Worried that some might misunderstand his comments about the departure of coach Ted Nolan, Islanders Hall of Famer Bryan Trottier sought me out yesterday to explain his feelings in a little more detail. When news of the decision to replace the coach broke, it caught Trottier by surprise and hit him hard because of his friendship with Nolan.
Trottier is a stand-up guy, and he certainly wasn’t going to take a slap at a friend on his way out the door. That reaction not only is understandable, but it’s admirable. But when he read his comments in Newsday, Trottier realized it might appear as though he was at odds with general manager Garth Snow and the organization.
That’s not the case. As director of player development, Trottier is intimately involved in working with the very prospects that Snow is attempting to introduce to the Islanders’ lineup. In our conversation, Trottier emphasized how happy he is in that role, how excited he is to work with the kids and the fact that he is very much in agreement with the direction set by Snow.
Relating a talk he had last season with center Frans Nielsen, Trots said that the modest Nielsen perceived himself as a candidate for the third or fourth lines. Trottier said: “I told him, ‘Frans, you have skills. You can be a second-line center. Can you be first-line? You have to work very hard, but anything is possible.’”
Trottier went on to explain how he feels it’s important to give positive encouragement to the prospects, especially now that they can see a future in the Islanders’ organization, not only this season, but in the ones ahead. If you look at the roster, several veterans are in the final year of their contracts, and there should be many openings in the future. Trottier expects to be a part of the development process in the hope of doing his part to revive a franchise he once led to prominence.
ISLES FILES: The NHL just made the formal announcement that the next Winter Classic will match Detroit and Chicago on Jan. 1, 2009 at Wrigley Field. As part of the release, NHL commissioner Gary Bettmann thanked the Yankees and New York City for their interest and promised to hold future discussions to hold the Winter Classic at the new Yankee Stadium. There was no mention of either the Islanders or the Rangers or, for that matter, the Boston Bruins. Hopefully, that means the Isles, who originated the idea of closing Yankee Stadium with a game between themselves and the Rangers, still are under consideration for a future Winter Classic that would showcase one of the NHL’s most bitter rivalries.
In case you missed it on the Live Chat earlier this morning, I mentioned that the 2008-09 schedule coming out on Thursday has the Islanders opening on the road at New Jersey and then playing their home opener the following night against St. Louis. The schedule begins a week later this season on October 9. The Isles’ home schedule also includes quite a number of Saturday night games and several matinee games, including a number of holiday dates.
Comments (53)
"Hopefully, that means the Isles, who originated the idea of closing Yankee Stadium with a game between themselves and the Rangers, still are under consideration for a future Winter Classic that would showcase one of the NHL’s most bitter rivalries."
Neil Best just made the following comment on his live chat that about any Future Winter Classic in NY:
"But if NBC has anything to say about it, which it will, the game will NOT be against the Isles." (I.E. Rangers/Isles)
Why on earth would a living legend like Trotts feel the need to qualify his comments about Nolan's departure to appease Garth Snow or anyone for that matter? Makes no sense!! What's in the NY water supply these days?
Continuing from the other thread 505, unless we can register our names and no one else can use it you really don't know who you are responding to.
Was it just a coincidence that Nolan and Snow came to a parting of the seas the day after Logan's major piece exposed their philospohical differences? I would think not.
505.... 100% correct. I am never up that early and you will never see me ask Logan anything. So anytime you see my name being used on these "live call ins" you know it is a fake.
19ISLES Great read by your buddy Julian. I was skeptical about the anti trust stuff, but his take on the Nolan firing and the direction the Isles are heading is right on. I also think that Snow is swimming against the tide among other NHL execs but I think that he is more than holding his own. I remember how other NHL GM attempted to rob Bill Torrey when he first began here on the Island. Once Bill established himself all the nonsense stopped.
Nice job and good insight............Sir William
Trotts and Logan have to feed their family.....They have to take sides with who is still working with the Isles.
The thing that scares me is the fact everyone NOT associated with this team and does not receive a pay check from them laughs at them and trashes them.
Right or wrong that is the truth.
That will never help in getting us F.A's
It is like we have a rookie running our PR Dept. that knows nothing about hockey....Oh wait....we do!
I dont want to ask anymore question's about this team and i dont want to hear anything negitive i just want to see RESULTS. This team SUCKS and i cant belive i am sticking with them as a fan. If i dont root for the islanders i will just give up hockey all together, even though it's the best dame sport out there.
Dawes signed 1 year with Rangers
Don't know the details because the NHL.com site is blocked from where I work, but just read headline that Bergenheim signed for two years.
Kevin T.
Ahhh, the troll returneth. Comment at 17:03 clearly not mine.
Too bad about Dawes. I think he will be a big time player. Does anyone know if he becomes a UFA next year because of the one year deal?.......Sir William
Kevin T - yup confirmed on Isles website...
Thanks Sir W ...
Julien didn't want to give me anything that could be construed as ultra controversial ... especially since the media heads up there do a pretty good job on their own.
Basically the concensus is that after Snow failed to hold onto his own FA's and couldn't get any from the "committe's" 'A' wishlist ... that Logan became disenchanted ... and his slow spiral downwards commenced ... The thing was that Snow and Nolan were an arranged marriage ... and although it appeared healthy from the begining ... the honeymoon ended with the departure of Smyth and the rest of the supporting cast.
Winning = Happiness ... and the Isles over achieved in 06-07 ...
Losing = Reality Check ... and Snow was doing what he had to do in order to salvage the organization's depth ... and Nolan worked cross grain to what Snow was trying to accomplish.
BTW ... Julien and his gang in the Great White North feel from the buzz they've heard for over a year ... that Ryan Smyth was Snow's gift to Nolan ... Nolan was a huge factor in acquiring Smyth ... and although Julien said he could be wrong ... but he also felt that Snow was really under pressure considering the position the Isles were in at the trade deadline at the time that Nolan gave Snow a choice of .. Ryan Smith, Ryan Smith or Ryan Smith .... and Snow gets most of the blame for that trade ... but least we forget ... that trade was a product of the committee system ... and All of the Above made that move.
