The Steel Cage

AC: So do you feel in a way that those couple of setbacks — the arm in jury and then the concussion — were almost blessings in disguise in that they helped you develop this heel character and get over as this really hot heel act that’s getting booed out of the building everywhere you go?

NM: Yeah, I’d have to agree with you in that respect. When we talked last there we were thinking, my God, you know, all this time struggling and paying my dues, and finally getting to be the champion and something like that happens. But in hindsight now, it’s when things like that happen for real that you can play into that real sense of emotion, that real sense of realism that’s sometime missing from professional wrestling nowadays. It put me up to that next level, so in a way it did help me more than it hindered me. It still hurts, somewhat, when I hear those sort of reactions from people, because it’s real, you know? This is real as real can be when they shout those sort of things and call me a (coward) for taking the night off because I don’t want to get permanent brain damage from having a concussion. I know it’s professional wrestling and I know that’s why they paid their money — so they can scream and shout. But sometimes, it’s a fine line, you know what I mean?

AC: Have you enjoyed playing a heel though, even though I guess it’s not what you thought you’d be in for when you started your reign?

NM: Yeah, to be honest with you, I really have enjoyed it. And I think I’m much better in that sort of role than I am as a babyface, to be perfectly honest with you. For whatever reason — and I can’t seem to understand it — people seem to dislike me a lot more easily than they like me. Generally speaking, people’s first impression of me is dislike. So you go with it.

AC: You’ve defended your title against pretty much everyone in the company, but one match sticks out that I wanted to ask you about. I don’t think people anticipated that it would be as important a match and great a match as it ended up being. That was you versus Tyler Black at the last pay per view. Here was this kid who was a newcomer, very young, thought of a as a tag team wrestler. He wins this four way match and gets the title shot against you. And you guys had what people talked about being one of the best matches of the year and a star-making performance for Tyler Black. Can you talk a bit about that match and your thoughts about helping elevate Tyler to the next level?

NM: It’s funny. When you’re in the wrestling business, you wrestle a lot of matches throughout your career and some of them sort of just them just fade into the past, if you know what I mean. But every now and again, one match comes along, which — you really can’t understand why... There was nothing specifically special about that match, but sometimes the stars align, like (Samoa) Joe vs. (Kenta) Kobashi or on that night me versus Tyler, where the crowd and the build up, the two people involved — just everything clicks in the right sort of way and it comes across as something special. It happens very rarely in the wrestling business, and when it does, it’s one of those moments where, no matter how you do professional wrestling — sports entertainment or otherwise — it’s one of the moments that is as real as real can be. You’re hair stands on end. You finally think, “Man, this is why I did this. This is why I got into it.” It was a real special night. It was the last, closing few minutes of that match when I suddenly thought, “Man, this is something really special we got here.” It speaks volumes about Tyler. He’s a good looking kid, and a great athlete, and he did very well. He had a good showing for himself. People say that match made him. We’ll see where he goes from here. That’s the thing in the wrestling business. You’ve got to consistently get better. You’ve got to consistently reinvent yourself and take steps to improve yourself or else people very quickly forget about you. We’ll see what happens in the future, but it was definitely a very bright light for him and for the company as well.

AC: Let’s talk a bit about the last time you were in the Hammerstein Ballroom, which was the first time that ROH played there. There was a huge build up for your match against Claudio Castignoli that night and the event really felt like an important show for Ring of Honor. Do you feel that playing the Hammerstein really shows that ROH has kind of moved to the next level?

NM: Yeah, to a certain extent. If you want to talk about the next level, I think everyone is probably going to talk about television. But the thing about Ring of Honor that has always been the case is we’ve always taken baby steps. From the very beginning when we started the company and we ran shows one time a month, put out a VHS cassette of it, to now running four or five shows a month, all over the world, with some of the best DVD production outside of WWE and TNA. We’ve taken baby steps because we’ve never wanted to push ourselves too far. So the Hammerstein was really the next logical progression after any other show in New York City before. And the crowd that we drew, the reaction that we got, and the show we put on I think proved that we are going in the right direction, absolutely. It was a huge night for all of us and I was very proud to be a part of it. I think everybody was. It was just one of those nights where everyone can finally take a step back - even if it was just for five minutes once the show’s over — crack open a beer and say, “This is night when we could all look back and be proud of what we’ve done.”

