Point needs to be made
The point guard position will likley be a topic of debate through the preseason -- and possibly into the regular season. And maybe all the way to the summer, when the Phoenix Suns have to decide whether or not to pick up Steve Nash's $13 million option.
Logical thinking says they will do that, but will they offer him a two-year extension, which he is seeking. Nash recently said he hopes to play until 2012. I was talking with a couple of basketball people at the Air Canada Centre last night and they both agreed that Nash's two favorite alternatives -- should things not work out with his top choice, Phoenix, of course -- would be Toronto or New York.
But he'll be 36 by then and even though Nash keeps himself in great shape, he'll be in the twilight, for sure. And the most any team could expect to get out of him would be two years, the second perhaps in more of a backup role. But his presence as a mentor in the system that made him a two-time NBA MVP (or was it the player that made the system so good?) would still be valuable.
You know what? Let's not even go there...at least not yet.
But as much as Mike D'Antoni has been countering questions about the point guard position by saying the system doesn't really rely on one guy running the offense -- sure looked that way in Phoenix -- the first sneak peek at the Knicks version of the Sun-n-Gun saw some issues at the point. Chris Duhon, who was brought in to fill the facilitator role, struggled with a lot of fundamental mistakes that led to 7 alarming turnovers.
It wasn't as if he was throwing the ball away, but more like CYO-level issues such as traveling and carrying the ball. And we're going to see him get a lot of open looks as he did against the Raptors last night. He shoots well in practice, but in the game he was 1-for-7 and 1-for-5 from three-point range.
Duhon, who did have some positive stats, such as 10 rebounds and 6 assists, admitted he had some jitters in his first game. "Just trying to do everything perfectly and trying to do everything right," he said. "Trying not to make mistakes and when you play like that, you make mistakes. It was a learning experience.”
Don't look now, but Nate Robinson was the guard with the cleanest game last night. He had 16 points off the bench in 27:20 along with 4 rebounds and 3 assists. The best number of all was the big, fat zero in the turnover column.
He didn't shoot well, either (6 of 15 and 2 of 7 from downtown), but Nate did a lot of intangibles, such as hawking Jose Calderon up the floor to slow him down. He was getting killed on the high screen-and-roll, which Calderon has mastered.
Some of you might start taking up the cause for Stephon Marbury (join the Starberman revolt!), but while he had some very good moments -- he can still do what he do: head down, get to the rim -- Stephon struggles with off-the-ball defense (who doesn't on this team) and he has a lot of old habits to break, such as standing still and watching after making a pass. Steph didn't take many shots (2-for-4) in his 22:06, but he got to the line 7 times and hit 5. His assists to turnovers (3-5) wasn't pretty.
The notion that his pick-and-roll ability makes him a perfect fit for this system is misguided. Steph is better suited for a team that has an athletic big that he can work off of, similar to how Calderon plays off Bosh on that high screen they ran over and over again. But in D'Antoni's system, there are so many options that the same play can look different even if you run it 10 straight times. It's not just about running fast, it's about thinking fast. Right now, Nate is the one point guard on the team who is thinking as fast as the game is being played.
Twenty turnovers is always a concern. Twelve of them were made by Duhon and Marbury, which means for the most part, the rest of the team played clean. I think 29 assists is an encouraging number, especially when you look at see that Zach Randolph, Mr. Black Hole himself, dished out five and the starting back court had 13 (Crawford had 7).
The shots from three-point range will fall. After missing the first 12, the Knicks finally started knocking them down to finish 8 of 34. The fact that they got off 34 threes is a good sign.
And yes, the game was close, but don't lose sight of the fact that the Raps yanked their starters in the fourth quarter. The Knicks were going neck-and-neck with the likes of Jason Kapono, Will Solomon, Roko Ukic and Kris Humphries (big put-back dunk in the fourth). Bosh hit a lot of perimeter stuff and damn he looks good. (2010! 2010!) Jermaine O'Neal looks a little, um, swollen. And slow.
But for the Knicks, this is a work-in-progress, for sure. A little more than a week in, there's some progress. But, like David Lee said, there's still a long way to go.
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Comments (54)
One observation from last night (and I know it's early): The Knicks gotta do everything they could to keep Lee.
Watching him last night, this guy is just a winning player. You could tell that he put in a ton of work in the offseason to get ready for D'antoni's fast paced game. If the Knicks are ever able to bring in a superstar player, he's the kind of role guy you need to put you over the top. He's the kind of guy who might never be an all star, but could be a finals MVP if he's on the right team.
That said, I also gotta give props to Zach, who unexpectedly looked pretty good out there moving himself and the ball around. It's too bad his contract is such a cap-killer.
I'm with you Matt. I'm down to keep him as long as he doesn't demand ridiculous $$. Although if he averages 20, 10 like that he'll definitely seek that.
