"Unforgiven" Thoughts
Since the idea for the championship “Scramble” match was announced, I said I’d wait until after last night’s Unforgiven to render my verdict on whether was a good one or not.
It’s not.
In fact, I probably could have told you that much a lot earlier, if I had completely understood the rules of the match beforehand. As some of you noticed, I incorrectly was under the impression that for a wrestler to win the interim championship in the match, he’d have to pin the last person to hold it. That would have made a little bit of sense. Silly me.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed a lot of the action in last night’s scramble matches, but just because the wrestlers and bookers were able to deliver entertaining matches doesn’t mean that the concept worked. On the contrary, I mostly enjoyed the matches in spite of the convoluted, distracting, stipulation, not because of it.
As I feared, the biggest problem with the match is the damage it did to the integrity of the WWE titles at stake – not just because of the outcome of the matches, but because of the haphazard way they were treated in the scrambles.
In case you missed Jim Ross saying as much, somehow Triple H is now apparently being recognized as a 13-time world champion. I’m not sure how that could be, as we were told that none of the title changes during the 20-minute matches would count and that only the last man to have scored a win before the time limit expired would be recognized officially as the champion. So, the way I’d figure it, Triple H simply retained his title. But somehow, WWE is reasoning that this counts as a separate reign. Leave it to Triple H to figure out a way to win another world title without actually ever having lost it.
And whether they counted or not, the numerous world title victories and announcements of wrestlers being the “current” title holder, also served to hurt the championships. World title changes should be monumental, not occurrences that can happen a half dozen times in 20 minutes, and get all of three-seconds worth of attention and an obnoxious buzzer sound. I still get chills whenever I watch an old world title change on tape and hear Howard Finkel’s booming voice proclaim, “The winner of this match… and NEW World Wrestling Federation Heavyweight Champion.” The cavalier treatment of the titles last night was a big turn off, and did something to dampen the wins of Matt Hardy and Chris Jericho.
Hardy’s win in particular showcased the problem with the match. Rather than hearing the bell ring and crowd pop as soon as the ref’s hand came down with a three-count, Hardy scored his winning pinfall minutes before the final bell, and then just awkwardly killed time until the clock expired. The crowd's reaction wasn’t nearly as excited as it could have been.
The other major problem in the logic of the scramble matches is that pretty much nothing that happens for the first 19 or so minutes in the match matters. At least in other multi-pinfall matches, such as Survivor Series-style elimination matches or Iron Man matches, the various pinfalls and submissions throughout the match factor into the ultimate outcome. Here, somebody would score a pinfall, become “current world champion” and it would be rendered completely moot just moments later.
Yes, the scramble concept made for some compelling moments, such as Triple H scoring a pinfall to hold onto his title only two seconds ahead of Jeff Hardy doing the same, and the controversial finish in the Raw main event. I don’t mind if the concept is brought back on occasion, but it definitely needs some fine tuning, and should be kept to a very rare novelty match.
As for some of the other news of the night: Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho most certainly did not disappoint in their much-anticipated unsanctioned match. It was a phenomenally dramatic brawl, with a satisfying finish of the referee stopping the match due to Michaels’ brutality. I wish they hadn’t done some of the hokey table spots, which broke from the believable intensity of the fight, but it’s a relatively minor complaint. The majority of the action had the realistic violence that the match called for, including Michaels strangling Jericho and pummeling him with his fists until he was unconscious - and beyong. Both men played their roles tremendously well. And, as always, Michaels came through like a champ, even while battling a triceps injury.
And just when you thought the Michaels-Jericho storyline couldn’t get any more interesting, we got the finish of the night’s main event. After Randy Orton and his new stable of second generation superstars took out C.M. Punk, Raw GM Mike Adamle effectively stripped Punk of the world heavyweight championship and put it up for grabs in the Raw scramble match. What’s more, Jericho was added as a last minute-replacement, and went on to win the world heavyweight championship.
I have mixed feelings on the title change. I’m a little sad that the Punk experiment is over for now, but in the end, he did get a three-month world title reign years before most people would have predicted, and honestly, at least a year before he had earned it. Punk undoubtedly ended his title reign stronger and more valuable to WWE than he began it – as evidenced by his forthcoming feud with arguably WWE’s top heel Randy Orton. He can also claim never to have lost the title in the ring, although I kind of wish he did. stripped from him. Why would Adamle essentially punish Punk for being unfairly attacked backstage?