AC: You mentioned television. Do you think it’s something that’s on the horizon and something’s that necessary for the growth and expansion of Ring of Honor?

NM: To be honest, I don’t really know that much about that side of things. I’ve been hearing TV talked about, to be honest with you, for the past two years as being a possibility. There have been options that have been laid on the table. But, as I said to you before, certainly the people that run Ring of Honor, they don’t want to take too big a step and risk too much. Because, if we rush on to TV with a bad deal, it’s going to cost us more than it’s going to help us, and that could be the end of the company. So we better be very careful about that and make sure that any step we do make in that direction is going to be for the better and is not gong to risk too much. So, having that being said, like I said, I really don’t know what’s on the table. To be honest with you, I’m usually the last one to know. But as far as do we need that to get to the next level? I would say so. We can keep taking these baby steps. We’re going to Japan this year, and we’re going all over the world, and we’ve just done the Hammerstein, we’ve just done Toronto. We’re expanding consistently, but I do think TV is going to be necessary to move to the next stage. However, maybe we can just be happy at this stage. We don’t know. We’re taking it a day at a time.

AC: I’ll fill you in on another baby step, I guess. PWI just put together the PWI 500, which is coming out in a few weeks, and you’ll be the highest ranked Ring of Honor wrestler in the history of the list.

NM: That is fantastic! Wow! I must congratulate PWI on its fine judgment.

AC: I think they’ve got you at number eight or something.

NM: Oh my God. Al, you don’t understand how much heat that’s going to get me. Oh my God ... (laughing) That’s fantastic. I can’t wait to get people’s reaction to that.

AC: On that topic, people feel that wrestling magazine are dead and it’s just sort of an era that’s gone by. For you, and for other wrestlers, is stuff like the PWI 500, and getting your picture on magazine covers, and getting stories written about you still something that matters ?

NM: Yeah, it does absolutely, because you have to remember when we were all wrestling fans back in the day, PWI was one of the magazine that we all bought. I remember back in the day when PWI was the magazine I bought, along with the WWE Magazine, or the WWF Magazine as it was at the time, because it had more wrestling from all over the world. I remember looking through them and thinking, ‘Maybe one day I’ll be in there.” Seeing my picture in there was certainly a kind of fulfillment of a childhood dream. And, much like some of the boys don't like to say that they read the dirt sheets or whatever else, most of them do in some way, shape or form. I think there's not many wrestlers that when they're going through the grocery store don't look for PWI just to see what's being covered and everything else. As I've said before, Vince McMahon is very famous for saying that “perception is reality” and while inside the business, some people may scoff at certain number that certain wrestlers get, at the end of the day, indie promoters will pick up that magazine and to a certain extent they'll see somebody maybe in the low number and they'll say, “Man, that's somebody who's really moving up in the business.” And that equates into dollars and cents because that means that that promoter is now willing to pay more money to book you. So it actually is very important. And I think anybody who scoffs at it I think really doesn't understand the state of the business outside of WWE.

AC: On that same topic, for what it's worth, PWI has always been the arbiter of what constitutes a world title. And until this day they still haven't recognized the ROH title as a “world” title. Do you think it deserves recognition as such – hat it's been around long enough and garnered enough prestige that it should be mentioned alongside the WWE and TNA world titles?

NM: Seeing as how I'm the Ring of Honor world champion, of course I would say yes. But if you look at the history – if you look at the prestige that Joe brought to it, (American) Dragon (Bryan Danielson), and all the other champions – Austin Aries defended it in Mexico. It's being defended all over the world, literally all over the world. Certainly, it doesn't have the same sort of coverage that WWE or TNA does, because we don't have TV, but as far as it being a world title being defended all over the world, I'd say it's absolutely on the same level.

AC: What do you think it says that you look at WWE's world heavyweight champion, and TNA's world champion, and they both came through Ring of Honor and both were former ROH champions? Do you think that in and of itself speaks to the kind of talent ROH produces

NM: You see the guys who are making the moves and changing the business, and you can say that. Look at a guy like Jamie Noble. He came through. Everybody who's really got something different, really got some talent – like Matt Sydal (Evan Bourne.) You see so many guys come out of Ring of Honor and go on to greater, better things, you have to look at it as being a company that's building for the future.