Alan - great points on the points. Duhon looked very shaky and Marbury is still Marbury - great one on one skills and able to attack the rim, but hopeless in a complicated offense and gone after this season at the latest. Nate is intriguing - watching him grow in this offense will be fun. I've always liked him in spite of his bouts of immaturity, and I'd love to see him come into his own. This guy has never had a defined role in a stable system, and D'Antoni's approach seems tailor made for him. Looking at the guards ahead of him on the depth chart you have to think its all there for him - he just has to make it happen.
Lee looks great, but apart from finally adding that jumper (so it seems after one exhibition) he's mainly doing the things he's always done. He shoots at a tremendous percent, rebounds well, runs the floor, doesn't hold the ball too long] - he isn't flashy, but statistically, the case can be made that he is the Knicks best player. Its just that now he is getting the minutes he deserves rather than being stuck behind Isiah's high priced fat guys. If he keeps starting, he'll blow up this year. I also like the chemistry that seems to be there between Lee and Zach.
Overall, it was nice just to see the Knicks run some offense - lots of pick and roll, some motion. I'm curious to see if guys like Crawford, who has some skills, improve their floor games playing under under consistent conditions for a real coach.
Zach did look extremely good, he passed well too which was impressive... Hey, if Curry cant get right, maybe he is the one you trade... On another note I think its way too early to kill Duhon, it was his 1st game as a Knick... I recall what Sprewell, LJ, and Houston looked like when they joined the Knicks... It wasnt pretty, it takes a little time to adjust to this stage... I wasnt mad at his effort, just his mental lapses running the O... He was horrible, I agree... But what upset me the most was not Mike keeping Steph on the pine, because frankly I thought he didnt play well either... But how can you not play Mardy after how good he looked in summer league, and training camp... I mean, how do you justify benching him and playing Roberson, I definitely had a problem with that....
marbury was fine, he drove and kicked and Duhon and Crawford missed on his assist attempts 2 times each, thats 4 assists you could add to his total, if they made their shots. Marbury is by far better than duhon, and Nate is supposed to be the spark plug. No need for duhon. Its a bad signing because nothing was EVER wrong with our PGs! Isiah couldn't coach. How come Isiah never played Chandler? Marbury was fine. He used to go to the line 10 times a night on Phoenix-NJ. You saw his lightning quickness and explosive first step last night. Crawford? invisible. Start Marbury. He passed and moved the ball, he didn't stand up and not move, to my knowledge, I'll be watching it again. Marbury should start. Zach and Lee were strong all night.
Pick and rolls? The Knix ran pick and rolls??? Their the most stunning achievement in ages! Don't remember them running any in the last 5 years. Maybe D'Antoni is a genius afterall. Who sez u can't teach these New Knix any trix? Was J-Snax involved in any? If Eddy Curry can do this, he might actually be worth his weight....can't wait to find out...he could make this team into something.
DTR
it is interesting that you've got 3 more rotation guys that will be in play soon -- jeffries, gallo and curry.
somethin's gotta give. other than rose, who got PT last night, which of the rotation players who played last night gets benched when these 3 are ready (assuming this is our roster for opening night)?
the knicks are the deepest bad team ever. i think they have more marginal nba starters/'first guy off the bench's than anyone else in the league.
Jamal Crawford's game looked real weak last night. Playing for IT, he had free reign to go 1 on 1. Now he has to play team ball. Let's see how quick he adjusts.
Jamal Crawford's game looked real weak last night. Playing for IT, he had free reign to go 1 on 1. Now he has to play team ball. Let's see how quick he adjusts.
Crawfords game was fine how did he look weak when he led players on both teams with 7 assists ?
Chris Duhon had 10 boards and 6 assists and the turnovers are expected this early but if people knew these players games they would know that Duhon has always had great a/t ratio. he is not turnover prone at all.
With it being the first game and all its ignorance to make so many declarations of good or bad .because when the ball goes live in 3 weeks we know it tends to be totally different than how you saw it the first game of the preseason.
Luke do you actually watch these games or are you just a number crunching accountant. Duhon looked terrible last night. How anyone could watch that game and defend Duhon is beyond me. Maybe he will be better, maybe it was just nerves, but from WATCHING the game, it is obvious that Marburry and Nate are the better PGs right now. And don't tell me its the new system, they are all learning the new system.
Marburry is the best Knick at getting to the line. I think we may have found the perfect role for him. Sixth man off the bench for instant offense. He isn't a leader and its tough to pay a bench guy 20 mil, but hey, it will help the team. Nate has the better shot and looked better on D last night than Duhon. He also moved better w/o the ball. I would start him, especially if you already have Steph coming off the bench. Use Duhon in defensive situations when big guards are killing Nate. I warned you all about Duhon. How good would Arroyo have looked in this system with Chris Anderson blocking shots at the 4/5?
Also, I have been calling for months for Gallo used as a 2/3 off the bench. If his shot is as good as advertised, he could be a valuable resource for the team based on the new style of play. I hope anyway. Stop this nonsense about using him as a 4.