I still like Nolan ... and wish it never came to that ... but as much as I like him as a coach ... I have learned that he really was way to rigid in his coaching approach for the organization to succeed in re-building ... he'd do nothing but sap the kids of their confidence .... aside from Comeau apparently.
A great coach is not one dimensional... he can find the strengths in every player under his tutlage .... and hone those strengths into perfection ... he can take a player's weakness .... and diminish their negative effect .... he makes players better.
I think Nolan was a great motivator ... but a great teacher? I never got the chance to see that happen.... but after rethinking his tactics with the kids .... I'm not so certain.
I hope Nolan does find the right team for him ... maybe a team that doesn't need as much guidence ... just someone to make the lines and implement his strategy without much input ... I think his coaching style actually suits the Redwings run and gun style ... the Isles aren't there yet..
... Catch ya's all later.
"but after rethinking his tactics with the kids .... I'm not so certain."
You're right. Campoli, Gervais, Comeau and Bergenheim all looked horrible under Nolan (?)
You all do realize that this fascination with the kids is merely a product of having little talent. please tell me you see this?
"please tell me you see this?"
Sure. Absolutely.
The same way that only a kool-aid swigging, face painting Ray "FAN" in Tampa would have believed at the beginning of this baseball season that their kids would only be a 1/2 game out of 1st place at the All-Star break.
Those people HAD TO BE NUTS to think or believe that.
But good for them.
And good for those of us who here who still believe in the Isles.
Why is it necessary to find fault with us?
To call us names in print?
To belittle our devotion?
Isn't that what sports is all about?
Isn't that why Cub fans are "certain" that this is their year?
Don't the rest of us "know better"?
Good for you for "knowing better" about the Isles
Just call it the Audacity of Dopes, and leave us to our insanity and try to find SOMETHING, ANYTHING, that you can hitch your star to and cheer up your otherwise miserable existence.
Just my opinion, from two time zones away
19 ISLES Serious hockey question. Do you really think that a team that had 6 20 goal scorers and another with 18 was that bad? It had an all star goalie in DP and a very solid first line D with Witt and Hill ( until Hill got caught). I think that the team was vastly under rated and that a better coach would have done better with the players he had. All emotions aside, look at it from a strictly hockey perspective.
The SMYTH trade..... I do not know how people can knock this.
Snow saw a chance to overacheive in a year when there was no clear favorite to win the Cup. This was a gutsy move to bring people and excitement back to the Coliseum.
Let's look at what we gave up:
Robert Neilsson. He was NEVER going to become the player he is today under Nolan. Noan disliked him and his work ethic and banished him. No matter what level of skill he had, he was not playing here under Ted. So what did we really lose?
Ryan O'Marra. Anybody seen Ryan O'Marra lately? Me either.
1 st Round Pick. A late first rounder in a very weak draft. # 15 was Alex Plante. Graded a 7.0 out of 10 for the Calgary Hitmen.
Scouting report says he is big, great shot but slow and can be beaten by faster forwards. Time will tell about him.
Did the Smyth trade work out as Snow wanted it to. No, but at least he tried something to improve the team right now.
I retrospect, how great did the Av's make out signing Smyth to that crazy contract? It doesn't look so great now, does it?.......................Sir William
Steady,
FYI
You have an admirer (Brian) on the Vinal Flore.
19Isles...Not sure who this Julien guy is...Guess I am out of the loop :) :)
Whoever he is, tell him he is clueless. To hang the Smyth trade on Nolan is nonsensical. EVERY coach in the world wants to get the best players possible down the stretch. That is what coaches do....They ask to get the team better....Get them Great players that make them look good and improve their team.
A GM's job is to listen to want the coach wants and then do HIS JOB by evaluating the wants and needs of the club. NO WAY can you blame Nolan for that one.
As for the 06/07 that made the playoffs....LMAO that you think Nolan did not do a good job that year. HE squeezed blood out of a rock. He got things from players they were not expected to do. EVERY SINGLE NHL guru picked the Isles dead last.....He made the playoffs with a back up midget goalie playing down the stretch. He got the best out of his guys. That is what a coach is paid to do....You can hate Nolan all you want, but the facts do not lie on the 06/07 season.
This love affair some of you have with Snow is mind boggling. I could care less if you dislike Nolan, but to constantly stick up for a GM that is yet to do anything 100% solid is crazy.
He is the boss right ??? So it is his fault for the media hype over the Dubie news and all that hooplah. His fault for the rift with Nolan and not nipping it in the bud sooner. His fault for the Smyth trade. His fault for trading #5 pick(whether you like it or not.) His fault for waiting so long to fire Nolan. Starts at the TOP.
Yet, because this man tells you he has a "plan" of youth you buy into him ??? What choice does he have ??? OF course he has to go youth...He cannot attract players and his other plans FAILED.....Very easy to play the "YOUTH" card.......VERY EASY !!!!
Name me one corporate GM or MGR that does not have a plan? I have been doing my job since college and every year I sit down and go over my teams goals and that fiscal year's "plan."
Not saying you have to dislike Snow like me, but until he proves himself just ONCE......calm down a bit.
What the H * LL is the vinyl floor ????????
above was me
well said my friend, well said...
Garth can do something right now to at leat mute this debate...
He needs to agree with Hermann and hire Quennville.
Do it Garth. You'll likely have to offer him a boat-load of cash and an even larger boat-load of guarateed years. But so what? We need a real live "hockey guy", a respected, knowledgable, smart, tested coach to make sure the "plan" gets executed and we Islander faithful can again walk out of our houses without paper bags on our heads.
