T-Rock's Take: Inside the Giants

No, Shockey serves little purpose, always hurting, mentally weak. I would gladly swap him for Witten or Shiancoe at this stage in his career. He's a broken down valise with a me first attitude. So many holes, so little talent on this edition of Big Blue.

I didn't know Shockey had a me-first attitude. I don't recall one time him asking for "the damn ball."

But common sense has it: he needs to be involved early and often. You can't ignore him for half of the game, and expect him to get in the groove of catching balls late in the game.

Shockey is an important piece to this offense. If we had a Shiancoe on this team, other defenses would not double-cover him, which means it would be harder for Eli to get the ball to his other weapons.

Shockey is a true Blue. I find it funny how a few people are already calling for his head just because of a spiking penalty (may I add, it should have never been called; or it should have atleast been 1st & 15).

What's next? We're going to scream for David Diehl to get benched if he happens to give up a couple of sacks against Washington?

First it's Coughlin, then it's Eli, then it's Plaxico, and now it's Shockey.

Make up your minds. You're either with this team, or you're not.

ARTHUR!! ,

he constantly gets a pass by the organization and fans. hes SO OVERRATED!!!

I thought he would mature more this year.. He has butterfingers. he drops big play after big play. and I dont understand why fans love a guy who plays hard but doesnt produce like HE SHOULD and is so imature on the field is not even funny.

he works out in Miami and he must be drinking injury soda because he comes back hurt. and he shouldof caught that pass from Eli for a TD. It pisses me off when he doesnt help Eli sometimes with all the drops.

Shockey has EXCELLENT SIZE and SPEED and he chokes in the CLUTCH!!

I say we trade him for what we can get. Most overrated player in the league. Always hurt, cannot control his emotions (resulting in penalties) and drops too many easy balls.

ARTHUR!!,

Can you ask Tom tomorrow if hes considering making a change specifically at Safety?? i dont know how you would phrase the question for him but guys on Giants.com message boards are going crazy.

We want S Michael Johnson (6'2 212) start over Butler. We feel Butler cant cover or tackle and Michael Johnson is already a player the Giants are HIGH on and he impresses in preaseason with his tackling and speed, two things Butler lacks.

So we dont understand why he wouldnt try him NOW! nobody cares that hes a rookie. Butler is starting for the first time so thats rookie stuff even though hes been here a couple of years.

We at the message boards have calmed down on Aaron Ross because it looks like Tom will start him this week. But Ross idnt going to do it alone. Butler has to be benched. The Giants cut Demps and Reed 2 veterans because of Johnson.

Ross Wilson Johnson Madison

thats what we want ARTHUR!! Get us some info on that i dont care if you tell Tom i said it just get us some info on that safety spot. Butler is as bad as RW. its amazing he has great size and is so slow and cant tackle/cover.

Thanks ARTHUR! and im a suffering die-hard right now that is looking for answers. PLAY THE KIDS!!

J-Shock aint changing and the Giants won't trade him. There are way too many problems on this team(if you wanna call it that) to focus on one man. We'll see what happens Sun. when we take on an overconfident Redskin team that will overlook us. Shockey isn't the problem just b/c one stupid penalty. The problem is team moral is shot and the defense.

Great call Arthur. I hope Giants' management is having this debate internally. I've loved watching Shockey play, but the fact is it's been a long time since I remember watching him make a play that other tight ends can't make. His drops are a major problem. Two of them came on big 3rd downs Sunday (one of which would've been a TD) and his penalty negated another 3rd-down conversion. That's 3 drives he killed for our offense. That's huge over the course of a game, especially when the other team is keeping our offense off the field with long drives of their own. His performance is fine if he was being paid and treated like an average tight end, but if he is supposed to be one of the focal points of our offense, and is taking up the salary cap room of a pro bowler, he needs to be more dependable than he is. During the Sunday night game, Gates bailed out Rivers a ton of times by getting open and hauling in errant passes. Eli is not getting near as much help from Shockey.

Giants fans are really polarized on Shockey. I myself have a mixed attitude about him. I love the attitude he brings to the team and everytime he makes a big play, it seems to wake up our offense.

