E-Boland and the Bombers

Going back to the last thread, it seems that when folks debate the best pitchers of an era...specifically, the "modern" era, Ryan's name often comes up, rightfully so, as the best. I will say, however, that this pitcher whom many people state as the best ever, or best righty ever, or best anything ever, was NEVER even the best picther for any single season throughout his career. Although he did come in second in CY voting ONCE. I will absolutely put Tom Seaver's number's - whether it's over a 4 year, 7 year or 10 year period, up against anyone who has ever laced 'em up, no matter what era.

FANTASTIC LINE BY HAL

My sentiments exactly - if you expect the Yankees to apologize for doing everything in their power to win then you are a fool and will be holding your breath for a long time.

Every owner loves it when the Yankees bring sell out crowds to their parks. Every owner loves that the Yankees bring revenue to the sport. Every GM wishes he had Cashman's resources. Every fan wishes he had an owner like we do.

Mark looked great in the pinstripes and will be a force for the next few years. Nice way to wrap up the old stadium. I wish it was opening day already!

You guys think there will be any moves before ST?

Money well spent.

Both in this particular case, and in the general approach Hal continues.

Boss...never saw Seaver in his prime, so I cant say for sure who was better. All I have is the numbers to go by to compare the two. Based on the comparison of Pedro's best years and Tom's best years, Pedro has him in Krate, BBrate, HITrate, WHIP, ERA, Win %. That just head to head, not taking into account the Park Seaver pitched in or the era. I just compared him to Bob Gibson as well, Gibson was very close especially his 68 season with his 1.12 ERA, 0.85 WHIP, 4-1 K-BB ratio, 13 Shutouts. That may be the best season Ive found ( other than those silly turn of the century SP's ). Still he didnt have the dominate K rate, BB rate, WHIP or win % Pedro did in his 2000 season. ( 1.74 ERA, 0.74 WHIP, 9-1 K-BB ratio and 13 CG ) Id say its a slight edge to Pedro.

Anyone else you guys can think of that can beat Pedro's 99 and 00 seasons??

99
23-4
213 IP
160 Hits
37 BB
313 K
2.07 ERA
0.92 WHIP

00
18-6
217 IP
128 Hits
32 BB
284 K
1.74 ERA
0.74 WHIP

UN-REAL..41-10, 597K, 69BB, 288Hits in 430IP..WOW!!!

=========

Back to real stuff, love me some Teix!!!! That guy is all class and is such a huge addition to this team in so many ways.

giddddddyyyy!!!!!

I don't want to hear anyone complain about the Yankees spending practices again ever. Nor do I want to hear owners/GMs complaining about how they can't afford to sign players in this economic environment.

The Cleveland Indians might as well have piled $2 million in the center of Progressive Field, covered it with gasoline and lit it on fire and then peed on it to put it out rather than give it to Carl Pavano.

The problem is not signing Tex for 180 mil or AJ for 82 or CC for 161. The problem is when a guy like Pavano who deserves nothing more than a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training gets a guaranteed contract. Now that means Mark Mulder and Mark Prior need to get them. It means guys who actually took the mound like Randy Wolf need to get more than 5 mil a year....These are the contracts that screw up the balance not what the Yankees are doing.

Hal is right on the money...hank woulda just coninued to p#ss people off ;-)!

To answer Seth's question from the last thread:
Teix #3
ARod #4

Why? Teix had a .410 on obp last year and as a switch hitter breaks up the righty/righty of Jeter/ARod.

Can we just get rid of Hank? Hal is calm, cool, articulate and reminds me of a CEO or Doctor. Hank reminds me of the town drunk running his mouth about all the money he has hid under his mattress. Can Hal just buy Hank out????

To answer a question on the Johnson signing on the other thread:

11 year career, 56-100 4.99 ERA Played mostly for Baltimore and is a righty.

Other news:

According to Pete Abe, Coke has been told to train as a starter for ST.

As I watched the MT's press conference which I enjoyed greatly. My thoughts were great signing, nice guy, pretty wife and a good ballplayer who actually knows what he's getting into for the money. I believe he'll be embraced immediately by the fans, teammates amd media in NY. Hopefully, he can be a role model for the guy to his immediate right (Cano). You have a field of players who want to win. This can only mean great things down the road.

Now on to Andy, I thing the Yankees may have to move forward without Andy but something in the back of my brain says, its not over and with some deals or moving money around the Yanks may still bring Andy back. Andy has placed himself in a catch -22 with the fan. The players and Yankee brass understand his stance. The fan cannot understand why a 36 year old pitcher believes that 10 million dollars to play baseball for one year is not enough money. I cannot buy NY or NJ tax structure. Its more than money in the fans eyes. Its about loyalty to the team, the city and the fans who struggle to pay the prices to go to the games. For what its worth, I' say let Hughes/ Aceves and Kennedy fight it out. I understand the youth aspect with injury possibilities to AJ and Joba but enough of the babying these guys. This club should be able to compete and win with the team assembled if not the Rays are Hall of Famers playing under assumed names. Its time for Hughes or whomever to growup and pitch. If Hughes can't learn a third pitch in winter ball and ST that has some movement on it than he's not going to make it as big as we hope. Its all about the mentality the player approaches the game and his support system and the conversation about his ability to succeed.

Realist, I think thats a good move with Coke. We have many options for the bullpen ( including one of the best LH RP's in Marte who owns LH hitters = .199 career BAA + 241 K in 202 IP ) and it will be easier to move Coke from starter to bullpen instead of the other way around. On the sneaky side of it, a LH starter is a more valuable trade chip than a LH reliever.

DRU,

From what I saw of Coke last year (which was limited as I live in Florida) he appeared to have
reliever stuff...meaning two pitches. If he can develop a third then fine but until then I believe long reliever/possible set up man
in years to come is his best place. But I have been wrong many times before ;-)

To add to the possible Coke transition, Dunn has looked fine once converted and maybe the brass feels he is better suited
in the pen as Marte's Left handed Set Up Guy role?

Well put Larry ;-)

Re-Hughes GROW UP AND PITCH!!

Ps. I'd take Hughes innings limits off HAH

Like he's ever even approached his intended innings!!

One more thing...

David Price being the second coming of Francisco Liriano is really beginning sicken me.

How old is Price?

Did he ever win the Minor League pitcher accolades Hughes has?

Two words for young Phillip..

FELIX HERNANDEZ

TWO MORE WORDS

CIRCLE CHANGEUP

*Calm down Viper this is meant in jest of course*

"To add to the possible Coke transition, Dunn has looked fine once converted and maybe the brass feels he is better suited
in the pen as Marte's Left handed Set Up Guy role?"

Meaning in the future...

My Post from the last thread i dont assume any1 saw it: it was a response to DRU asking me my opinion on who should bat 3rd AROD or Tex. CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE STILL ANSWER WHO YOU THINK SHOULD BAT 3RD AND WHY! THANKS!

Before today, I thought that Tex should be batting after A-Rod for sheer protection. Because, as VIPER (lol) pointed out, Matsui hit the majority of the time, and Posoda in the 5th hole protecting A-Rod during his MVP campaign in '07. But heres why my opinion changed:
- Jeter is becoming more of a chase hitter of late, diving at the low and outside curveball. He will see alot more of that with A-Rod behind him.
- Arod would be batting in the 1st inning everytime, and could be a rally killer with those K's
-Look at Tex's '08 numbers. With the braves batting 4th, he had a decent 60 percent of the season, but once traded to the Angels, who had great protection in Vlad, his numbers skyrocketed in the 3rd hole. (Forgot exact numbers, but will get them).

ON THE OTHER HAND:
- In theory, if Tex brings to the table what he has brought to every other club, he could make both A-Rod and Jeter see better pitches from hitting in the 4th hole. This is why:
Of course at first, there will be an adjustment period and people will test Tex. Once he proves himself, people aren't going to want to pitch to him, and would have to get A-Rod out in the 1st inning, and would have to make pitches to him. If A-Rod could take advantage of seeing great pitches, and become a clutch player as he was in '07, Jeter would then see better pitches due to the fact that pitchers would 'fear' facing A'Rod. I know all of this is alot of "IF's", but it is certainly and very really possible depending on how fast Tex can adjust to NY, and HE WILL adjust, this could certainly happen and would bolster the top of our order tremendously.

My opinion, I am split on the issue. There is strong evidence supporting both sides. The question is: who would you rather see have a great year; Arod or Tex? We know if A-Rod has a strong hitter behind him, he can excel. We know Tex probably can excel without any kind of protection hitter, and most certainly hits astounding with protection. The problem is, if Tex hits 3rd, Arod wont have sure protection with an injured Matsui/Posoda. And we dont know about Nady (yet).

All i know is, this WHOLE situation could be solved by the Yankees just rounding to an even 500 million and get Manny for a 3 yr 75mill contract and trade away Swish or Matsui, or both. Tex, Arod, Manny: 3, 4, 5! WOW!

If anyone saw the interviews with Cash, Levine, and Hal, they all said with a smile, we are not out of the market, and never consider us done, and we will keep on exploring.
But, BORAS was even more convincing. He said I know Manny wants to play for a winner, who is commited every year to putting a winning team on the field, and a team who wants a winning player, who will give him the contract that he wants. Then he said he wouldnt be surpised if the 2 parties crossed paths

OK we got Angel Berroa, good move, or ehhh whatever??

He signed a minor league contract. He will be playing 2nd, 1st, 3rd and SS when our big boys need a break. Not a bad move. Speedy, and a decent glove.

Decent bench addition- I like it. When's his press conference?

Oh..was that our beloved Kat who got to ask Mark Teixeira a question during his presser today? Are we in the presence of a future broadcasting star?

I saw Kat on TV! And i was like wow i gotta tell the bloggers. Anyway, i might not be on too often tomorrow, so dont forget me guys!
Another great day in Yankees history.

****CONTINUE THE WHO SHOULD BAT THIRD; AROD OR TEX DEBATE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! THANKS********

Guys, just curious here...

Was having a little fun in fantasy land while digesting the PC, so I ask:

By some miraculous alignment of the universe's, if the Yanks somehow acquired Manny (by trading whomever or paying whatever, doesn't really matter here), would that be overkill?? lol We'd be untouchable in my opinion, but it just made me smile when the thought came to mind.

Dave, what a terrible thought.

I for one also smile...

TEX

glove

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200804252586908&c_id=atl

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200809173499772&c_id=nyy

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

TEX

hitting

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200810053591083&c_id=nyy

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806222984065&c_id=atl

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

TEX

leadership

“I look at myself as a leader,” Teixeira said. “First and foremost, I try to do things the right way on the field, and I think you can carry that over to the locker room and earn the respect of your teammates. I’ve always thought that a team has a few leaders that they look up to, and I’ve always wanted to be that guy.”

xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

TEX

Willing to learn from others

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080820&content_id=3339654&vkey=news_ana&fext=.jsp&c_id=ana

xoxoxoxoxoxoxo

As far as where does Teixeira hit in the lineup - my money is in the #3 slot.

Both Girardi and Torre are big proponents of alternating lefty-righty bats, especially in the top and middle of the order:

Damon L
Jeter R
Teixeira S
A-Rod R
Matsui L
Nady R
Posada S
Cano L
Gardner L

If Girardi bats A-Rod that slot - he's got two right-handed bats hitting back to back with Jeter and A-Rod.

So I'd expect Teixeira to be their primary #3 hitter.

Good rationale cited for both preferences, Tex third and ARod fourth
or vice-versa. As I've said before, I prefer Tex then ARod. The order
Girardi has them hit may very well depend on who he bats fifth.

BTW, the Yankees NEED Pettitte to eat 200 innings much more than
they don't need him.

Heard that Mark bats 30 points higher in the 3 hole but suppose we should ask what A-Rod bats in the 3 hole first no?

Good problem to have I suppose.

IMHO, I'd bat Mark T. in the three spot. He makes better contact than Arod depending on the sun, moon and the stars of Arods thought processes. Arod can continue his guess hitting and hope for a rebound year as 2007 produced but Arod is a great hitter but K's too often in big spots.

In answer to Seth’s third and forth in the order question, I’d like to ask you guys why you thought Stengel used to primarily bat Berra clean up behind Mick?

Mantle always led Berra in Hrs and RBIs and was obviously the more devastating hitter. So was Casey using Berra, an extremely dangerous clutch hitter in the 4 hole to make sure that Mickey got a better selection of pitches? That would seem to be the case. If one could make the argument that Arod will be that much more dangerous with Teix behind him, might that not be a more productive overall lineup?

Conversely, I agree with Viper and others who suggest that Joe G likes the L/R alignment. Also, as I believe Viper has pointed out, Arod had a MVP season in 2007 with Matsui/Posada hitting behind him.

Whatever happens at the start of the season could be modified as the year progresses according to injuries and how everyone is hitting.

How about batting Matsui, Posada or Cano 3rd and Tex 5th?

The question should be in jeters last good season who was batting after him his progress is essential especially if Damon is off to a slow start

I'm getting the feeling that the final slot in the rotation is going to be manned by either Pettitte or Hughes.

Michael Kay alluded to this yesterday and it does seem to make sense given the FO dealings the last few weeks.

If Pettitte doesn't return for whatever reason, it seems that they won't be targeting another veteran to take up that final slot and relying on the kids to battle it out.

That really seems like an unwise and unnecessary gamble to me. I can't make it any clearer that I'm a big fan of Hughes like anyone else - but we can't ignore his injury history the last two seasons - missing three months in 2007 and another three months in 2008.

And he wasn't very good when he was healthy last year.

Should they be depending on Hughes (or Aceves/Kennedy/Coke) in that final slot?

I sure as hell don't think so. Not in this division, anyway.

They still need someone who is capable of eating 200 IP because both Joba and Hughes will be limited to the 140 - 150 IP range.

Sounds like a really bad idea to me and I don't have to remind people that Burnett is still a big health risk and a DL stint by him would turn this team's major strength into a solid but not so intimidating bunch with Hughes and Kennedy starting two of every five games.

Sabathia, Burnett, Wang, Pettitte, and Joba looks a lot different than Sabathia, Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy/Aceves.

here is the lineup for Jeters best season 1999 .

to me I think the leadoff hitter is very important to Jeters production followed by an get on base hitter, by the time Tex or arod bats up there should be at least two runners on.

someone asked me if you had the chance to place a hitter on this current lineup to really complete it who would it be ?

My answer was RICKY HENDERSON

I said to make it better had you removed randolph from the 2 slot in the Henderson days and placed Jeter between Ricky and Donny ...MAAAAAN you talking numbers

Rickey Henderson and 100 steals with this line up would have been incredible.

Anyway here is 1999 NYY Lineup

New York Yankees AB R H RBI BB SO BA OPS Pit PO A Details
C Knoblauch 2B 4 2 2 0 1 0 .286 .730 17 0 7
D Jeter SS 5 2 3 1 0 0 .750 2.153 8 3 2 3B,CS
P O'Neill RF 4 0 2 3 0 0 .286 .904 11 1 0 2·2B,SF
B Williams CF 4 0 2 0 1 0 .375 .819 14 2 0
T Martinez 1B 5 0 1 0 0 0 .111 .222 20 13 0
C Davis DH 4 1 1 0 0 1 .333 1.333 16 0 0 SB,GDP
J Posada C 2 1 0 0 1 1 .000 .500 11 7 1 SB,HBP
S Brosius 3B 3 0 0 1 0 0 .000 .000 13 0 2 SF
C Curtis LF 3 1 1 2 0 0 .333 1.583 14 0 0 HR,SF

I want to take a second to talk about two articles in today's papers:

First - Ken Davidoff isn't necessarily wrong when he says that the Yankees didn't need to spend like they did this winter. He says that if these players don't perform the Yankees could be right back in the situation they are just emerging from where they are counting the days until big contracts come off the books. He points to lots of highly touted prospects in the system who fans would have been patient and waited for.

Not in this day and age they wouldn't. We talked about it earlier this offseason. With the prices being what they are, the Yankees were not going to fill the stadium by saying "we have a plan and we're sticking to it" Even though they kinda sorta are. They're also going to gain roster flexibility next year when Matsui, Damon and Nady are free agents. Given the talent pool expected to hit free agency next year it wouldn't shock me at all if all three spots are filled by Yankee farmhands with Gardner in LF, Jackson in CF and Edwar Gonzalez in RF with Posada moving to DH and Francisco Cervelli as the everyday catcher. I think that by far, CC and Tex are going to be of higher quality than anyone on the market in the next couple of years. For example, provided the options on Beckett and Lackey are picked up the best FA pitcher next season will be Brett Myers and the best position player is Matt Holliday)

The second article is by Joel Sherman (Viper just stopped reading). In it he says that "according to sources" that in his visit to Andy's home, "Cashman informed Pettitte that the $10 million the club had been offering much of the offseason was a bid he needed to accept, or the offer could be lowered should the Yanks complete other significant business"

It is not hard to speculate that signing Tex to a 180 mil contract would qualify as "significant business" so it would seem that rather than come up to meet Andy half way the Yankees intend to lower their offer, probably by about 2 mil so that it is in range with what Randy Johnson signed for in San Fran.

More from Sherman: At the Teixeira press conference yesterday, Cashman said he would not discuss the status of the Pettitte negotiations either financially or strategically except to say matters had grown "more complicated."

The Yankees' initial plan this offseason was to add Nick Swisher to play first, then fixate on the rotation by signing two high-end starters (Sabathia and Burnett) and re-signing Pettitte to serve as a fifth starter. However, after being impressed by Teixeira during their Dec. 4 meeting in Washington, Cashman began lobbying the initially resistant Yankees ownership to make another huge outlay.

Once convinced, the Steinbrenner family told Cashman there must be corresponding moves to cut elsewhere. That starts with a lower offer for Pettitte. The Yanks also might trade either Swisher or Xavier Nady, and it is possible if they could remove one of those salaries the Yanks could consider restoring their bid to Pettitte at $10 million.

Cashman and Girardi said their intention right now, if Pettitte does not return, is to have a spring training competition among Phil HughesPhil Hughes , Ian Kennedy, Alfredo Aceves, Phil Coke (whom the Yanks asked to come to camp as a starter, not a reliever) and veteran Jason Johnson (recently signed to a minor league contract). Hughes would be considered the frontrunner even if the Yanks would not acknowledge that publicly.

In addition to Jason Johnson and Angel Berroa the Yankees also signed former St. Louis OF (and former Yankee farmhand) John Rodriguez to a minor league deal. Rodriguez played for St. Louis between 2005-06, hitting .298 with a .378 on base percentage in 158 games and 332 at-bats. He had seven homers and 43 RBIs. For the past two seasons, Rodriguez has played in Triple-A for the Cardinals, Rays and Mets

There is no way You trade away a Nady or Swisher in order to boost up Andy Pettite money that would be a disaster and I will be sure to let thsi be known. If they trade away nady or swish. everyday players and Andy stinks it up then THAT would be a prime disaster especially if Nady produces another 20 plus Homer season and Melky and Brett is duds AGAIN. While it would be nice to have andy back however it is not worth losing a potential good bat and weakning the bench in order to please a prima donna. shift melky back to AAA. explore trades for the smaller windows players if possible like Matusi (which is unlikely )

Just insert the kid and fall back this was how they inserted Andy when he started it would b easier for the kids now because the pressure is not the same last year they was considered to be Ace's which was wrong to do . But something was said that made sense

Joba still has a mountain to climb.

No responded to my jeter factor whre i said the leadoff hitters performance is essential for Jeters production and a get on base hitter should hit behind him. this is much more critical than where Arod or tex hits

Sherman takes the cake on this one.

For one thing, and this involves any FA - when was the last time you saw a team have an offer on the table and then LOWER it after it was rejected?

Sherman is so full of BS. This is his own speculation and nothing more.

If the Yanks didn't want Pettitte back - they would just tell him they were moving in another direction and end discussions.

They wouldn't insult the guy by making a lower offer than the one his agents rejected.

They have more class than that - which is more than I can say for Sherman.

Viper -

Easy killer. The fact of the matter is we don't know how the Tex signing affects a potential contract for Andy at this point. It's quite possible that what he's saying is 100% true. That between the money they've given out and the lack of market interest in him, Hal has told Cashman that if he wants Andy back it has to be at less than 10 mil or he has to remove another contract from the team.

That's all Sherman is saying. He's not saying the Yankees will offer Andy a lower contract, he's speculating that if they don't deal a contract that the next offer Andy sees from the Yankees might be lower than the one he turned down. And you're wrong when you say that it has never happened before. Last offseason the Phillies offered Kyle Lohse 3 years 33 million, he turned it down because his agent (Boras) wanted a 5 year deal for more than 12 mil per. When there was no market the Phillies offered Lohse a 1 year deal at 5 mil - he turned it down and signed with St. Louis instead - for less money.

38

The number of days until pitchers and catchers report to Spring Training.

Whats the rush to sign Andy guys? There's still plenty of time to get this done.. If he signed tomorrow, what the hell would we argue about? Where to bat a young stud 1B who's averaged 34 HR's and 113 RBI's each of his 1st 6 years in the league, or a multiple MVP winner?? HMMM, what problems we have huh? What do you think Pirates fans are arguing about?

If the Yankees traded Nady it would be a huge mistake in my opinion. They just filled one of the two gaping holes in the lineup and are hoping that Matsui and Posada can fill the others by remaining healthy but there is a good chance that they may not so why would they trade one of the guys who produced well last season and open another hole in the lineup? I just don't get that.
They have come this far, so why quibble over a few million more dollars when they lose more payroll next year? Bite the bullet for one season and deal with it- keep Nady and Matsui and only deal Swisher if they have too, probably for a 4th starter if Pettitte does not come back.
Hell, just make Pettitte happy, shore up the bench and let's get to Tampa for crying out loud. What are we at, about 37 days until P's&C's report?

Buster Olney writes that he thinks the Yankees will eventually opt to deal Swisher rather than Nady because even though Nady's a free agent at the end of the season, he's a better bet to produce this year than Swisher is. I agree with the sentiment but disagree with his conclusion.

I think with Damon and Matsui both being free agents the Yankees will want to have at least one known ML outfielder on the roster next year and that will lead them to keep Swisher over Nady.

Plus I think Nady could bring them back more than Swisher can at this point in terms of ML ready talent, either a pitcher or CF. And the Yankees have always loved switch hitters (see Cashman's obsession with Betemit)

Would a Nady for Randy Winn deal make sense? The Giants are looking for offense, they don't believe they can sign Manny, Nady is certainly not of Manny's caliber but he's a RH power bat. The Giants already have a CF in Rowand. Both are FA's at the end of the season. Winn makes more money (by about 5 mil - but that number will come down after Nady gets his arbitration hearing) and can veto trades to 10 teams.

If not that one, then perhaps Nady for Ankiel. Again, both free agents after the season. The Cards have several CF options (Shumacher, Colby Rasmus, Brian Barton) but outside of Pujols they're counting on health from Troy Glaus and that Ryan Ludwick wasn't a latter day Shane Spencer. Maybe the Yankees include a relief pitcher (Brian Bruney?) to sweeten the pot.

Or there's Chone Figgins: Without Tex the Angels need some offensive help. Either Swisher or Nady would be a fit since they can both play 1b as well (where Kendry Morales is slated to start) but I think they would rather have the known in Nady than the unknown in Swisher.

Jim,

I don't think it's an issue of trading Nady (or Swisher) for a bag of baseballs to get rid of their contracts. I think what the Yankees would like to do is use one of them to find a player who can bring just as much to the table offensively, but fill their still gaping need in CF.

