the unbelievable HHH levels of 2002), but every time I try, I get disgusted by something else. The Kurt Angles and Shawn Michaels and Chris Jerichos make it worth the effort to start watching the show, but the bad acting and the morbid storylines and sexist/racist characterisations just force me to turn it off.
Why isn't it possible for wrestling to be halfway intelligent, or at least not incredibly insulting? If anyone knows the answer, it's you, Seth. Please fill us in ...
i agree with what you say Seth the thing with vince is he is in a sinking ship so dirty underhanded tactics is what he has to stoop to.Vince does not care of what the fans think he wants what he wants and screw what we think.I believe it is in bad taste for vickie to be thrown into a casket so close to eddies anniversary.I think Vickie is to blame as well because she could have said no.but of course she did not because after all she just thinking about that money.think about it with eddie gone she is not getting paid like before and its true if not for eddie the world would not even know about her so she has to move into eddies spotlight.the whole edge vickie angle still sickens me till this day.come on edge and vickie?only in wwe would this be believable the edge character is only using vickie to get to the top just like vince is using the vickie character to get more money.think about this from lita to vickie,Yeah right!,nice one vince.its sad that you have to lead people on just to entice people to watch your program.but what do you expect from a billionaire he just wants more money and more ratings, if he really wants more money and ratings he should try firing all of those bums that he currently has working for him like cm punk hes a joke or john cena another bum or how about the miz come on you cant be serious.how is it that benoit was with the company for just about seven years and he only had the title once and then you have cm punk a two time champion its thing like that that make me turn off the tv
I really can't complain about how Jericho has been used these past few months. I love him as a heel and think he really deserved this last championship push. As much as I love CM Punk I think he will fare much better as a high mid carder (I predict him to win the IC tourney) I will keep tuning into Raw so long as Miz and Morrison are on each week and I continue to enjoy the development of Cody Rhodes. I like the fact that he is developing heel and not doing some cheesy knock off American Dream gimmick.
As someone who has had a history of substance abuse I find nothing wrong with the Jeff Hardy angel. I have been hospitalized, in and out of recovery facilities, and in 12 step rooms. I have surrounded my self with this subject and refuse to let something like a wrestling angle upset me when there are far more pressing issues pertaining to this matter. If displays of substance abuse get you folks all riled up (which this wasn't was) then you wouldn't watch Pulp Fiction, Requiem for a Dream, Trainspotting, Panic in Needle Park, etc.
I don't get people who say that the wrestling product now is inferior to what it was in the 90s... the Attitude Era (the last boom) ratcheted the sex and violence up to 11. There was a good bit of quality wrestling, but that wasn't the reason for its success - it succeeded by taking refuge in audacity.
80s wrestling's in-ring product was, more often than not, godawful by today's standards. Long rest-holds and huge people running clumsily into each other made up most of it, and the matches between people with real talent were still inferior to what we have today - our great talents today have learned the best of what those guys did, and added more. Marty Jannetty was awesome, but compared to Eddie Guerrero or Rey Mysterio? Almost pedestrian.
There's a lot of bad on today's wrestling product, but when it shines - which is much more often than it's given credit for - it blows the past out of the water.
As for the Benoit bit... they ARE doing less things that put them at risk of head injuries. I don't know of anyone who does diving headbutts, for example. I too have trouble watching old Benoit matches, but not with watching the current product.
As long as there are asses in the arena seats Vince and WWE will continue doing what they do.
Although I understand why people would, I don't personally take any offence from Taker putting Vickie in a casket. It's what Taker does and if Vickie was happy to do it then fair enough.
And just a point on making money from Eddie by bringing out the dvd. If they hadn't brought out a dvd about Eddie's career i'm sure you would be up in arms about it. You can't have it both ways.
The Jeff Hardy thing is a strange one though. I hadn't heard anything about it until people started complaining. If I had read the story on WWE's site, I wouldn't have assumed it was anything other than a storyline. I really don't think they would put info like that on their site until they knew what was going on.
But look at the reaction. What purpose would this stunt have served other than to get people talking. Mission accomplished.
It's a cliche but if you don't like it, don't watch it. If ratings and attendance to live shows stay consistant they will only ever believe they are getting things right.
I read the story on wwe.com; figured it was going to be a storyline and that he was "attacked at the hotel." Good writing can't happen under constant fear of people reading the wrong thing into it, and mediocre writing created under that fear becomes bad writing.
"Good writing can't happen under constant fear of people reading the wrong thing into it"
Yeah, and that's EXACTLY what happened here. You should have seen what they were gonna do, until they chickened out, for fear of upsetting people. *facepalm*
"And just a point on making money from Eddie by bringing out the dvd. If they hadn't brought out a dvd about Eddie's career I'm sure you would be up in arms about it."
No, it's probably more the fact that WWE had to make a tribute-style DVD for a guy who was died in his 40's, not too long ago. This isn't Verne Gagne, or someone else who's at the tribute DVD stage of their career, it was a tragedy. The fact that these people (WWE) basically own all record of Eddie's career is more than a little depressing.
"If displays of substance abuse get you folks all riled up (which this wasn't was) then you wouldn't watch Pulp Fiction, Requiem for a Dream, Trainspotting, Panic in Needle Park, etc."
Missing the point. It's not the "display" that's the pisser, it's the fact that a company at least partially liable in the premature deaths of their employees would think it was a good idea to "cry wolf" with not only fans but the mainstream media as well. That is a straight up jackass move, on every level.
"Oooooh and apparently there are no storylines. Despite the wrestling world being split down the middle on their OPINION OF A STORYLINE."
There's a difference between "OPINION OF A STORYLINE" and debating the fact that writers of said storyline lack the critical faculties to differentiate between getting attention for the right reasons and getting attention for being a pile of douchebags.