Just git 'er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Garth can do something right now to at least mute this debate...
He needs to agree with Hermann and hire Quennville.
Do it Garth. You'll likely have to offer him a boat-load of cash and an even larger boat-load of guarateed years. But so what? We need a real live "hockey guy", a respected, knowledgable, smart, tested coach to make sure the "plan" gets executed and we Islander faithful can again walk out of our houses without paper bags on our heads.
Just git 'er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steady, can you please get off of my jock? Thanks.
Ironically, Steady is himself a "bobblehead" as he only seems to listen and/or care about what the press is saying about the Islanders.
Go and bobble for good ol Teddy ...
Upstate Isles Fan said ~ ""but after rethinking his tactics with the kids .... I'm not so certain."
You're right. Campoli, Gervais, Comeau and Bergenheim all looked horrible under Nolan (?)"
Upstate ... I think you miss-read what I wrote ... I never said the kids did horrible ... I said I wasn't so certain he would be able to get the BEST out of those kids ... and I did say apparently except Comeau ....
If you noticed .. you picked players that had already graduated from prospect status to probably status ... but look for a second.
Campoli ... 46 GP 4 G 14 A ... 18 P
he's an offensive minded defenseman... those are very sub-par numbers even in little more than a half season of play ... I would argue that Nolan's impact on Camps was not extraordinary.
Gervais ... 60 GP ZERO ... yes ... ZERO Goals .. 13 A .. 13 P
.. a lower grade clone of Campoli ... oh yeah ... and ZERO Goals ... Do you mean to tell me that Nolan made him a better player??? Are you kidding me? ... and some accuse me of over estimating the talent the Isles have. Gervais is a good kid .... but if Nolan made him a better player ... than Gervais really must of stunk before Nolan came aboard.
Comeau .... I already conceeded that Comeau flourished under Nolan.
Bergy ... 78 GP .. 10 G ... 12 A ... 22 P
I love Bergy's play ... I think he's a keeper ... a great future pest that will eventually put up some good numbers .... I just don't think he's there yet ... I think he's capable of 20 Goals when he peaks ... and a 30 assist guy if he gets 1st or 2nd line minutes some day... BUT .... he's just not there yet ... and to say that Nolan made him a better player is just assuming... because we didn't get a chance to see him in 06-07 ... he might of gotten his BITE playing in Europe .... we just don't know ....
... and since obviously since some people think I HATE NOLAN ... you haven't been paying much attention ... even when I say I like Nolan and wish things worked out ... that must of went over your head ... just because I hold Nolan accountable or his mistakes ... doesn't mean I don't like him ... but more and more as evidence comes to light ... it seemed he wasn't the guy that would be able to develop the kids into STARS ... I don't blame Nolan for going the vet route ... the kids didn't do much better when they had their chance .... and I've said that before .... but whose fault is that???
I said this the night before Nolan was let go .... S**t runs down hill .. and he's down stream from Snow ... if he's going to go against his boss ... he loses ... that is a fact ... whether you like Snow or not .... Snow wins that battle every time ... I'm an Islander fan and I want Snow to do well for the Islanders .... I'm not rooting for him because I like Snow ... I root for him because he's part of the Islanders... I have been convinced more and more the last few days that Nolan didn't want to be an Islander ... he did things that were bizarre and flaunted his disobediance publicly ... I didn't just get that from Greg Logan .... when I reach out to others who know how the back channels of the NHL and other leagues work .. they seemed the least bit surprised ... and saw it coming.
I still hope for success for Nolan ... just not against the Isles ... I like the guy ... think he's a really good coach ... and took the team of VETS that we had in 07 to a level above what most "hockey people" thought they were capable ... I'll never forget that.... Nolan just put some doubts in my mind that he was onboard for the kid movement ... and then he admitted it himself with his parting words.
Any comparison to the T.B. Rays is a joke. They had a large group of young talent that was recognized league-wide. The only surprising thing is that they got good so fast. The Isles have very little young talent.
Sir William wrote:
"The SMYTH trade..... I do not know how people can knock this."
Snow is talking about a philosophy, and directly contrasted that philosophy with that trade. He should be consistent. He wasted 2 plus years that we fans must suffer through, which only seems bareable b/c we've waited so long anyone. It's a joke he is allowed to run a franchise and flip-flop like he has.
Novice:
The Smyth trade happened before the commitment to the KID philosophy... Hindsite isn't always 20/20 in your case I guess.
19 Isle:
I agree with your post 100%
DOC
Steady ... if you did infact write this .. "19Isles...Not sure who this Julien guy is...Guess I am out of the loop :) :)"
Then you really are out of the loop ... He's a scouting analyst from Montreal that works for an independent scouting company in Canada ... he has been working in hockey since he had a career ending injury in juniors in the 60s ... he characterized himself as a Witt type d-man... LOL!! I told him French players aren't known for their toughness ... and he came back at me with Denis Potvin ... LOL!! Ya know ... it's funny ... but it's hard to think of Denis as French Canadian .. but he got me good on that one.
Back to my point ....
Steady ... if you've followed my posts ... you'd of noticed that I was a Ted Nolan guy ... not a Snow guy ... I was hoping that Ted and Garth would have a meeting of the minds and patch things up .... on Sunday night I even suggested that maybe they were laughing about the whole controversy over a pizza .... apparently they did have a meeting of the minds ... and their decision was to mutually decide Nolan wasn't the coach for the Isles.
As much as I wanted Nolan to be the coach ... the reality check I put myself though pointed in another direction ... Nolan was insubordinate to Snow's wishes ... and took the behind the scenes power struggle public ... and this also stressed out some players ... key players as we are led to believe. So who am I but just a bystander... am I to take Nolan's side of the story just because I like him?? Or am I to believe the multiple other stories from different sources?
Snow wasn't innocent either ... he played a role in the pubic spat.