I think Girardi and Cashman are dreading a scenario in which the non-productive bats of Melky or Gardner force them to play an outfield of Swisher, Damon, and Nady. Now if they don't find a deal that makes sense, a deal that makes them better defensively and doesn't compromise them offensively, then they won't do it and Swisher will likely play this season as a spot starter filling in when Matsui and Damon eventually go down with injury. The team is just exploring the options and rightly feel that they can find a player to fill that role for less than what Nick is going to make.

Lets say, for example, the Yankees traded Nady for Winn or Ankiel and had a starting OF of Damon, Winn/Ankiel, and Swisher. They then signed an Eric Hinske or even Baldelli for the bench - would that weaken the team that dramatically? Either player could fill in for Damon in LF or Matsui at DH and provide just as much offense. Plus, in the case of Winn, it would give them 4 switch hitters in the lineup, possibly even 5 if Melky were to spot Damon in LF at some point.

Trading Swisher is no big deal, as he has never done anything
in the pinstripes. I can see he and his salary being dumped if
the Yanks are hot to trot on Pettitte. Nady is a whole different
animal. This guy is the blue collar type of player that all
championship teams must have in abundance. He fits right in
with Jeter, Posada, Mo, and now TEX. These are the core players
that will lead this team to a championship in 09. Nady will not
be traded, and Cashman should be working on locking him up for
the next 4 seasons. With worries over the economy dropping
the salaries of all but the superstars, now is the time for
Cashman to hit guys like Nady up for long term deals. Cash
may be a little leery after what he has seen from Cano following
his contract, but Nady aint no Cano in any way shape or form.

I dont know Chip, I think Nady is more valuable than Winn and Ankiel ( I will never understand your fascination with Winn...remember when you wanted to bat him 3rd??? lol )

X man is just a flat out better player than Winn and is much more durable and proven than Ankiel. RIck may have more power, but Nady has better AB's...better average, less K's and will be there for 160 games. I followed Ankiel closely last year, he was very streaky and always banged up. I dont think thats the kind of guy we need at the bottom of our order. Plus if you trade Nady for Ankiel, you now have Ankiel and Swisher at the bottom of the order. Those are two guys that will hit .250/260 if we're lucky and strike out a TON. Those are cold streaks waiting to happen. For me I would prefer Nady in RF, Gardner in CF and Swisher on the bench filling in for 1st and all 3 OF spots. I also like having Swisher on the bench to give Joe a switch hitting HR hitter late in games.. Sure Brett would be lucky to hit .260 this year, but he will at least have good AB's and be a demon on the basepaths. I value the improved outfield speed, improved starting lineup durability and deeper bench over having more HR's from one spot in our lineup.

CHIP-
Nady is a better player than Ankiel. Why would the Yanks trade
him and Bruney for Ankiel? Plus, the Yanks have been looking
for a righthanded power hitter forever. No way they give that away
for a streaky slugger that is only a season removed from
failing a MLB drug test. Some of you are selling Nady short.

Chip,

Whatever Sherman is saying, he's talking out of his arse in speculating that they could lower their offer to Pettitte.

Teams don't do that if they have any respect at all for said player.

Also, Randy Winn is not a center fielder. He's a corner outfielder.

Could Winn play CF on occasion?

Sure he could. But so could Damon and Swisher and the Yanks want to avoid that as much as possible.

Frankly, Nady is a considerably better player than Winn and cheaper as well.

Ankiel is a not a good option either. He has a great arm but his range is definitely below average.

I'd love to have Figgins - but isn't he the Angels' third baseman?

I don't see them giving him up.

Do we really need anything else on the hitting side??

Damon - L
Jeter - R
Tex - S
Arod - R
Matsui - L
Nady - R
Cano - L
Posada - S
Gardner - L

Do we really need more than this? We have solid D on the INF and OF. We have speed at the top and bottom, we have power in the middle, we have balance up and down the order. AND we have Swisher to back up our lineup with a switch hitting HR guy. In my book, we are done, we have a championship lineup if everyone stays healthy. The key is the pitching...

CC
Wang
AJ
Joba
??

If we bring in Andy to give another vet presence who can throw 200 innings, and another lefty to give more balance to the rotation....what else would we need? Our pen is young and ready to dominate. The pen was solid last year with all those bums we were trotting out there. Imagine if we rest these guys with workhorses like CC and Wang? The pens numbers should be even better this year.

The more I think about it, the more I think we need Andy. I have to believe this is a done deal already in Andy and the Yanks minds. Ok Mr Pettitte, you have 37 days ( not including today, I was off by 1 Jim..lol ) to sign on and bring a ring back to the Bronx. You are the final piece to the puzzle.

While we're at it, Kudos again to the Yanks FO for bringing in this talent, while also keeping our blue chippers in the minors. This should be the 1st year of many solid years to come! The New Era has begun!!!!

The Figgins speculation should cease immediately. The Yanks
need another leadoff hitter like a hole-in-the-head. What do you
guys want, a bunch of Punch an Judy's out there? I like Figgy
in general, but he doesn't fit on this team.

DRU,

I'm not sure what the discussion was between you and The Boss concerning Pedro vs Seaver, but for my money, I'd take Tom Seaver every, single time. I've been out to Shea to see him pitch on numerous occasions and I can tell you that he was one of the best that I ever saw. I was at the double header back in 1972 when the Mets played San Diego, and Seaver was 2 outs away from a no hitter. I also saw the game in 1969 (I was 12) when he almost threw a perfect game against the Cubs when Jimmy Qualls broke it up in the 9th. Another great pitcher from that era was Steve Carlton.

I'd take a rotation of Seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Ford and Koufax (not to mention Drysdale), spot you 5 runs a game and still beat you.

Those guys were THAT good.

Some of the "older" guys on here can back me up on this.

Bomber,

Of course I agree with you about the importance of who hits in front of Jeter. As we all have known forever, his numbers are better with runners on.

Dru -

To tell you the truth - if the Yankees got Winn right now I would want him batting 3rd, Alex 4 and Tex 5 - that's 4 guys at the top of the lineup who can score on a single and steal a base in a big spot. But that's neither here nor there.

Look, I like Nady and I think if the Yankees keep him then he'll have a solid year for them. But the problem is this is still a team without a true CF option and too many corner OF/DH guys. So if you can use a corner OF/DH type to get you a CF who is of similar caliber, then why wouldn't you do it?

Viper -

Winn was moved to the corner last year to accomodate Rowand, not because he can't play the position. Nady is up for arbitration, I'm sure coming off of last season his contract will go up to make it a wash with that of Winn. And, granted I only saw him on Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter but I think you're selling Ankiel short on his defensive ability.

I'm not saying the team has to make a trade. I do think it is smart that they explore them.

Last year we were all ok with Melky as the opening day CF because we believed that a lineup with this many bats could support his lack of stick at the bottom of it. Then Cano got off to a bad start, Matsui, Jeter, Alex and Posada got hurt and all of a sudden Melky wasn't acceptable at the bottom of the lineup anymore. This year many of you are saying that the team will be fine with Melky or Gardner in CF and if they don't hit, this lineup has enough bats to carry them. Uh-huh. And if Cano gets off to a slow start? If Matsui, Jeter, Alex and/or Posada get hurt again - then will Melky or Gardner again be unacceptable all of a sudden? I'm just saying, the team has a glut at one spot, it might as well use that glut to address a potential weakness in another spot to make the team as deep as possible.

And speaking of Jeter, one need the team could spend some thought on is providing a utility infielder who can actually play SS. If we'd had such a player last season Jeter would not have needed to play hurt and would have had a chance to heal. Besides, as some of our commenters never tire of repeating, DJ is not as young as he once was -- he would stay fresher if he had the occasional day off. Yes, I know he doesn't like to sit, but since GI Joe is supposedly not one to cater to his players, he might be able to make him do it once in a while for the sake of the larger picture.

ST - I like Figgins a lot, but I dont see the Angels parting with him. Im hoping that we already have Chone on our team with Brett Gardner. Chone hit .276 with 34 SB's and 1 HR last year for the Halos, I think Brett can match that production this year if given the chance...actually...

Gather round kids...ITS STAT TIME!!!!!!

Minor league career stats

Figgins
2739 AB's
18 HR
208 SB
75 CS
306 BB
521 K
.273 AVG
.730 OPS

Gardner
1448 AB's
9 HR
151 SB
31 CS
233 BB
287 K
.290 AVG
.774 OPS

I understand that minor league stats can be misleading and unreliable on occasion. Still,Brett had the same power as Chone, but was better at getting on base, better at stealing bases ( 5-1 ratio ), struck out less and hit for a higher average.

If you look at Brett's minor league track record, it takes him about 200 AB's to get comfortable at the next level. He's logged 151 AB's at the MLB level so far. His AAA numbers last year make me drool!, look at those numbers if he got to 500 AB's ( only got 341 at AAA before moving up )

500 AB's
150 Hits
102 BB
54 SB's
.296 AVG
414 OBP

I love what I saw from Brett in ST last year and I liked him in certain spots last year ( winning RBI single off of Paps ). He's a grinder who can beat out and INF hit, take a walk and steal 2nd + 3rd. On top of that he has the most range in CF since Dieon Sanders roamed there. Whats not to like? Lets give this kid a shot like the Sox gave to Ellsbury. Who knows, if he get to 500 AB's I can see him hitting .260 - .270, stealing 30-40 bases and covering huge chunks of real estate in CF. His D will help our SP's and his speed will put pressure on the other team. Imagine this...no outs, Gardner on 2nd, Damon on 1st and Jeter to the plate? Double steal? Hit and run?? Sacrifice to get Tex up with 2nd and 3rd and 1 out. Oh you want to pitch around Mark to get to Arod? Be my guest. Or with Gardner on 1st, it leaves the right side wide open for Damon ( a LH hitter ), you could have damon slap the ball through and you have 1st and 3rd.

SPEED SPEED SPEED!!!! I love that part of the game and its something we've missed for far too long. Instead of teams like the Rays running on us, Id love to run on them a little bit this year. 100 SB's betwen Gardner, Damon, Arod and Jeter sounds good to me. I want the Yanks to play small ball and force the issue like the Angels do to us. Lets not sit back and wait for the long ball, lets get back to that aggressive style of ball. To me thats more fun to watch.

Chip,

I've never been a fan of Melky and have made that pretty clear a number of times. I wanted them to trade him at the end of 2006 when his value had peaked.

So, no, I wasn't happy about Melky being the Opening Day center fielder last season.

I'd prefer to stick it out with Gardner for awhile unless someone makes an offer they can't refuse.

I certainly agree that they should be always be open to everything - but I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire someone who doesn't fit the team very well.

I'm not a big Winn fan and I believe Ankiel's story is a lot more compelling than his play on the field.

John G - thanks for the insight! There are only so many highlight clips and stats I can look at. There's nothing like actually sitting there to appreciate how good a player is. Since you've seen all of them pitch live, I will take your word for it my friend.

good stuff

Why do the Yankees even have minor league teams? They just go and buy a major league line up anyway.
Sour graoes can go both ways, ie Wang hurting himself running the bases and Steinbrenner calling interleague play stupid.
I love to have a scouting job with Yankees! I wouldn't really have to do anything!

ME 2 BREW TOWN!!! BEING A YANKEE SCOUT IS MY DREAM JOB!!!!!

Man, I guess drinking tons of beer isnt the only thing we have in common!!!! Too bad about the whole not getting a 1st round pick for CC. Too bad you had to give up one of the best 1B prospects in the majors in LaPorta to get CC. Do you guys think you'll get a player as good as LaPorta with our 2nd round pick? No, yeah thats a tall order. Hey but at least you made it to the playoffs, we didnt do that last year. Thats something to hang your beer mug on.

FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!! FIGHT!!!!

WORK THE BODY!!!!!

I'm uncharacteristically on the sidelines watching this one because I'm usually involved in most of these blog brawls.

I can see why Brew would fantasize about there being a job somewhere that fits his qualifications ...

Fight? Would you call a kid throwing peanut shells at a boxer as he enters the ring a fight???

FYI Brew - The Brew Crew is the little kid throwing peanuts at the former boxing champ ( Yanks ), as he makes his way to the ring ( AL East ).

Love ya buddy, stop by anytime. Maybe next time you can tell me how we need a sallarrrryyy cccaappzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...oops sorry about that, must have dozed off there for a minute. What were we talking about again??? Oh right, LaPorta...damn shame.

I'm with Viper and Straight Talker on this one

THERE IS NO WAY I"M TRADING NADY.

everyteam that traded him away REGRETS it!!!

They always thought they could trade him for a quick fix not realizing that he was the solution all along , Nady at this time could be your right handed paul o'neil and you do not trade that away. if the Giants want Damon for WInn then cool whatever but they don't so ...
Had they had two good corner OF then insert Brett for his glove. Brett will turn it around and get on base and steal 40 - 50 bases, people will say but how is that possible?

for the 1st time CF is not needed for the all tools player if that player had come then it would been different . we have that player at 1st and at 3rd and SS. Meaning that your CF does not have to be an offensive juganut but rather at this point in Yankee evolution the CF could be an on base machine with the potential to advance a base without the next batter needing to get a hit.

The % are in Brett favor , once he get on base he is a beast. the same % however work out in Justin Christian favor as well if he is on the bench

In fact Nady need to be offered a contract now and I honest Believe that he would produce even more if he knew he was in that teams future plans.

What's a sour graoe? Do you make that with some kielbasa or something?

Dru vs. Brew round one goes to Dru.

If you guys want Pettitte, we should just trade Swisher. Let Melky
and Gardner battle it out for CF in ST. It's really that simple. Nady
stays with the Yanks, and becomes a fan favorite in RF.

One of the reasons that I love this blog is because there are so many really thoughtful people offering such terrific arguments. I also appreciate the fact that those arguments rarely descend into ridiculous personal attacks. Good on you all!

Of course it means that I wind up changing my opinion about issues from one post to the next! I do like DRU’s enthusiasm about the lineup he proposes and then I fear Chip may be right should injuries cut into offensive production.

And looking at the long term, I can see why ST believes it could be a good thing to sign Nady now (good point about the timing factor in the current economic atmosphere.) Then, too, I love Swisher’s gung ho attitude, his versatility and his bench presence adding another element to a well rounded team. Good arguments all around but, you’re all leaving me with a headache!

John G., I’m one of the older guys who can gladly vouch for your choice of a pitching staff. If they were pitching for the Yanks at Yankee Stadium, those three lefties would each win a bundle of games, wouldn’t they?

As far as ‘short term’ dominance goes (and I could be proven wrong, I admit), without comparing ALL the stats, I’d have to say that Sandy Koufax was the most dominant pitcher that I’ve seen over a brief period. From 1962 through 1966, his ERA was 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, and 1.73, going 14 -7, 25 - 5, 19 – 5, 26 – 8 and a last year of 27 – 9! That’s an average of 22 wins a year over a five year period against average of only seven losses. And it’s important to remember that those Dodger teams did not score a whole heck of a lot of runs. I bet if someone would care to look it up that a high percentage of those very few losses were 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 type games.

Anyway, I concur with you, John G., about Seaver as the most dominant right hand starter – at least until Pedro. But I’ll let you guys argue that one.

Pedro Dominated in the AL (DH ERA) and NL in the S T E R O I D S era

For 9 YEARS!!!

I'm sorry I'm a Middle age Dude but Pedro is a beast

Pedro and Randy Johnson in their Primes is nasty

Iwould love to see a series with Seaver and WALTER JOHNSON

verses

Pedro and Randy

If NY could trade Swisher maybe in a package deal to improve the team then I say they should do it.
He's worth a Marquez type and a bench player or reliever.Although NY is solid in the pen.
Coke as a starter intrigues me but it's probably more of a precaution in case one of the Aceves/Kennedy/Hughes group gets dealt.

Seaver vs. Pedro

Seaver won over 300 games pitching for some pretty crappy Mets teams .Ed Kranepool ,Jerry Buchek? Seaver pitched more than 250 innings something like 12 straight yrs.His innings pitched and complete games far exceed Pedro's.Pedro has won slightly more than 200 games and is near the end of a great career.

Well Pedro had a bullpwen which gave out on him he also did damaged for Montreal,

again had Seaver faced some pretty low hitting teams as well. Downing Pedro is like Downing Mariano

Of course seaver is going to dominate when in his day every game hitting wise was like playoff style when Pitchers dominate. Pedro had to pitch too and dominate one of the best corps of hitters in the games history. Cheaters or not he stil lhad to face them for 9 years

IF Pedro was on those Met teams and Red teams he would have done well.

It's funny how this argument is taking shape: People tend to believe the people they grew up watching are the best. For me, I'll take this starting five:

Koufax
Gibson
Seaver
Randy Johnson
Pedro

What if dept: JR Richard (He was a beast!).

I stick with NOLAN RYAN. The guy has even admitted to
when working out of the stretch, having his foot 1 inch or so in
front of the rubber, in order to get the ball to the hitter just a little
quicker. He would employ this trick when the game was on the
line late, big stick up, and he was tiring. Pedro pales in
comparison to either Nollie or Tom Terrific.

as for the OF situationwh ytrade your productive younger OF's Nady . Swish then let Matsui and Damon walk years end and be forced to rely on Melky Brett and unprovens

No one's "downing" Pedro he was the games most dominant pitcher for 5 yrs.Seaver was great for 15 yrs and went on to reinvent himself with the Pale Hose for 2 yrs.

Spahn
Koufax
Gibson
Seaver
Marichal

I saw all these guys pitch they had everything Savvy,above average stuff,unflappable under pressure,control etc.

If Pedro is compared to any of these it would be Koufax ,for 5 yrs the best but lacked longevity.

Seaver's lifetime ERA over 20 yrs 2.86
Pedro's 2.91 over much less time

Yes, Bomber. The leadoff hitter is critical so Jeter can continue to hit into those killer doubleplays he started really hitting into in the Playoff series against the Indians.

Why is this even a debate?

The market is flooded with corner outfielders right now. Why trade away someone now and not get what we deserve back in return?

Melky, Gardner, and Nady are young and don't cost much. No reason to trade any of them now.

Damon is our lead off hitter and we are going to need his clutch hits if we want to go far in the playoffs.

Matsui has the capability to drive in over 100 RBI's and bat behind Arod all season.

Swisher is signed beyond next year. Which i value because we are losing Nady, Damon and Matsui. We need to hold on to him because he very well could be starting in 2010 in LF.

Lets get this season going before we look into any trades. We may need some solid trade chips half way through the season to fill a hole.

Thanks Incog. :-)

For the Pedro supporters: I'm not dissing Pedro in no way, shape or form, but Seaver was better than him. And I can't stand the Mets! I rooted for Baltimore in the 69 series and Oakland in the 73 series. The 86 series I tuned out as that was the "Nightmare" series as far as I was concerned.

Koufax was better than both of them! For me, the best game that I saw Koufax pitch was game 7 of the 65 series against Minnesota. He pitched a complete game on 2 days rest and dominated the Twins lineup which had a lot of great hitters such as Killebrew and Oliva to name a few. Koufax retird after the 66 season at the age of 32! Can you imagine what he would have done had he not retired that young.

if NY keeps Swisher he'll be spending a lot of time riding the bench.

Even though Damon,Matsui and Nady become FA after 09 ,NY might extend performance based contracts to 1 or 2 of them.

JOHN G.

I was thinking of the 65 series game 7 not only did Koufax pitch with 2 days rest his elbow was killing him he threw nothing but fastballs the whole game and still dominated a lineup of Oliva,Killebrew etc.Didn't tell Alston he was in terrible pain just took the ball...
Great stuff !

Normally I wouldn't do this but for those of you watched the presser you'll find this pretty amusing...

S.A.-Brian "The Ninja" Cashman: Showing free agents lots of love January 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Nick in SF January 7th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Hal Steinbrenner really has come a long way from just a couple short years ago:

http://tinyurl.com/7gkdm2
———————————————————-

Nick!!! I almost choked on my lunch! lol :O

I believe Jeter and the DP issue is all about his decreasing
lack of foot speed. He still has good speed, but is frequently
thrown out at 1st by a half step now. He used to beat those
throws out. The oppossing infielders recognize this, and take
a little extra time now to make their throw to 1st.

Come on guys....Here's a rotation for you:

Ed Whitson
Carl Pavano
Jeff Weaver
Greg Cadaret
Andy Hawkins
Tim Leary

Now THAT'S a pitching staff for the ages!

ST, you're right. He still busts it out of the box but has lost that half step.

Ah, but don't forget these guys....

Chuck Cary
Mike Witt
Melido Perez
Pascual Perez
Walt Terrell
Wade Taylor
Jeff Johnson

JIM A.

From the sublime to the ridiculous or is it the other way around?

You left out
Dave LaPoint &
Rich Dotson

Swisher will not be traded and neither will Nady or Matsui. Swisher will
start against tough right-handers (Nady sits) or when Damon
needs a break to keep his legs fresh. On occasion, when one
of our "strike-out" pitchers are on the mound (Joba,Burnett)
I can see Swisher in centerfield, being replaced by Gardner/Melky
for defense late in games. This is the scenario until next year.

Yanks will wait to see if Matsui/Damon have productive seasons
and re-sign only one.
So, to summarize:
Nady - starting RF unless tough righty is on the mound
Swisher - backup for all outfield positions/spot starter
Damon - LF and rested periodically
Matsui - DH
I would also like to see Yanks give Hughes the 4 spot and sign a
veteran starter to a minor league contract - like they did with
Milton/Zambrano, and see if Hughes can finally figure it out.
Remember, he is only 22yrs old - most guys his age are still in
the minors.
Lets Go Yankees!

Ah, I now know the answer to where Teixeira is going to bat this season.

Not only does Girardi love the whole righty-lefty thing in the lineup - but here are Teixeira's career numbers from each slot in the order:

Position BA HR RBI R OBP SLG

3rd .311 82 293 238 .394 .573

4th .278 77 247 211 .378 .523

He's been significantly more productive hitting 3rd than 4th - especially his batting average.

There you go.

You can bet your arse that Teixeira will be hitting third this season.

You guys left out that BIG FAT TOAD. IRABU

I’m glad that Ruse brought up Marichal and Spahn. What incredible pitchers! I especially loved Marichal’s high leg kick. Check out the films one day,

Another two guys that you folks would have loved was Robin Roberts and Early Wynn. Then there was the dean of great knuckballers, Hoyt Wilhelm.

Have any of you heard of Luis Arroyo? Arroyo really only had one great year and he timed it right. In 1960 he was 5 – 1, 2.88 after joining the Yankees. Traded from the Reds in 59, he was an unbelievable closer for the Yanks in 61. In fact, he closed out an awful lot of Ford’s victories that year. He had a great screwball. Don’t know what went wrong after that (or before 60 for that matter!) but he was truly dominant in 61; 15 -5, 2.19 ERA, 29 Saves with 119 innings in 54 games, an average of over two innings per appearance – as a closer! The year before with the Yanks, he was 5 -1, 2.88. I guess all the innings burned him out?

If You want to boast Tom Seaver then you have to boast this guy right here as THE BEST!