As for Jericho, I think he makes for a tremendous world heavyweight champion. I love that, even after being destroyed by Michaels earlier in the night, Jericho got the last laugh by leaving the building with the world title in tow. Now that’s a heel.
The night’s other big segment involving the Undertaker, Vickie Guerrero and the Big Show was something of a train wreck – and an excruciatingly long one at that. You could see the writing on the wall that Show was going to double cross Taker a mile away. For the life of me, I don’t know why this segment was dragged out as agonizingly long as it was. It cut the main event several minutes short and was completely unnecessary. The same story could have been told in a third of the time.
Also, for the record, I'd like to see WWE settle into a lengthy world title reigns on the Raw brand. I really enjoyed how Cena's last reign was treated. He went over a year with the belt, beating everyone along the way and brining some prestige back into the world title. Now, the world heavyweight championship has changed hands six times since January.
Jericho should be a fine champion. Here's hoping he's given plenty of time to prove it.
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Comments (25)
Jim Ross screwed up. Triple H is still a 12-time champion as the WWE title history on WWE.com still lists him as being the champion since April, while the ECW title and World title histories have been updated to include Matt Hardy and Chris Jericho.
The concept of the "Scramble" matches is awesome! But I will say that I think the "Championship Scramble" matches and the whole idea of the potential (i.e. interim) champions can be quite problematic.
I would love to see future "Scramble" matches, but I would prefer them as vehicles to determine the number-one contender for any championship, instead of the championship itself.
Um, not to be a dick, but the 'Taker/Big Show segment couldn't have 'cut the main event a few minutes short', it had a 20-minute time limit.
Kay: To have a scramble match set up the number one contender for the belt is a great idea! I wish they would have done that with the Raw title last night, instead of Punk not even being given a chance to defend his title. That way, Jericho would get a shot at next month's PPV and many people wouldn't be as pissed off at the way Punk lost the title.
That's just it. It wasn't any 20 minutes. As Dave Meltzer mentioned, Kane came in before the four minute mark, and Rey Mysterio was in at before 8:00. I'd be surprised if the match went 15 minutes.
I liked the scramble match overall, but the action was slow to start out. I actually thought the ECW title match had the most action. I was really rooting for Brian Kendrick, who had a great showing until you know who came in and he had to job to you know who twice. Not that I am bitter or anything, but to me besides Jericho, he was the story of the night.
Speaking of Jericho, I am excited b/c it has been almost seven years since his last world title win and he was booked just as bad as Punk was then. I hope he is booked strong here and culminate into Michaels/Jericho match down the road. I guess reinventing his character paid off. Good for him!
Lastly, Shawn Michaels has made a step up in my top 10 greatest ever. The guy even with that injury is still the top performer in the game.
The last Scramble match went 17:50. So they clearly had to cut over 2 minutes because of the Show/Taker segment.
The scramble matches were worth a shot. Everyone complains about how WWE doesn't experiment enough but they tried something different at least. I agree with your thoughts that the structure is too convoluted, and if that's the general feeling all it means is that they'll abandon this type of match and come up with something else.
Yup, I just knew after watching an entertaining show that the internet would be nit picky about it. It's like this right across the forums. I'm not going to get pissy, because it's very much your opinion, but damn...chill out. Sit back and just watch a wrestling show.
Damage was not done to the titles whatsoever. Current champion did not = new champion until the time limit was over. If it was said, it was wrong. Kendrick is not now a former WWE champion. You needn't worry about value.
(But of course, HHH engineered the whole concept to make himself look like he had one extra reign, because that is all he cares about, in the middle of having a second child and his mentor passing away...yeah)
Why does nothing in the first 19 minutes matter? Why wouldn't a wrestler want to score a quick win and try and hold on, safe in the knowledge that he just doesn't have to let a pin happen, instead of chancing his luck, and praying he gets one in the final moments?
Adamle wasn't punishing Punk, he was giving the fans a match. He has no allegance either way.