I don't think Nolan wanted any part of a kid movement ... I used to think it was just people complaining ... but Nolan's final words was that he didn't agree with that philosophy... so be it ... it's a lot easier to find another coach then replace the Isles roster with seasoned vets .... well ... mostly that is because seasoned vets want nothing to do with the Isles .... and this goes way back before Snow was a GM.
The thing with Ryan Smith ... that was a mutual decision for Snow and Nolan .... I never liked it ... I saw the writing on the wall when it happened ... I had a oracle moment if you will ... Anyone had to know that Ryan Smith was a small mountain town kid that had no interest in the Islanders or probably most teams in the East ... the guy cried for god's sake ... he was going to be a UFA .... he had no fear of being stuck on the Island ... he was emotional because he grew up with Edmonton and he knew that life he loved was over ... b/c he knew he wasn't going to come to terms with the Oilers even in FA....
The thing about the 2 players and the pick ... I felt those picks / players could of been used in a solid trade for a player under a longer contract or other draft picks in the future ... I could care less about Nilsson or O'mara ... and the pick that Edmonton ended up getting .... that isn't the point ... the point is that those were 3 huge wasted assets for bargaining power.
It was a joint decision by Snow and Nolan to go for Smyth ... so blaming each one of them is futile ... Snow gets the tag of bone head for the trade ... but also gets kudos for having the nuggets to pull the trigger on the deal ... Nolan had the luxury of letting Snow take the hit if the deal didn't work out for the Isles ... and it didn't.
Sure ... I'm actually glad in a way that deal didn't work out ... because Smyth's skills are fading and the Av's are stuck with him ... but I still can't help but feel that if Smyth remained an Islander ... a bunch of other things would of fell in place for the Isles.... and Nolan might still be the coach.
But lets be honest ... Snow offered Smyth, Drury, Gomez and who knows who else ... more money than what they accepted ... is Snow to blame for that??? I blame Wanger .... he created a circus atmosphere ... and as long as he thrusts himself into hockey ops ... that circus will remain ... I think once the lighthouse project gets more legs .. he'll be too busy with that ... and will keep his nose out of Isles ops to a minimum ... mostly due to his time being limited.... I hope anyway.
So what FA 'A' lister have the Islanders attracted over the last uhhhh ... lets say 20 years?? Snow has been around for 2 seasons ... I think it's grossly unfair to blame him for the mismanagement prior to his tenure ... I have enough negative points against him for what he has done wrong himself .... Snow at least is smart enough to recognize that the Isles lack a great deal of bargaining equity in which to attract prime time UFA's .... lets be real about that at least. Short of offering about 10% - 20% more than the next best offer ... what is he to do??? Assuming he does .... the Isles would quickly hit cap with players that still may not have enough to put the Isles over the top ... and then we have a handful of over paid vets that WE as fans get all over when they don't perform to the level their paycheck says they should be performing... and we have an Alexi Yashin situation times maybe 3 or 4 players.
I think the plan is ... to not have to over pay for over rated talent anymore ... the plan is to try to build a core of good young players that actually make future UFA's consider the Isles as a good place to have a chance to win ... and with the light house underway in a couple of years .... a nice new facility to play in.
Sure ... that plan seems obvious .. and even a couple of years to fruition ... but even with my Nolan colored glasses I'm able to see that Snow has taken the bull by the horns cause I think he's as done with all the Bull Schite as we Islander fans are .... we have no choice but to hope his vision becomes reality in a couple of years .... no one says it's going to be easy to follow this team the next couple of years ... but if Snow's plan starts to bare some fruit .... we'll be able to look back on these days and say ... wow ... Snow schooled me .... and turned my doubts into confidence.
The only other option for fans are to jump ship if they don't believe in throwing support behind Snow and the Isles ... and become a rags fan or fan of another team... or just stop following hockey all together as someone suggested he'd consider .... look .. hockey isn't for the faint of heart .... and that especially goes for being a fan of the Islanders ... but one thing is for sure ... even our small hard core fan base is as passionate or stronger than most any fan of even the most hardy Canadian teams.
Sir W asked ... "19 ISLES Serious hockey question. Do you really think that a team that had 6 20 goal scorers and another with 18 was that bad? It had an all star goalie in DP and a very solid first line D with Witt and Hill ( until Hill got caught). I think that the team was vastly under rated and that a better coach would have done better with the players he had. All emotions aside, look at it from a strictly hockey perspective."
YES ... I do think a reason a lot of those players had career years was because Nolan was able to orchestrate a consistent game plan with the roster he had. It worked in favor for those players and the team as a whole.
I don't think many coaches could of enjoyed the same success as Nolan was able to accomplish in 06-07. IMHO
However, I'm not big on the 1-3-1 offense because you need speed and mobility to counter a break down ... but the Isles had Blake and Yashin then ... and that combo was very effective in a 1-3-1 .. till Yashin's injury... then he really didn't play well under that system ... it should also be stated ... Nolan didn't use a strict 1-3-1 ... it depended on the score .. who was winning ... and the team they were playing against.
I think Nolan tried that same system last season b/c it worked so well the previous year ... but the staff this season compared to last season was an obvious difference .. not to mention what injuries did to the team.
Let's take a good look at the 2006 Islanders and see where they compared to the rest of the NHL
20 goals scorers:
Isles 6
Rangers 5
Devils 4
Penguins 4
Flyers 2
Sabres 6
Sens 4
Ducks 5
That's the rest of the division, the playoff opponent and the Cup finalists. So the Isles had a very balanced attack and were right up there or better than the best teams in the league.
"He made the playoffs with a back up midget goalie playing down the stretch. He got the best out of his players"
Did he? That midget goalie plyed in 8 games and had a 4-1 record, a 2.06 GAA, and a .934 save percentage. And he made the most pressure packed save of the season when it was all on the line.