1907 19 WSH AL 5 9 14 12 11 2 2 0 110.3 100 35 23 1 20 71 2 4 442 0 1.88 2.41 129 1.088
1908 20 WSH AL 14 14 36 30 23 6 6 1 256.3 194 75 47 0 53 160 11 13 1009 1 1.65 2.29 139 0.964
1909 21 WSH AL 13 25 40 36 27 4 3 1 296.3 247 112 73 1 84 164 15 12 1257 0 2.22 2.42 109 1.117
1910 22 WSH AL 25 17 45 42 38 8 3 1 370.0 262 92 56 1 76 313 13 21 1402 0 1.36 2.49 183 0.914
1911 23 WSH AL 25 13 40 37 36 6 3 1 322.3 292 119 68 8 70 207 8 17 1335 0 1.90 3.27 172 1.123 MVP-5
1912 24 WSH AL 33 12 50 37 34 7 13 2 369.0 259 89 57 2 76 303 16 11 1426 0 1.39 3.37 242 0.908 MVP-3
1913 25 WSH AL 36 7 48 36 29 11 11 2 346.0 232 56 44 9 38 243 9 3 1305 0 1.14 2.96 259 0.780 MVP-1
1914 26 WSH AL 28 18 51 40 33 9 9 1 371.7 287 88 71 3 74 225 11 14 1438 1 1.72 2.82 164 0.971
1915 27 WSH AL 27 13 47 39 35 7 8 4 336.7 258 83 58 1 56 203 19 7 1305 0 1.55 2.96 191 0.933
1916 28 WSH AL 25 20 48 38 36 3 10 1 369.7 290 105 78 0 82 228 9 9 1449 0 1.90 2.80 147 1.006
1917 29 WSH AL 23 16 47 34 30 8 13 3 326.0 248 105 80 3 68 188 12 7 1284 0 2.21 2.63 119 0.969
1918 30 WSH AL 23 13 39 29 29 8 10 3 326.0 241 71 46 2 70 162 8 8 1261 0 1.27 2.71 214 0.954
1919 31 WSH AL 20 14 39 29 27 7 10 2 290.3 235 73 48 0 51 147 7 4 1155 1 1.49 3.19 214 0.985
1920 32 WSH AL 8 10 21 15 12 4 6 3 143.7 135 68 50 5 27 78 5 5 594 1 3.13 3.71 118 1.128
1921 33 WSH AL 17 14 35 32 25 1 2 1 264.0 265 122 103 7 92 143 2 7 1119 0 3.51 4.11 117 1.352
1922 34 WSH AL 15 16 41 31 23 4 9 4 280.0 283 115 93 8 99 105 7 3 1195 0 2.99 3.87 129 1.364 MVP-17
1923 35 WSH AL 17 12 42 34 18 3 8 4 261.3 263 112 101 9 73 130 20 2 1097 0 3.48 3.78 109 1.286 MVP-20
1924 36 WSH AL 23 7 38 38 20 6 0 0 277.7 233 97 84 10 77 158 10 4 1148 0 2.72 4.06 149 1.116 MVP-1
1925 37 WSH AL 20 7 30 29 16 3 1 0 229.0 217 95 78 7 78 108 7 1 967 0 3.07 4.21 137 1.288
1926 38 WSH AL 15 16 33 33 22 2 0 0 260.7 259 120 105 13 73 125 5 2 1101 0 3.63 3.86 106 1.274
1927 39 WSH AL 5 6 18 15 7 1 2 0 107.7 113 70 61 7 26 48 7 1 460 0 5.10 4.05 79 1.291
+--------------+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+-----+---+---+-----+-----+----+-----+
21 Yr WL% .599 417 279 802 666 531 110 129 34 5914.7 4913 1902 1424 97 1363 3509 203 155 23749 4 2.17 3.18 147 1.061

Next people are going to say Rollie Fingers Sutter were better than MO

Lol @ Brew Crew!

I guess he/she forgot that the Commish's Daughter owns the team that he "supposedly" handed over to her. Plus it's strange
how they were jetisoned to the weaker NL...hmmmmmmm? Don't throw stones and all!

Tom Terrific was amazing and one of the best I ever saw. Nolan probably was the best I ever saw over an extended period.

Did The Bronx Bomber post that, or The Zodiac?

Bomber,

You do realize pasting all those stats within these narrow margins really doesn't enhance your argument because people can't read through all that gibberish.

It might as well be written in Chinese.

BOMBER

I never said Seaver was the "best" pitcher.Post WW11 RH pitchers he'd have to rank in the top 1-3.

Pre WW11 pitchers like
Walter Johnson
Mathewson
Alexander
Grove
Hubbell
etc.
were GREAT pitchers make no mistake.

Viper I said that 19 hours ago

Your right Viper.

My thing is i nbaseball with the smaller parks and lifespan of pitcher extremly short and hitters that was posting numbers out of this world to survive and pitch pure dominance in an era where you can be destroyed is something worth noting I posted Johnson stats becasue in 21 years his numbers DESTROY absolutley CRUSHES Tom SEAVERS. people wil largue he pitched in a dead ball era and that would be my case exactly i ndefending pitchers like Pedro who had to pitch in the Video era as well if pedro had retired after his 1st season as a met he era would be like 2.50 or lower as of now with his failure in recent years his era is 2.96 that is sick in this era.

I love my Yankees but Whitey FOrd would have been had , he would have been no better if not worse than Greg Maddux

My elders told me in watching Walter ,that he would have succeeded today due to his size and power, another pitcher that historians would tell you was incredible was Satchel Paige, was pitching effectivly in his 50's

If you're gonna trade anyone it should be Swisher. Dealing Nady would be a mistake he has a great bat (provided we saw it less than a half-season) a good glove and drives in runs when we need it. Also, I'd rather see Gardner starting in center than Melky. We need to let Gardner get some at-bats and give him a chance. I feel he has more upside than Melky and can help by being on base and annoying pitchers with his speed.

Bomber- Of course we can't forget "The Big Train"!
John G. saw him play as a rookie when John was in college...right John, ya old fart! hahaha...just kidding John, don't treat me like a bowling pin!

I hate this topic. I dont have first hand knowledge on any of these players, except for Pedro and Unit of course. can we get a really nice debate going on? Like, a thread of what a possibly situation would be if we were to pull in manny, or your dream team roster for '09? Something interesting like that. Make it good. im bored with school work! ha

2009 Yankee Opening Day Active 25 Man Roster (*Tenative*)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Lineup:
1. Damon (LF)
2. Jeter (SS)
3. Teixeira (1B)
4. Alex (3B)
5. Matsui (DH)
6. Nady (RF)
7. Posada (C)
8. Cano (2B)
9. Melky (CF)

Bench: Gardner, Swisher, Ransom, Molina

Rotation:
1. CC *
2. Wang
3. Burnett
4. Joba
5. Hughes

Bullpen:
Mariano (CL)
Veras
Mate*
Bruney
Ramirez
Albaladejo
Coke *

* = Lefty

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

This is obviously my prediction of the opening day roster. I believe Melky will beat out Gardner for the everyday CF spot. But I also believe Gardner is great to have on the bench because of his speed and I think Girardi values that quite a bit. Regardless Gardner will probably be tossed between AAA and the Majors a bit.

The rotation is pretty much set unless Pettitte comes up. In that case most of the young guys (Hughes, Kennedy, Aceves) are going to start in the minors and be called up when needed.

I think the idea of having the 2nd lefty in Coke coming in for longer relief and maybe even making a start here and there adds a lot to the team. The rest of that bullpen was looking really good last year and I think they will continue to get better. Albaladejo was lights out in the fall league.

What does everyone think?

My original argument was merely that I would put Seaver up against anyone who's ever pitched. I didn't say he would beat that person - I'd just put him up against anyone. And bomber, you're borderline insane if you think Pedro's career was better than Seaver's. And that other guy who pitched in 1908 - I was 4 years old back then.

All right Dru, round two: and seriously speaking.....

Of course it's sour grapes. You think the Brewers are happy that they have no shot to sign a player? And that the team signing that player is making two other high priced signings at the same time?

It's stupid. I'm not advocating parity because everyone knows that having a dominant team is good for the sport. However, you still need to earn that dominance, and it's ridiculous that the Yankees are able to blow everyone out of the water on payroll. Even the Red Sox. The Yankees don't earn their 90+ win average. They just sign and sign and sign and cover up mistakes. Other teams can't do that.

You can't blame the Yankees. Levine is right about that. The Yankees aren't stupid. If you have an advantage, exploit it. At the same time, they are throwing the fact that no one else can make these multiple signings in everyone's face, which is only bound to create a backlash -- and eventually force change. So they have that to be concerned about.

I don't think a cap necessarily lowers the top salaries if it's done somewhat liberally. You can still have a minority of teams with the largest payrolls, but it shouldn't be one team that dwarfs everyone. The Yankees 40-man roster was $75M higher than the Red Sox last season. That's freaking ridiculous.

Again, not the Yankees' fault, but it's a joke that needs to be addressed. Otherwise with the new stadium in the Bronx, this is just going to get worse.

Jim A,

I AM old! :-) My birthday's in 2 weeks come to think of it. (52).

I won't treat you like a bowling pin.Thank goodness that the league starts up again tomorrow (Thursday) as I'm going through with drawl.

Seth,

Get some good baseball encyclopedia-type books and read up on these guys. Or use the internet. You seem to really like the game so it would worthwhile for you to do this.

Bomber,

MO is the greatest, hands down! No other reliever is in his class, period.

No one's gonna argue that point with you.

Im fine with the pitching although id love pettite for depth. But the lineup i feel is gonna be alot less productive than one may think. Cano hasnt exactly had a strong track record of starting good and last season couldnt get started yet everyone is counting him as an automatic rebound. I too, think he should rebound but I dont know if he will. Hes the first question mark. Second, is Posoda/Matsui. Both were injured for the majority of last season and cannot be expected to return to usual form, although i would expect more of a smooth bounce back from Matsui than posoda. Finally, Jeter. Its hard to admit but last season he showed his first real signs of skid marks and slowing down. His power numbers, average, defense and overall production slowed. If he could keep his numbers similar or even better than last year, we will be in great shape, but if he has a smiliar dropoff from his lsat year numbers this year, then we are in trouble at the top. For all of these reasons, i feel we need 1 more bat. No need to say his name. Most New Yorkers feel i may be acting greedy or ridiculous but think about how many question marks we have.

By the way, Seaver's 20 year winning percentage was actually higher than Walter Johnson.

That said, I haven't heard/seen any real discussion on Swisher playing CF next year. He did play 70 games in CF last year, and perhaps could be thought of as a backup corner guy, or perhaps battle it out with Melk Man and Brett for starting CF position. Thoughts?

McCarthy- I think the Yanks are okay with Ransom backing up the infield positions with the exception of SS, so I have a feeling they may pick someone up or use Angel Berroa if he makes the team and send whichever CF doesn't make the team down and let Swisher be the backup CF.

By the way, I downloaded game 7 of the 2003 ALCS on my iPod today and just watched some of it while on a conference call at work and a couple of things stuck out:
1. The raw emotion that every player showed during the game, Sox and Yanks. At one point Jeff Nelson was shown clasping his hands begging for something good to happen. Then you have Mo collapsing on the mound after the game (funny note here: Lee Mazzilli kept trying to pick Mo up but couldn't do it and then Willie Randolph came over and picked him up like he was a bag of groceries); Giambi kissing Torre on the cheek and both of them in tears; Zim crying in the clubhouse- this is a guy who literally has seen it all in baseball!

2. I remember originally thinking that Aaron Boone's reaction was just sort of "eh, whatever" but watching again shows that he was just stunned, completely speechless. His brother Brett proved he was possibly the worst guest broadcaster in history during that game as well by the way- horrible, horrible job by him.

3. Pure class on the part of Grady Little congratulating the Yankees and Joe Torre after the game.

4. And finally- Hal's hair looked.....normal! Men don't usually change their hairstyles but in 5 years, Hal's has changed dramatically. I mean, guys go with the comb-over when they are in denial but other than that, dudes don't change their hair but Hal has some funky stuff going on with his. Weird.

Man, I loved that game.

Jeter played hurt for nearly 2 months last season and everyone is talking about "skid marks" and the like.

Jeter hit .324 in the 2nd half .
.343 August/Sept.

Yes he grounded into DPs but only a few more than his yearly average.He grounded into 11 DPs in June/July which is when he played hurt.

JOhn: its not that i dont know those players i know alot i jsut dont know from them personally or their best games or anything

HERES A GREAT THREAD TO START:::
WHAT IS THE BEST BEST BEST YANKEES GAME THAT YOU HAVE EVER SEEN (YOU HAD TO BE LIVING; SEE IT LIVE!)

ILL START:
THE BEST GAME IVE EVER SEEN WAS THE ONE VS. BOSTON WHERE JETER WAS DIVING INTO THE STANDS! BEST GAME! COULD SOMEONE PLEASE FIND ME THE DATE ON THAT GAME AND PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS!

Just curious, did Jeter ever admit he played hurt - or are we all assuming that was the case based on the HBP early on?

ruse: not saying he wasnt hurt, but obviously he isnt performing at his usual level, even before the injury. And yes, he picked it up late, which he usually does, after starting slow.

Brew...good stuff man, I fully understand your point of view. If I wasnt a Yankee fan, born and bred, I would hate them too. The Yanks getting these guys isnt new though, its been like that for years. Also, look at the last 8 years, you have 7 different teams that won the WS, 4 from the NL and 3 from the AL. Even when the Yanks were winning back in the 90's, it wasnt because they outspent teams, it was a core of homegrown talent that did it. Ever since they got back into the business of buying the biggest baddest FA's, they have 0 rings. Getting these guy guarantees us squat and rings arent won in December. Still the Yanks had 88M coming off the books so, yeah, it looks bad if you dont see the whole picture of the Yanks actually lowering their payroll this year. As for the Sox, they werent outbid by that much, they played a games of Poker with Boras and lost. If they would have known all it would take was 180, they would have went there, they have the money..they chose not to. Sometimes that hard stance works out, but they lost this time.

Again, I understand the level playing field point of view as far as spending. Just dont expect it to change anytime soon. You have to understand that the Yankees are a money making business, people from around the world know the Yankee brand. The merchandising alone ( which they share with every other team ) far exceeds any other team. At least they put that money back into the team, something any fan of any team can appreciate. Statistics show that when the Yanks are good, baseball's revenue as a whole increases. Love em or hate em, the Yanks are good for baseball. If I was a Rays fan, with all that whats happened over the winter, I would love beating the Yanks even more in 09. History has proven that you cannot just buy championships, all the Yanks do is increase their chances.

Sometimes I envy the mid to small market teams, they get to see their homegrown talent come up and when they do win, its that much sweeter. From your team I love Braun, Fielder and Gallardo. I used to have a man crush on Sheets as well.

Brew Town, I respect you for coming back on, no hard feelings.

Good luck to you this year.

DRU, youre absolutely right. When homegrown talent wins, it is that much sweeter. In a way, i hope Hughes makes it up and cano, gardener and melky come up big and we have jeter and posoda and wang and joba and our whole bullpen practically. This would be a sweet year as everyone is freeken hungry. I can feel it. These Free Agent signings are not the same ones from the last 7 years. They just sound so ready to take on the big stage, especially Burnett and Tex. CC i felt was alittle uncomfortable at the press although played it off well. I cant wait, i think everyone has realized its time and have a fire in their belly. Maybe these young kids here for the 1st time could bring back that fire to us.

Brew Town:

You make a lot of valid points. I think that the Brewers legit beef isn't with the Yankees so much as it's with the league. They knew going into the Sabathia trade that their chances of keeping him were non-existant but justified the trade by saying 1) He'll help us get to the playoffs this year and 2) We'll get a first round pick for him when he leaves. When the Yankees signed Tex that pushed the first round pick to a second round pick and that's when you saw members of Milwaukee's front office get angry. Attanasio didn't make his salary cap comment when the Yankees signed CC, he did it when they swooped on Tex. And that's a legitmate complaint, but it isn't one the Yankees control. It's baseball's compensation system that needs to be adjusted.

As for backlash - I assume you mean a salary cap. It will never happen. The player's union is just too strong for that to ever be a consideration. It isn't about lowering the amount of money players can make. The union sees a salary cap as a way for owners to get around collusion.

And what's more, owners may complain about the Yankees (and other teams that spend a fortune on players) but they know that those teams bring crowds to their stadiums. Those teams raise the revenue for the league as a whole and those teams are the ones that contribute the most to revenue sharing. I think you'll hear owners make noise, but in the end they won't do anything about it.

Also, in the end, some of the owners who we've heard clamour for a salary cap want it as a way to prevent them from making their own stupid deals. Drayton McClane is a perfect example of this - he would love a salary cap so that he doesn't sign another Carlos Lee contract.

I think one of the best trends around the game is that teams are locking up players in their arbitration years to long term contracts that erase the first couple of years of free agency like you did with Braun. But there will always be guys who slip through the cracks (Prince) - who want to go year to year.

Seth -

I don't know if that's entirely true about a team of "homegrown" players making a championship sweeter.

The Red Sox in 2004 won the title with only one homegrown player (Trot Nixon) on the roster - I would wager that was sweeter given the history than the title they won in 2007 with Youk, Pedroia, Lester and Papelbon.

The first Marlins' title came with mercinaries like Kevin Brown, Mosies Alou, Sheff, Leiter - vs. 2003 when it was Beckett, Willis, Miguel Cabrera...

Now that being said, I would rather have a team of players I like win a title than a team of players I accept winning a title. I would be happier if this year's Yankees win than I would have been if the 2005 team won because I didn't really like guys like Sheff or Randy Johnson. I accepted them because they were Yankees, but I had trouble rooting for them.

Good luck to you as well. CC is fun to watch!!! He goes to war every time he pitches. A Milwaukee... aghhhhh... New York kind of guy!!!!!!

Brew Town:

One more thing on a salary cap:

From my perspective the salary cap has not made the NFL a better sport, it has just forced every team to be mediocre as opposed to having any one team be really good. I also think that it's BS to tell a team that even though they are more financially successful they can't use that success to their advantage. It would be as if I turned to you, a person making 200k a year and said, "Since Dru only makes $30,000 a year I'm limiting what you can spend so that Dru can feel better about himself." You would go nuts. You earned that money and you should be able to spend it however you like.

Things cost more in NY than they do in Milwaukee, so the Yankees charge more for tickets so they generate more revenue so they have more money to spend on their team. It's a credit to the Steinbrenners that they, unlike so many other owners around the game, are willing to put so much revenue back into their team when they could easily pocket it like is the trend around the game.

Let's not forget that George Steinbrenner has never been the richest owner in baseball. Let's look at the man who just passed away- Carl Pohlad. He was a multi-billionaire but he just never cared to put money back into the team like George and now the boys are doing.
I read in someone's book (can't remember who it was, but he was the owner of a sports team) that you cannot get into sports to make money. He said sports ownership is for rich, competitive guys who want to show off their toys (think Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones).

Bud Selig is a rich man, so are the owners of the Royals, Marlins and every other team in the league. They should stop lining their pockets and put money into the team- that will get fannies in the seats at their stadiums. They don't have the right to sit around and cry about how the big bad Yankees are killing everyone. The Yanks haven't won jack squat in 8 years!

Chip,
obviously given the circumstance it is different. Its just seeing players that came through the system that you obviously like. If they brought all random single a guys to the team and they won, it wouldnt be fun. But, weve seen melky for 2 years now, gardener lasty yr, cano for 3 years, wang for 3 or 4 years, jeter forever, posoda forever, rivera forever, hughes maybe coming up, joba for 2 years, and a whole new stack of bullpen men that everyone loves. Plus a whole new core of players that are hungry to win. I would love to see this team win its one of my favorites in years.

Seth,
The Yanks used to have a farm team, the Prince William Cannons near where I live in Virginia and I remember seeing Bernie Williams play for them when he was a skinny little bean pole who wore glasses.

Having said that, I get behind anyone wearing the pinstripes. I'd love for the youngsters to develop and be like Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Andy and of course Mo and play together for years and years but if it doesn't happen and the Yanks can still win- so be it.

I vaguely asked this question a couple of weeks ago and didn't get any response so I'm trying again.

What player who never played for the Yankees would you say is your favorite? For me it's Torii Hunter. I just love his personality. I love that he's always got that big smile going and handles himself the right way. He's always seemed to have a genuine respect for the Yankees too, as if part of him was saying "damn, I wish just one year I could play there." I remember a series that the Yankees played in Minnesota where the Yankees just whipped the Twins, I mean start to finish for 4 games, and at the end of the last game someone asked Hunter what was wrong with the Twins and he looked at the reporter and said something along the lines of "Did you actually see the team they ran out against us these four days? They don't mess around over there. In fact I'm getting dressed, getting in my car, following their bus to the airport and waiting to make sure they leave so I can get some sleep tonight."

3 words chip
Ken Griffey Jr. "The Kid"
Thats actually 5, wait no 7, no 10, 12, 13, lol

Seth -

I could see that. He would be up there on my list too but when I was your age (which wasn't that long ago) Junior had some serious contempt for the Yankees so I had some serious contempt for Junior. In fact, we used to have a particular chant to serenade Junior and former Yankee Jay Buhner with whenever the Mariners came to Yankee Stadium.

Seth: Stay in school kid!

Chip: It's Griffey Jr. for me too.....that swing...oh that swing!

Sth,

I believe the catch was in 2004 and extra innings.

My all time fave was the '78 Bucky Dent Home Run game! Second was pettitte's 1-0 beauty against the Braves where Oneil makes the great grab.

Seth,

July 1, 2004 was the date..

Gracias realist.

Jim A: Wiffle Ball, he is my money ball swing lefty Griffey Jr. 24 Baby i always wanted him to b a yankee so bad ha

Does any1 know where i can get this video on tape anywhere or download it from somewhere? So i dont have to wait for yankees classics to roll around again. lol

Check u Tube I am sure you can find it there...

Chip, my pick is Jon Matlack for the Mutts.
But I remember Seaver too. Tom Terrific was nasty - averaging
200+ strikeouts per season for something like 8-9 seasons in
a row, pitching on Mutt teams that couldn't hit their way out of a
paper bag. A real bulldog. When he gave up 4 runs, it was like,
"whats wrong with Seaver, it looks like he doesn't have his good
stuff today".
Liked all of those Mutt starters:
Seaver
Koosman
Matlack (co-AllStar MVP with Bill Madlock, I think)

Guys, stay tuned to MLB Network tonight at 7 for the hot stove! Great great stuff. As far as Harold Reynolds is concerned, notice how lately, he says okay, your turn, your turn, and tries not to cut peolpe off as much haa

Maybe Im a gluten for punishment, but I always liked/admired/respected guys that beat up on the Yanks.

Griffey
Edgar Martinez
Papi
Pedro
Cal Ripken
Kirby Puckett
Manny

Someone that beat up on us that I didnt like was Clemens. Ive always hated that guy, it took the WS win and him destroying Piazza for me to warm up to him. If I had to choose one, I think Griffey would get the nod. Ive never seen someone so gifted at the plate and in the field. He OWNED us when he was in Seattle. Ill never forget that 95 series, the 1st time I saw the Yanks in the playoffs, my freshman year in college. Griffey tore my heart out just like Jordan tore my heart out year after year destroying the Knicks. I hated both players at the time, but learned to love them over time.

Manny is another 1 Dru. I love Manny even though hes a Yankee killer.

We don't need to look for any outfielders right now. We have enough options internally. Swisher is definitely a keeper. If Tex gets hurt, who plays 1B? You would also be dealing Swisher when his value was lowest. Let's find out what he can give us. He genuinely wants to be a Yankee. When Damon, Nady and Matsui expire next year, I can see Swisher manning a corner OF spot. The chances of having an OF of Melky, Gardner and Jackson next year are very slim. Swisher is signed for the next few years. I'd like us to go into ST with what we have right now.

Meanwhile, deep in the heart of Texas, Andy awaits his next ego massage. Hopefully he doesn't get it. Not from the Yanks anyway. $10million offered for possibly damaged goods and he turns it down. We don't need this guy.

I read the post above about Edgar Martinez ... and those great Seattle teams. Funny how Seattle lost RJ, A Rod and Griffey and then set the all time win record. Didn't they win like 120 games without the three best players on the planet all in their prime? There's a lesson in that, but I am not sure what it is.