As for the Show segment, it went on that long to really drill home the point that Big Show was heel...to build heat. Heat comes with how much time you devote to something. It's why a wrestler will sometimes just stand in the middle of the ring, staring at the crowd and not saying a word. Could they cut it out? Of course. It's brilliant heat though, so they don't. At first the crowd was silent during that segment, they had to get it to build up to them booing Big Show and cheering for Taker, and they did.
i think the whole "interim champion" is whats throwing people off as far as title reigns r concerned. i think the next time they do a scramble they need to stop referring to that. they also needed for time to explain everything, using examples. they never fully explained the match on any of their shows. overall, the scramble idea is a good one and should be used for night of champions only.
and the WHC scramble was shorter, from what ive read. the taker/big show/vickie segment is was made it shorter. the PPV was going on overrun and quite frankly, they shouldnt go into overrun for a 2-3 hour PPV.
i thought punk being taken out was a shitty move. they wouldnt do that to cena or orton or triple h or taker, etc. i was actually hoping that punk would cut jericho off, give him GTS and win the match. personally, i didnt want to see anyone else win that much but punk. mysterio is injury prone (missed WM 23 and was hurt at NWO), batista is like cena and needs to stay the hell away from the WHC. JBL isnt championship material anymore. at least not WHC material.
i was expecting the HBK/Y2J match to be a good one. but someone please answer this question for me (it was brought up during the live blog on wwe.com last night) y is there a referee in an unsanctioned match? shouldnt it almost be like a last man standing match? there shouldnt be any pinfalls or submissions. but has anyone else noticed how marty elias has been the guy stopping matches? he was the ref at JD 2007 when he stopped the HBK/RKO match. plus, from what i remember, hes been the ref for the last few Y2J/HBK matches.
alfonso, quick question for both u and seth. out of all the TNA "free agents" (guys who contract r either up or will be up soon), who do u think could come to the WWE? ive heard rumors that christian could come back and that the E is actually pushing for him to return. ive always thought about how christian could have been in edge's shoes when edge won MITB. edge is now main event material, but i think christian could be the guy that is given a championship run when they need to freshen things up. hes good in-ring and on the mic. i also heard that team 3D/dudleys were "free agents" but signed back with TNA (heard it was a work). anyway, thats all for now.
Glad to see the real wweisright back!
A couple of rebuttals - I don't mean to give the impression that I didn't enjoy last night's show, because I very much did. I also agree that the scramble concept was worth a shot. We could debate whether it was a success. There were certain aspects I liked about it, but in the end, the scramble has too many flaws in its logic to work.
And, regardless of whether the title changes during the match are official, I do think the whole scramble scenario devalues titles - as is the case anybody can win a title without beating the champion, or lose it without getting beat. The same goes for Triple Threats - but at least then it's only 3 guys. For Jericho, the controversial fashion of his victory works because he's a heel, but I hate that Matt Hardy won the ECW title by pinning the Miz.
I disagree with your take on the Show-Taker angle. The length of the segment didn't add to the heat, it took away from it. The crowd was totally dead. I don't know how you could defend the length of that segment when clearly it went too long - even forcing the main event to go just 17 minutes.
As for the TNA free agents, unfortunately the guys I think WWE should pick up, they probably wouldn't be interested in. So far, all of WWE's TNA drafts have been flops - Monty Brown, Chris Harris, etc. I'm not a fan of Ron Killings and expect him to be a flop also. If I was a talent scout for WWE, I'd have my eye on A.J. Styles (great athlete, great look, good entertainer), James Storm (good size and look, great talker), and maybe Robert Roode. There are other guys there who I like a lot, but I'm not convinced they'd be good fits in WWE (Samoa Joe, anyone from the X Division.) I also do think WWE should try to get Christian back. He's a rare example of a wrestler whose stock has risen since leaving WWE. In TNA, he's proven that he could be an effective main eventer and believable world champion. I'd bring him back and quickly move him into the main event scene.
The Scramble seemed kind of pointless... not just only because the whole concept seemed a little convoluted but because there just wasn't really any reason to do it than 'just because'... I figured it would pay off with a good match and some setups within it but even being fairly okay with the results, it seems just as convoluted and pointless as it did before.
I thought that Chris Jericho would be the one to end CM Punk's title reign. Granted, I thought it would happen at Survivor Series, or some time that wasn't last night.
It looks like the "unofficial top program" on RAW - Jericho vs Michaels - will now be the OFFICIAL top program on RAW.
My only BIG problem with the Scramble matches (and I'm shocked that no one has mentioned this)... why were the interim champs going for victories? Why was Mark henry trying to get Chavo to submit to the bearhug? Why was Kane trying to pin Batista? And more importantly, why did the Smackdown match end with Jeff trying to pin Shelton if Jeff was already the champ?