On the other hand we had the coaches choice, Mr .Dunham who posted a 4-10-3 record in 19 games with a 3.74 GAA and a .889
save percentage.
I'll take the "midget" every time.
Nolan also had DP play in 62 games and post a very respectful 39-19-9 record with a 2.58 GAA and .919. save percentage.
As for "getting the most from his players" how great was it to see Yashin, who produced at a point per game pace, sitiing on the bench during the playoffs in favor the immortal Randy Robatille?
Nolan put his personal feelings ahead of the best interests of the teams because he disliked Yashin. He later pulled the same crap with Simon.
If the 2006 team was so bad, why were all the Islander UFA's snapped up by other NHL teams and given contracts with huge raises? I never seem to get an answer to that question.
As for the so called "hockey guru's" I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that they didn't pick the Isles to finish in last place. Big deal. They were wrong again.
The 2006 team had plenty of talent and should have finished in 6 th place except for the coach, who insisted on sticking with a washed up vet, instead of giving the younger player a chance.
But let's not let facts and stats get in the way of a good rant.
In any case, Nolan is out.
And in the end, his own stubbornness to resist youth did him in.
.........Sir William
Let's take a good look at the 2006 Islanders and see where they compared to the rest of the NHL
20 goals scorers:
Isles 6
Rangers 5
Devils 4
Penguins 4
Flyers 2
Sabres 6
Sens 4
Ducks 5
That's the rest of the division, the playoff opponent and the Cup finalists. So the Isles had a very balanced attack and were right up there or better than the best teams in the league.
"He made the playoffs with a back up midget goalie playing down the stretch. He got the best out of his players"
Did he? That midget goalie plyed in 8 games and had a 4-1 record, a 2.06 GAA, and a .934 save percentage. And he made the most pressure packed save of the season when it was all on the line.
On the other hand we had the coaches choice, Mr .Dunham who posted a 4-10-3 record in 19 games with a 3.74 GAA and a .889
save percentage.
I'll take the "midget" every time.
Nolan also had DP play in 62 games and post a very respectful 39-19-9 record with a 2.58 GAA and .919. save percentage.
As for "getting the most from his players" how great was it to see Yashin, who produced at a point per game pace, sitiing on the bench during the playoffs in favor the immortal Randy Robatille?
Nolan put his personal feelings ahead of the best interests of the teams because he disliked Yashin. He later pulled the same crap with Simon.
If the 2006 team was so bad, why were all the Islander UFA's snapped up by other NHL teams and given contracts with huge raises? I never seem to get an answer to that question.
As for the so called "hockey guru's" I can't remember a time in the last 10 years that they didn't pick the Isles to finish in last place. Big deal. They were wrong again.
The 2006 team had plenty of talent and should have finished in 6 th place except for the coach, who insisted on sticking with a washed up vet, instead of giving the younger player a chance.
But let's not let facts and stats get in the way of a good rant.
In any case, Nolan is out.
And in the end, his own stubbornness to resist youth did him in.
.........Sir William
19 ISLES
The thing about the 2 players and the pick ... I felt those picks / players could of been used in a solid trade for a player under a longer contract or other draft picks in the future ... I could care less about Nilsson or O'mara ... and the pick that Edmonton ended up getting .... that isn't the point ... the point is that those were 3 huge wasted assets for bargaining power."
Wasted assets? To who? I can see the pick, even if it was the 15 th pick in a bad draft. But Nilsson? Nolan destroyed any trade value he may have had to another team by degrading him constantly. And O'Marra? He's playing in the ECHL. He couldn't cut it in the AHL.
So what makes you think that Nilsson and O'Marra were coveted assets? The only reason Edmonton made the trade was because they were going to lose Smyth for nothing.
The pick may turn into something but both players were never going to play for the Islanders. Remember the team that gets the best player wins the trade.
Second point.... Long before Wang bought the team the Islander
reputation was shot. Spano, Gluckstein and Milstein, Maloney and Milbury did the team in. Not Wang. I think Wang is "eccentric" but lets place the blame where it belongs. Once Pickett sold the team it was all downhill from there.
Wang has backed off a bit and let Snow take control which is a good step. He seems to be content to let Snow run the hockey opperations and he'll deal with the Lighthouse Project.
Still liked Julian's take on things.........Sir William
This is a terribly sad development, specially since it should have been Mike Comrie who got the boot. Big money really does talk.
We got a couple of 4th or possibly even 4rd liners locked up for TWO whole years now fellas, this is where the getting starts to get good, I'm sure.
Could someone please explain to me why there seems to be confusion between Jeff Tambellini and John Tonelli?
What is supposed to happen now? He has a one-way deal so he'll remember how to score? He may be the greatest player bridgeport has ever seen, but it means nothing up here.The kid is small, soft, and loads his cooperalls when he's on the ice in the NHL. "The Chance" to do anything is not going to turn him into something he's not. Watch and see if you don't believe me.
Bill, you complain about assets that arent worth anything being overvalued. Nilsson is nothing you say, where is your o'marra now, you say. And what has the team lost? Well, it looks like they lost at least a serviceable center that still has plenty of room to get better. You think that's no big deal for this club? Looked lately at the depth chart at center (or anywhere else)? I'd have him here over the 20 game smyth rental, because Smyth was never the answer to any problem the team had when they dealt for him.
If what you say is true and Nilsson would never have become anything here because of Nolan, well, now there's no Nilsson or Nolan so how well did that work out? Is it the case that if we knew Nolan would be gone that Nilsson would have become a better player and we would have kept him here?
You need to pick a station and stay with it. You can't come here and laud Snow for "stocking up" in the draft or "following a plan" when all he's done is amass a few low-yeild prospects that will likely turn out no better than your Nilsson or O'Marra or whoever you like. You either place value on these kinds of prospects or you don't. It can't be the case that Snow did a great job trying to land Smyth and well who needs those "prospects" anyway, but boy, what a Great Job he did in the draft because now we have some "prospects". You don't get to pick and choose based on hindsight.