I wish the season was starting right now. All the pieces are in place but the Yanks fortunes may still rest in how guys like Coke and Aceves and Gardner fill in with their appointed rolls. Boston peaked last July and faded in the stretch. Tampa will be strong again. But I think the Yanks will win the division if they are healthy.

Man O Man, Edgar used to kill us! Im not sure on the exact numbers, but we could not get that guy out. He was so clutch against us. It was a close race between Edgar and Griffey, but I went with the crazy talented guy over the crazy clutch guy. Both guys were great, I hated them...and loved them.

Apparently the Reds are interested in a deal with the Yanks..
the Yanks could use Harang, Bruce, or others....

http://www.rototimes.com/index.php?league=MLB

Xavier Nady, RF - New York Yankees

January 7 @ 5:30pm CT

Reds talking trade with Yankees - The Reds have held talks with the Yankees regarding Xavier Nady among other players, according to the Cincinnati Enquirer.
Our View
Nady was somewhat of a disappointment after the Yankees acquired him from Pittsburgh last season. He finished the season with 25 home run and 97 RBI, while hitting .305.
Nick Swisher, 1B - New York Yankees
January 7 @ 5:26pm CT

Reds interested in Swisher - The Cincinnati Enquirer reports that Reds GM Walt Jocketty has had multiple discussions with Yankees GM Brian Cashman regarding Nick Swisher among others.

When Swisher, if he isn't traded first, can prove he can hit .275 ,drive in runs with any degree of consistency,cut down on his SO totals, hit in pressure situations, lifetime .228 w/2 outs RISP, then and only then will NY consider him an everyday corner OF.
The Yanks don't need Swisher to spell Tex or an OF .

Lol, thinking of those damn 90's Mariners there is one guy who ALWAYS killed the Yanks..Joey Cora that little pr#ck!

Scarletknight,

Harang had a horrible ERA in the NL, not so sure how effective he would be in the AL East?

ScarletKnight

Thanks for the info.Bruce is untouchable.Votto is on 1st.The Reds do need a corner OF.Swisher could net them Bray and a mid level prospect .Harang is intriguing at 7 million .

My last post on your Yankee blog. And... it has nothing to do with baseball. Marquette at Rutgers tonight. Another Milwaukee New York/New Jersey battle. Who wins??????? Good luck to the yanks this year and to Dru, round two goes to Milwaukee!!

Brew Town,

Marquette looks damn good and I would have to side with them.

Now Syracuse is my team........;-)

Realist :

To bad we can't bet on that game. Flynn against James will be an epic battle. Flynn dominated James last year!!! So he owes Cuse one. The Big East is so fun, every game is a big one. Good Night New York.

Please cash do not trade Nady. Harang is garbage. Sorry. Not for our divison. If we can net Jay Bruce, go for it.

OK Brew, we'll call it a draw, just cuz I like you so much. ; )

Im a UCONN fan myself, David Price, "The Amityville Horror!" The Big East is the best. That game they played against the Zags a couple weeks ago was epic!

If there was any way the Yanks could get Harang, I would do it! Here's what the rest of his contract looks like =

$11 million in 2009
$12.5 million in 2010.
Club option for 2011 at $12.75 million with a $2 million buyout.

Thats a pretty good price for a very underrated SP in Harang. He may pitch in the NL, but has been doing so in one of THE most hitter friendly parks. If he came to the AL East, his ERA may go up, but not as much as say a guy coming from Petco. Id say he sits around 4.50

I love Harang's game, very durable ( little injury last year ) over his career, will be 31 this season. His numbers are very solid, K's about a batter per 8, has between a 3//1 lifetime K to BB ratio ( was more of a 4-1 in 06 + 07 ). The guy is a big workhorse ( 6'7" 275 lbs ) and I would love to bring him on. If that meant leaving Hughes and Ian in the minors for 1 extra year, so be it. Hopefully they will both be chomping at the bit when the 2011 season kicks off. Also, Im sure that they will get their fair share of starts within the next 2 years. They would still only be 24 and 26 at the start of the 2011 season, hardly over the hill. That should give them plenty of time to build up endurance and secondary pitches. Then when Harang goes, one of them should be primed to take over. Best case scenario its Ian, then 3 more years later Hughes will be a big burly 27 year old ready to take over for AJ. I know, MANY things can happen from now till the AJ contract expires, but still, the best case scenarios are pretty darn good. Plus does anyone really think AJ is a lock to finish out this contract tossing 200 innings?

I love the idea of Harang for the next two years, he would be a MONSTER in the 4 hole. I hope these rumors are true and its not another Ichiro case where you guys get me all worked up for nothing..lol

DRU, i hope its not true. Period. But are the Ichiro rumors officially dead?

Dru,
Like you, I always hated Clemens and even had trouble digesting him as a Yankee. With him as a Yankee, I truly rooted for the uniform. Three memories of "Rawga" come to mind besides Suzyn Waldman wetting herself when he was in George's bawx, you would have thought he was in her bawx the way she acted but back to my three memories:

1. While pitching for Boston, my guess is around 1990, he drilled Matt Nokes, the Yankees catcher. The ball stuck in Nokes' armpit and Nokes hung on to the ball and half way down to first base he fired it back to Clemens- who just looked away after he caught the ball.

2. I wanted Mike Piazza to go nuts and whup his butt when he threw the bat at him- probably the only time I wanted to see a Yankee lose a fight.

3. The look on his face when Joe Torre took him out of the game in the ALCS game 7of '03. He looked at Torre like he was crazy for taking him out of that game even though he had given up 4 runs in less than 3 innings and he had more men on base. Typical Clemens if you ask me (Moose bailed us out big time that night as I'm sure you all remember).

Im with you Jim, Clemens was always throwing up and in to us when he was on the Sox and Jays, it felt dirty when he put on the uniform. I cant believe that we needed him so bad that we paid him that silly amount of money for half a season of crap. That whole speech he made during the game saying he was coming back made me want to throw up. Thanks god that chapter is all over with.

So I was looking for any info on Harang to the Yanks, I came across a Red website and found something pretty funny =

===============================
10 Things On Which My Heart Disagrees with My Head

7. MLB Network is awesome. My heart: "Wow, a network devoted entirely to the national pasttime." My head: "Oh great, more chances to see Yankees and Red Sox highlights and more screaming talking-heads saying nothing worth hearing."

8. MLB needs a salary cap & floor. My head realizes that smart teams can win in any conditions. My heart knows that its favorite team does not appear to be one of those smart teams and would like some help.
===============================

haha

I cant find anything to confirm the Harang rumors, please post any links if you have em...thanks.

As far as Ichiro, Im not even going to look into it, dont want to get my hopes up like that. The Harang deal seems more realistic to me, CINN wants to dump Aaron's contract to make room for some of their young arms and to go after a FA bat. Maybe Abreu would be a good fit for them, he's a good example for Bruce and Votto at the plate.

I dont care as long as we dont give up nady. i would really love to net Bruce though

PTI mistake...if we traded Swisher or Nady for Harang, the Reds wouldnt pick up Abreu...disregard.

Seth, there is no way the Reds are going to give up Bruce for 1 year of Nady. Jay is one of the best OF prospects in the league, Ian wouldnt net him. It would take a Hughes for Bruce trade to get him, there's no way Id be behind that one.

I dont want to trade Nady either, I love the guy, but he's not untradeable. If he netted us a workhorse, sinkerballer who can K 200 guys a year like Aaron, Id jump all over it. If Andy wont sign for 10, then why not get Harang, who is much better than Andy is today, for around the same price? We would still have Swisher available for RF and the bottom of the order. The net gain in production from having Harang would exceed the production lost by replacing Nady with Swisher...if there was any loss at all.

DRU, i understand your logic but the guy hasnt seen competition like the AL East and he has never pitched 1 big game in his life. I think Nady is going to be more essential to the middle part of our order than most people think. everyone is assuming that Posoda and Matsui are going to be regular form. Also, i never said kennedy would net him. Im saying the only way i give up Nady in a trade is if we get a high young prospect or an established player that is also young (relatively) and even then im hesitant because i like nady alot

Me and Dru have been debating for a few posts so ill formally ask:

Harang, or No Harang? And if So, For what price? (in terms of players)

Does anyone know the total amount of money Andy Pettitte has made in his entire career, from the signing bonus from his Junior College to his first tour with the Yanks, all the bonus money for Playoffs and World Series, then his time in Houston, then coming back to the Yanks ... how much should he have in the bank? I would say at least 20 or 30 million, maybe more?

So while the Yanks could give him US$ 16 million for another 14 wins and 200 innings (considering the money squandered on Clemens II, Igawa's posting fee, Pavano), really, does Andy need that other US$ 6 million.

I have mentioned Mike Hampton leaving Atlanta for another US$ 2 million in incentives, now finally healthy, after pocketing US$ 120 million, plus his money from the Mets, first Houston tour and so forth.

Atlanta paid him over US$ 1 million per win. If you have over a hundred million, or fifty million, or whatever, do you really need another US$ 2 million?

How much do you really need?

If someone came up to Bronx Bomber or Seth or Dru or Jim A. with a bag filled with US$ 10 million would you hand it back and say, "Oh no, I'm highly insulted?"

Yeaaaah....not sure the Reds need to dump Harang's contract that badly. They are putting together a solid team and rotation of Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto and Harang. That has a hell of a lot of potential. The fact they need a cheap solid offensive outfielder does make it interesting though.....

But if I am the Reds, I can't imagine accepting a deal for Harang for just Nady. A young pitcher would probably have to go with him (Kennedy, Albaladejo, Coke to name a few)

Also....here is Harang's contract according to Cot's:

4 years/$36.5M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option

* 4 years/$36.5M (2007-10), plus 2011 club option
o re-signed by Cincinnati 2/07 (avoided arbitration, $5.5M-$4.25M)
o 07:$4.25M, 08:$6.75M, 09:$11M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$12.75M ($2M buyout)
o 2011 option increases to $13M with 210 IP in 2010
o if traded, 2011 option becomes mutual option at $14M ($2.5M buyout)

That bottom line makes this a little less enticing for me.......

To add to my previous post.....

I really like Harang, i think hes nasty. He also has a solid track record in inter-league games against AL times (including the Sox and Rays in small sample size).

22 Games Started - 3.12 ERA against AL teams

So I don't think that would be as big of an issue as some people may think. Giving up Nady straight up for Harang would add some serious depth to our rotation for at least two years, maybe three. But it also creates a major question mark in RF for this year.

With that said I would make a move for him and give up Nady and Kennedy at the most. None of our solid young relief pitchers. Certainly not Hughes.

All this talk about the tough AL East makes me laugh outside of NY and Boston what other lineup is loaded? Baltimore ? Tampa? Toronto? Maybe in the recent past but now?
Tampa won with pitching in 08

Clemens highlights in pinstripes for me :

The clinching Game 4 win vs Atlanta in the 1999 WS

The 1 hit shutout 15 SO 138 pitch CG win vs.Seattle in 2000 playoffs when he made AROD poop his pants.

The 2 hitter vs.Mets in the 2000 WS

Dominating game 3 win in the 2001 WS
and game 7 keeping it close at 1-0 thru 7

but I always thought he was a jerk.

I have to agree with Ingognito's assessment of Sandy Koufax being the most dominant pitcher during his prime. I would like to add that Sandy Koufax pitched the greatest game I have ever seen. His opening pitching performance in the 1963 World Series against the Yankees was unbelievable. I played hooky from school that day, just could not miss watching the opening game, with Whitey going against Koufax. Ford was my favorite pitcher of all time, but I came away from the game in awe of Sandy Koufax. He shut out the Yankees that opening game, striking out 15. It was not just the shut out and 15 Ks, but the way the Yankees were missing the ball. They would swing at the ball and you would see so much space between the bat and the ball. They were not coming close to hitting it. Even Bobby Richardson who rarely struck out, could not make contact with the ball. I believe Koufax struck Richardson out 4 times. As time has eroded my memory, I could be a little off on the 4 Ks. I would just like to add that I am so impressed with all of the great input on this site. I have been a lifetime Yankee fan and can remember growing up in the Bronx during the 1950s, and being confronted by older kids as to what baseball team I rooted for. I had a 1 out of 3 chance of not getting punched in the arm for giving a wrong answer. Those were great times for NY baseball. As for the current team, I really hope they keep Nady, who does remind me of a right handed version of Paul O'Neil. I would like to see what Gardner can do given the chance to play CF on a regular basis. With his speed, he could put so much pressure on the opposing teams pitchers/defense. Thanks to you all for giving me some enjoyable reading about my favorite sports team. Keep it going!

Stevec. I have to agree with your opinion on trading Nady. He's probably the easiest to trade because of his contract,age, ability and what he would bring back to the team. Damon is a no touch easily seen . Matsui and Swisher are next candidates to be moved. I'd go with Matsui but least likely player to be moved for all the opposite reasons as Nady. Now, Swisher who has a heavy contract for his ability but is desirabile. Why the Yankees are so intent or concerned about Nady's new contarct is besides me when the market will probably be similar to this years and 32 million coming off the payroll with Matsui and Damon after 2009.

The Yankees have displayed such a weakness to lefty pitchers , Nady brings solid performance against this problem. I don't see him as a true O'Niel because he appaears less demonstrative.

Brian Needs to keep Swish and Nady the more I think of either leaving the more it hits me that may not be the best moves , we need a bench and honestly I am not comfortable at all with an OF with Matsui and Damon patrolling along with Melky or Gardner that just does not sit well. And after this year what RH power bat would be in the lineup after Arod that is reliable? basically after posada there will be none and that is a gaping hole, Keep Nady ! then Sign him to an extension.

The Man is Making 3mil per right now

Bomber - that 3 mil is going to make a pretty big jump before the season gets underway - he's up for arbitration and I'm sure when all is said and done he'll be up around 6 or 7 mil. As for signing him to an extension - forget about it - his agent is Scott Boras and Nady will probably be one of the top three outfielders available next winter (with Holliday and Ankiel).

Larry - I don't think the Yankees are concerned about Xavier's contract - I think they are just looking at the roster and seeing that they have excess in one area (corner OF/DH) and holes in two other areas (rotation depth and CF) and looking to use their excess to fill their needs.

McCarthy - I'm not sure that moving Nady creates a major hole in RF since they'll slide Swisher over there. I think it creates a hole on the bench - but that would be easily filled with two signings (Eric Hisnke and Alex Cora). They could also sign either Mark Kotsay or Jim Edmonds to very reasonable 1 year deals to play CF if the team wants insurance against the bats of Gardner and Melky.

In case any of you missed it last night - Boston made two fantastic signings. They locked up John Smoltz and also came to terms with Rocco Baldelli.

Assuming Smoltz and Brad Penny are healthy next year the Boston rotation is about 8 men deep with Lester, Beckett, Dice, Wakefield, Smoltz, Penny, Masterson, Bucholtz. And with Smoltz they have the option of using him either in the rotation or in front of Papelbon at the end of games.

Then you look at their bench - Rocco Baldelli is a heck of an upgrade from Coco Crisp and with Jed Lowrie at SS they have Julio Lugo backing up all infield positions.

Their only holes right now are Catcher - where Bard/Kotteras will likely struggle and 3b where they don't know what to expect from Lowell.

As for the Harang talk above - I think that he's a horse - he'll take the ball each time out and give you your money's worth. Last year he had an awful season but I think he'll rebound. What's even more impressive than the fact that he's always among the NL Strike Out leaders is that he's extremely effective playing in a park that caters to hitters. He's only 30 years old and, although the sample size is very small - he has pitched well against AL teams during interleague play (including Boston).

There are going to be some who look at the contract Harang has (as posted above) and say "well if you're going to give Aaron Harang 11 mil this year and more next year - why not just offer that 11 mil to Andy for one year since you know he can perform here?" And it's a valid point. The thing is that if the deal were to be Nady for Harang then once Nady's contract climbs to around 6 mil next month the Yankees would really only be paying Harang $5 mil next season.

Did anyone read Ken Davidoff's article this morning in this paper? If it is correct, it has me in a thoroughly pissed off frame of mind.

First, Andy Pettitte is mad at the Yankees because he feels they are not appreciating all he has done for the team according to Davidoff. Pettitte has to be kidding me! Have the Yankees not paid this man millions and millions of dollars over the course of his career? Have they not bent over backwards to accommodate his every desire like sticking to one year contracts, letting him report late to spring training so he could hide out at home for a bit?
Did this team not stand by this jackass when he got himself in a pickle with the Mitchell Report? Honestly, I'd really like to see the Yanks make a smart move for a good replacement for him if this is true.

Also, according to the article, the reason for trading Nady is to reduce payroll so we can throw out his being traded for anyone decent and I think it's a huge mistake. To me, as of today I am not even sure the lineup is as good as last season because the Yanks have lost two big producers (each in different ways) and Teixeira can't make up for both of them and we really don't know what to expect of Matsui and Posada yet.

If they trade Nady for nothing that fits the roster, I will go on record as saying it is a mistake. Also, I read or heard somewhere last night that the Yanks were disappointed in Nady's performance after acquiring him- that surprised me because I liked him- and still do.

Chip- I'm not as high on the acquisitions by the Red Sox because too many things have to go right for that situation to work. Their rotation is very, very fragile and Yankees fans know how that type of rotation can go horribly wrong.
With Smoltz I've read that when they opened his shoulder there was considerably more damage to it than otherwise thought.

I've also read that they are considering including Buccholz in some kind of blockbuster trade so we'll need to stand by and see what happens.

That is why Chip you keep your offensive production. for 7 mil I would keep Nady and Honestly I believe Boras would want to talk extension if it is brought up. It is better to handle a cut when it;s a scrape and not gaping as it would be in 2010. There is only one team I would accept Nady being traded to. Plus you cannot trade him for Garbage, You need that right handed bat and if you think your getting Holliday or Bay for 7 mil per I have a yugo to sell you for 100,000.

if nady goes and all else performs the way It was in 08 especially from batting order 5 thru 9 then you doomed your offense, what Nady did for the Yankees in his short time was one of the best clutches we had in that area of the lineup .

To me matsui and Badelli is on the same page your injury prone and have to proove your self. today this should be the OF

Damon

Nady

Swisher

now if one of them is not performing the way we should expect them too then you place Brett in for Defence

as of right now Brett Gardner is your Ricky Ledee type player until proven otherwise. all this inheritance talk is nonsense

Matusi would be your fourth OF or DH now if Posada stinks it up on Defense but stil lhas a hot bat and Matsui is struggling then Matsui is on the bench.

Ever heard of Wally Pipp ?

well somebody would be wally Pipp of the other players do their part.

Your right Chip if you going to pay Harrang 11 mil then you can give that money to Andy and then erase Melky or Brett of the 40 man roster.

Chip -

It may not leave a hole if you move Swisher into right. But it certainly leaves a very large Question Mark. I think we already have a lot of offensive question marks.

Cano - How is he going to respond this year?
Matsui - Can he stay healthy?
Damon - Can he stay healthy?
Jeter - Can he stay healthy?
Swisher - Can he still be productive at the plate?
Melky/Gardner - Are we going to get anything out of these guys in CF?
Posada - Can he continue to catch and stay healthy?

Its been a rocky road the past few years for all of these guys.

Having Nady in that lineup makes me feel a lot better about the offense.

in 228 at bats - He basically batted 270 i na feeler role in a lineup that was deleted of major bats. and his hits were clutch. what was melky's production looking like ? add another 200 at bats and I bet those numbers climb!

Xavier Nady Stats
NYY AL 59 228 26 61 11 0 12 40 1 1 14 48 .268 .320 .474 105 108 0 1 1 4 5

Can the Yanks get a good young catcher for the following trade chips: Nady, Swisher, Melky, Gardner, others? Jorge is not getting any younger.

Aaron Harang?

He may be a horse, but the Reds may need to take him to the glue factory.

He finished the 2008 season with a 4.78 ERA in the NL and has 2yrs/23.5M left on his contract.

Yikes. Not a good idea.

So the Red Sox are on the verge of signing John Smotlz.....

Boston's proposed deal with Smoltz is for $5.5 million in base salary, and $5 million in incentives.

According to Buster.

Thats a solid move for them.

al...they have a couple catching prospects they are high on.

That KEN DAVIDOFF article about Andy pissed me off too Jim, part of me doesnt believe it...or just doesnt want to believe it. That really did get me angry though.

Harang is a solid SP, you're right though, I dont think Nady straight up for him would get it done. As far as his numbers last year, he was suffering from a forearm injury in June, was shut down in July and he got rocked his 1st two starts back from injury in August ( 16 runs in 7 IP ), after that he was back to his normal dominance closing out the season throwing 7 out of 8 quality starts to finish strong - Sept ( 3.07 ERA ). This is the time to trade for this guy, while is stock is slightly lower

I like the X-man, but maybe we're overrating him a little guys? He has a lifetime .335 OBP, Only had a .320 OBP for the Yanks last year. Before his incredible run with Pitt last year, he was nothing more than a .270 hitter with 20 HR power that struck out over 100 times and would only take 30-40 walks. Not really a RH force as some are making him out to be. As far as him being needed to face left handers, he was only a .262 hitter against the southpaws in his breakout year in 08. Maybe he's a late bloomer or maybe he just had one good half season in Pitt that is making his stock soar, I tend to agree with the latter. He was good of us last year, but please dont compare him to Paulie, his numbers arent even close to his. Swisher is a switch hitter, so there's your righty for the lineup when needed, he's younger than Nady, locked up longer than Nady at a decent price, has hit more HR's than Nady, takes MANY more walks than Nady and even though he only hit .219, he led the league in pitches per plate appearance at 4.5 in 08. Hes a grinder that can take a walk and hit it out of the park, think Giambi but with more speed and younger. The bad is that his highest BA is .262, still if you look at his splits, he was horrible at that pitchers park in Oakland. His away stats he hit in the .270's. If Swisher can get to .260, with 30 HR and 100 BB, he would be much more valuable than Nady. Remember Nick is going to be just 28 this year.

As far as the Sox, great signings to get some low cost high upside players. I would have loved Smoltz and Rocco in the BX, lets hope both are shut down by July.

So back to the KEN DAVIDOFF article, if this is true and we are parting ways with Andy, who would you guys want? Smoltz is now off the board, would FA's Colon, Byrd or Lieber be options for you guys? Want to sign Prior or Mulder to minor league deals? Want to make trades for guys like Harang or Washburn? Or are you guys ready to hand the keys to the young guys like Aceves, Phil and Ian?

Viper -

And in the three seasons before last year his highest ERA was 3.8 - there's a difference between an off year and a bad trend - I think Harang's season was the former and not the latter.

Jim -

Typical Andy. When he went to Houston the first time it was because he felt "the Yankees didn't really want him." I'll say it again, he's a more soft spoken Roger Clemens. He wants to trade on his reputation and popularity with Yankee fans to push the team into a public relations corner.

Viper -

Also, I pointed out earlier, if the idea is to trade Nady for Harang, and we assume Nady is going to get a boost up from his $3 mil contract to something in the $6 mil range (which isn't out of the realm of possibility given his production) then it's more like 2 years 17 mil (or $8.5 a year)

For those interested in a chuckle - you should read the report about the Giambi press conference in Oakland

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/08/SPM81557IM.DTL

Well, we won't go into so-called bad years since you're willing to let one guy get away after a rough second half but are willing to give Harang a pass after a bad season in a much weaker league.

Sounds to me again like you're letting your personal feelings cloud your judgment.

Besides, they don't need to acquire someone with a multi-year attached to him. A one-year option is what they need.

Wait and see what Nady gets in arbitration before you attach a 2009 salary to him.

He may only get $4M or $4.5M.