However, he doesn't make those big plays often enough. There's constant clamor to get him the ball more, but he does drop it a lot. He had a sure TD in the game this Sunday.

As a first round pick, you have to make those catches. As a Tight End picked that high, you are expected to have at least ONE 1,000+ yard or 10 TD season. He's not getting younger guys.

The thing that annoys me most about him is his disdain for blocking. I don't know if thats actually true or if its just what the media says, but I think its ridiculous if a player voices his dislike for doing something like that. Do you hear LaDanian Tomlinson complain when he has to block on some downs? Even Tiki, an even bigger coaching critic, worked hard on his blocking and never complained about that aspect.

If Shockey doesn't have that breakout season this season, I think its worth shopping him around. He may still be worth a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I wouldn't say 1st round pick, but then a lot of teams don't have dynamic tight ends so who knows.

Don't mean to change the subject but just a couple of daunting facts. May or may not be of importance.
- Giants 0-5 in 4:00 games last year.
- 5 straight losses at home.
- Last 3 games at home Saints 34 Giants 7
Eagles 36 Giants 22
Packers 35 Giants 13
Obviously no such thing as home field advantage at Giants stadium anymore. But hey, we beat Wash 34-28 last Dec. Oh....wait.....that was because of Tiki Barber. Makes ya feel pretty good about this Sunday does'nt it.

Great stuff GMEN, except for the fact that we play Washington in Washington Next week. Shockey is still a great player and does draw double coverage often. he drops too many passes but he also makes plenty of plays as well. provides an emotional lift to the team and in general, has a more positive effect than negative on the team. He could certainly improve his attitude and demeanor on the field, maybe concentrate a little more instead of trying to get on camera all the time. We knew what we were gettin when we drafted him out of MIAMI, remeber, MIAMI.
Solid player that if we try to trade we will not get anything close to equal or reasonable value for.

This team needs players, period. You'd be taking a guy who, let's face it drops a lot of big passes and causes more harm than good, and moving him for maybe a 2nd round pick. Assuming this team wins 3-6 games as I expect, having 3 picks in the first 2 rounds is a very inticing thought. This way you can take a Glenn Dorsey or a Kenny Phillips and then maybe the best LB on the board at the top of round 2. Plus, this team apparently is very high on Kevin Boss. Have him put on weight and start him next year.

Shockey makes plays but when we need him to make a BIG PLAY he DROPS the freaking ball and thats what seperates him from T.Gonzalez and A.Gates and T.Heap.

I suspect Reese may ship him out NEXT YEAR this season he isnt going anywhere.

Shockey's definitely worth keeping around for as long as he can play.

Despite his occasional brain farts (spiking the ball last week, for example) and drops, he brings incredible passion and heart to the game. He gives his all and never takes a play off. It's one of the reason's he's always nicked up. Still, what more can you ask of a player?

Shockey suffers in comparison to the sainted and sullen Mark Bavaro, who never said anything controversial. He never said anything at all. He's not Bavaro. As great as Bavaro was, Shockey's way better - athletically and statistically. He's also a rah-rah farmboy hick who's occasionally going to say something stupid or let his emotions get the best of him on the field. That's Shockey. We need to accept that.

Shockey's still one of the top 3 or 4 best TE's in the game and we'd be foolish to jettison him during his prime. It's not the 50's and 60's anymore people. Athletes act differently than they did then and some of you haters out there need to accept it.

I think much like Phil Simms, Shockey will only be truly appreciated after he's gone.

Besides, the defense and a lame-duck Coach are our biggest problems at the moment, not Shockey.

Didn't John Mara say something along the lines,"I wish I had 11 Jeremy Shockey's out there" at the end of last season? I dont think he's going anywhere. He's a pretty good player, but not a great player. Jim Fassel knew how to use Shockey and thats when he was at his best. I'm not sure Coughlin really knows how to use him. But then again, when he does get passes his way and he's suspect to dropping them. Either way,they arent 0-2 cause of him. With a decent defense, this offense could be one of hte leagues better ones.