On a positive note, the team looked good against a playoff team last year. I love the new style, and as D'Antoni told Bayless, the car just needs an engine (i.e. PG). Zach and Lee are much better suited than Curry (yup again I called it) especially since Curry is too fat to even tie his own shoes and Zach is making an effort to pass. Zach also looked better to me on D than I expected. We are going to give up a ton of points but the style of play is better than anything we have had in a long long time. Zach and Marburry will be more marketable going into the trade deadline. Maybe even Q as well. Chandler may one day be an all-star. I know that sounds crazy but he and Nate are absolutely perfect for this system. Crawford is really going to have to adjust his game. Honestly, trying to trade him for Michael Redd or Vince Carter might make allot of sense but it is just the first pre-season game so I'll give him (not Duhon) the benefit of the doubt. 35 wins is a real possibility.
I dunno about you guys but I think Nate and Will should start.
Nate, Craw, Chandler, Lee and ZBO should be our starters opening night. These are the 5 I think are best suited to run the system. Duhon is no answer at PG.
The bench would be Duhon, Steph, Q, Gallo and Jeffries (obviously once those 2 are healthy).
Watching last nights game was encouraging. It looks like they all want to play together and turn this thing around.
How the heck does Curry have a place in this system ? The fat man gotta go.
All in all its a good start.............GO NY GO NY GO !!!!!!
Jeffires would be awesome at the 5 in this system.
PS - Alan you need more live chats, helps my day at work go by faster.
All you lucky guys who saw the game... Good to know that there were a lot of positives. From the box score, 7 of the 9 guys who played significant minutes got into double figures. That is just great. 29 assists!!! - man, this team is on the right track. And to think that we are still missing 3 significant players, it all is looking very encouraging for the upcoming season.
I will ignore all the negatives for now since this was the first pre-season game. I will reserve judgement for at least 2 more weeks.
BTW, was the game close at the end of the 3rd quarter?
K4L
I watched the entire game
he had 10 boards from the point guard spot
he still had 7 assists
He had turnovers but his history shows he has one of the best assist to turnovers ratios in the league so I dont understand why you feel he should need to be "defended" after the first preseason game .My question to you is why would you attack him or anyone else after the first preseason game to a degree that anyone who says differently you would feel is defending him ?
Marbury and Nate are better scorers than Duhon but everyone knows this going in and its not what you want from the pg right now.You certainly dont take that over leadership and unselfish play and good decision making..They are all learning the new system but he is also getting to know all of his new teammates unless you think 8 days is enough .
Defensively I thought they all did a good job on Calderon overall as he normally gets a ton of easy baskets against us . but not last night.
Overall I thought everyone looked looked together although individually there is a lot of fine tuning to be done .but they looked like a team and in the first preseason game thats what wanted to see.
Crawford led the team in assists why would he have to change his game.Hes always been a player willing to take what the defense gives him and pick his spots.The give and go to Chandler was sweet and he looked to make a concerted effort to move the ball and make the extra pass.The guy took 17 shots a game last year and only took 9 last night but led the team in assists.He tied for the 5th most shots and right now thats huge because you are trying to build trust amongst the team which makes the 29 assists even sweeter . Much like last year he paces himself considering how many minutes hes going to play
I dont get why so many cry about players being selfish and yet rip them if they dont get the numbers they want even as early as the first preseason game.
I could over analyze this first game to death but as a diehard basketball fan I know its only the first game of the preseason .
I agree with you John about those players being best for the system. Problem is that Chandler and Lee can't shoot. Playing them extended minutes together could be a problem. Plus that is a really young team with no leader. For all of Qs bad attributes, when healthy he can shoot, and he can be a leader on the floor, pulling the team together, making sure they run the plays, and calling out players who are playing selfishly (hence, why he and Steph hate each other). I would switch Q and Chandler and have Marburry and Chandler be the first two off the bench. Curry and Duhon can play extended minutes based on matchups. I can't make a judgment on Gallo's minutes yet and Jeffries I defer to Alan on. I think he stinks and his lack of a J makes him useless in this system but Alan has seen him play in it and seems to have confidence he should be a starter. I heard how great he looked last year too but we shall see.
Key things to remember:
1) This is the FIRST preseason game!!!!!!
2) No way Eddy play significant mins unless he spends a ton more time on the bike
3) Steph does and always will dribble too much
4) Rebounding, passing, defensive PGs are good - I know we're all used to matador, ball hogs - takes some getting used to.
5) Lee and Zbo complement each other well. Like Zbo's passing and aggressiveness on rebounds...Lee is all over the place on O, rebounding, tipping balls out for 2nd opps
6) Crawford just needs time to find himself - he's quick, if he uses it like Nate is...eveything will fall into place
7) NOTE: Shot Blocker still needed! Hopefully, Jeffries heals quick & can fill the role.
K4L,
I think Chandler has a decent mid range game and goes to the rack hard. Its time for either Nate or JC to pick up the leadership role and let Q become the bench leader. Lee's shot is improving every day and he and Chandler are options 4 and 5 anyway. I think the starting 5 I previously mentioned is a good mix of D and O and thats what we were lacking w/ last years debacle.