If they aren't willing to spend $12M or $13M for one season of Pettitte - it would be rather retarded to go ahead and pay Harang over $20M for two years - especially when they don't need another starter signed to a multi-year deal.

I don't want Harang or any guys coming off injuries that lasted a whole season or more.

It would be time to package some of the young pitching and get a 200 inning type guy.

I would actually sign John Garland most FA's left out there.

If NY traded Swisher for Harang they would also be trading contracts of similar duration,so Harang would be gotten for roughly half his current contract.

Viper -

That's not entirely true. You're right, I don't like Andy and at this point I don't want him here. From a baseball standpoint I think Harang will give the team just as many innings and I think that his upside is far better than that of Andy's. Plus at 30 he's got less wear and tear on his arm than Andy does. And financially he's a better investment. His contract also gives the Yankees options for the year after if Joba doesn't hold up as a starter and they have to move him back to the pen or if Wang suffers another injury.

The point is the Yankees don't want to spend 10 mil or more on a guy this year if getting that lower average annual value means taking the extra year - then they'll do that and worry about next year's budget next year.

It's like the situation with Marte. The Yankees didn't want to spend $6 mil on him this year, but spreading more money over more years didn't bother them in the least.

Chip,

The situation is different with Marte. The guy is has a long track record and is one of the better lefties out of the pen in the game.

He's also not blocking any of the kids, which Harang would be if they land him because he has two years left on his deal.

Harang would cost them a bare minimum of 2 yrs/25.5M even if they don't pick up his 2011 option because he has a $2M buyout.

Sounds like a very nonsensical gamble.

And they'd have to give up Nady, too? No effing thanks.

All the reasons you gave for getting Harang is exactly why Pettitte is unquestionably the safer option and the one that makes the most sense.

They need someone willing to take a one-year deal and throw 200 IP.

Well Vipes, Harangs bad numbers were attributed to injury that killed his numbers in June July and August. In the beginning of the year and the end he was back to his normal self. Dont just look at the bottom line and say he had a bad year, you have to look at what caused it. When he was healthy in Sept, he was pitching well including a 6 hit complete game ( no walks ) shutout against Pujols, Glaus, Ludwick, Ankiel and the cards...hardly cupcakes. ( Big AL went 0-4 that game )

I dont want to take on a multi year deal for a SP either, but its a little different if we can get a horse like this. Andy at 12 or lower is my 1st choice, but Harang has to be #2, even at 2/24. What FA's can we get this year for that? Lowe? No Perez? No.....Ok so lets try and get Randy Wolf? You've been preaching about getting a workhorse SP that can throw 200 innings, Harang is more of a lock than Andy to accomplish that. I wouldnt mind getting Harang for an extra year, Phil and Ian arent going anywhere...they'll be 24 + 26 when Harang is done and probably even more ready to take on the Bronx. Another season at AAA could be huge for them long term.

If we cant get Andy, I would be for making a trade with Cinn..Harang for Nady + say a guy like Steven Jackson, Chase Wright or Dan Geise. I think Harang would make a huge impact in the middle of this rotation, more so than Andy over 1 year. Harang is a young, big workhorse that had to deal with "The Great American Launching Pad". His ERA would go up, but with his K potential, low walk rates, ability to pitch deep in games and hard sinker..he would be a very solid starter in the AL East. If you want some numbers, look at his numbers in interleague play ( small sample size listed above ). Good pitchers will be good anywhere, Aaron Harang is one of the most underrated SP's in the league. If he was on the Mets, he's be their #2, deemed the "Wang" of the Mets and be up for a huge payday. Being buried in Cinn has thrown a wet blanket over a guy who has been near the top of the majors in K's, GS and IP in the 3 years before last ( 2005, 2006, 2007 ). He's a horse any way you slice it.

Well Vipes, Harangs bad numbers were attributed to injury that killed his numbers in June July and August.

-----------------

And Pettitte's rough second half was attributed to his shoulder problem that plagued him in August and September.

Frankly, I wouldn't trade Nady straight up for Harang - much less Nady and other prospects.

I guess I'm not nearly as big a fan of Harang as you or Chip.

Smoltz is close to signing with the Sox. Good low risk/high reward signing & smart move from them. Is Cash hung over from the CC & Tex signings? If the Sox get Smoltz should the Yanks counter with Sheets? Maybe another veteran like Mulder? Doesn't look like Pettitte is coming back, so I think we would need one more solid veteran in the rotation to take the pressure off the kids. Thoughts?

Andy Pettitte has made roughly $109M in his career and all but about $31M came from the Yanks. Maybe I agree with Andy- the Yanks really haven't shown their appreciation. I mean, how is he expected to scrape by in this rough economy?

I wish I had his address, I'd mail him a fifty if it helps him feel better.

Viper -

We know injuries killed Harang's season. An MRI showed no damage to Andy.

Frankly, I find it a lot more plausible that Andy had a rough second half because he's old and not getting a chemical pick-me-up anymore.

And even if everything worked out with Joba and Hughes and the Yankees wanted to move Harang - you think that they might be able to find a trade partner willing to take on a 31 year old pitcher on a 1 year contract? I have a feeling that they'll be able to move him if they wanted to, especially given the lack of free agent pitchers on the market next season.

Nice article over at FOX SPORTS on TEX. Tells how his Dad
played High School ball with Bucky Dent, some quotes from his
Mom and Dad, and gives some insight into just what a straight-
arrow TEX is.
The contract that Smoltz is looking at from the R\Sox should
open Pettitte's eyes. Even though coming off surgery, only $5.5
MM guaranteed, with a max $10 MM including incentives. Pettitte
is letting the whole process get personal. He is appreciated, but
aint up there with Mickey and Joe D. Time for the Yanks to move
on. The current atmosphere surrounding this issue is only going
to get worse.

No need to retire #46 after all of this nonsense with Andy, 46 also worn by Donovan Osborne and Aaron Guiel who ran the bases with a smile according to John Sterling.

Viper, Harang has been a #1 in recent years, is young and would be a MONSTER in the 4 hole. The MLB fans and media give that guy no love because he's on a loser. With his skills set, he would be an 18 game winner on the Mets or Phils. I feel bad for guys like that. Ok, Im willing to wipe off August and Sept for Andy. Was Andy really that good before that?

3.93 ERA - 1.42 WHIP - .289 BAA
4.34 ERA - 1.45 WHIP - .300 BAA
3.76 ERA - 1.18 WHIP - .255 BAA
4.74 ERA - 1.34 WHIP - .281 BAA

June was the only month Andy had a winning record in 08 ( 4-0 ), April, May and July he was a .500 SP.

Lets take Harangs two best months and compare them to Andy's two best months in 08

Andy
36 IP - 20 K - 11 BB - 3.93 ERA - 1.42 WHIP - .289 BAA
40 IP - 28 K - 9 BB - 3.76 ERA - 1.18 WHIP - .255 BAA

Aaron
42 IP - 35 K - 9 BB - 2.98 ERA - 1.11 WHIP - .245 BAA
41 IP - 25 K - 9 BB - 3.07 ERA - 1.15 WHIP - .247 BAA

Going from the NL Central to AL East will increase those numbers, but this is a guy who threw 211, 234 and 232 IP the three years before last, thats near the top of the entire major league. Even after missing all of July and a part August the freakin guy still threw 184 IP...lol He goes deep into games to say the least.

07 - went into the 7th or longer 22 times! 8th or longer 11 times. Pitched 10 innings in one game

Even last year when he was banged up he went into the 7th 14 times, into the 8th 4 times and threw a complete game shutout on Sept 17th, after he came back from his injury.

In Andy's 08. where he threw more innings and more games than Harang, he went into the 7th only 11 times, 8th twice and no complete games.

The other key is that Harang looked healthy at the end of 08, Andy looked anything but. Harang threw a complete game shutout with no walks 2 weeks before the season ended and completed 7 innings or more in 5 of his last 7 games. Andy made it into the 7th once after August 20th.

OK, Bomber. In your outfield, do you have Damon or Swisher in center?

Chip,

Keep throwing the kitchen sink at Pettitte.

Chemical pick-me-ups?

Unless you have information none of us do, Pettitte hasn't tested positive for anything since his 2002 use in the Mitchell Report.

Seven years ago is a long time and he's had several good years since.

And we know the tougher policy works given the number of players who have tested positive in recent years, including Mitre and Romero as reported earlier this week for freaking over-the-counter stuff.

Wanna try again?

Just throw as much sh!t at the wall to see what sticks.

No way I trade the proven, money in the bank=NADY, for a guy
that gave up more hits than innings pitched=HARANG.
Absolutely no way.

Yanks HAVE to keep Nady. Will someone check his stats against
left-handed pitching. This is why he MUST be kept. Yanks have
been looking for righty bats that hit lefties forever and now that we
finally got one, they are thinking about giving him away. Give
the guy a chance.

The player that should be used as a trading chip is Swisher.
He is a great guy to have on your team, but the fact remains
he is not a clutch hitter, takes too many pitches and is an
average player. Maybe in the NL he will prove to be better
against their pitching but in the AL East, he will be an automatic
out.

Keep Nady, trade Swisher. Period.
And Harang is garbage. Rather take Arroyo, who is garbage too.

Even last year when he was banged up he went into the 7th 14 times, into the 8th 4 times and threw a complete game shutout on Sept 17th, after he came back from his injury.

In Andy's 08. where he threw more innings and more games than Harang, he went into the 7th only 11 times, 8th twice and no complete games.

---------------------

DRU,

You're never going to convince me that Harang is a better option for the Yanks than Pettitte so don't bother trying.

They need a one-year stop gap for that final slot. Harang doesn't cut it. I wouldn't trade Nady for Harang straight up.

Also, Harang struggled last season, injury or not, in the National League.

Pettitte did what he did in the AL East. The competition is much tougher and he still threw more innings and finished with a better ERA than Harang.

And as far as the injury to each player is concerned, the only thing that tells me is Harang suffered his injury earlier in the season whereas Pettitte drudged through it the final two months.

Boss ...

for this year alone I would have Swisher

next year

Swisher in LF

a much better Brett in CF

Nady in RF.

Now here is something intresting

You trade Swish or Nady you then would have to Sign a Griffey, now half of you is liek WHAT!!??

Yeah I said it..

Some would say what about posada .

what about him , unless he si tearing the heck out of the ball and cannot play D then he is the DH if he sucks all around then departure music shoudl be played.

No proven hitter should be moved to accomodate a scrub.

JIM A - CHECK YOUR EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is much easier, and the rewards are greater long term if the
Yanks just sign PEREZ. I don't know how much $$$ he wants,
but if necessary just backload his deal, and or defer $$$. The
Yanks are hell bent on having thier 09 payroll less than 08, so
they are going to have to be creative to get a decent SP for $10
MM. Signing PEREZ, would allow them to also keep NADY and
SWISHER.

Bomber,
I didn't get it....it might be too big- if you can, try breaking up any attachments into separate emails.

I don't think Griff can play CF in Yankee Stadium, he just doesn't have the wheels for it anymore and there are too many other options for corner spots, which include just standing pat with Swish and Nady.

Viper -

Technically Andy has NEVER tested positive for anything.

There is no test for HGH which is what Andy was accused of using in the Mitchell Report. Then again, Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi and Clemens never tested positive for anything either.

You've accused me for the last couple of months of letting my personal feelings cloud my judgement on how Andy would fit with this team. How are you not doing the same thing?

You've preached from Day 1 that the Yankees want to get younger and want to curb their payroll. If they deal Nady (even if we assume he gets a minimum increase to $4.5 mil - which I highly doubt) or Swisher the average annual value of Harang's contract is lower than what Andy wants and Harang is 6 years younger. You mention that Harang's early years should count against him - his last bad season was when he was 25 years old!

You bring up his contract, but your argument is flawed in that it presupposes that the young pitchers will be ready for prime time next year. It's also flawed in that even if the Yankees were on the frieght for the entire 23 mil over two years, that's still a lower average annual value than what Andy is willing to take.

In Harang the Yankees are paying less for a guy who will give them more than Andy.

Thanks, Bomber. I would absolutely do the same with Swisher in CF. I asked the same question yesterday, but no one gave any input.

I do find it funny how we're hearing so much about the Yanks trading away Swisher or Nady because of their plethora of outfielders right now.

But the best part is that if they trade Swisher - the only outfielder(s) that will be left on the roster at the end of 2009 are Melky and/or Gardner.

Nady, Damon, and Matsui are all in their contract years and will be off the roster.

Might be kind of tough trying to find three freaking outfielders next offseason if they trade Swisher now.

Proven money in the bank? Was Nady part of Lehman Brothers or Bear Stearns??? I see nothing in Nady's numbers that indicate a money in the bank player. Please list what you think is so "money in the bank" about Nady? Do you like his 4-1 K to BB ratio? Did you love his 23 walks to 101 K's in 125 games in 07? Did you like that last year was the 1st time in his career that he played more than 125 games or had more than 468 AB's? Are we even sure Nady can play 160 games in right field and log 550 AB's? He seemed to run out of gas in 08.

Sept
.223 Avg
,279 OBP
16 K
7 BB

We're gonna need our guys to be strong in Sept and Oct, can we be sure Nady can do that? He hasnt done that once over his career, he's been a part time player before last year.

What makes everyone think this guy ( who is now 30 ) is a force that should be compared to a RH Paul Oneil??? Or that he will be a more coveted FA OF than Jason Bay, Damon, Crawford, Ankiel, Vlad, Holliday, Matsui, Mags, Dye...hell I'd think he'd be on the Jason Werth, Brian Giles, Austin Kearns, Jason Michaels level unless he has an entire year like he did half a year in Pitt ( .330 avg )

As for the hits per inning with Harang, its what happens with sinker ball pitchers.

I guess you wouldnt trade Nady for this guy

07 - 199 hits in 199 innings
06 - 233 hits in 218 innings

You're right ST, Wang isnt worth Nady. The thing about Harang is he doesnt walk guys. If you want a better indication of how many baserunners a pitcher allows, look at WHIP ( walks and hits per IP )

Wang over the past 4 years
1.25
1.31
1.29
1.32

Harang over the past 4 years
1.27
1.27
1.14
1.38

To me, if there was any type of offer of Harang for Nady, I would RUN, not walk, to the table with fresh ink on a peacock feather. I dont even think that would get it done and am willing to throw in some low level prospect like Geise or Jackson, guys who will be gone from the 40 man roster in the next two years to make room for the lower level guys.

Viper...can you be so sure that Andy's injury is in the past??? Harang has proven that his is.

Chip -

Thats IF the Reds would trade Harang straight up for Nady. I think that is a big IF. They are probably going to want more.

Getting rid of Nady leaves us with another question mark to add on to the long list of question marks our offensive already has. But it may be worth it for Harang. Besides last year's arm issues. He has been NASTY.

Pettitte did what he did in the AL East. The competition is much tougher and he still threw more innings and finished with a better ERA than Harang

----------------------------

Viper -

you make it sound like Andy was some sort of hero last year. You're right, he gave the team 200 innings, but there is a difference between giving you 200 innings and giving you QUALITY innings. Sidney Ponson gave the Yankees 135 innings in 24 starts - you want him back?

Fact: Andy won 14 games last year
Fact: 10 of those wins came before JULY

Fact: Andy's ERA was 4.54
Fact: Much of that was compiled by posting an ERA of 4.00 in the first half when he threw the majority of his innings (his post All Star ERA was 5.35)

Fact: Andy's ERAs and BAA against the playoff teams were:

Bos: 7.04 .375
Tam: 4.13 .299
Chi: 6.00 .273
LAA: 7.94 .390

The only teams against which Andy's ERA was lower than 5 were: Seattle, San Diego, Tampa, Baltimore, Oakland, NYM, Cleveland and Cincy

DRU-
Giving up more hits than innings pitched tells the story. I like
what Nady has done numbers wise, and more importantly, I
like what I see when he plays. Again, no way I even consider
trading NADY for HARANG. NO WAY.

Chip,

I'm not getting attached to any player and emotion has nothing to do with it.

I didn't have any problems watching O'Neill, Brosius, Tino, or Bernie walk. It was their time to go and it was time to move on.

As much as I loved Mattingly, I realized it was time to move into a new direction.

So there's no emotion getting in the way here. He just happens to be the best option for next season.

Also, the "younger and more athletic" mantra applies to position players far more than starting pitchers.

The SP takes the mound once every five days. The position players have to grind for 162 games.

Big difference.

Besides, I only want Pettitte for one season and has a long track record of durability.

And they do need to curb their payroll, but I'm not going to quibble over a few million after they've spent over $60M for 2009 already.

Might be kind of tough trying to find three freaking outfielders next offseason if they trade Swisher now.

------------------------

Which is why the original conversation was about trading Nady. The point is either Nady or Swisher will likely be traded before the season starts.

McCarthy -

You're right, we're all putting the cart before the horse - all we know for certain is that Cashman and Jockety are talking about Nady and Swisher - we don't know anything more than that.

Chip - I like this two pronged attack! Look what happens when we combine our forces. You can be the Americans and Ill be the Russians...lets not stop until we get to Berlin!! ( Viper )

lol

You dont have to agree Viper, the debate is more fun than who's right and who's wrong. Chip does have a point though, you were blasting him for making this personal, with all these numbers stacked against Andy..maybe you're doing the same??? Nah, cant be......right?

; )

love ya Viper!

Screw Andy. He claimed he was "dying" to play for the Yanks. The Yanks wanted and offered him a VERY fair 1 year contract like he asked. 10million is more than fair compared to what other pitchers are getting this off season and what he brought to the table last season. Time for the Yanks to move on without him.

Moving on without him can be as simple as not making any more moves this off season and going with the young guys in the #4 and #5 hole. I am perfectly fine with holding on to your OF's and young pitching and seeing how the season plays out. If we need to make a move during the season then we have the chips to do so.

Moving on can also entail trading Nady and possibly some young talent for a very solid pitcher in Harang. But what is there to say that deal can't be made during the season after we have a better idea as to what our team looks like???

ST - different folks different strokes I guess, thanks for joining in on the fun!

Chip,

We already know he had a rough second half and that was primarily because of his bum shoulder.

But thanks for telling me that yet again.

He still managed to throw 200 IP and did it against much tougher competition.

We can debate this nonstop for the next two months but we're never going to persuade the other.

Viper -

Well then you and I are quibbling about different things.

You don't mind kicking in the extra bucks if it's a 1 year deal and gets you 200 innings. I don't mind kicking in the extra year if the 200 innings have a chance to be of a better quality.

I think the odds of Harang and Andy giving the Yankees 200 innings are about even.

I think a greater percentage of Harang's 200 innings will be quality ones than the one's Andy would give the team. And for that I'm willing to see the team kick in the extra year.

I do find it funny how we're hearing so much about the Yanks trading away Swisher or Nady because of their plethora of outfielders right now.

But the best part is that if they trade Swisher - the only outfielder(s) that will be left on the roster at the end of 2009 are Melky and/or Gardner.

Nady, Damon, and Matsui are all in their contract years and will be off the roster.

Might be kind of tough trying to find three freaking outfielders next offseason if they trade Swisher now.
=====================================================

Vipes I'm with you 100%

Dru ....

GVE ME ANYBODY ON THE YANKEE OF ROSTER THAT PRODUCED LIKE NADY WITHIN THE LAST TWO YEARS. I DON'T SEE ON BASE MACHINES AFTER NUMBER 5 IN TH E LINEUP. AND REMEMBER HE PLAYED FOR SCRUB TEAMS IN SCRUB DIVISIONS IN THE NATIONAL LEAGUE HE CAME HERE AND SAVED A FEW GAMES FOR US BECAUSE OUR GET IT DONE GUYS WAS NOT GETTING IT DONE.

YOU SAID PAUL ONEIL WAS BETTER THAN NADY FROM THE START ??

REALLY ??

Paul was averae to below average with the reds he had power numbers but awful numbers against lefties once he was placed in a line up with get on base players his numbers sky rocketed and his numbers against lefties increased due to him being supported by some good right handed bats in the lineup.

Nady would not see that advantage so much due to his spot in the lineup. however Nady sandwiched between a healthy Posada or Matusi/swisher would see a overnight upside.

while last year he batted 268 behind a giambi or arod and followed by a slumping robbie and still he produced a 268 avg and 12 bombs.
Paulie was a 20 -25 hr guy those same number from nady would be acceptable especially from a RH bat ( I don't count SH in this ratio)

Viper -

what evidence do you have that there was anything wrong with his shoulder? That he took an MRI?

The MRI he had of his shoulder showed as much wrong with it as the MRI the Red Sox took of Manny's leg.

Sep. 27, 2008 - 2:13 a.m. ET

Andy Pettitte said an MRI on his shoulder revealed only an inflamed rotator cuff.

"I tried to pitch through it and it got worse," he said. "But the doc said it would clear up once I rested." Source: The Journal News

There is not a pitcher in baseball who doesn't have an inflamed rotator cuff.

Andy's old, he wore down during the second half of the season. So by all means bring him back because as we all KNOW, the older you are the greater your endurance level.

I'am down with keeping Nady and Swisher. No reason we can't go into 2009 with an extra proven outfielder.

Viper your right. Swisher has value to us beyond 2009. He very well could be our LF. Jackson in CF and Melky in RF.

I would be surprised if the Yanks spent a ton of money signing Holliday next season after investing over 400 million this season.

Hey Chip,

Didn't I already say about 700 times that Pettitte could have rested a couple of starts and he would have been okay?

But he didn't and it never healed. He took one for the team because Wang and Joba went down and kept pitching with it.

If Harang and Pettite is equal then it is not worth trading Nady for, Cin is probally saying we can sign Pettite to a one year or two deal and still have a productive OF member for everyday basis who can put runs on the board something we lacked.

Cin wants revenge for being Fooled on the On'eil deal and is hoping to catch the yankees sleeping on this one.

DRU

I meant all Outfield players on the Yankee Roster.

Basically what I'm saying is you would have a gigantic hole in the OF once Damon / Matsui leaves and you trade a Nady and is left with the unprovens. nxt year it would be harder to replace three slots in the OF , Holiday and Bay would be longshots to be signed together , not saying it cannot be done but hey

Dru the team should learn from it's past mistake and not rely on these unprovens to be given automatic roster spos. Swish has alot to proove , melky is going to have ot have an incredible spring and brett need to know how to hit, Before that unless You can cut a deal to one particular team involving Nady and others I would not trade him at all. whats your bench if you trade him?

what your option if Matsui can't hold up?

Exactly

Whats to stop Nady from moving on after this year too even if he doesn't get traded?

Right now Swisher, Gardner and Melky are the only outfielders signed beyond this year.

BB, looking again at their numbers before 30, they werent that far off in BA and games played, Paulie walked more and struck out less, but the rest was pretty much the same. Oneil's 1st year over .300 was at age 30. Ok, Id buy that Nady has a chance to be a late bloomer and may just turn into Paulie by his mid 30's. You could say the same thing about Swisher though who walks more and has more power than the both of these guys. Maybe he finds his stroke later in his career as well. The better part about Swisher is we have him locked up for longer at a great price. I still think if we dont sign Andy, the difference in wins that Harang would bring over any other option would be greater than the difference between having Swisher over Nady in RF...if there was any.

Like I said before, my 1st choice is Andy in the 4 hole for 1 @ 12 or less, plus having Nady and Swisher for the OF and bench. Now if we cannot get Andy, I am for going after Harang, plus sticking Swisher in RF while signing some bench help.

Viper -

Yeah, you've said that before and I don't buy it. Every pitcher has an inflamed something or other - it's the result of doing something over and over again that the body was not designed to do.