Wheres the logic in that? What would they have to gain? Its not like you can become "Interim Champ TIMES TWO" and get ahead in any way...
Anyone else notice that Jeff would have been the New WWE Champ if he had just knocked HHH off of MVP instead of pinning Shelton? What did Jeff have to gain by pinning Shelton? NOTHING!!!
And why didn't the interim champs trying and knockout the referees in the last two or so mins?
The PPV was GREAT and worth viewing...but things get soured overall when things are so contrived that even the performers cant keep track of logic...thus their characters make boneheaded mistakes...
I cant get over how stupid Jeff hardy looked at the end of his match...
ive waited since wrestlemania x8 for jericho be the king of professional wrestling. over the years ive been punished with boring world title reings by the likes of jbl...goldberg...edge...cena...batista amongst others and now finally the MOST talented wrestler in wwe is the CHAMP. also its smart booking to have the best heel in wrestling be the raw champ
I didn't mind the scramble matches, but i agree with a previous comment that they should only be used to determine who is the best contender to face a champion - not to win the championship title itself. Still, i liked the concept, with a little tidying up of the rules i think it could make a good match to have every now and then.
I am so happy Chris Jerico is the WHW Champ, he is definitely the best wrestler the WWE has at the moment and deserves it after such a long time since he last held it. I was actually very surprised that title even changed hands, i thought if the ECW title changed then there would be little chance any of the other two titles would change. I can see why they played out the match in this way without Punk having to actually wrestle, it was to save him losing face or being viewed as an unworthy champion.
Like Alfonso said, he can now claim that he had never actually LOST the title. I thought the PPV was well worth getting and the action during the show was very entertaining. As for the Show/Taker/Vicki angle, it would have been alright had it been a little shorter. It went on just a little too long, sometimes you can build heat by delivering something that is short, to the point and shocking...personally, and rather foolishly i guess, i didn't see what was about to happen with Show and Taker but even so i would have enjoyed it better if it had been shorter.
On a final note i have to utter a huge sigh and a roll of my eyes to the fact that the great and almighty king of kings Triple H impressively and spectacularily won AGAIN! I'm sick of him formulating every match his in to suit himself and make him look more impressive. Brian Kendrick was absolutely FANTASTIC during that match, he's an uprising star no doubt about it - but the very impressive king of kings made sure any shine from him was quickly dissipated when he pedigreed him twice, knocked everyone out of the ring and marched around like the unbeatable champion he is.
It was stupid they made Jeff Hardy pin Shelton Benjamin at the end of that match but why wouldn't they when Triple H is writing his own script. He's not ready to hand over that title yet, and you can bet that when the time comes you can give it a few months and he'll have won it back. Also disappointed he only wrestled for the last 5 minutes of the match, yeah, true champion material that. He used to be my favourite wrestler...pity.
One thing I couldn't understand: why didn't a wrestler use a steel chair or something? It could work two ways.
1) If you're trying to win the belt, hit the champ with a chair and pin him. You could get disqualified, but you wouldn't be out of the match.
2) If you're the champ, hit someone with a chair. You could get disqualified, but the title can't change hands on a disqualification.
It's a good way to keep adding to the suspense, especially if it comes out in the last two minutes.
One thing I couldn't understand: why didn't a wrestler use a steel chair or something? It could work two ways.
1) If you're trying to win the belt, hit the champ with a chair and pin him. You could get disqualified, but you wouldn't be out of the match.
2) If you're the champ, hit someone with a chair. You could get disqualified, but the title can't change hands on a disqualification.
It's a good way to keep adding to the suspense, especially if it comes out in the last two minutes.
I thought an interesting angle to play in the WHC Scramble match would have been for nobody at all to get a pinfall or a submission. Punk would have retained the title without participating!
Alfonso
regarding the talent from TNA you'd pick - what about the entire women's division of TNA - is there any chance of Vince having legitimate wrestling talent in the female division?
From a booking perspective, it makes a little more sense for the title to be able to change hands by pinning anyone. In your predictions, you had to contrive ways for Mark Henry and Punk to be pinned, and by not giving Henry back the title the rest of the way you would have done some serious damage to his character. The only scramble where "you must pin the current champion" made sense was the Smackdown one so Triple H could escape without losing his title.
Also, it would have created an odd situation where you would be insane to pin someone and paint a target on yourself until the very end of the match.