Luke, good point about Crawford getting assists but I think we need a 2 guard who is more of a spot up type guard (Redd, Ray Allen) or/and can finish on the break (Carter). I'm not thinking about contracts just the type of player who from the 2 spot might make a better fit. Crawford's shot is extremely streaky and this system seemed more premised on ball movement and hitting open shots then one-on-one play which is Crawford's strength. But I said it is one pre-season game, he may make those adjustments to his game. He has had to adjust his game before and has done it so I'll be patient with him.
My prediction on Duhon is that he will show flashes but he is not the answer at PG. You cite his stats in Chicago where he played in a 2 Pg guard system in Chicago with Hinrich and a non-free wheeling style under Skiles. Hinrich handled the ball much more than he did. The PG here has a ton of freedom and he had allot of turnovers lost night. That worries me, but I agree its early. I have seen him play since college. Trust me on this, you aren't a playoff team or a team striving for championship with Chris Duhon as your starter. It would be completely irrational for me to judge him on one pre-season game, I agree. But I'm not, I'm judging him based on Duke, Chicago, and now his first pre-season game. He can be a solid player when motivated, but not my NY Knicks starting PG.
My problem with citing stats is you can pretty much use them to justify anything. If you blindly cite stats Randolph is the best PF in Knicks history and Steph the best PG. If I cite you Steph's stats, he should be the Knicks starting PG right now, which we all know would be a terrible mistake. Curry averages 5 rbs per game but we all know he may be the worst rebounder in the NBA. Citing 10 rebounds for a PG is like saying Curry had 15 steals. Who cares, That is not what you want from your PG spot. Having your guards crash the boards is helpful, especially since this team has bigs who have trouble getting defensive rebounds, but I'm not going to judge Marburry, Duhon, or Nate based on rebounds. Lets see how they shoot, manage the team, and take care of the ball. Team assists should also be a baramoter, but I think ball movement is a better indicator. On defense, I'm more concerned with how much effort they exude in disruptnig the other team's offense than how many points the other PG scores b/c we all know how terrible our bigs are at helping on screens and pick and rolls. Maybe Duhon exceeds expectations, for right now though I say Nate is the answer until the 2009 draft.
Hey Alan,
I don't know if you ever get an idea from your mods about what your international audience is like (fixer universe?) but just thought I'd say hi again from gloomy ol' England.
Gotta say I am getting excited about this season already... I have got to put up with the dropping exchange rate, higher cost of flying and ticket hikes, but I can't wait to see what coach D can do with this team... especially Nate who I will bet anyone will be an all-star within three years.
You raised a really valid point about the style being more than just running and gunning... I suggest 'thinking and sinking' may prove to be even more important.
Men...it's the 1st pre-game...we are seeing good things. Give Duhon a break......be realistic for a second....let the guy play some ball...I've been through the wars with you guys but are we really a fan base of little cry babies and worriers? Dantoni said he's not worried...lets trust him..he's the real deal...I've been a fan since Pat Cummings, Louis Orr, Darell Walker were gracing the television with their skills. We had BK and that was it! So I understand the frustration...but its the 1st game...be happy we have a coach that is legit.
I agree with nostraDANus. let us not become a knicks nation of whiners.
cant wait to see gallo play though.
I always wondered if last years problems were just poor coaching fro IT and the SM issues?
Now we have a great oach who is trying to improve and blend these talents into a TEAM!
It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out?
They all seem to know that they have a real opportunity to start over, improve and make themselves and us NYK fans proud.
The serial losers, misfits and fat cats will be moved outa here in due time!
Nobody is saying Duhon is better than Marbury as a player (we all know this) but for our team we had enough of his same old thing...that is why we need him to be 6th man or some other team...
With My Own Eyes
Knicks Overall
Sometimes it is clear they get it. The ball moves very quickly and crisply. The primary break looks nice off steals and rebounds. Rose and Lee can get the ball up the court fast. Yes, "Walk em up Rose" is very accurate with the full court passes. They will get better and their conditioning will get better.
Defense, a little. Slow on switches. No interior defense because they are too small; but effort is there. Perimeter defense: non-existent. Teams with good big mid-range shooters and perimeter shooters will wipe floor with Knicks early in year. The Boshes and DIrks of the world rejoice. That will not change in 82 games.
Conclusion: A work in progress. Improved from last year.
Players
Lee -- I bet D'Antoni likes him now. One of three best players on the floor (Haters) because he is in constant motion. He sets picks, moves to the basket, passes deftly. He has developed a mid-range jumper. Practice, practice, practice. He was even moving his feet laterally with some skill. He needs to be extended.
Robinson -- He needs an extension too. Forget poor defense - he will get burned because he constantly cuts under the pick and is small. But he has other attributes: athletic and smart. Fills passing lanes, deceptive hops, fast. He was the spark plug on this team two years ago and last summer and now we act like he's a surprise.