Frankly, given his results, Pettitte should have sat down. He didn't "take one for the team." CC Sabathia took one for the team going out there on 3 days rest time after time and pitching well to get his team into the playoffs. Andy went out there and gave us awful performance after awful performance down the stretch. What's so heroic about that?

Bomber,

You had a really good point and then a really bad one.

I agree on this one:

If Harang and Pettite is equal then it is not worth trading Nady for,

But then you squatted and dropped some poo on this one:

Cin wants revenge for being Fooled on the On'eil deal and is hoping to catch the yankees sleeping on this one.

C'mon, dude. That's crazy.

Ownership and management isn't even the same and I also don't think a bad trade on their part 15 years ago is going to be the driving force for revenge now.

But that was a funny thought, anyway. I almost sprayed pop through my nose when I read it.

Again from the way half of you sound on here if Paul O and his CIn stats was avail today you all would decline

here is his 1992 stats with Cin notice the Simularity or even worse stats than Nady
and they was the same age upon coming to the Yankees.

Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP1992 29 CIN NL 148 496 59 122 19 1 14 66 6 3 77 85 .246 .346 .373 102 185 3 6 15 2 10

BB - Ill turn your question around on you, if we dont sign Andy and dont make a trade for Harang. What would you do to start the year? What if AJ goes down? What is Joba cant hold up?

Exactly

That was a joke Viper ...

haha

Ah, Chip.

Maybe we should just put on the gloves and battle this one out in the Octagon. Ha ha

Ah, Chip.

Maybe we should just put on the gloves and battle this one out in the Octagon. Ha ha

Ill admit, Im surprised by how bad Oneils numbers were in Cinncy, hitting in the 240's and 250's, but even if Nady has a solid year...what makes you think we can keep him as long as Oneil? Boras is his agent so you know he's going to hit the open market. There is no guarantee he stays. Swisher will be here for multiple years so I would like to give him a shot in RF and see what we really have. Nady is just as much a ? as Swisher is, just in different ways. This would all mean nothing if Andy signs on.

Dru.

That is why you need your bats even more!
Exactly

that was the risk coming into this slot dealing with Pettite , they should have made an additional signing like Boston did, they should have even talked to Smotlz , but again it shows great management but lacking of baseball sense in part of the team. Honestly I think Hughes wil lbe fine in the Nmber 4 or 5 spot as well as Joba but yes had they made another signing of a pitcher a solid one at that then this would have been a good argument to have , but replacing a disaster with a potential another one is not good money. whynot offer pedro and Mnor league deal while were at it to be a number 4 starter in the AL?

Omar Minaya for one is licking his chops hoping this deal (nady is done ) hoping he goes on the market next season in fact alot of GM's is hoping the same. Teams love this guy and expressed resent in even trading him but they figured at those times they could get quick fixes for him only to see to fixes fail. while he was the cheap option all along.

he is not a option here, he is NEEDED in a very fragile OF

Dru ...

The fact is NADY did it for the most part in a depleted Yankee lineup even batting behind Arod two

Viper -

You're on..my friend. This is like the Ted Lilly wars.

Seriously - everyone (including me) is bent out of shape one way or another about a trade that hasn't happened and we don't have any reason to believe is going to happen.

BB?? What the hell are you talking about?? You're blasting MGMT for not gettin Smoltz or having an Andy backup plan after getting CC, AJ and Tex? Come on now, nothing bad can be said about the FO this winter, they've far exceeded anything we should have expected. If no other moves are made, they get an A+ for this offseason. Maybe the Yanks do have a backup plan, we dont know, there's still 36 days still P's & C's.

I think Hughes and Joba will be fine too, but you're pointing to the risks of our OF ( Damon + Matsui ), but you make no mention of Joba's innings limit, the fact that Hughes has not stayed healthy over one MLB year, Wang is coming off a major injury, AJ has been anything but durable and CC has thrown the most innings of any SP over the past two years. Dont just give one side and say that the OF healthy is this teams achilles heel, it always the rotation. Having depth in it is paramount. The health in our OF ( either of the kids in CF, Damon in LF and Swisher is RF is much worse because Nady is not in RF?? ) What kinds of sense does that make? Swisher has been more durable than Nady the past three years...he has more AB's and is played in more games so that point of view of him being more durable is fabricated.

Nady is not so much better at the plate than Swisher that he is going to make or break our season. Even though Swisher batted .219, his .332 OBP was BETTER than Nady's .320 when he joined the Yanks. I think there is a better chance of Swishers OBP being higher than Nady's next year and beyond.

As far as Omar, he's gonna get his chance with Nady if we trade him or not, this is his last year and he has Boras as his client.

I cant find anything I agree with from your post at 12:05.

Actually, Nady didn't bat behind A-Rod. He batted mostly behind Giambi.

Girardi loves that lefty-righty thing to a fault at times and I was pulling my hair out for a good month because he refused to move Giambi from the #5 slot and left Nady in the #6 slot even though he was having such a great season.

Nady hit over .300 w/ RISP wheras Giambi was much closer to .200 and became one of the biggest rally killers on the team.

Chip ..

I running up on BC today and be sure to let him know How i feel about this mess in fact if I have my lap op I'm showing him this blog (it's not like I never showed him before)

Jim A did you get your E-mail

and Chip I don't have yours anymore

I would ref that fight guys

JESUS PEOPLE!!

Pettitte vs. Harang??

Are you all high?

Harang until last year was a top 5 pitcher in the NL and arguably top 10 in all of baseball strikes out 200 per a season and would be borderline unfair if he were to help comprise our 09 rotation.

HARANG IS A STUD!!!

Viper I'm very dissapointed in you on this.

JESUS PEOPLE!!

Pettitte vs. Harang??

Are you all high?

Harang until last year was a top 5 pitcher in the NL and arguably top 10 in all of baseball strikes out 200 per a season and would be borderline unfair if he were to help comprise our 09 rotation.

HARANG IS A STUD!!!

Viper I'm very dissapointed in you on this.

JESUS PEOPLE!!

Pettitte vs. Harang??

Are you all high?

Harang until last year was a top 5 pitcher in the NL and arguably top 10 in all of baseball strikes out 200 per a season and would be borderline unfair if he were to help comprise our 09 rotation.

HARANG IS A STUD!!!

Viper I'm very dissapointed in you on this.

Bomber,

Actually, Nady didn't bat behind A-Rod. He batted mostly behind Giambi in the #6 slot.

Girardi loves that lefty-righty thing to a fault at times and I was pulling my hair out for a good month because he refused to move Giambi from the #5 slot and left Nady in the #6 slot even though he was having such a great season.

Nady hit over .300 w/ RISP wheras Giambi was much closer to .200 and became one of the biggest rally killers on the team.

I wasnt here for the Lilly wars, but I would have been on the side to sign him. Ive always like Teddy.

YEAH PTRS---A POST SO GOOD YOU DID IT THRICE!!

Bomber -

I can't give out my email on a public site anymore - sorry brotha.

When you see Cash - suggest to him that a small investment in either Mark Kotsay or Jimmy Edmonds to play CF wouldn't be a bad idea.

Guys - there's also something to be said for the possibility, however remote, that the Yankees could trade Nady for Harang and then sign Abreu for a 1 or 2 year deal at low money

Thank you Viper... You made our team (wow amazing ) stronger with that proof. Nady and his numbers should have batted no lower than 5th an STILL he hit 268 - 12 hr in 228 at bats move him up and those numbers climb!

No oe is blaming FO Dru , when you said what about? I responded by saying they thought about the what abouts and if they did'nt instead of waiting on Andy they should have at least engaged in other plans, Drew he could stay if the extension was done now , However BC does not do that and while it paid off dealing with older players here is when it mite not . If you give Nady a 5-6 mil extension even boras jumps on it. Just becasue.
And that still will be more than double your paying for the avail options next season.

Sorry about the triple

DRU,

I think you're being a little rough on Nady - although I don't think he's a great player that should be locked up long term either.

Nady's career averages are pretty good for a guy who will only make $4M - 5M next year:

.280 / .335 / .458 21 HR, 78 RBI

Nothing wrong with those numbers at all. That's bargain shopping if he does it again in a contract year.

I've said it before, but I wouldn't trade either Swisher or Nady.

They are both productive guys who they might need to play everyday if something happens to Damon or Matsui - not a shot in the dark by any means given their age and health issues.

They will have to pay more than double for the next options next season. is what i meant to say

So the Sox might be signing Smoltz AND Baldelli. Both would be great pickups. Smoltz at 5.5 mil with escalators up to ten, the only downside is that he won't be available till June.

Baldelli could be an all star in this league if he stayed healthy, but he would be a perfect 4th outfielder unless he proves his injury woes are behind him.

Can we give Ben Sheets the same type of contract Smoltz is getting but for 2 years?

Sheets: Figure 25 Starts, 3.50 ERA, 125Ks, 1.1 WHIP.

Burnett: Figure 25 Starts, 3.80 ERA, 195Ks, 1.25 WHIP. +
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combine them: 50 Starts, 3.65 ERA, 330Ks, 1.2 WHIP.

That's a solid starter and a half between the two of them, you figure you'll get 25-30 wins, 7 innings a start and guys who can both be #2's but are both hurt so much that they'll have numbers like 2 solid #3's with Wang hopefully being out steady horse at 2.

The only problem is we already overpaid for AJ, so we have to get a good deal with escalators for Sheets.

Also, with the expectation that they will be injured Hughes/Aceves can get spot starts to see what they're made of.

Chip .. I wil l search and see if I still have it.

Great Point Viper I think we gonna Nuke the Competion my friend. haha

6-17 is not a stud , Harang numbers

2008 30 CIN NL 6 17 30 29 1 1 0 0 184.3 205 104 98 35 50 153 2 2 793 5 0 4.78 4.51 94 1.383

At this point I woud lok into signing SHEETS for a good price to be a number 4 . But GIVE CREDIT (haha DRU) to the FO they did not want to flood the rotation with Health risks

Bomber he had ONE BAD YEAR EVER HEAR OF BUYING LOW!!!

Maybe he was tired of pitching for a team only a couple of wins better than the Padres??

Harang improved steadily every year until last season. He was on a steep ladder upwards and then stumbled and fell down a buncha steps. The only question now is... will he get back on track?

Look at 06 and 07

2006 16 11 3.76 36 35 6 2 0 0 234.1 242 109 98 28 8 56 216

2007 16 6 3.73 34 34 2 1 0 0 231.2 213 100 96 28 8 52 218

Bomber while you're at it see if you can possibly work your mojo on Cash to investigate a number 5 hitter with a bit more dreadlocks than Matsui hah!!

BB - we'll just have to agree to disagree, isnt it fun to debate????

As far as Nady, yeah Im being pretty hard on him. If he stays with the team, Ill be one of his biggest supporters because nothing would please me more if he played 160 games, logged 550 AB's, hit .300, hit 25 HR and had an OBP north of 350. (these are things hes never done over an entire year by the way ).

What Im getting at though is if the Andy deal doesnt go through, what are our options? If one of those options ( could be complete BS ) is a Nady for Harang, Id do it. Not because I think Nady is garbage, but I think Harang is one of the 20-25 best SPs' in the league. Nady is not even in the top 50 OF's, plus I think Nady and Swisher are on the same level of production. Nady will give you more BA, Swish more OBP with more power as he's already shown in his career. So trading a guy we have under contract for just one year, who we already have a replacement for in our lineup, for two reasonable years of a SP who could be our #2/#3 logging 400+ quality innings in the process, yeah its pretty much a no brainer to me.

Who's going to be gone next year =
Andy - 36 ( if we're lucky )
Nady - 30

Who's going to be here this year and next =
Harang - 30 ( if we're very lucky )
Swisher - 28

Forget having the lineup continuity, something that is very underrated. Just look at those two players, which two do you prefer in your starting lineup? It would be the same cost in 09?

To me again, its such a no brainer you might as well call me Hunk ( the scarecrow from the wizard of oz )

OK, I have to go now guys and gals, talk to youzzz later.

I don't get all the talk about Sheets.

His ability on the mound has never been questioned. But the guy is a walking Emergency Room.

With his ability, why do you think he doesn't have any offers in such a pitching-starved game?

Because his medicals are TERRIBLE. Teams are running away screaming after reading them.

So why should the Yanks sign such a major injury risk?

It doesn't make any sense. There's a very good reason why he hasn't landed a job yet.

And mybe Nady was tired of playing for losers and is ready to shine. Again we NEED nady more than we need Harang .If he was walkin long the Deggan expressway then maybe but to trade a valuable asset nope. nada.

Theo is going to do something huge. Don't be fooled by this possum act with Baldelli and Smoltz (which are great upside decisions BTW)

I have a sneaking suspicion that we may see Adrian Gonzalez moving to Massachussets.

If not A-GON someone of his caliber will be joining the their line up before spring training.

I'll bet you all a set of steak knives on this.

But that's what I'm saying Viper. Low guaranteed money, serious inning incentives. Low risk, high reward. 2 Years, 8-10 Mill guaranteed, up to 20-22 Mil Total in incentives. Like Smoltz, time 2. why not?

Swisher has little value and is essentially a player without a position and I'm truly amazed how most folks on this blog keep extolling his virtues as a player when in fact he is mediocre at best.A good defensive 1B who has never been good in the clutch.So what.

He was traded for only as insurance,the Yankee brass were certainly not betting on him over the long term.Now with Tex in tow he is extremely expendable.

Some of you think because a player dons the pinstripes that he miraculously becomes a better ballplayer or is a late"bloomer".???

Nady and Swisher are not in the same league as O'Neill and never will be.Each has been traded 3 times and will likely be traded again although my intuition tells me it will be Swisher sometime soon.

I couldnt go yet while BB is spreading fertilizer @ 12:44.

Come on man, did you join the party late? Go check my posts at 10:11 and 10:39 today, Harang is one of the best, most durable SP's in the league. Top 20 easily before his injury last year...

a quick clip from those two posts......
=============
Well Vipes, Harangs bad numbers were attributed to injury that killed his numbers in June July and August. In the beginning of the year and the end he was back to his normal self. Dont just look at the bottom line and say he had a bad year, you have to look at what caused it. When he was healthy in Sept, he was pitching well including a 6 hit complete game ( no walks ) shutout against Pujols, Glaus, Ludwick, Ankiel and the cards...hardly cupcakes. ( Big AL went 0-4 that game )
=============

Hey Bomber, I love ya to pieces as you get some nice 1st handed insight with the team...but stick to what you know, the Yankees and getting Cashman a coffee and danish

kisses

Oh, man. DRU working the body again.

So what kind of danish and flavor espresso does Cashman like?

I have to admit, that one made me chuckle.

ruse -

Like I have stated. Matsui, Damon and Nady are not signed past 2009.

Swisher, Gardner and Melky are. Swisher gives the Yanks another option beyond this season. It allows them to go out and sign one solid OF next off season instead of having to sign two.

Holliday and Bay are long shots because of the contracts they are going to be pursuing. Beyond those two....there really isn't anyone that stands out to me. We better hope this Austin Jackson character learns the game of baseball more quickly.

McCarthy

LOL

Well said!!

I love how everybody keeps saying that Austin Jackson will be ready by....September or 2010 or midseason blah blah blah.

These same people when asked to defend his lukewarm resume in the minors feed us the funniest line regarding prospects this side of Kei Igawa's fingers being too small..

"He's a basketball player who never played baseball till he signed with the Yanks....It takes a while to learn how to be a professional baseball player when you wait till you're 19yrs old to take up the sport"

HAHHAHAHA

PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME THAT YOU HEAR THINGS LIKE THIS WHEN DISCUSSING PROSPECTS FROM ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION.

Only in New York...

Dru ..

that was a good one ,

But while you sit in Mommy Attic typing in you sponge bob briefs your track record was not too good you bet the farm in regards to Hughes and Kennedy last season with that I guess you need a stimulus package for the lost farm.

Haha I like you too bro.

Hey maybe we can sign Kevin Durant maybe he'd like to learn how to play centerfield for the New YOrk Yankees?

McCarthy

You make FA sound like the end of the world .Swisher long term is meaningless because of his current track record .If NY holds onto a productive Nady thru 09 I see absolutely no reason against resigning him to a 4 yr deal.If he stinks up the place then let him walk.Carl Crawford has a club option next yr and my guess is he'll be a FA and of course there is Holliday.

Ruse

Nady is a Boras client he's gonna want 18 million for 6 yrs.

Cashman is pretty shrewd. His best trade has been getting NADY
and he's not gonna throw that trophy away on a guy\HARANG
that staggered thru last season. I see Cashman trading\dumping
Swisher and his salary, because that's the way HAL wants it.
Cashman will also sign a free agent SP. Either PEREZ, or go
the cheap route and sign Chris Capuano or Chuck James. This
allows Cashman to keep Nady and fill the 5th SP slot. I don't
see the Yanks spending all this dough on CC\AJ\TEX, and
depending on young, brittle, SP's in the 4 and 5 slots of the
rotation. They learned last season that just doesn't work.

ruse -

Its obviously not the end of the world but it is a lot easier to go out and sign 1 free agent outfielder than it is to go out and sign 2. So I would absolutely disagree with you when you say "Swisher long term is meaningless".

Swisher was not "meaningless" last year with the white sox. He still hit 24 home runs and 69 RBI's with the white sox. He has never hit well for average. I expect his OBP to go back up into the high .300's if he is hitting in the Yankee lineup.

The name of the game is keeping your options open. Swisher is a solid option moving beyond 2009.

McCarthy

Swisher hits a career .221 w/Risp .So he hit 24 HR .Zero HRs came in the clutch..186 w/2 outs RISP in 08.

TRADE HIM !!!

ruse -

Your missing a major point. The Yankees as well as all of us are talking about trading Nady because there really isn't a trade market for Swisher. Nady has a much smaller contract and is coming off his best season of his career.

Swisher is coming off his worst season and still has multiple years on his contract worth a good amount of money. Not to mention the market for corner outfielders is very very low.

Swisher's Contract:
09:$5.3M
10:$6.75M
11:$9M,
12:$10.25M club option ($1M buyout)

No one is going to give up much for Swisher. So it makes no sense to trade Swisher for garbage when we can probably get a lot more for Nady.

Way to much hype on Nady. He is coming off a career year. I am not saying he is a bad player, but very rarely does someone repeat career year numbers two years in a row at the age of 30.

To continue our theme from yesterday My predictions for 09...

1. Manny is a Met in a fly by night surprise ala Texiera

(in fact Espn will report that he's signed with the Dodgers only to come back retract the story 2 hours later when John Heyman in typical Heyman fashion shows up saying that he's heard that Mets owners finally gave Omar the go ahead.) Funny as that is ESPN will then go live with what they call "BUSTER OLNEY'S EXCLUSIVE REPORT"

2. Bucholz/Masterson/Elsbury/Lars Anderson will join whatever Giles brother still exists on the Padres in the cake taker of all 09....Jake Peavy and Adrian Gonzalez will have a joint press conference with fireworks and a Neil Diamond concert while Theo introduces the brand new additions to "THE NATION"

Ruse,
You really don't think the Rays are going to exercise that team option and keep him for another year at the cheap? Crawfor will not be available next off season.

That said, we talk about Harang's year as a possible anomaly - and he may not be as bad as his record showed last year. Why can't we look at Swisher the same way? Sure, he's always struck out a lot, but he's also had a decent on base pctge, and has some decent power. So even if he hits .260ish with 25 HRs, no reason that wouldn't be good enough production as the starting ceterfielder for the year. Right? We don't need all stars at every position, and he seems like that gritty, hard wroking type that will succeed and more importantly, help the team succeed.

McCarthy's right -

The Yankees got Swisher for Wilson Betemit and a AA pitcher who will, at most, turn into a poor man's Jeff Karstens. What makes you think they'll be able to get something more valuable than that back for him?

Xavier Nady can bring back a useful player - either in CF or the rotation. So you trade him and hope that Swisher rebounds. If he doesn't, you look and see who is shopping OF during the season: Jermaine Dye, Magglio Ordonez, Jayson Werth - they could all be available before July 31.

Ruse,
I'd consider Swisher pretty much impossible to trade unless he is packaged with prospects and dollars to help pay his contract. Like you said, the man is not very good. Sure, he's versatile with the glove but it's not like he's a gold glover anywhere- he's played all of 50 games at first base and he is not a very good OF.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe it is easier to get OF's than it is pitching. If the Yanks have needs in the OF and most of the pitching staff is locked in place, than they can use some of the young arms to bring an OF. Look at the free agents out there right now, none of them are finding good deals because there are so many of them- yet the pitchers are not having such a hard time.

If I was a GM, I'd be pretty happy if the weak spot on my team was the OF and I had young pitching to spare- you can get pretty darn creative in the trade market.

This is why I thought bringing back Pettitte for one year was so important. Sign him, throw him in the rotation to keep a place warm for Hughes to learn that freakin' third pitch we've been hearing about (right Phucker?) and next year you look at OF's.
I am not entirely convinced that Johnny Damon is done in NY after this season- he could pull a Pettitte and come back on one year deals as long as he is healthy and productive.

I agree.

If we can still get Pettitte, that is our best option. Even though I really feel sort of betrayed by him this off season. But he won't require us to give up anyone.

The more I think about it, the less I like trading anyone. But if the Yanks can get Harang for Nady and maybe a Dan Giese, I would do it. I believe Harang will bounce back from his injury last year just fine. He would be the best #4 starter in the game. Having Joba and Hughes in the #5 spot would be perfect.

No, Andy is not the best option. Andy is the best Free Agent option but that's more an indictment on the players on the market than support for Andy.

I'm sorry - I get that you can count on him to take a 1 year deal and pitch 200 innings but if I'm going to hand the ball every fifth day to a guy and hope that he doesn't throw up garbage I would rather have that person be 22 years old than 37.

And what's more, if Andy does stink, if he's as bad all season as he was in the second half last year you run into this issue: Who is going to tell Andy that they're benching him to give a kid a shot? Girardi? Yeah right. Girardi left Andy on the mound longer than he should have in lots of games because he trusted Andy to sort it out even when it was evident that Pettitte had nothing.

I said this when the Yankees hired Joe, I thought his relationship from being a teammate to so many of the guys on the roster is that it made it near impossible for him to treat them objectively.

Beckett/Lester/Matsuisaka/Smoltz/Penny VS Sabathia/Wang/Burnett/Joba/Hughes

= ADVANTAGE REDSOX!!! HAHAHAHAHH!

Now if they Sox were also to land McLouth/Doumit for Elsbury/Bucholz/Anderson you guys would be REALLY SCREWED!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Of course, if you signed another starter and game to grips with the fact that Hughes will never be good.....it could be advantage Yankees.

Guys, guys (and Diane and ST too), stop the gun fighting at OK Corral!

Boras is at the bottom of all this. You know what this is leading to, don't you? Boras has convinced the Yankees and the Reds that a deal of Nady (plus MiL pitcher) for Harang gets them both what they want.

Then, he turns around on Cash & Hal and says, but do you really have full faith and confidence in that lineup without Nady’s RH bat?!

OK, well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do for you, I just happen to have this HOF RH hitter sitting in the warehouse and I can sell him to you at a bargain rate of 25 Mil per year for three years. He can play LF for you while Swisher plays right. And, not only that, but with my merchandise in the lineup, you can play Gardner (or Melky) in CF for their excellent defense and not even worry about how well they hit!

But, says, Cash, the budget?!

Since when do the Yankees worry about a budget? You guys worried about a budget before you got Teix but went out and got him anyway. Next year you’ve got all that dough coming off the books, you can put Jackson in CF if he’s ready and if not, you don’t have to worry anyway about the disappearing OF for at least three years?

Do we have a deal?

He whips out the Lineup:

Damon
Jeter
Teix
Arod
Manny
Posada
Matsui
Swisher
Cano
Gardner

Cash crumbles.