Jeremy Shockey - Well I think you can sum him up about the same way that Crash Davis summed up Ebbie Calvin 'Nuke' Laloosh: "He's got million dollar talent and a ten cent head."

It's truly amazing that a man with that much talent has such little regard for doing the little things to become a champion. Honor, discipline, team...these terms seem foreign to him. When Eli throws a little wide of him, he cops an attitude. When he drops sure TD passes, he laughs it off.

While Campbell and Cooley got together in the...wait for it....OFFSEAON this year, they ran the fade pattern that went for a TD against Philly last night "hundreds of times to get the timing down", Shock was in Miami doing the South Beach Stomp.

So...is he worth keeping around? Well, at this point there is no option. Boss is not even close to being an NFL caliber TE, let alone a Pro Bowl caliber one. So yes. For now.

Shockey wants to think of himself as a piece of oak. Frankly, he's knotted pine with a 1/8 inch oak verneer and it's too bad for the Giants. Shockey couldn't lead starving men to food, let alone this football team. He's proven over and over again, he's all about Jeremy Shockey.

And John Bligh...spiking the ball isn't a 'brain fart'....it's the stupid act of a showboat who KNOWS that it's against the rules and will draw a penalty. A 'brain fart' is forgetting the snap count. He cost his team. And his response at the end of the game suggests he doesn't give a crap because as HE said "that's the way I play"

He's only been to four pro bowls in five seasons.

Shockey is one of the most over-rated players in the NFL. He doesn't make the big catches and he continually makes dumb mistakes. Get rid of him for whatever draft pick he can bring. Adequate tight ends are a dime a dozen, and that's all he is.

Jay - The Pro Bowl is pretty much a popularity contest. Shockey could go to a lot more of those and we'd still have losing seasons. TE Dallas Clarke on the Colts doesn't go to many pro bowls, but he blocks, gets open downfield, catches the ball when it gets to him, and doesn't commit stupid penalties.

Shockey is above average, that's all. The star treatment needs to stop. His cap money can be better spent.

Bonehead penalties aside, all the speed and power in the world doesn't buy the Giants anything if he can't catch and won't block.

If Shockey caught everything thrown at him, he would easily be in the top 3 of receiving tight ends. But he doesn't.

Two questions:

1) Was his catching ability this suspect at Miami and no-one noticed it (or thought it was fixable)?

2) Is it something that can be fixed?

If he was dropping passes at Miami, I don't think it can be fixed - look at McCareins on the Jets, a good guy with a good attitude, but hands of stone. If he could learn to catch, he would.

If he wasn't dropping passes at Miami, then someone on the Giants coaching staff needs to figure out what's different now. If it's the lack of offseason practice reps with Eli, then the next Giants coach needs to lay down the law, and management needs to back him.

If Shockey can't get better, or won't get better, then cut him loose.

Also: I think Sinorice Moss is the Oompa-Loompa version of Tim Carter.

Hm, that last comment was me. Not sure where my name went.

I think we all need to remember he didn't spike the ball he hit it out of his own hand and the delay of game penalty for that was called is new this season. The dropped touchdown pass is DEFINATLEY his fault but two of his other drops where in triple coverage with him getting hit I like to see him catch those either way but lets be responable here gotta keep him

Shockey is a great talent. He makes plays and energizes the team. He presents many mismatch problems for any defense. However, he doesn't always play smartly and often lets his emotions get the best of him. Its his energy and emotion that is a double edged sword. When harnessed properly it is a catalyst for the team,when it is allowed to run uncontained its problematic. Even though Shockey is a veteran, he needs a more structured environment. He needs an environment where veteran team leaders will help him harness those emotions properly. Instead he has become simply another clown in a circus that already has too many clowns.

I can't believe anyone would suggest that the Giants would be better without Shockey. Yes, the spiking penalty was a poor decision, but Shockey's mistakes are due to a strong desire to win. His emotions do get the better of him and he does need to learn how to reign that in, but man, if anyone on the defense had his passion we wouldn't have given up 80 pts. in two games. That's for certain. The guy plays hurt, plays tough, cares about nothing other than winning and quite frankly, the question shouldn't be whether on not he's of value to the Giants, but how can we get more guys like him.