Either prospects are valuable to this team, in which case the Smyth deal was a waste, or prospects are not valuable to this team, in which case Snow did nothing but set this team back by trading down from skill at the draft. You can take your pick, but you cannot have both.
...On the upcoming season, just to be sure I haven't missed anything here...
-Team has no scoring
-Team has no defense
-Team has no enforcer
-Team is physically small
-Team has no coach
Sounds like a recipe for success to me! Big things to look forward to from this team, yessir. Big things.
Predictions:
Hartley named coach
Witt misses 15 or more games to injury
Martinek misses 15 or more games to injury
DiPietro misses 10 or more games to injury
Weight misses 15 or more games to injury
Guerin misses 10 or more games to injury
Streit traded before deadline
75 point maximum
Bottom 5 League Defense
Bottom 3 League Offense
Enjoy! Its good times in Islander Country.
Yes, the Smyth deal took place before Snow went with the youth movement. In fact, Smyth leaving was the reason for the youth movement. However, I think it is fair to take a shot at Snow for not trading Satan, Tank and Vasicek at the deadline for some combination of third, fourth or fifth round picks. Keeping those players at the eadline and then letting them walk for nothing totally flies in the face of any alleged youth movement. And if Snow accumulated some picks for those players, maybe he wouldn't have felt compelled to trade down at the draft to amass more picks.
Frei:
I agree with what Darcy said above me. You make the case that either prospects are valuable and Smyth was a bad trade or that they are not valuable and thus Smyth was a good trade. In a vacuum that is good logic but the context is different for those two teams. The 2006-07 Islanders turned out to be better then expected (and Sir William...I do attribute a lot of those 20 goal seasons to Nolan's methods). In that situation the prospects become slightly less valuable because the team had more pieces in place then they thought. However, after Smyth and the diaspora of the guys who had career years the Islanders were suddenly on the short end of the stick with nothing left in the system partly due to the Smyth trade. Because of this deficiency of prospects and weakness of the team itself the prospect value went up dramatically which is why we have such an inflamatory move as trading down in the draft.
I understand what you were trying to say but the context changes the meaning of the variables.
"Why did the UFA's get snatched up form other teams after the 06/07 season if the team was so bad"
Well thanks for proving my point Bill......They were snatched up b/c NOLAN got the best of them and they were attractive to other teams!!!!!
What have they done SINCE leaving the Isles ????
What have they done without the inspiration of NOLAN ????
SQUAT ....Blake was horrible, Yashin is in ???, Satan was hurt and older, Potti did nothing, Hill was on Roids, Sillinger was HURT!!!! DP ..HURT !!!
So actually the 06/07 season is a perfect example of a great coaching job.....No one else has gotten as much as those players since !!!
How about 07/08 where up until the injuries this team was in the playoffs ??? Everyone seems to forget that.
Now if someone from the Garth Snow camp would gives me CONCRETE evidence he has done anything that is a VERY GOOD .... a PROVEN move.....I would be happy !!!
Also want to hear how anyone from Garth camp can prove to me the BIG DEAL, b/c he says he has a PLAN ...Whoopeee name me one GM that does not have a "plan!"
HE is going with youth b/c everthing else he has tried the past 2 years has FAILED !!! Real b^lls is going with youth when there is still a chance to not have too. In other words if he SOLD at the deadline of 06/07 and not traded for Smyth.....NO, I am not saying I wanted that either, but that would of been a BOLD move of a GM with a plan.....Let's face it ...Even with Smyth that team was not Cup worthy!
Now....If you are all right that Wang is NOW out of the picture...I will give him time and shut my mug....The coach he is supposedly picking will be an indication whether he is now our true captain O' Captain !!!
Eyes of Long Island and afar are upon thee Gath....PROVE ME WRONG !!! Get a proven well coach that can work with kids and attract players.
Frei-
Last year I accused you of being a Ranger fan and you got all bent out of shape...Re-read your last post. I too am down on the organization, but you simply spew hate from every angle. To say the Isles have NO DEFENSE is absolutey DEAD WRONG.
I actually think the y have a very good defense. Nice mix of vets and youth. A couple of puck movers and a couple of bangers. There DEFENSE is playoff worthy.
Wow ... I find myself agreeing with Frei here .... well I agree with the meat of what he said .... based on the perceived value of prospects and the sum of what the Isles got in their trade for Smyth. The other stuff you said I take some issue with ... but I'm only focusing here on the Smyth trade.
Sir W ... you say that the team who gets the best player wins the trade. That logic is good ... except for ONE major fatal flaw ... I think you still have to have that player after the dust settles .... makes sense?
My own method for determining trade value is based on who got the most total perfomance during a a 3 year shake out per player, the age of the player, and of course the peformance of the player .... NEVER what they did prior to the trade .... but what they did ONLY while in the service of my team.
So lets see how this deal has shaken out based on my method.
Smyth - NYI
Reg. Season 06-07 ------- partial season
GP- 18 --- G 5 --- A 10 --- P 15
Playoffs ---------------------------------------------
GP- 5 --- G 1 --- A 4 --- P 5
------ season #1 --------------------------------
N/A
------ season #2 -------------------------------
N/A
----- season #3
N/A
Nilsson -EDM
Reg. Season 06-07------- partial season
GP- 4 --- G 1 --- A 0 --- P 5
Reg. Season 07-08 ----- season #1 ----
GP- 71 --- G 10 --- A 31 --- P 41
------ season #2 ----------------------------
TBD
----- season #3 ----------------------------
TBD
O'mara - EDM
----- season #1 ------------------------
Didn't Play
----- season #2 ------------------------
TBD
----- season #3 ----------------------
TBD
2007 1st Round Draft Pick
Now this one is tricky ... b/c you can't assume the Isles would of picked the same player ... so basically you have to see how maybe the 3 players drafted from that spot and beyond peform in their first 3 years of their standard entry level contract.