Alright folks, that’s just to whip things up. Enjoy the rest of your day slinging bullets!

Well Chip, its a matter of opinion as to what the overall best option is.

I really don't see the Yanks trading Nady for a better option. All this talk about Harang was generated from this blog and there is no concrete evidence to even suggest the Reds would consider moving one of their best pitchers for 1 year of Nady. If there was then I would agree that would be a better option. I still believe it will take a lot more to land Harang. That "a lot" more makes Pettitte a better option in my eyes.

What would you consider the best overall option then?

If you guys are that hot on HARANG, why not trade SWISHER
and KENNEDY for him? Maybe we could get them to throw in
DICKERSON, or expand the deal if necessary to get him
included.

McCarthy

CHips best overall option just signed with Boston.

Phucker

You said it my friend.

Incidentally - the Yankees are in position to take some serious advantage of the compensation rules in Free Agency. No one is touching Juan Cruz (who is a heck of a reliever and would be a fantastic set up man for Rivera) because it would cost the team that signs him a first round pick. Well if the Yankees sign him they only have to give up a 4th round pick. Same thing with Orlando Hudson. If the Yankees really do want to take a look at him as a CF and he's up for it - the compensation Arizona would get would at best be a 4th round pick.

That's what's slowing down the market for a lot of these guys - it's not the economy - it's that no one wants to give up a first round draft pick for Varitek or Hudson or Orlando Cabrera.

Chip,

Keep those rants coming. Now Pettitte might be so bad next year that he'll have to be benched - but Girardi won't do it because they were teammates.

Well, at least that's somewhat creative if not absurd to the core.

Why don't you just send him some nasty hate mail and get those frustrations out?

Viper -

It happened to Mussina in 07 right?

I would rather save the money on stamps - just let him sit in his home in Texas (which the Yankees bought him) and keep thinking that he's still worth $16 mil a year while trying to convince his sycophants that the Yankees are disrespecting him.

He's not only not a good/reliable pitcher anymore; but he personally sickens me. What's wrong with expressing that?

CHIP-
We'll know whether it's the economy or draft picks, when we
see how much $$$$ these late signers get. I' m guessing
economy, making it even tougher to deal SWISHER.

That's fine. But you're raging animosity towards him gets in the way of sane discussion.

And if you want to throw Moose into this conversation, he came back after a disappointing season and was outstanding - winning 20 games with a 3.37 ERA.

Pettitte has a long track record of success. Coming back with a chip on his shoulder may not be such a bad thing.

It worked for #35 when he knew it would be his last season.

I'm just saying - you're the one who decided to include Moose in this discussion.

DRU,
i dont get you. When i asked about getting a guy like Oliver, you shot it down claiming that it would lock up a spot. Now, you want a guy who is LESS productive in the NL (as far as ERA, wins) and you wanna trade our only sure OF this season. (Yes im saying Damon is not a sure thing due to injury). You think Swish is a STARTER in the OUTFIELD? No, he is a great guy to play every few days but not a starter. I cant believe you guys wanna trade him. We gave up alot of good prospects to get him and should be given an essential tryout year. If he exceeds, he is inked to a 3 or 4 year deal not even for big money. But if he fails, we just dont sign him. Alot better to me than locking up a spot in the rotation for a guy who seems ready either this year or next to step up, AND trade away an OF.

Pettitte is fully capable of coming back in 2009 and being a very valuable 4th starter in the Yankee rotation.

Last year a lot of strain was put on him to be the "Ace" after Wang went down. Now we would only be asking him to stay healthy, and give us some solid starts from the 4 spot.

I feel hurt by the fact Pettitte went back on his words about money not being an issue and that he really wants to pitch for the Yanks. But I am over that and everyone in the Bronx will be over it if he finally realizes the Astro's can not offer him the same amount of money or opportunities.

**Continued**

This move would both make us wait for Hughes even longer AND it would slow down both our farm system and the outfield situation. Because there is no way that we will only have to give up Nady. It is sure to be Nady and a few pitchers, or Nady and a catcher or something of the sort. And we cannot go into the season with our outfield any weaker than it is now. If we trade Nady, it almost forces us to go out and sign someone and I dont wanna do that, unless its Manny, which it wont be.

Whoops, Boras drew that one up wrong (ten guys would be unfair, especially with both Damon and Gardner playing CF at the same time. Just drop Gardner from the bottom of that lineup.) Damon goes back to CF. Gardner sits the bench for late inning defensive purposes. Boras tells Cash that CF defence isn’t going to be a problem with Manny producing all those RBIs. Well, something like that.

Viper -

It's not the chip on his shoulder I worry about - it's the miles on it.

Think about it rationally - Andy's been a workhorse for 12 years - he's had multiple arm problems over that time period. And last year his arm could not hold up to the rigors of a full season.

Is there any logical reason to assume that now, a year older, his stamina will improve?

You mention Moose as a reason to believe that he'll have success - well then I will mention Tommy Glavine as an example of how he could go the other way. Glavine's last year with the Mets he threw 200 innings, posted a 4.54 ERA and the Braves brought him back thinking that, if nothing else, he could fill out the rotation and give them innings. He gave them 63 innings and a ERA north of 5.

I see why the Yanks are searching for trade partners for Nady or even Swisher. Because they should. But really don't think a deal is going to make sense for them to make.

If Pettitte doesn't come to his senses and sign for the very generous 10million dollar 1 year contract......

Why not offer Sheets a very incentive based contract?? 1 year with an option? A 1 year base of 5 million and incentives based on innings pitched or wins to get him up to 12million? Something of that sort......

When Sheets is healthy. He is a #1 or #2 starter on any team.

Chip

Last year Pettitte was forced to be the #1 starter. This year he is being asked to be a #4 starter. If his arm begins to wear down....you rest him by pitching Hughes, Alfredo, or one of the other young guys some more.

Lot of strain was put on his arm last year. That wouldn't happen this year.

Chip,

You worry about the miles on Petitte's arm - but you advocated the signing of Smoltz coming off a season in which he had his 30th surgery over the last 5 years.

Smoltz won't even be ready to pitch until May or June. Pettitte has thrown 200 IP in each of the last four seasons.

And Pettitte's durability is the one you worry about?

Sounds pretty irrational to me.

See that? Your hatred is getting the best of you on this issue.

The more you guys discuss the 5th spot and trading NADY or
Swisher to make $$$ room for whoever it is, the more sence
it makes to just sign someone like CAPUANO or Chuck JAMES
on the cheap. The Yanks can give either player a look-see at
ST, and go from there. With this economy, a lotta good SP are
gonna be available all season long

Chip, 01.08.09 at 14:20
I agree that one problem from hiring the manager from within will be how to effectively
handle the relationships formed as teammates. However, I don't see that as much of
a problem with Girardi as you do. Hopefully, he learned from his 2008 'mistakes'. Of
course, there isn't a way to know for a certainty until the 2009 moment is at hand, so
time will tell.

As far as handing the ball over to a 22 year-old rather than 37, I don't care as long as
it's an effective 1 year, 200 innings. My personal belief is as a SP, Andy still has
enough arm left to provide an adequate performance.

Regardless of who the Yankees put on the mound, a risk is undertaken and he will be
REPLACED if proven inadequate. Whatever strings Girardi might have tugging at his
heart, he realizes if his own performance is deemed inadequate, he will be the one
REPLACED.

IMO, by the Yankees not taking their Pettitte offer off the table, they are acknowledging
the importance of having a reliable innings eater from that spot from the starting rotation.
They want Andy, just not at Andy's asking price. The number of years might be a valid
issue but the fans won't know until either side cites it as such. I believe each side is
waiting for the other side to blink, unfortunately, Andy can easily become the odd man
out while waiting for the blink.

BB - I wish I was back in my moms basement, ahh life was so easy back then. Has it really been 14 years...my god Im getting old.

Ruse - Im only for a trade of Harang if we can't get Andy. If the Yanks can get Oli Perez for 2/24 ( the cost of Harang ) Id do it. Im not 100% against a multi year deal, just not more than 2 years. Im not 100% sold on Nady and think Swisher is as good a player. Nady could be the next Oneil, or the next Chad Curtis ....all three guys were hustle players that had similar numbers before 30. Also the prospects like Geise, Jackson and Wright are expendable... take all three if they like if it got us a horse like Harang. Once Betances, McAllister, Montero, Romine, Heredia are ready to get added to the 40 man roster, those three guys will be the 1st to go. Why not trade them away now before we have to just release them or make them available to other teams?

If there is any player we can get for 1/12 or 2/24, that is as good as Andy, Id do it. Not many guys will fit that mold of being a reliable arm capable of tossing 200 innings.

Garland, Lowe, Oli are all going to get deals longer than 2.
Colon, Sheets, Pedro, Garcia, Mulder, Capuano, Prior are all serious injury risks ( along with Penny and Smoltz )

I would love the Yanks to go after Sheets, but with the way everyone has acted after seeing his medical records, they have to be seeing some major red flags. I wouldnt mind having Sheets there with Phil to back him up. I can see Viper's concern if Sheets and AJ go down ( a very plausible situation ), then you have to rely on Phil and Ian for large chunks of the season. I would be willing to go with them, hell, I was willing to do that last year ( The investment is not considered a loss until you sell Bomber ), but I do recognize the importance of not rushing these young guys until they are 100% ready. So a vet SP for 1 or 2 years is just fine with me. Both guys will still be very young, even 2 years from now.

So with the remaining options, here's my top 5 wish list for the 5 hole.

1. Andy @ 10-12 for 1 year
2. Harang @ 2/24 ( Nady + non blue chip prospects )
3. Sheets @ the Penny deal with incentives.
4. Colon @ the Penny deal with incentive.
5. Go with Phil or Aceves or Ian based on ST, then sign Mulder, Garcia, Capuano or Prior to minor league deals for insurance.

PS. Can we get a new thread please????

kats on vacation thats why theres no new threads and as far as perez goes; there are no suitors on him except the mets and if they get Lowe, perez is not even an option. So, a 2 year 24mill contract is not out of reach To me, i love the roster now, i just need 1 more pitcher. Andy seems done with us, Harang i dont want, so, that leaves me with Ollie (i like) and Sheets (like but injuries). Forget who said it, but, why not give sheets a 5 million dollar contract with incentives leading up to around 10-12 mill based on wins and stuff. And if he fails, Hughes and Aveces and Kennedy are ready to take the 5 spot. If such a small contract could be pulled off, he is a small risk, very large reward guy, if healthy. If he gets hurt, its chump change to us.

There are some SOLID facts flying in this thread. I’ve gotta read this blog more often. I, for one, think getting Harang WOULD be a good idea. You can never have enough quality SP. NEVER. That’s what our championship years should have taught us. Heck, its what got the Rays to the WS last year. And like someone said, Harang didn’t struggle through the year. He got injured, bombed his 1st couple starts back, then got his groove back once he was solid. Looking back at his early stats ( and thinking that he’s a ground ball pitcher, especially in this division ), why wouldn’t you want him on the team?

PS x2 on starting the new thread. Its killing me to try to read this at work and be productive at the same time ;)

Johnny Damons one yeatr deal would equal two for Nady.

Whats next option Bring ing back El Duque for a year ?? haha

Johnny Damons one yeatr deal would equal two for Nady.

Whats next option Bring ing back El Duque for a year ?? haha

Damon will not be resigned. Period.

Seth, yeah Id be all for that with Sheets. Before we got AJ, I wanted Ben more than Burnett. I wont rehash the many reasons I had for that, but basically= they are similar pitchers, Ben costs much less. In the end, Im happy we have AJ due to his DOMINATE numbers against every AL East team and in every AL East park. I still harbor a man crush for Big Ben. Girardi actually got me excited when they met up last month =

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081209&content_id=3709285&c_id=nyy&vkey=news_nyy

"I thought that was a good meeting," Girardi said. "Obviously, I faced Ben Sheets when I was with the Cubs and have admired the work that he's done over the years. It was good to talk to him about his health, his routines, what he likes to do. He was a very open young man and he was impressive."

The only thing that scares me about Ben is why everyone is so reluctant to give him a deal. For a team like the Rangers, that so desperately needs SP, why not give Ben 3/36? That would blow everyone out of the water, he'd be going home to Texas and what the hell, if he fails you're right back to where you started. Its not like 12per year is going to break the bank for clubs desperate to get starting pitching. He's proven he can be a #1 dominate starter, he was the NL starting pitcher this past year in the All Star Game.

Pre All Star
10-3...3 CG...1 SHO
123 IP
108 K
28 BB
2.85 ERA
1.11 WHIP
.235 BAA

It wasnt ancient history, it was half a year ago that he was the top NL starter. The injury he had was not structural, that same injury was the only thing keeping him from going over 200 IP this year. Even then, he pitched through the injury and was solid in the 2nd half ( 3.46 ERA ) Ive spoken with some Brewers fans and they seem glad to get rid of him due to him always missing starts. I think the Yanks can take on that risk though because

A. Ben would be our 4th starter, not #1
B. We have young guys in the pipe to pick up his missed starts.

If say out of our 4 hole we get Ben for 150 innings, then we supplement the other 50 with Hughes, isnt that better than just having 200 IP from Paul Byrd? Especially if Ben gives Phil a couple months at AAA to get into a grove. We may get some solid combined numbers out of that spot. The same can be done with Joba / Ian /Aceves in the 5 hole. If by some miracle Ben stays healthy, imagine that rotation! On the flip side, if AJ, CC or Wang go down, we're screwed. Isnt that true of any club though? Are the Sox good to go if they lose Beckett, Dice K or Lester? Are the Rays still good to go without Shields, Kazmir or Garza? Any team would be hurting if they lost one of their top 3 starters.

The only thing that has me scratching my head and shifting into full GET SHEETS mode is that no teams are showing any interest in Big Ben. Smoltz and Penny got signed already, and they are just as much, if not more, or injury risks. Those medical reports must be showing something other than the injury reports that I can get on ESPN. These guys get paid tons of money to assess risk and project injuries, there must be something they see.

Leave Nady alone!
Matsui will probably break down AGAIN we need all the bats we have right now.

Then we have all this garbage with Andy. Stop feeling bad for yourself buddy, you've made more money on your last contract than most of us on this message board will amass in our lifetimes---COMBINED!
I am a huge Pettitte fan but he is being a baby. I wanna be insulted by 10 million dollars.

Wow, there are like 294 posts on this thread ... is this an all-time record?

I just read Newsday's 'Andy not a happy camper' article on the Internet.

So, he's got US$ 50 million in the bank and he's not happy?

How much money did he collect while injured? Even from Houston?

If he goes to Houston Andy can sit around with Mike Hampton and count their money together while lamenting their horrible plight(s).

Again I ask, how much money does any one person or family need?

On the other hand, why don't give Baby Andy another US$ 6 million, re-up him for another 14 wins and 200 innings at US$ 16 million and make him happy?

With all the stolen Caribbean bonus money, Igawa's posting fee, millions wasted on Abreu, Giambi, Johnson, Clemens II ... well, you can see Andy's point. He has done a lot for the team and they throw money around like a drunken sailor on shore leave. Look at how they overpaid for Jeter, A-Rod, CC and AJ.

Maybe the love of money is the root of all evil?

But since the Dollar has no gold or silver behind it, and is really worthless paper or blips on a computer screen, does it really matter anymore?

OK one more thing before I go for the night. ( gotta go to the gym and then watch the National Championship Game tonight...go Gators!!! )

Someone made this comparison before, lets do it again!!!

Which SP would you want???

Player A

22 - 107 IP...4.10 ERA...113 K
23 - 142 IP...3.04 ERA...152 K
24 - 156 IP...3.79 ERA...152 K
25 - 178 IP...3.38 ERA...166 K
26 - 204 IP...5.01 ERA...158 K
27 - 200 IP...3.27 ERA...194 K
28 - 174 IP...4.03 ERA...172 K

Player B

22 - 151 IP...4.76 ERA...94 K
23 - 216 IP...4.15 ERA...170 K
24 - 220 IP...4.45 ERA...157 K
25 - 237 IP...2.70 ERA...264 K
26 - 156 IP...3.33 ERA...141 K
27 - 106 IP...3.82 ERA...116 K
28 - 141 IP...3.82 ERA...106 K
29 - 198 IP...3.09 ERA...158 K

Both players have high upside of #1's, both players have been considered injury risks during their young careers and both players have logged less than 200IP in 5 seasons before the age of 30.

Player A is Josh Beckett
Player B is Ben Sheets

If Ben can just give us 25 starts or around 175 IP, wouldnt you guys be all for it??? If we cant get Andy or trade for Harang, why not go after Sheets? Isnt it better to have Ben and the kids instead of just the kids? It wouldnt take much to persuade him to pitch for us. Even if it was for 1 year, he's still only be 30 next winter. If he can pitch effectively for an entire year, he can hit the open market next year like AJ did this year. Even at 2/20, Id be 100% for it..

oh no, I feel those old feelings coming back. I think Sheets is moving up my top 5 for the 5 hole chart. Screw Andy, keep Harang....aaaannnnddddd ...GGGGEEETTT SSSSSHHHHEEETTTSSSS!!!!!

Have a good one all, talk with you later...hopefully on a new thread!

Again, DRU.

Nobody questions his ability on the mound. It's that he doesn't take the mound often enough.

Read what Pete Abe had to say about Sheets today:

As for Ben Sheets, believe what you want. But I have been told by officials from three teams that the MRI on his shoulder wasn’t good. If you want to close your eyes and wish really hard that he’ll be healthy, I suppose that’s an option. But it’s not a real good one.

Sounds like a pretty good reason why he hasn't received any offers yet given his upside.

Yeah Viper, I was afraid of that, there has to be something they see on those MRI's. Damn shame though, I love me some Sheets.

Good stuff today Viper, as always. Good stuff to the rest of the posters today as well, I cant believe we're going over 300 for this thread!!!

GO YANKS!!

Vipes ..
I too k some Jabs in defense of you but I kept going but in the End I think you won your Battle Today. Good Job

Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle has on his blog that, while he doesn't believe the speculation that the Giants will deal for either Nady or Swisher to play first, his "sources" indicate that Brian Cashman would rather keep Swisher and deal Nady.

It makes sense for a couple of reasons:

1. The Yankees have always loved switch hitters

2. Right now Cashman could probably get more back for Nady than Swisher

3. Swisher is under contract next year when (as we've discussed about a gillion times) Nady, Matsui and Damon are all free agents.

CHIP:
i am so pissed about this issue i cant even express it. We need to get rid of Swish just for his contract alone and the Very reason we need to kip Nady, let alone the stats. With Matsui and Damon coming off the books next year unlikely to be signed, would you rather have 2 years of swisher a utility of with an OK 1B glove who will never be used there, with a LOW LOW LOW average, OK power, and ALOT OF K's. THat is the last thing we need, we see how the long ball has helped thislineup the last few years. Or, keep Nady for a tryout this year and if and when he does well, we ink him to a 3 year deal or 4 years and keep him, a decent power, good OBP, and good average guy who can get a hit, rather than a long ball at all times. Also, can Nady really be traded and bring back THAT much more of a blue chip than Swisher can to the point where it weighs out to be more to lose talent in keeping Swish and trade Nady to get an amazing piece? At that point, yes, do it. But, there isn't gonna be a significant piece the Yankees can get as compared to Swisher.

DRU:
i really liked the comparison on beckett vs. sheets. I thought the first one was Sheets actually. And was pleasantly surpised.

All i'm going to say you deal nady and he goes on and continues his progress and Swisher hits 217 along with the rest of them scrubs and this season is over. BC has done well this offseason and needs to stand pat the bottom of that order has always been suspect and you need to have flexibility with that weak A$$ bench you have two gaping question marks in Posada and Matsui then you have the current very bad OF with damon Melky and Gardner playing Swish in right guarantees that either Mekly or Brett is the Starting CF and currently that is bad business

3. Swisher is under contract next year when (as we've discussed about a gillion times) Nady, Matsui and Damon are all free agents.

And yeah so is Posada and from the way he was playing I'm not so sure that is a good thing

Seth -

Well think about the trades that the Yankees made to get each of them.

To get Nady the Yankees gave up 3 promising young guys (Tabata, McCutchen, Ohlendorf) and Jeff Karstens

To get Swisher they gave up Wilson Betemit and Jeff Marquez.

So when you look at that it's a pretty stark contrast. Obviously Swisher hasn't done anything to increase his trade value so I would say yeah, you can get a lot more back for Nady than Swisher.

But insiders are saying in fact the Yankees maynot get much for Nady and part of the reason is Becasue he is a pending FA. so the bottom line may be did the club overspend for him in the first place with Pitt feeling the way the Yankees do now. knowing Boaras is his agent and he is a FA after the season. However the Pirates Blueprint and the yankees blueprint is different.

We also have to asked did BC really sucker Kenny williams or did they Know something about swish to deal him for basically a breathing human with a glove?

Keep Nady and make a push for extension.

the options is actually not there next year, the Cheapest option Jason Bay actually posted simular numbers to Nady last season and probally is going to cost more

Now if both guys sign for 7 mil each why not sign both instead of 14 mil per every Holliday.

nady won't sign an extension if he traded to a loser club but if the Yankees approach him . Boras is giving them that small opp to do so . if not some team like the one in MASS could turn around and sign BOTH Nady and Bay

BAY

NADY

DREW

NOTE :

Just checked Bay's salary basically he makes 6mil per

3mil more than nady

Holliday currently makes

9.5 Mil per

Carl Crawford with whom Tampa has an option

5.3 mil a year

all these guys are FA (crawford option)

Boras would jump on a Nady deal right now if possible and to be honest that deal would be crucial, if they wait to next season and lets say he hits 30 hr's and the team is in the playoffs
he is asking 8-10 mil and that would change the market big time as the other OF players i just named are going to want more.

Brian is probally thinking he can sign a Bay for X amount no realizing that him and nady is simular in age etc.

CHIP: even you said, we can get more back for Nady.
Doesnt that say anything to you?
Also, Swish was never traded for to be a starting outfielder, he was to be our everyday first baseman and an occasional start in the outfield.

Just got back from MLB Network and most agree Nady should stay but also agree could get more from Nady.

Another opinion: Keep both for added depth..... Why not? If he is traded, our bench consists of either melky cabrera OR brett gardener and like shelley duncan if he is called up and like cody ransom. Thats pretty bad. lol OH, my bad, sorry, forgot our utility infielder Angel Berroa.

Watching the Derby on the network...geez I'm gonna miss that place. Tearing down a coliseum...man that sux. However, we're going to move into a friggin space station so I'm not THAT disappointed!

I'm torn over (if Cash would trade) who to trade between the two. One hour I'm in favor of Nady, the next I'm in favor of Swish, and the next I'm pulling for Cash to keep them both. Course, theres the daily thought of devising some sort of plan to fit Manny in there roster and money-wise. GEEZ I love this sport, the network has got me caught up and that 9 show series, Baseball, wow what a documentary. Love it LOVE IT!!!

Was looking at some vid of Harang over mlb.com and his stuff is really not that bad at all. If we can get someone of his caliber, I'd say why not. I also wouldn;t mind Hughes at the number 5.

I dunno, all of this speculation...I love it, but I'm getting weak once again and just might need to revisit a Walgreens for those anxiety pills.

Matsui's contract, Giambi's contract, now Posada and Jeter's contracts ... maybe Burnett's and even CC's if he does not opt out ... these are dangerous deals for a long term perspective to the financial health of the team. And A-Rodd too.

I say clear Matsui's contract if you can and then keep getting younger.

Someone said to put Melky in RF. He's just horrible and won't be a polished MLB player, let alone a Ludwick or an Ankiel.