I wanted him traded for a 2nd round pick at Draft time. Not because of the Penalties, But he's hurt every year except his rookie year and has way too many drops and shrugs them off. I also didnt like the way he and Plax showed up Eli last year. Trade him to Miami, He likes it there so much.

Arthur,I am glad you brought this up...

Jeremy Shockey has been one of my favorite players since we drafted him.But recently my thoughts on him have been changing..As fans we see the talent and the ability that he has, but he has not been translating that to the field,and As a fan that is very frustrating...
Wheter it is dropped passes,a bone-headed penalty,or complaing like a cry baby..His negative play seems to stick out more then his good play...
I never thought I would say this but Im almost at the point where Shockey might be hurting this team more then helping...But he still has time to change My, and most other Giants fans mind..Shockey if you want to be one of the best players in the league like you think you are,you can not drop that pass on the One yard line,that is unacceptable...CAn this guy ever make a big time play,or a big Time catch,Becuase I am not seeing it..All I see are droped passes,bone headed plays,and crying on the side line..Shockey its time to wake up,step up,and when this team needs a big play we expect you to make it..

Wow There is alot of dumb here. If half of the defense had the heart and the talent Jeremy Shockey had, we would be 2-0. The guy plays through injurys, and creates the biggest mismatches for our offense. Defensive Coordinators gameplan to stop him first, before Burress, before anyone. He blocks better then any of the tight ends you guys are throwing around up there and gives 100 percent effort when doing so. If we had a sparkplug like him on the ohterside of the ball, this silly debate would not even be a discussion right now. Its just because we are 0-2 and we have the media, looking for a hot story. His teammmates love him, and are quoted as saying he gets the team fired up.

If Shockey was utilized correctly, with the 15-20 seam route he so normally burns Roy Williams on, and they split him out wide instead of always having him line up in line, Shockey's stats would even be more productive then they already are.

One more thing, go look at his stats, by the age of 30 he'll be in every TOP 5 Statistical Tight Ends Receiving Category OF ALL TIME ...thats right, age 30. He drops the ball to much is also fiction, go look at the drops category and he actually is way below the average.

But dont let the FACTS get in any of your way.

why not bench him for a game or even a half? I think if you show him he's dispensible he might actually play like he did his rookie season and when he was at Miami. It's like he thinks he's untouchable, he doesnt work out with the team in the offseason, gets dumb penalties and then smiles on the sideline, drops big plays then just shrugs it off... If he realized that the G-Men were getting tired of his act and were serious about not taking it anymore I think you'ld see all that "passion" turn back into productivity.

Doug, it's not enough to say he doesn't have that many drops; the drops he *does* have are usually touchdowns or other critical situations. They kill drives and deflate the team, and we end up with field goals when we should have touchdowns.

Maybe the coaching staff just needs to start figuring out some more ways to get him open between the 20s (maybe they should watch the film from his rookie year), and then just use him as a decoy in the red zone, where he seems to have some kind of mental block.

Why are we even wasting our time and fingertips on this? Shockey is hands-down the best TE the Giants have had since Bavaro. Are you looking for him to apologize for being passionate? He's turned into a pretty good blocker in addition to everything else. He plays hurt ALL the dam time. Arthur, is your next food for thought to drop Pierce?

I don't have a problem with the emotions that cause occasional dumb plays. But he gets hurt a lot, and that is problematic.

Some of you are Unreal..

This is not whether or not Shockey plays with fire,or wheter Shockey is better then your average tightend,,Because he is..This is about Shockey not coming up with clutch cathces,Droping a 20 yarder in his hands week 1 that distroyed a critical drive,Dropping a critical pass against the packers on the One yard line after he had a stupid penalty again destroying a critical drive..You can not say this guy has not been a big dissapointment lately..Now if you want to grade Shockey along with your average tightend he has played fine,,But if you want to grade him as an elite player then you have to say he has played below average,,Maybe we have to face it, that Shockey might just be a slighly above average Tightend....An not an Elite Player..And dont tell me we have to get him more involved, because I have counted at least 55 yards he has missed out on, do to drops so far this season...Face it he has to play better..GET REAL....