Duhon -- Yes, he sucked. Yes, he will get at least a little better. He is tentative and fails to anticipate defenders in the passing lanes. He had little confidence in a bad shot. D'Antoni's confidence will give him confidence. I reiterate what I said during the summer -- this is a great opportunity for Mardy. I bet he would beat Duhon out if given an equal chance.
Marbury -- He's gotta go. Best individual talent on team. Should play one-on-one. Does not run offense most of the time. Much better when Duhon and Nate were on the floor. Ignores most of Lee's picks in favor of faking and forcing action against the pick and splitting players. He tends to walk the ball up so that Knicks aren't even in secondary break before defense sets.
Zach -- awesome. Phenomenal down low as rebounder and scorer. Works very well with Lee. Has great confidence in Robinson's shot/abilities. Last year lacked confidence in his teammates and would not pass. Now he only stutter steps once before passing. He will give the ball to Nate. Interior defense poor -- can't really defend, too small. But knows how to get the bounds and make an outlet pass.
Crawford -- did not make an appearance. Seems a little lost except on the break.
Rose -- can't believe he's playing, but he has some skills. He's walking up the court, but he has the best outlet pass on the team. He still gets away with that tired pull the chair move.
Chandler -- no opinion. Talented. Could benefit from a better defensive scheme. no opinion for now. Loved his speed though.
Roberson -- bag him. He's got to hit threes. Richardson is the best three point shooter on the team. He's good , but that is not good.
Conclusions -- all conclusions are interim as the situation is fluid. It is up to Duhon to make Walsh look good. Walsh should be happy that the Clipper deal for Zach fell through. Gallinari's shooting skills will come in handy by mid-season. Knicks will be fun to watch in loss after loss.
Here's my question - can you start Nate, despite his obvious shortcomings (pun very much intended) in size? I mean, he'd be post up central, which concerns me.
You can't start Marbury. Whoever said it above is right - instant offense off the bench. He's not a leader either, and you need that leader on the floor.
But if your two options are Nate and Duhon to start, can you sacrifice size to put the better player on the floor, and use Duhon as a swing guard behind Nate, Marbury and Crawford?
I mean, I'm not saying Nate is full time starter material, I don't think he's that kind of all pro PG. But until we get someone better in that spot, I think he'd do just fine running the offense. He clearly has bought into the system and is working hard. Duhon is too, to be fair, but if you can deal with Nate being undersized, why not let him run the floor with the starters, and see what happens.
Unlike Duhon, you can't leave Nate open, and you certainly can't get up too close because he'll blow by you. So give the man the rock, and let him start, and see what happens.
lets trade curry, marbury, rose, jeffries, and james for derrick rose. what do you think????
Exactly what I'm saying Brian. For all who saw the game last night we are not going to beat anyone with Defense, we are going to have to outscore people. Period. Nate is the best option there. Our defense will come from pressuring the ball up the court, constant trapping and gambling in passing lanes. If we get caught in a 1/2 court game not only does Nate get killed on the post, but so does Zach, Lee, and Crawford. We have to push the tempo and Nate is best suited for that. If the rationale for starting Duhon is he is the better 1/2 court defender, good luck with that.
Nice job Lives, but be careful, if we extend both Nate and Lee we won't have cap room in 2010. I could care less about the 2010 plan but Walsh does and he will have some tough decisions to make. Your being too hard on Steph (did I just say that); he did a good job of getting to the line and had some nice kick-outs.
Not surprising. Haters need someone to hate.
Knicks4Life, I strongly believe the 2010 plan is a myth. It will be almost impossible for the Knicks to field a decent team for 2010 and get under the cap. The numbers do not work. The Knicks' best bet will be a sign and trade (maybe some magic the previous year that gives them a trade exception or something). If I'm wrong, I would really like to see how it can get done. Anyone care to try to work it out?
As I stated a while ago, I like Bosh over Wade but Bosh has stated that he really likes Toronto. Rats. As we get closer to 2010 expect the LeBron dream to fade -- Cleveland has not only embraced LeBron but has gone out of its way to embrace his team of friends/family members. I expect LeBron's loyalty to win out. It's about relationships baby and J-Zay won't have a New York Stadium in 2010,
Yeah, I may sound a bit hard on Steph. I did not expect him to be here on October 29th. But, I watched the game a second time just to get a better sense of what Steph was doing on the floor. No doubt he is a natural talent. No doubt. But Steph didn't have that many clean kick-outs. Go back to the tape. A couple of things happen that shouldn't in this offense when he is on the floor as the point.
1)The defense get's set in a half-court defense like last year. No player on the Knicks should be better on the primary or secondary break than Steph.
2) Three-four guys are stationary on the perimeter waiting for his move. (not toally his fault because the bigs should be moving like Lee to set picks).
3) He goes against the pick which I think is no small thing. I may be wrong, but the pick is not just to free him up for an easier shot, it is also to free up his teammate who will be slipping to the basket. But this is the problem with going away from the pick. While he is slightly beating his man with the first step, he is also attracting the second defender who is not subject to the pick. He loses the option of passing to the player that would have been slipping because he is being trailed by two defenders. Fortunately, he is strong enough so that he may get fouled. But he also tries to split the defenders which is when he loses the ball,
Now, I may have done a poor job of describing what needs to be done, but D'Antoni's offense is heavily reliant upon screens, player movement and spacing. I don't think Steph is the one and yesterday he did not show that he was any better overall than Duhon.