Determining who won a trade soley on who got the best player out of the gate is very short sighted .... it is like determining who won a horse race after the first marker.... or who one a ball game after the first inning.
I like to look at the SUM Value of the trade ... and what happens 3 years down the line.
We know what we got out of Smyth ... a whopping 6 goals and 14 assists in 23 games when you include the playoffs. FYI ... Nilsson produced those same exact numbers for the Isles in 2006... granted he played in 53 games on a non-playoff team ... and based on those numbers .. Andy Hilbert is slightly off par with his 8 goals and 8 assists this season ... based on pure production not accounting for amount of games played.
Is Smyth a good player ... sure ... I'll say a really good player. But the SUM of the trade VALUE was off-base ... and as Frei said ... you can't pick and choose how you value a prospect ... you have to use the same formula whether Nolan is there or not.... because right now he's not... and Nolan .. or the Isles for that matter will have no bearing at all on how any of the players in the trade will pan out their next few seasons.
Darcy ... Logan previously wrote that he had Vas, Satan and Tank on the block before the trade deadline .... he got no bites ... or else I'm sure he'd of gotten what little he could for them.
-------------------
Healy ... I agree with your post.
Steady said ~ ""Why did the UFA's get snatched up form other teams after the 06/07 season if the team was so bad"
Well thanks for proving my point Bill......They were snatched up b/c NOLAN got the best of them and they were attractive to other teams!!!!!
What have they done SINCE leaving the Isles ????
What have they done without the inspiration of NOLAN ???? "
----------------------------------------------
What Steady said is exactly why I was in Nolan's camp till he got let go ... I never liked Nolan's behavior in his pissing match with Snow ... especially undermining Snow ... because I felt that was a poor miscalculation that only hurt the team ... but I will always feel that Nolan got the most out of his vets ... and proved it in 06-07 ... I don't credit the guys on the team for going 20+ in goals as much as I credit Nolan for enabling them to get the 20+... just as Steady said ... look what they did this past year without Nolan.... Nada.
I'm only down on Nolan because of how he couldn't get more from the kids ... and he didn't give them ice time even when the vets he got so much from the year before were sputtering ... make the vets earn the ice time as much as you want the kids to. It worked with Bergy ... to a point ... and with Comeau also.
A coach almost NEVER wins a pissing match with a hand picked GM. That was a huge fault of Nolan's ... and Nolan also had to get acquainted with the fact that even with his good rep as a coach .... the Isles weren't going to attract 'A' list UFA's .... and I think that kinda ticked him off and he blamed Snow for that ... even though he himself was part of the committee. He over estimated his power in the chain of command.
I think we'll miss Nolan's enthusiasm and spirit ... it is now up to Snow to replace Nolan's ability to get the most out of his players.... we shall see .... I'm rooting for ya Garth ... pull the rabbit out of the hat.
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I also would like to add ... that Sir W is absolutely right about the Isles repuation being "shot" before Wang took ownership ... it is much easier to ruin a reputation than it is in restoring it... so sure ... it will take some time .... BUT ... IMO ... Wang has done more odd ball things to reinforce the bad reputation ... than he has done in restoring it ... he tries .... I'll give him that much .... but the fact that the Isles' rep is no better off than when he took over is evidence that he has failed miserably in the reputation restoral business... if anything he's piled onto that negative image.
Doesn't it occur to anyone that maybe Nolan wasn't "on board" with THIS youth movement because the youth he had was not NHL level talent? Is it a coincidence that the one kid he latched onto -Comeau - is also the only kid that showed any semblence of REAL NHL ability ? If Nolan seemed to not be on board with the youth movment, it's because he thought there was nothing there and they wouldn't help his chances of winning. If 2 years from now Jeff Tambellini is scoring 25-30 goals a year and producing regularly on the PP then maybe he was wrong about him. I'll be shocked if that happens. Snow's "youth movement" didn't actually get going until now, with the draft moves and multiple picks he got. Does anyone here know how Nolan felt about dedicating himself to a development plan NOW, when all these picks are on the way and there may be some REAL pieces to work with? I don't think anyone does. We have no idea what was said in Monday's meeting. We only know what Snow and Nolan told us and what we can surmise from media sources, most of which is pap, with all due respect. I'm pretty sure it's not the whole story, and I think Nolan is gone because Snow didn't want him here, then Nolan didn't want to be here. A personal dispute pure and simple, not Nolan's refusal or inability to work with young players or commit to youth plan that didn't exist until all the water had passed under the bridge.
Bystander:
To play devil's advocate, was it Comeau's ability/results that shows Ted's ability to pick out talent or was it that Ted played him consistently that let Comeau show off more?
I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Its hard to tell exactly the effect of Nolan and player because there is turn over between both the last couple of years.
That being said, a good example of the Nolan effect is several players on a team that was written off having career years. Even with the bad press, players performed better on the team in 2006/2007 then they did previously. I think this coming year will be a determinant year for a number of items:
-how strong Nolan's effect really was
-how good is the basic core of youth we have
-what really is Garth Snow's "plan" and how is it progressing
-will the Lighthouse show some real progress to getting shovels in the ground
-will the attendance and TV ratings (which were actually trending UP, people seem to forget that) continue the trend or will it plummet back to the levels of 1999?
This is a very pivotal year in determinig whether this franchise will even exist in a few.
19: That was some response to a one sentence post! I think you're reading a little too deeply into what I wrote, so I'll explain. I hardly think I "overvalue" anyone on the Islanders - if anything, I think this "youth movement" is doomed to fail precisely because of the lack of any naturally talented youth besides Okposo (who himself is being pegged with expectations that may be beyond his ability since there's nothing else to get excited about). But I do think Nolan got results out of what he had to work with - with young and old players.