Im also tired of this he plays hard and has passion BS.

What is that worth when he cant stay HEALTHY?? and

when HE IS healthy he acts STUPID and drops CLUTCH plays!! he is SO OVERRATED! hes not as good as we make him out to be. every week people cry about getting him involved but he drops every big play

thats why Eli trust Toomer so much when he needs a big play

I think I would be willing to part with about 10 of the 11 starters on defense before I part with Shockey. They are the ones costing this team games. Even if Shockey makes those catches, which he shoulda have without question, does anyone here honestly believe the defense would not have blown that game? As if getting rid of Shockey will solve this team's defensive woes. It wouldnt matter if John Mackey was playing TE;the defense would still stink. Wait.... Tuck doesnt start so make that all 11 defensive players.

the hold steady rule.

which better tight ends in the league can we get? If any of you think Shockey is not one of the better tight ends in the league, you are crazy.

WE wouldnt get a first round pick for him or really anything in my mind that compensates for the value, and he does play hard. He catches passes over the middle and gets tatooed by 2-3 defenders everytime he touches the ball. He has calmed down alot, and the penalty he got last game shouldnt be having everybody cry to trade him.

I used to always give Shockey a free pass because of his effort. No more.

Just when he has the chance to redeem himself for his 10-cent brain that negated his first-down catch, he fails to use his million-dollar talent to make a clutch catch. Everyone wants to say this didn't cost the Giants the game; I say you never know how the game would have turned out had they taken a 14-7 lead there.

Shockey's drops always seem to come at critical times -- ever remember a Bavaro drop in a key spot? -- and his fiery nature, although contagiously enthusiastic, is not tempered enough for the NFL. In fact, I kind of feel like he's a pariah in the minds of NFL officials considering he always seems to be getting called for penalties (holding, offensive P.I., personal fouls) and NEVER gets them called in his favor even though there's illegal contact against him EVERY TIME he runs a pattern down the field.

As an aside, Arthur, I was hoping you could answer a question I had about the ruling on that Shockey ball-punching episode. According to Troy Aikman and Jack Buck during the broadcast, this "ball-spiking" is a dead-ball, after-the-play foul. Then they said that because there was a penalty on Green Bay, the penalties offset. That means that the Giants actually were punished because of a Green Bay penalty; without it, they would have had a first down at the Green Bay 23, five yards back from where Shockey was tackled. That doesn't make any sense to me.

As an additional note, go watch the tape of that game and you will see that on the Packers' next possession following a sack or a tackle of Favre near the left sideline, Favre actually throws the ball into the ground -- it easily could have been interpreted as a spike -- and yet nothing was called.

Home-field officiating? Not. Home-field advantage for the G-men? Definitely not. They're worse at Giants Stadium than the Mets are at Shea.

Arthur,
I work downtown and was too at the same show over by 7 WT. You happen go to the M. Ward show last night? I missed it and had to work late. Hold Steady was definitely very solid, Old 97's was ok (did you think their front man spent time at 'Band Camp' with some of those extremely generic guitar moves/kicks?)

On to a Giants question: Haven't heard much from Coughlin on Eli, how's his shoulder feeling after making that tackle? I don't think he came back in after that.

Yo!!! I like him, but he does drop the ball a lot and the last 2 years the bad has outweighed the good.

Let's be honest in what TE's are better then Shockey? Right now this guys are:

Heap
Whitten
Gates
Clark
Gonzalez
Cooley
maybe Crumplier, but he is hurt now.

He is a top 10 guy, but he is not better then these guys.

Espo; I'm not sure what your on, but whatever it is, I want some.

Arthur - great question. Ask the same one about Plaxico. I tend to think you would get a similar response.

Shockey is good. He is a weapon. Accorsi always said that the first player teams asked him about as far as availability was Shockey.