Sure Marbury can get and do better; but the point is that Marbury intends to play how Marbury wants to play and D'Antoni knows it.
Alan, please ask D'Antoni if his point guards are running the system the way he wants it run. I would be interested in his response.
I heard their gunna Sign Penny Hardaway,Problem solved..Penny's Back!!!!
I think its important to remember that for this season, none of the point guards are considered long term solutions. Lives in NJ - I completely agree with your assessment of Marbury's failings as a floor leader, and his propensity to overhandle/hang on to the ball too long has been a shortcoming his whole career. If only a quick first step was all that an NBA point guard needed (pretty much the only thing Marbury's defenders ever offer up in his defense is that he penetrates well... yippee). Duhon has to play better - if what we saw last night was the extent of his game, he'd be out of the league. But his upside is limited and his place in Walsh's future plans is clear from his short contract.
Why not try Nate if Duhon doesn't get it together? His defensive limitations are somewhat mitigated by the fact that most point guards are not natural post up players, and teams that go out of their way to attack a shorter PG in this way often wind up disrupting their own offense. He's also strong enough to hold position and quich enough to stay in front of his man.
Besides, if Zach has discovered passing...
that's "quick", not a no caps Q-Rich
Everybody that's getting on Duhon needs to relax. It was his first game.....PERIOD!! There should be nothing more to say about it. What did you expect him to do? Sure he had 7 TO's but he also had rebounds and assists. You know what his assist to to ratio is so you know what you saw last night is not how he normally plays. Anybody that thinks different doesn't know Duhon's game. He is the best option we have at PG in this Dantoni system. On one hand you praise Donnie Walsh...and then ya'll turn right around and act like he doesn't know what he's doing. Who do you think has the inside track and the best knowledge to know whether Duhon is the best option? It sure as hell ain't us bloggers. If I had a choice on whether or not to trust Dantoni or trust people here (not everybody) on whether or not Duhon should start....think I'll trust Dantoni.
You would think the way some of these cats talk that they attend every Knicks practice. How do you know who's the best option. It's not about who's the best player. We all know Steph is better than Duhon as a PLAYER!! As a PG....I give it to Duhon.
Anyway, I got this off of realgm about Steve Nash
When it was observed that Steve Nash almost seemed more comfortable running the half-court sets instead of deciding when he could run a transition game, Nash said, "It's almost like, 'Are we allowed to do this, Dad?"
LMAO!!!
You know what you're right. Duhon is clearly the Knicks starting PG of the future and the best option at PG for this system. Walsh and D"Antoni never make mistakes. What was I, a blogger with no NBA championships thinking? Between the two of them they have at least . . . how many championships . .. oh wait, what was that, they don't have any!!
have faith guys....... Faith that stern rigs the lottery so we can draft rubio, unless IT is back by then and he drafts another balkman/frye at #1 LOL
Do you have an update on ALLAN HOUSTON situation? How's his right quad?
LOL
"You know what you're right. Duhon is clearly the Knicks starting PG of the future and the best option at PG for this system."
In my best shaft voice
Ya Damn Right
"Walsh and D"Antoni never make mistakes."
I wouldn't go that far.
"What was I, a blogger with no NBA championships thinking?"
I and probably more bloggers here have no idea.
"Between the two of them they have at least . . . how many championships . .. oh wait, what was that, they don't have any!!"
Got that one right. However, I do know that Dantoni is a coach a majority of the players want to play for. They all love him because he is a people person and not to mention an excellent coach. Donnie Walsh is arguably the most respected Executives in the league and everybody loves to work for or with him. Marbury on the other hand is a player that nobody wants to play with. Nobody has anything nice to say about that guy. He's selfish and self centered (if those 2 don't mean the same thing). A person does not change over night so I'm not looking forward to Steph being in the future plans of this franchise. Barring an unpresedented championship run this year, when his contract expires....the Knicks will not be resigning him. Duhon is only signed for 2 years so why all the titt fits? What point guard other than Duhon was out there? Arroyo? No thanks...I'll go with Duhon. You think Nate and Jamal play no D? You should see Carlos "Go Right By Me" Arroyo play D?
Whatsup Dajoka?
I hope all is well. Your posts above are fun and funny reads. I don't have much time to respond so I'll just quick-answer a couple of the questions you raised.
1. Co-sign Knicks4Life @22.26 response.
2. Welcome to the NBA, but that was not Duhon's first game. He has actually played 301 games that have counted in the standings and in the expectations of those who have been paying attention to him the past four years.
3. It is not wrong to praise an individual for doing something good and then criticize him for doing something bad/wrong. We're not talking about Jesus or Satan, but an employee of the NY Knicks who makes decisions that can be evaluated everyday like any employee decision, Even President Bush does the right thing once in a while -- like taking a job with term limits.