Yes, I believe Nolan helped make Gervais a very responsible defenseman in his own zone. A great player? No, I don't think there's a heck of a lot to work with there, personally. But when...it was either Witt or Marty, don't remember which...went down with an injury last season, Gervais filled in admirably as a shutdown defenseman playing top minutes against the other teams' top players, which is not an easy role to fill in any league, let alone the NHL. He made mistakes, but held his own in a very tough spot where he might not have been able to previously, and given Nolan's emphasis on playing hard in all three zones, yes, I think he had a lot to do with that. Ditto for Freddy Meyer if you want to throw him in with the "younger guys".
As for Campoli, I think the best thing that ever happened to him was getting busted down to the minors and not called up for half a season in 2006/2007. He came into camp with an ego that has set Isles prospects in the past back years wrt development, and Nolan recognized that and took him down a few pegs. He had an injury, but wasn't recalled when he was healthy to send a message. When he was recalled, he came back with a mean streak and determination.
As is often said on this board, the story goes beyond the numbers. I don't think anyone will dispute that Campoli played a much more responsible overall game last year. He effectively converted former critics even on this board, so that should say something as well.
We agree Bergy looked good last year - and yes, I think Nolan had something to do with that. How much? Who knows, but for a first full NHL season, Bergy worked hard, got noticably better from the beginning of the year to the end, and earned his minutes. That's what Nolan was good at, imo. Getting players to work hard and earn their time.
Perhaps if Nolan had been here to put similar pressure on the last round of kids (Bertuzzi, McCabe, etc.) and make them earn their time instead of just guaranteeing them top minutes, they may have reached their potential here instead of elsewhere. But then again, maybe not. Really, it's all just opinion and speculation on our parts.
I should also add that I don't think Nolan was perfect. His loyalty to certain players that had previously earned their time and his trust (Dunham, Hilbert) was absolutely maddening at times. But show me a coach or manager in every sport that you agree with 100 percent of the time. I think Nolan's positives far outweighed the negatives. I understand that others don't feel the same, though I'm just as puzzled by their opinions as they probably are by mine.
Sorry for the novel, and no matter what, I guess it's probably time to move on, since no matter what any of us think, Nolan's not the coach here anymore.
Upstate ... I'm not saying I didn't agree with your premise ... I wanted to point out that the numbers put up by the kids you mentioned weren't stellar by any stretch ... As I've said .. I liked Nolan ... and players like Gervais and Camps were no longer prospects in my mind .. they were in their sink or swim years as far as I was concerned.
Still ... they are young and servicable ... and who knows if another coach would of gotten less ... equal .. or even greater production from them.
My point is that he didn't take any borderline players and turn them into All-Star caliber players ... till this Day I think Nolan was a really good coach ... and others have brought up the actual fact that it may be folly for the Isles to go with youth when even their own youth are a few notches below average versus their peers in other organizations ... that is the part that scares me ... and I'm sure it scared the bejeezuz out of Nolan too... that is why I'm consoled by the fact that Nolan wasn't really going to be hurt by leaving ... he gets his pay ... and will leave on better terms than he would of had this been left to brew.
It is some other coaches problem now ... and maybe Snow can find himself a taylor made coach that can do a better job than Nolan in developing kids beyond their potential... it is only something we can hope for. It's out of our hands.
Bottom line ...
Nolan has coached 4 years -
2 of those years he had an above .500 record and two of them he didn't ...why are we still having these same arguments about this guy as if he were Al Arbour or something?
I mean get over it ...his record and his history say he's a trouble maker who gets into it with GMs, which is why he was cast off for a decade and yet people here are fawning over this guy ...I mean some of you are talking like you wish you were Hasek's wife ...
Healy - As I recall, Comeau started out with just a shift here and here, but it wasn't long before the coach saw as everyone did that the kid had a lot of energy and found good spaces on the ice. On the other side, I don't recall Tambellini showing much of anything really. To me Jeff's problem is he's a small guy who lacks a single really outstanding weapon or tool he can rely on. Small guys who succeed in the NHL always have at least one thing they do great, ie. St-Louis's speed. We hear about Tambellini's wrist shot but I didn't see it. It's hard to know why that is. Guys with great shots usually show it pretty quickly, even from low percentage spots. Maybe his shot alone was enough in the minors but he lacks in other areas that would enable him to better utilize the shot in the bigs. Anyway, I think maybe that's how Nolan saw it.
Its hard to know exactly what a fair shot is either. Some think Tambellini got enough time and others think he hasn't. I agree with you about the St. Louis comparison. The guy's speed certainly makes up for his lack of ability to power through. Perhaps Tamby needs someone big to play with who can make him some space. Tamby does have a great shot but unfortunately the only time is shined was in the shoot out versus the Rangers at the end of the season. He ripped the puck past Lundqvist and it even got some Ranger fans to admire his shot. I guess thats the result of him having more time, he either needs to have the big linemate or learn how to use his time better.
I also enjoyed Comeau's puck possession. As much as I called Blake a puck hog, he ensured the Islanders had the puck in the offensive zone as opposed to the numerous broken plays and give aways we were treated to last season.
Once again FREI you have the grasp on what has happened and what will happen. Excellent post.
The consensus on all these boards and other is Quenneville SHOULD be the next islanders coach.
What is your opinion on a former Islanders interim coach Brad Shaw?
I seem to remember back before Nolan, Steve Sterling got the axe and Brad Shaw took over as coach to finish the season. I remember the team playing complete 60 minute games without taking shifts off. I enjoyed seeing the team playing hard and tough. I even had Ranger fans at work check them out and agreed they liked the way the team was playing then.
You predictions:
DP misses 10 games; YES
Witt misses 15 games; YES
Streit traded before the deadline; I don’t know about this one. He is signed long term, yeah; I know that does not mean anything in Islander country.
Original Islander fan from 1972.