Bit of a difference.
Like I said, WWE can obviously rest safe in the knowledge that their target audience does not consider ethics in entertainment an issue. Keep buyin' those PPV's, kids.
I can see a connection between those two storylines, but I am not sure I believe it is more than a coincidence.
I will agree with Seth on several points...
1) Fans are "enablers." Their acceptance of the most ludicrous storylines and willingness to stick with bad ideas to see how they play out directly leads to WWE having a "free pass" out of the standards of regular decency, which in turn alienates the vast majority - because wrestling fans are a small percentage of society. We learned that in 1992 when the steroids & sex scandals had minimal impact on business after making a few minor adjustments to the product.
2) If WWE wanted to cause a stir before Survivor Series, which has built a reputation for screwjobs since 1997, then placing a regular character like Vickie Guerrero in a casket was not enough, but "going back to the drawing board" and putting its most unanimously popular wrestler in a shock angle did. I doubt the decision process was as black-and-white as that description since there are a number of people working in WWE and many ideas being thrown around, but it reminds me of the Montreal Screwjob. My first thought on that situation was that the WWF was *TRYING* to cause a riot. Montreal had a riot in 1993 when the Canadiens won the Stanley Cup, and then Vancouver had a riot in 1994 when the Canucks lost Game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. A riot in Canada, reinforcing the fact that they really care about hockey & wrestling, would have generated national coverage, shifting attention away from WCW. Keep in mind, the week after the Montreal Screwjob, the WWF reported (which sounded like bragging to me) that DX had caused riots in both Memphis, TN, and Little Rock, AR.
3) Wrestling fans can speak their minds with their wallets. I think everyone agrees with that form of democracy as a reality, but in turn, majority rules. If the majority of wrestling fans are not outraged by insensitive storylines with family members of deceased wrestlers, or if they are not offended by "crying wolf" on the website, then WWE can do it. The problem comes if they alienate so many minorities (ala, those offended by either aforementioned category) that the remaining "majority" is too small to keep WWE in business. If you look at old footage of wrestling matches, you can see that the crowd is affluent. Men are wearing suits, women are in dresses, and the gender split is more or less what you see at regular sporting events today. Presumably, these people stopped following wrestling over the course of years, probably when the knowledge of its performance art became more widely known. Any chance of bringing them back are long gone.
The problem is that the second point is just a conspiracy theory (I doubt the Jeff Hardy story had anything to do with Undertaker's actions) and the third point is hypothetical (since WWE monitors its income to determine what worked and what did not). That leaves us with the first point, and WWE rarely crosses the line. Their aim is to get right in the middle, so half of the fans will be outraged and the other half is dumbfounded that the first half is complaining, and then those two halves engage in discussions (or arguments) about it. The Jeff Hardy angle was probably right on the mark since we sound almost evenly split.
Anyway, the post in the Survivor Series predictions called putting Vickie Guerrero in a casket "one of the most classless things (you) have ever seen on WWE programming." After reading this post, I am not sure I understand how Seth's issues against it reach that degree. Unless he just does not remember the Big Boss Man's feuds in 1999 with Al Snow (in which he fed Snow's beloved dog to him) or Big Show (in which he drove off with his father's casket during the funeral).
Hang on .... Is Eddie Guerrero's death being compared to the time Big Bossman ate Al Snow's DOG?
Really?
It would be funny, if it weren't so deeply, deeply sad. Pepper and Eddie, both gone too soon. Pardon me while I beat my head into the wall for the next 3 hours. And then throw up.
You're welcome for the laugh, but the Big Boss Man reference was to illustrate a statment made in the original post: "Wrestling isn't really known for high class programming."
It's not known for high-class programming. But a bad comedy storyline about a guy eating a dog isn't a fair comparison to a storyline preying off a guy who DIED in your company.
That's the point, what you saw on Friday Night Smackdown! was by no means "a storyline preying off a guy who died (while employed by) the company." I will gladly admit that WWE has done that with Eddie already, but I haven't seen it lately.
This was a storyline between two top characters: one with death as his gimmick for almost 20 years, and another portrayed by Eddie Guerrero's real-life widow (which hasn't been part of her character in over 10 months). It's not an act of blurring reality and fantasy, it's just broadening the character to be more flexible.
If we want to compromise, we could say WWE might have been testing the fans to see if they view Vickie (I don't know if they still call her "Vickie Guerrero") as Eddie's widow or as Edge's wife.
With all due respect Seth I agreed with
every point you made, until you said you boycotted
WWE because of the M. Hassan character being on TV.
WWE has, does, and always will use generic stereotypes of other races, sexes and certasinly nationalities. In the same way
that the Iron Sheik and Yokozuna characters generated heat (the cheapest heat possible) WWE will always cast certain people in a certain way.
Cryme Tyme for example, are clearly a tribute to the 'hustler' black image. William Regal is from Blackpool in England, which is a quite run-down area, yet he talks like Pip from South Park. Also you can guarantee that if Britain were to go to war with America tomorrow, he would become a mian event heel.
In a country as patriotic as America having a heel disrespect your values is something that will always happen because it's easy.
Mohammed Hassan (Matt Copani) was simply filling that role and interacting at Wrestlemania with Hogan in the process. Sure it was in bad taste, but so are the sexist diva matches, cryme tyme's angle, and if you want to get technical even Kai-en-Tai's INDEED voice over was a mockery of their culture.
I remember an uproar when wwe aired a smackdown taping in accordance with London's 7/7 bombing's. But it was purely a coincidence.
On another note, i never really thought of it at the time, but i think Benoit's death could also have something to do with my love for WWE waining too. Thanks.