4. Does Donnie Walsh know better than me and fellow Fixers, who disagree with his moves, just because he gets paid to be in the NBA? Maybe. Maybe not. but:
A. If all you're going to do is agree with Donnie Walsh just because he attends practices, then why waste your time reading posters who you think haven't seen enough of Duhon to make a decision or observation independent of Walsh's or D'Antoni's? But, what are you really saying? Walsh has never made a wrong decision or that any Walsh decision you agree with can't be wrong?
B. We have an unfair advantage on this question because you don't know whether my last job was as a "Blogger" or whether I am the custodian who sweeps behind Walsh at MSG or someone who works with the NBA. So it would be unfair of me to criticize you for your assumption that my only qualification to criticize a man that hasn't won a single championship is that I sit at the computer for 18 hours a day and wait for something silly to comment on or respond to.
C. One would think that Walsh saw Gallinari dribble the ball at least once before he selected him with the 6th pick in the draft. Oh my bad, just kidding. I know he never saw him play before. I trust his decision to totally trust someone else's observations.
D. Just because Walsh has the job doesn't mean he can do the job. And the same goes for many of the other NBA team executives. (Just because Palin sees Russia in the horizon every morning, doesn't really mean she knows enough to make foreign policy decisions).
5. Why be bothered by Duhon's two year contract? Because he's playing for a team that I watch and a game that I love and for the next two years of my life you expect me to be satisfied with his mediocrity, just because the Knicks MIGHT be better the year after his contract expires because BIG DADDY WALSH (DW) says so.
HAHAHAHEHEHEHE
Pete,
I'm not sure about the answer to the starting Nate question. Generally, I think he is more effective coming off the bench and changing the pace of the game like Barbosa. I also think there is a danger to overuse Nate and wear him out. Isiah did it to Nate and Jamal. D'Antoni did it to Nash a lot. It's hard to get better at the end of the game in this system -- you're often too exhausted.
I don't know about Nate starting. That may be the way to go.
I'm with the Pro Start Nate posts and let him grow!
Let his confidence grow! Lee and Zach played well together
and those two have Chemistry. Duhon is a 3rd backup at best!
Jeffries is our quickest big close to 7 foot, so he should be
our starting center and learn that his position is to rebound
on both ends and score by layup ONLY in transition.
Chandler should be our first man off the bench followed by
Gullinari and Marbury/Q. We'll win more games than last
year, but we have to be patient and realize that growing
pains are essential and we are not close to playing
with the Elite this year. Let Marbury look good until the
trade deadline, then unload him for anything as long
as it includes a first round draft pick in 2009.
Rose, Curry and James have no role on this team!
Lives - I agree that overuse of point guards can be a problem (Nash has definitely worn down over the course of the past few seasons), and Nate is well suited to the spark plug off the bench role, but with his one-dimensional attack game, so is Marbury. I was thinking that if Nate was starting, his minutes in theory could be kept under control (they'd have to considering how hard he plays) and if Marbury or Duhon came in it would give a different look.
Dajoka - I'm not completely down on Duhon - I suggested Nate starting if Duhon doesn't get it together. But telling posters not to criticize or assess management and coaching is a non-starter. The league is full of guys who routinely make terrible decisions. If being hired GM/attending all practices made your decisions rock solid, we wouldn't have just come through the Isiah era. I'm willing to anoint Walsh when I've seen him build a winner here, not simply because Dolan hired him.
Allan Houston will be suiting up tonight.
D'Antoni's comments today are interesting. Talking about Randolph as some type of elite player. (Saying he's one of only 4 or 5 guys in the league who will find his 20 and 10 every year)
I wonder if they're prepping for a big move.
Gotta admit, after one preseason game, Donnie's looking pretty smart in holding out on the Zach trades he was offered. Randolph keeps playing like that, and other, better deals will come.
I don't think Nate is the long term solution at the PG but I think of the guards we have right now, he gives us the best chance to win games. I wasn't clear above but I would never use Steph as a PG again. I would go with Nate, bring in Duhon in spots, and when its Crawford and Steph, have Jamal run the offense. I would use Steph off the ball as a decent/pretty good shooter and a guy who can attack the rim and get the opposing team in foul trouble. If you take the ball out of Steph's hands and don't have him initiate the offense you minimize some of the things we all hate him for, overdribbling, refusing to pass until he is double teamed, not using picks, not being a leader, etc. You also maximize his strengths and make him a useful piece of the team. Use him like the Suns used their non-true PG, Barbosa. I would have preferred to have him sit at home but we have to look forward.
I agree Matt, but remember Zach's presence stunts fat man Curry, which is why many of us wanted him traded.
K4L,
Who cares if Zach stunts Fat Eddy's growth ( its the only thing that does cuz that boy just keeps on growing) ? Eddy was only effective when force fed in the post. The dump it down low and walk away days are over. He should be traded to a half court team.