I know its frustrating as a fan to see him make bone head plays like spiking the ball. I agree. But, lets face it, we need him. I'm not sure what you could get for him either. You can't really get mad at a player for trying. He doesn't drop those balls on purpose. The mental errors are what drive me insane. He seems to make excuses for himself that he shouldn't. We don't care that Wes Weilker spiked the ball in the Pats game and didn't get flagged for it. WE care that he cost us field position and a good chance to score in the game.

All in all, we have to keep him. He plays with such fire and heart that its nice to see. I wish all players played like he did, just w/o the stupid mental errors that come along with him...

Shockey's new nick name: Drive Killer. He rarley makes the big catch. He has more drops than anyone on this team. It amazes me he is still on the Giants. All these great or soon to be great TE coming out of college, Shockey is still here. He probably is the best after the catch TE in the game. The problem is, he drops so many passes, does it really make a difference.

O.k. Enough of this Shockey-sh!t Arthur, What the hell should Coughlin do about thee worst D in the NFL? What about Kiwi? What about Strahan's noshow ass, 'cause J-Shock is'nt going to save this team from a sure 2 or three win season.

KC-you are telling me Shockey has been playing better for the last 2 years then those guys? Those guys have more drops, more flags against them, has played less games because of injuries, are worse blockers, and so on...

I never said he isn't a weapon or anything. I am just saying these other TE's are better.

Well, I've read ALL these comments. It's simple. His first few years under Fassel, in particular, year 2, were PHENOMENAL. He was EASILY one of the top two TE in football, along with GOnzalez. THEN, he learned to block, so he became very complete.

Look - the past few years, I can't recall how many times (I myself, in my head) and the announcers (EVERY GAME Madden, and allll announcers in general) have CONSTANTLY, CONSTANTLY said the same thing about our offense - WHY DON'T THEY GET SHOCKEY INVOLVED EARLY ON - he sets the tone??? It's not like he isn't open. Doesn't ANYONE watch the games? we like to rag on all the announcers, but I got news for ya, sometimes...they know what they're talking about!

Remember the past few years - while Tiki was doing his thing, all coughlin and co. had shockey do was block half the game. And, when they did call his name, his patters were never across the middle of the field. Do'nt you remember how many times the camera would pan to him getting all pissy b/c he was wide open!? There is NO LINEBACKER IN FOOTBALL THAT CAN COVER HIM! I agree, his missed catches kill me, but the reality is, as a former player myself, when you know you're only getting 1-2 chances a game, (and I can't imagine being like this guy, and KNOWING what he is capable of) it puts an incredible amt of pressure on you, when alllll you want to do is help the team. Think about the expectations he puts on himself!? I don't appreciate his antics, but I LOVE his passion. One thing for sure - there is NO Tight End in the game that breaks tackles like him - he is the ONLY ONE that SEEKS defenders out, which makes me nervous, but ya gotta love! Maybe its not the smartest thing, but he's fighting for the extra yards to help the team win! He will NEVER give up. He's a warrior.

End analysis - if he was being used like he was in his best years, in particular, under fassel, would we really care about one dropped pass a game? I think not. It's IN THE CLUTCH as you all like to say, b/c they hardly throw to the friggin guY! Now that Tiki is gone, answer for me ONE QUESTION! WHO IS OUR BEST THREAT OVER THE MIDDLE? Honestly. SEriously. Think about it? WHO!?!? SHockey. period. That's it, guys. Occassionally, our receivers go over the middle, but there is NO YAC with our receivers over the middle. Let's make this fair.

1) He drops balls but he rarely gets his number called so they are magnified
2) The giants have never, ever, ever had an offensive player who was talented 'set the tone' the way he can when involved - over the last 30+ years. Perhaps Phil could, but that's about it. While I don't condone his outbursts, pouting, etc. it's hard to criticize when there is so much positive to think about when he is involved. I mean, the stadium and the game is ELECTRIC when he is involved, which leads me to my last point
3) shouldn't we REALLY be mad at the coaching staff, that CONTINUES to not find ways to use him, in particular, now that Tiki is gone? Ugh.

Just think of the numbers Shockey could put up if he were playing AGAINST the Giants.

"Quirky and charismatic?'' I like that.