That ending to the ECW Scramble was great! The crowd was into it and the anticipation grew to a fever pitch over the final minute and a half until time finally ran out and everybody realized Matt Hardy was the new champ and went berserk. Brilliant.
Alfonso -
I think a way to contend with the unease regarding value of the title would simply be to refer to it in your own mind as 'he is the champion if the time were to run out right now' instead of 'current champion'. Either way, I don't really think it takes away value. Value is subjective, but I'd say the only true measure is whether people are willing to pay more money for a 'WWE title' defence on PPV. Have these scrambles damaged that potential? Not really. Does the title still feel important? Yeah. I think either you or Seth called the HHH reign a waste, but if he's lead to solid PPV buys defending against Orton, Cena, Edge, and Khali, then it hasn't been a waste.
As for the Big Show segment, I stand by what I said. It needs to be long, if only to drive home the point that he's heel. Look at the last Smackdown, Jeff scores a quick twist of fate on HHH and the show ends. Crowd is shocked, but they don't boo him. Now, if they gave Jeff 20 minutes to score 10 twist of fates on HHH, swanton him another 10 times, and then just for good measure, clock him with a steel chair to the head ten times, it will be a heel turn. The crowd would be left in no doubt. Even if Jeff just methodically beat him down for 15 minutes, the heat would beat. It's about avoidance of doubt, and drilling home the point.
Sometimes things just have to happen on wrestling shows just to have something happen in the future. A Snitsky sqaush on Raw is not entertaning to anyone, but when a plucky face beats him, to some people it is. However a plucky face wouldn't get as much of a rub if the Snitsky sqaush didn't happen. It contributes to the entertainment, even if it isn't immediately noticeable.
I have to ask, what exactly was going on with the perportrator of my name?
"regarding the talent from TNA you'd pick - what about the entire women's division of TNA - is there any chance of Vince having legitimate wrestling talent in the female division?"
Beth Phoenix
Mickie James
Jillian Hall
Katie Lea
Natalya Neidhart
Victoria
Melina
Awesome Kong
Angelina Love
ODB
Roxxi
Jackie Moore
Taylor Wilde
Seems pretty level to me. And WWE is in better shape when it comes to the rest (Christy Hemme, Salinas, Velvet Sky, Rhaka Khan are as bad if not worse than the worst WWE women).
wweisright, I'd like to know the answer to your last question as well. All I remember was reading a comment from Alfonso saying that he had never had to delete a comment or ban someone from posting, but he made an exception.
In case Alfonso does not get to retort, I think his concern about the Championship Scramble matches had as much to do with the multi-challenger aspect as the "hot potato" turnover of the interim champions. Unfortunately, wrestling seems to rely on these title matches and we have to deal with it (but I like the earlier points of Scramble matches as a title shot like the multi-man Money in the Bank ladder match is).
As for your argument that value is in the eye of the beholders, you are correct. "Value" is individually subjective and every championship is only worth as much value as the viewer gives it. Honestly, that includes the Super Bowl.
Regarding the Big Show segment, I respect both arguments but I agree that the length was appropriate to build heat, and for this specific segment, cutting it down to 10 minutes would have been far less effective, so I question whether WWE should have moved it Friday Night Smackdown! where they could have done more editing, instead of sacrificing time out of the main event.
Although, I am not sure why Alfonso would complain about the main event missing time after saying "nothing that happens for the first 19 or so minutes in the (Championship Scramble) match matters." I disagree with the statement, but if he believes it, then I really don't understand his complaint about missing time out of the last match.
In the end, while many are saying it was painfully predictable that Big Show was turning heel, I had not read it in any predictions before the PPV, so I think some are confusing the word "predictable" with "logical."
As far as my question about moving it to Smackdown! or leaving it on the PPV, I think having heel turns on pay-per-view makes sense because the PPV audience deserves more since they are paying more. A couple years ago, I was complaining that PPV's were not worth buying since nothing really happened. Most of the twists & turns would be on TV as were most midcard title changes, so what exactly were people paying $40/mo. to see? Now with Big Show's heel turn at Unforgiven, coupled with the DiBiase/Rhodes double-cross at Night of Champions (or even Colin Delany's swerve at Great American Bash), at least there's something happening to make the TV audience say "oh wow, I missed it!" Hopefully, this trend will start to reflect in the buyrates.