For the 1st time in a looooooong time I actually agree w/ alot of what Peace said. Good points bro.
Am I crazy or did Me-bury beg Larry Brown to be used as a 2 guard like AI a few years ago ? Now he says he is and always will be a PG ? Awwww, crazy man crazy !
I think Mikey D is going to see that Nate is his best option at PG. That man is all about pushing the tempo and is best equipt to run in this system.
Pete and Lives, I agree with everything you said but after one preseason game? I've been blogging with you guys a while now and I know if Duhon were to have a good game tonight...most of ya'll would change your minds on Duhon. If you didn't change your mind then I would have to wonder why? If you can say he's not our PG after one bad game...why can't you say he is our PG after a good game? This was his first game as a Knick. We all know what would happen if Steph was our point....WE LOSE, LOSE AND LOSE SOME MORE. Keep the rotation the way it is and let's get this going. We lost the 1st game by 2 points.
Lives, I have to much respect for you to come back sarcastic. As I've said before, you know who I am because we've been blogging together for years. You know I look at things realistically and to think Duhon is not the answer after 1 exibition game is ludacris. Now if we get 15 games into the season and he still is under performing then we got a problem. After one game though?
Na Homey!!!! That's just common sense.
For the record...Walsh and Dantoni do know what they are doing and we're only outsiders looking in. Let's just enjoy the show. I do know it will be a better show than the last 4 years.
Everytime I see Isiah in the barber shop, I just want to ask him why he did us the way he did. If he wasn't always with his friend (bodyguard), I probably would ask him.
If any of you would like to come up to White Plains and ask him yourself your more than welcome. He's there every Thursday night.
K4L - I agree on trading Zach. I love that he's playing well so far because that makes him easier to move.
On top of that, Curry's slow progress this season -- hear me out here -- could actually help this situation. As Curry gets into shape, Zach can get all of the significant time without causing any clubhouse disruption or confusion.
In this role, he puts up his 20/10 and starts looking like a guy who can play motivated, winning ball. Then, just as he's playing well enough for fans to start talking themselves into Zach Randolph being the future of the Knicks - bam! - you trade him, and make that first significant move in getting under the cap by 2010.
Then you have Curry - who in the mean time will have been conditioning and learning the system - slot into Zach's spot. It will be a transition, but Curry already has a decent chemistry with other guys on the floor (especially Jamal), and hopefully they wouldn't lose too much. It'd probably be a tradeoff in gaining a better FG% while losing rebounds.
It could all work. Then -- now we're getting really glass-half-full -- Curry, in the absence of Randolph, returns to a similar form from two years ago.
If that happens, then Curry becomes very tradeable himself, too. Either that, or they become a decent, competative team in need of a superstar to put them over the top...
Why are we still talking about trading Zach. Zach can work in this offense.
Keep Zach and trade Curry. We can even trade Jamal also.
I don't care about Zach's contract. His play is exactly what we need. He and Lee are great together. Curry will never work in this offense. He is just like Shaq...slow up the floor.
At least Zach can play in this offense and at least he gets rebounds and scores from more places than 3 feet away from the rim. This offense does not work with big men like Curry or Shaq. We'll see what happens but I say we trade Curry.
Zach is the man!!!!!!!!!
When he buys into the system like he's doing he and Lee are a dominant force down low.
DaJoka,
You wouldn't happen to be Steady with a new handle would you ? Your writing sounds very familiar.
100% agreeing w/ you that EC is the piece that needs to be moved. We need a shotblocker/intimidating presence inside not an immobile dunking machine like Fat Eddy.
DaJoka is not Steady.
I'm betting he's my favorite energetic young-gun. And if it is who I think it is, you have absolutely no reason to change your moniker man. That also means you're posting in two names.
Now Dajoka, you know how I scroll and you know I mean absolutely no disrespect. You also know that I like to call 'em early and I got many eyes in Chi-town. I want Duhon to do well. If our goal is just to win a few more games, then he'll be fabulous. If we are trying to kick some butt, he's not my guy.
D-Joka, I gotta run, but keep it coming. You motivate me to post and you keep it interesting. Oh, don't worry about the sarcasm, I definitely will not take it personally.
Catch you later
Do we forget that steph ran this offense in phx and he did take them to the playoffs chris is a average player he is nothing special and border line defender as much as ppl talk trash about steph he will be fine he will be in the game with two minute left christ is theif he cant get to the rim and his shot is average he cant make a jump shot and happens to be a avarage jump shooter
Do we forget that steph ran this offense in phx and he did take them to the playoffs chris is a average player he is nothing special and border line defender as much as ppl talk trash about steph he will be fine he will be in the game with two minute left christ is theif he cant get to the rim and his shot is average he cant make a jump shot and happens to be a avarage jump shooter
Do we forget that steph ran this offense in phx and he did take them to the playoffs chris is a average player he is nothing special and border line defender as much as ppl talk trash about steph he will be fine he will be in the game with two minute left christ is theif he cant get to the rim and his shot is average he cant make a jump shot and happens to be a avarage jump shooter