AC: Did it mean a lot to you and to Ring of Honor as a whole when C.M. Punk won that title a few weeks ago?

NM: I think so. Some of the boys I think to sort of downplay it, because I think sometimes inside the business wrestlers are scared to come across like marks. But, I firmly did. When I saw him win the belt, I felt kind of proud because I've always considered him to be one of us – one of the guys who really struggled, and went up and down the road, and aid his dues, and now here is on top of the business. So it was a huge deal and I feel very proud of him and I think he's done a fantastic job.

AC: How about one of our rivals and a person you're often linked with – Bryan Danielson? He got that try out a few months ago in WWE. What did you think of that? Do you think he could be a good fit there?

NM: Yeah, I think absolutely. Absolutely. I've been up and down the road with Dragon, as well. We've wrestled in Australia. We've wrestled all over the world. I talk to him a lot about the business and the future and everything else like that. And I think he could do a fantastic job there. He is smaller than a lot of guys there and he doesn't have that same look that WWE has pushed for a long time. But to be perfectly honest with you, you've got to say he's one of the best wrestlers in the world. He could have fantastic matches with pretty much anyone there.

AC: Do you think in between his tryout match, and Punk getting the world title and headlining for WWE, and Joe doing the same for TNA, the mainstream wrestling world is starting to sort of wake up and seeing things the way ROH has in that it's not just about having a bodybuilder's physique, but what you can do in the ring?

NM: Yeah, definitely. Three or four years ago, if someone was to say that C.M. Punk would be a world champion, or even Samoa Joe, for a national wrestling company, a lot of people would have laughed. A lot of people did laugh at the time when people said those sort of things. But I think it's not only the fact that they got to where they are, it's also UFC and MMA and how the professional fighting industry, if you want to call it that, has changed now to where the average person understand that the toughest guys in the world don't look like pro bodybuilders. In actual fact, a lot of time they don't look anything like it.

AC: Seeing Punk and Joe have success in WWE and TNA, does it get you anxious to maybe make it there some day? Is that a long term goal of yours – either WWE or TNA?

NM: I mean never say never. I think at some point in your career you have to look at what you're earning and you have to look at what you've done. And you've got to say there comes a time when I've got to start earning some serious money behind me and saving some so that I can retire before I'm 50 years old so I've got something to show for all the bumps and bruises and injuries. So, certainly, never say never. People have told me and I've heard through the grapevine that people are interested form various different companies, but I'm under contract with Ring of Honor until May of next year. And I'm very, very happy. They've treated me so good. I'm very grateful for what they've done for me and the opportunities they've given me. So, at least until that point in time, we'll see how things go. But, certainly, you can't look at those companies who have national TV and travel all over the world and in some shape or form not want to be there.

AC: Do you look at Dragon as your sort of foil – the other half of your career in that so many great matches have taken place between you two and you've had one of these legendary rivalries? people are always waiting for your next match and when people talk about the best of the best in Ring of Honor, they often talk about the two of you... Do you see him as the Roddy Piper to your Hulk Hogan?

NM: Heaven forbid that I put him over, but I remember when I started working for the company, and I had a real strange, eery feeling one day as I was setting up the ring one day, just looking at him, that for some reason, he would play a huge part in my career. I had no idea why. But it's certainly come to pass that two or three of the biggest matches of my career have been against him, and I think it speaks volumes about what a tremendous talent and fantastic professional wrestler he is – the second best wrestler in the world, behind yours truly.

AC: How about Claudio Castignoli – a guy you've been paired with a lot lately. D you see in him what it takes to be one of the top stars of Ring of Honor? He has the look, the size, and the connection with the fans.

NM: Yeah, he definitely has a ton of potential. He's just one step off at the moment. It's just one little thing – that little intangible, that little something that takes the average guy and puts him at the top of the cards. but he has absolutely everything else, as you said. He's got the height. He's got the athletic ability. And he certainly has the determination. He's just one step away. to be honest with you, sometimes it's just that one great match that just makes you stand out and makes people see you a different way.