Cashman should keep wheeling and dealing if he can ... try to load up some cash, Matsui and some of our vaunted young arms like Marquez or Horne or Brackman or whomever and find a young, fast, fundamentally sound and mobile OF.

If you can't make a trade, then draft the right guys. Garret Cole comes to mind as the most recent first round disaster.

Why can Boston's scouts go to Arizona State and find Pedroia and the Yankees scouts can't? Is it cause they are too busy stealing the bonus money of those poor Caribbean kids?

The horrible drafts by the Yanks over the last 10 years really should be examined.

Anthony please go call your sponsor!!

We GET IT!@!!!!

Life sucks get a helmet!!

ps...Jericho still SUCKS!!

The only way it MAY be OK to trade Nady is for 2 or 3 GREAT prospects (Like the Sheffield deal) or a guy that can give us a guaranteed 200 IN of .600 pitching.

The lineup just has too many question marks to give up a guy like Nady. Matsui, Posada, Damon and Maybe Jeter could have just had down/injury affected years last year or the could all be on the way down. Cano, Melky/Gardner, Swisher may or may not live up all of their potentials.

You basically have stability out of the IF corners, ARod and Tex are gonna get their numbers.

Look at Nady's numbers and he's improved every year he's been in the league. He's a guaranteed .280, .800 OPS 20 70 AT WORST.

Unless he puts up .305, 30, 100 you don't even consider resigning him, he will be too expensive with Boras. Regardless, THIS YEAR we just can't afford to give up his stability. Plus he's shown he can handle the Bronx.

Despite all the trade rumors, I’m thinking that Nady is going to stick around for awhile.

I can’t imagine the Yanks just dumping Nady - because ya know, that would be really stupid given his value – and the market for corner outfielders is terrible as we all know.

And the return on Nady certainly won’t be as much as they gave up for him (and Marte) back in July.

These kinds of issues tend to get resolved on their own with someone going down during Spring Training or at some point early in the regular season.

Cashman certainly knows all too well that Matsui probably won’t finish the season without a few more dings on those knees. And Damon could use extra days off as well to keep his legs fresh.

Unless they get an offer they can’t refuse, which is unlikely, I think there’s a pretty chance Nady will be on the Opening Day roster.

Too much depth never hurt any ball club.

I think Viper's probably right.

Unless Brian walks into a deal that just makes too much sense to pass up I think he'll hold onto both Xavier and Swisher and rely on Girardi to find a way to get everyone enough at bats.

In the end, the most likely scenario has Girardi playing a starting OF of:

Damon - CF
Swisher - LF
Nady - RF

and then late in games putting Gardner or Melky (which ever one is with the club) in CF for defense and moving Damon over to LF. That will last until Matsui or Damon get hurt and then the glut will sort itself out.

Incidentally - in looking at 2010's FA class - don't be entirely shocked if we enter that season looking something like this offensively:

Gardner - LF
Jeter - SS
Tex - 1b
Alex - 3b
Posada - DH
Cano - 2b
Swisher - RF
Jackson - CF
Cervelli - C

Is it Me or did Anthony's last post actually make some sense.

Great point Viper , I said last night to Chip that it is said that BC won't get much in return for Andy than he gave up to get him
==========================================
Posted by Bronx Bomber | January 8, 2009 19:44 But insiders are saying in fact the Yankees maynot get much for Nady and part of the reason is Becasue he is a pending FA. so the bottom line may be did the club overspend for him in the first place with Pitt feeling the way the Yankees do now. knowing Boaras is his agent and he is a FA after the season. However the Pirates Blueprint and the yankees blueprint is different.

We also have to asked did BC really sucker Kenny williams or did they Know something about swish to deal him for basically a breathing human with a glove?
======================================================================================================================

Bomber -

I don't think anyone swindled anyone in the Swisher deal.

The White Sox wanted to cut payroll (possibly to make a run at Manny) and so the Yankees were willing to take some. The guys the Yankees gave up were probably going to be non-tendered (Betemit) or exposed to the Rule 5 draft (Marquez). And at that time the Yankees thought that Swisher would probably be their everyday 1b.

No, I don't think Ant's post made sense. Yes, Boston has done remarkably well with their drafting of players and the Yankees haven't. But since the team revamped it's philosophy in regard to the draft and international free agents we're seeing more players come through the system (Hughes, Joba, Wang, Cano, Gardner, Melky, Cervelli) and their are more on the way (Montero, Romaine, McAllister, Garcia, Betances, Melancon...) Boston's just ahead of us is all and so their players got to the majors first.

Another former nady team possibly wants him back.

the Pittsburgh Pirates are intrested in aquiring nady.

The Boston redsox is trying to build the all out team as they signed Mark Kotsay

Another former nady team possibly wants him back.

the Pittsburgh Pirates are intrested in aquiring nady.

The Boston redsox is trying to build the all out team as they signed Mark Kotsay

For those who don't get the mlb network and are salivating over Ken Burns's Baseball series being shown there, a poster on Pete Abe's blog says you can add the whole series to your queue on Netflix and stay happy from now till ST.

The Pirates would probably try to take advantage of the Yankees situation, get Nady back for nothing much due to his impending free agency and the crowded corner OF market and then trade him again in July. They could build a whole farm system out of this guy! Pretty soon everybody in the league will have been involved in some Nady trade or another.

Six degrees of the X Man!

I have that series on DVD. It's outstanding. Lots of old footage and factoids you'll never see anywhere else.

Ken Burns was a guest on MLB Network the other night and he said that there is an update currently in production and will continue the series from 1992 to present day - covering the '94 strike, steroid sra, Yankee Dynasty, and everything else.

Can't wait to see that. It will certainly be top notch stuff.

I'm loving the new network. Lots of great stuff and I'm glad they've added Bob Costas to do some work for them.

Costas is truly one of the best baseball historians and storytellers in broadcast in history - yes, history.

He's great at whatever sport he covers, but baseball has always been his passion.

Another former nady team possibly wants him back.

the Pittsburgh Pirates are intrested in aquiring nady.

The Boston redsox is trying to build the all out team as they signed Mark Kotsay

"Swisher preferred over Nady"

That Yankee front office is on top of sh!t like a fly. Thanks for the insight KEN DAVIDOFF, you smart journalist you.

wink

The Red Sox are really starting to irk me. First Baldelli and Smoltz and now Kotsay who I think would have been a nice fall back for the Yankees in CF.

Ken's article mentions a team that would be a good fit for Nady - that's the Mets. Unless they really believe Fernando Tatis is going to give them anything close to what he gave them last year.

Eric Hinske is considering offers to go play in Japan - I'm sorry but the Yankees can't be lax about adressing their bench and Hinske would be a huge help. He's proven he can hit off the bench which is not an easy thing to do (just ask Morgan Ensberg).

OK so everyone loves Nady, thats clear. I also think that everyone can agree that the Yanks best case scenario is Andy signing a 1 year deal

With that all said, what if Andy doesnt sign? Which scenario do you guys/gals prefer?

1 - Trade Nady and some prospects for a reliable guy like Harang?
2 - Keep Nady for the depth and sign an unreliable arm with upside like Sheets or Colon?
3 - Keep Nady and sign a lower level SP like Byrd or Leiber?
4 - Keep Nady and sign Garland to a 2/3 year deal?
5 - Do nothing else and have the kids fight it out for #5?

What do you guys/gals think is more important for the team over the long haul of the 09 season and beyond? For me, Im leaning toward option 2.

Sorry for the reposts,

Your right Jim A haha.

Yeah Costos is the best at that for sure.

Buck O'Neil was also a great baseball historian ,If I'm not mistaken did he not have a role in that Ken Burns presentation

Chip,
The Yankees roster is full so they need to clear someone out before adding bench help. I think the reason you are seeing the team trying to move an OF is because they want to get more flexibility on the bench.
In an ideal world I think the Yanks would prefer to make a deal that rids them of one of the corner OF's and Melky in return for an everyday CF and then they can wait until spring training to pick up some bench help.

Davidoff's article says the Yanks really like Swisher's upbeat and fiery personality and that's why they prefer him over Nady. One of the things I read in a Chicago paper shortly after Swisher was traded to the Yanks was that he was quite the opposite last season as he was pouting and sullen for most of the season.
Obviously he is only upbeat and fiery when he is producing on the field and there are no guarantees that last year's disastrous season is not going to repeat itself while the quiet and reserved Nady just keeps producing.
If the Yanks want upbeat and fiery they should just hire Billy Mays to sit on the bench (he could sell Yanks merchandise too).

Chip...so the Sox are irking you because they signed Baldelli, Smoltz and Kotsay? How do you think they felt when Grinchbrenner stole their shiny, brand new Tex toy from under their Christmas tree? They can sign 20 of those guys, they still wont equal one Tex. I see what the Sox are doing, they couldnt land the big prize so instead they are adding depth to their club. Not a bad plan at all considering they were 1 game from the WS with Beckett and Papi hurt, and have the same team coming back.

Breaking News!! The Yanks are still the 3rd best team in the AL East until proven otherwise. For the past 8 years the Yanks have been the January Paper champs of the league, if the WS was played on a Xbox on Feb 1st, we'd have multiple rings in the 2000's. Make no mistake my friends, this is gonna be a war and will come down to the last week of the season. One of these three great teams is going to be left without a chair when the music stops. As of right now, we're the only one of those three who's feet are hurting.

Truthfully, the addition of Teixiera has almost lessened the need for a strong bench and good bench or part time players like Wigginton are not going to want to sign with the Yanks because he'll rarely play.

Unless they are dealing with a significant injury - it's pretty tough to get A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, and now Teixeira out of the lineup.

This is probably going to be their bench for awhile:

Swisher or Nady
Melky or Gardner
Ransom or Berroa (although someone else could emerge)
Molina

Depending on how Posada's shoulder handles catching duties - it also wouldn't shock me if they carried a third catcher again.

Really, having Swisher or Nady playing part time really does make this a decent bench.

Viper my friend is right again, Arod, Jeter, Tex and Cano all play 160 games a year. Where is that other utility infielder going to come into play if there are no injuries? If our OF is Damon, Gardner and Nady with Matsui as DH...Swisher can give any of those guys a day off and it wouldnt surprise me if Joe rotated all 5 throughout the season. Swisher is a guy who led the league in pitcher per plate appearance, is a switch hitter and can knock the cover off the ball. Thats a great guy to have on the pine.

I guess after being snakebit by the Igawa signing no one on this blog has suggested NY sign Kawakami .It is rumored NY has a growing interest.

Teams seem to be more interested in Swisher than in Nady,this I find somewhat surprising.

Swisher would have to adjust from being "Giambi Light" to riding the pines .I don't think so .It's something he's not accustomed to and with his salary would seem like a waste....

Dru ...

options #3 and #5

I liked Lieber his time here before especially in the playoffs.

I also think at number 4-5 Hughes would be ideal

Right now, their top priority should be to secure the back end of that rotation with someone they feel is very likely to throw 200 IP.

I love Hughes, but he has to have a full injury-free 2009 season before I trust giving him a rotation slot.

He's missed too much time to be trusted just yet and he needs to log innings sown in Scranton to continue to work on his secondary pitches (change, curve, and new cutter) as well as his location and command.

He'll get his opportunities to pitch for the big club whether he starts the season in Scranton or not.

Someone in that rotation will go down and miss some time. It's inevitable.

That whole article about the Yanks getting more inquiries
for Swisher than NADY, is another Cashman smokescreen.
He purposely leaked that story, trying to either get some GM
off the dime, or start a stampede to move Swisher. I have too
much respect for any GM, to believe they would prefer Swisher
and the extra $$$ involved, over the productive NADY.
Cashman is a riot.

Angel Borroa is Major league talent, signed to minor league deal, OK where does he fit in?

Tom,
Berroa might be a good fit because he can play shortstop, which is something the Yanks lost when they traded Betemit. Ransom can play the corner infield positions better than the middle and as Viper astutely pointed out, Teix won't be sitting very much.

The last time NY had 4 starters to go over 200 innings was 2003 and before that you have to go way back,it's doubtful given the schedule that the 4th and 5th starter spots will pitch more than 360 innings combined.I would suspect Joba coming in at 170-180 innings and provided NY decides on Hughes as the 5th no more than 160 innings with Aceves and Kennedy in the wings

Yes it would be great to have an experienced starter in the 4th or 5th slot but I don't think it's absolutely essential .

Joba is going to be closer to 140 - 150 IP assuming he stays healthy all season.

Another starter who can throw 200 IP is indeed essential if someone like Burnett goes down (which is anything but a long shot).

Injuries will happen. That's a guarantee.

They need that depth. Their playoff hopes could depend on it.

I have read most of the emails about the possible trades of Nady or Swisher. Why do we have to trade either one of them. Lets look at the team in general. If Andy P. does not come back let Hughes, et al. battle it out. I know. Hughes has not been healthy for him to develope. Well if you keep him at AAA the intensity for him to pitch is not there. Sure he wants to make it back to the big leagues but put him out there or whomever wins the battle for the 5th spot with the other guys set up as long relief and or middle relief. Develope the talent that has proceeded past AAA. If they can't pitch past AAA sell at wholesale and move on.

As far as the overcrowded OF, as of now Matsui is DH . He'll have to get use to it but the fans will be elated. I have seen enough of his blazing speed and cannon like arm in the OF. Damon, Nady, Swisher this should be our starting OF with Damon and Nady on the corners and Swisher in CF. He's less of a glove man than Gardner or Melky but he's and everyday player if you don't agree with the CF situation than put the winner of Gardner and Melky in CF with Swisher alternating at all three positions and 1B. He can get 400 AB's without much issue plus we will have injuries to OF's and possible DH. So keep him unless the deal of the season comes about. Its Girardi's job to manage his players playing time to keep them sharp, fresh and injury free as much as possible. The thought of anyone playing 162 games who has advance past the age of 32 should be suspect. If someone from the organization can be the 5th man in the roation then the 10 million attempted to be save is accomplished. If this is the intent of the trades of either Swisher or Nady. What a bench we will have if those guys are not traded.

Larry M

I completely agree. I think the best option if Pettitte is not signed is to not do anything. Having depth is always a really nice "problem" to have.

I would like to see the Yanks pick up Juan Cruz though. Having even more depth in the bullpen is also a very nice "problem" to have. We would only need pay him a couple million for 1 or 2 years and would only have to give up a 4th rounder.

McCarthy: I just read the article on Cruz on mlbrumors.com. It sounds good to me. The bullpen has not been attended to except for Marte but Edwar Ramierz is not a favorite of mine. He has no real outpitch except for his changeup but his fastball is not that electric to set up his change. I believe he had his day in the sun and could easily be replaced as batters just sit and wait on the first fastball that he throws.

Was saying this last night. Swisher can platoon with Gardner in
center, with Gardner coming in for defense when Swisher plays.
Swisher could also start against tough righties to give Nady a
break once in a while.

Only weakness I saw with Nady last year was when he faced
tough righties with average to good sliders. Swisher,Gardner
and Nady would get plenty of ab's with this type of rotation.
Instead of grabbing Cruz, we should give Melancon a shot at
this level and use Veras as trade bait if the right deal
comes along.

To Mike and McCarthy: It seems that if the rumors are true and not some reporters baseless writing. The Yankees have a quality team on paper but appear to be freightened by the aspect of no All Star at every position . Look not knowing eveyone's age I can go back to '57 WS and remember the Braves were the opponent. I just turned 8 at the time. So I'l refer to the mid 90's to 2001 WS teams. There was not an All Star at every position. Curtis, Ledee Knoblock, Girardi,Hayes but we had pitching staffs second to no one with timely uncanny hitting and a great don't quit attitude.

Some of you guys need to look at Swisher's stats last season.
Other than HR's, the guy didn't hit from either side of the plate,
and K'd up the ying-yang. He's basically a switch-hitting Marcus
Thames. Swisher is a good 4th OF\ bench player. That's it.
Regarding Juan Cruz, his role could be along the lines of
RUDY MAY at the tail end of his career. Very valuable swing
man.

This may not be 100% accurate but during the late 90's this was the "official" Allstar participants we had.......

'96
Wade Boggs
Chuck Knoblauch
John Wetteland
Andy Pettitte

'97
Tino
O'Niell
Knoblauch
Bernie
Cone
Mo

'98
David Wells
Scott Brosius
Bernie
O'Niell
Jeter

'99
Bernie
Jeter
Mo
Cone

'00
Jeter
Williams
Posada
Mo

If you do the math.....more than half of these all star appearances were made by home grown Yankee talent. Ahhhhh the good ol days.

Most of these teams were put together with "role players" who seemed to all come together when it mattered.

Swisher career .240 hitter vs. RHP he will certainly give NY a real edge
Nady .317 vs.RHP in 08

ruse -

A player is never as bad as he is at his worst and never as good as when hes at his best.

Swisher was at his worst last year and Nady was at his best......just for thought

Chip,

You think we could trade Cano and Hughes for McClouth and Maholm?

PS. WHY DOES EVERY ANALYST FROM Keith Law to Harold Reynolds think we need a bullpen arm?

Wasn't our bullpen like tops in the league or damn close to it last year?

What changed?

WOW WE LOST OLENDORF SO WHAT??

What am I missing!!

I've got an idea...

Trade Cano + prospect for Kemp and sign Orlando Hudson.

Trade Swisher, Nady, Hughes for Matt Cain.

Sign Abreu for a one yr deal at 10 million.

Damon
Jeter
Tex
Alex
Abreu
Matsui
Posada
Kemp CF with SPEED and power could solve the BJ Upton thing
Hudson

Speed at the top and bottom and fabulous defensive upgrades all over the field!!

CC
Wang
AJ
Cain
Joba

If we need another pitcher for the pen or rotation at Midseason trade Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy, and mabye one of the two 7footers (Betances Brackman?)

What do you think?

I think it would be easier to sign Andy keep Hughes and sign Abreu for one year.

But I'd love to get Kemp and Hudson for their speed and defense.

Okay Viper tell me how stupid I am LOL...

I know Mike Francesa isn't smart enough to tell his listeners this but McLouth is not a good center fielder and has limited range.

He is a corner outfielder who happens to play CF for the Pirates and the Yanks already have enough corner outfielders.

McLouth finished the 2008 season with a -15.3 UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) - which was the worst in the NL for regular center fielders.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=cf&stats=fld&lg=nl&qual=y&type=0&season=2008&month=0

What's UZR you say?

UZR (ultimate zone rating): The number of runs above or below average a fielder is in both range runs and error runs combined.

McLouth was also ranked #27 among 30 NL outfielders

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=fld&lg=nl&qual=y&type=0&season=2008&month=0

There's an assumption among many people that McLouth is a great outfielder. But the truth of the matter is that he's far from it.

He's got a great arm out there but he's got limited range.

Material World,

All I can do is shake my head and hope you've been pounding some hard liquor all afternoon.

Yeesh.

HAH nope not yet ;-)

It's still early even for me but I do plan on having a few adult beverages before the evening is thru.

What about Kemp and Hudson or even Abreu as I said above?

Burrell got 8 from Tampa you don't think we could give Bobby 10 to play one year and then trade IPK + Nady or Swisher for Harang?

Still leaves us with "Kansas City Brett" in CF which still irritates me but I'd feel better with Abreu's everyday OBP in front or behind Alex so we can carry an automatic out like Melky/Brett.

If Andy finally stops crying couldn't we sign Bobby A for one year and get on the bus for Tampa?

I'd certainly feel better if Joba and Phil were not expected to be our 4 and 5 all season when both have 150 innings at best in them this year...

How about trading both Swisher and Nady and resigning Bobby A for one more year?

JON K: IF we ever traded both Swisher and Nady, it would only to be to clear payroll for one player, and if I have to name that player, than you are R3TARDED!

Seth,
Matsui would definitely have to go before the Yanks even considered signing you know who.
It would be Matsui and either Nady or Swisher.

What a dream that would be:

Damon-LF
Jeter-SS
Manny- DH
A-Rod- 3B
Teixeira- 1B
Posada-C
Swisher-RF
Cano-2B
Gardner/Melky-CF

The bottom of the lineup would still have questions, but the top would do more than enough damage to satisfy us.

Do not sign Abreu, he is a drunk, parties and was a bad influence on Melky and Cano, who are all but children on and off the field.

Would Boston ever trade Pedroia for Cano one for one? It's laughable.

Abreu is also afraid of the outfield wall.

Nady can play 1B and even 3B, and can play LF and RF. I would keep him over Swisher.

Abreu is a drunk? Nady can play 3B? I have to admit, these are things I have never heard before.

So Ant, are you back in the country? Last I recall you were going overseas for a teaching job or something like that.

Material World,

Why in the world would the Yanks want Abreu back?

They let him walk because he's 36 years old and he is one of the worst defenders in the game. They already have a DH in Matsui.

Nady is considerably younger and his defense is significantly better than Abreu. They need to keep improving their defense and rid themselves of butchers.

I'd keep both Nady and Swisher. Matsui has a lot of miles on those knees and Damon isn't getting any younger. Extra days off for those guys sound like a pretty good idea and I wouldn't be surprised if Matsui had major issues again with his wheels.

You never know, but both Nady and Swisher could be starters at some point, so I don't see any legitimate reason to move Nady - especially since they won't get nearly as good of a return as they paid for him (and Marte) back in July.

Despite the trade rumors, I don't think Nady is going anywhere for awhile.

As far as the rotation is concerned, their best option is still Pettitte and I believe they'll work something out eventually.

This is the starters and innings pitched totals for the 1998 team .Remember them??

Pettitte 216
Wells 214
Cone 207
Irabu 173
El Duque 141
Mendoza 88

These 6 accounted for 156 starts.
I'm trying to illustrate that the 4th and 5th starters can get by with 100 or so less innings than the top 3.If anyone of the top 3 break down then you can plug in Aceves and Kennedy for a month or so this would also apply to the 4th and 5th spots. The Yanks have 7 starters to plug 5 slots in the rotation and of course there is always the trade deadline.
El Duque came along in early June 98 and outside of a couple of clinkers was tremendous.I'm not comparing Aceves and IPK to El Duque just sharing a memory.

This is the starters and innings pitched totals for the 1998 team .Remember them??

Pettitte 216
Wells 214
Cone 207
Irabu 173
El Duque 141
Mendoza 88

These 6 accounted for 156 starts.
I'm trying to illustrate that the 4th and 5th starters can get by with 100 or so less innings than the top 3.If anyone of the top 3 break down then you can plug in Aceves and Kennedy for a month or so this would also apply to the 4th and 5th spots. The Yanks have 7 starters to plug 5 slots in the rotation and of course there is always the trade deadline.
El Duque came along in early June 98 and outside of a couple of clinkers was tremendous.I'm not comparing Aceves and IPK to El Duque just sharing a memory.

Ruse,
Your point is a good one. The problem I see for the Yanks as of today is they have two guys who could give them 200 innings and one of those two is coming off an injury. Burnett cannot be counted on to go 200 innings so it would really be nice if the number 4 guy could do it.

I loved the comments by Pavano at his news conference, I got a good belly laugh out of that. If you missed it he said something like "when you are down you expect your organization to pick you up, not kick you when you are down and I've had to pick myself up quite a bit the past four years".

Too bad he always re-injured himself when he picked himself up. What a piece of crap he is. Watch him win the Cy Young this year.....

There are some major issues with comparing the current Yankee roster and the 1998 team.

El Duque was technically a rookie but he was a seasoned veteran on the mound after being the ace of a very good Cuban rotation for a number of years.

Phil Hughes is no El Duque - not by a long shot. At least not yet at this stage of his career. Hughes still needs to work on a lot of things before he becomes anything close to what El Duque was at that time.

Also, both Joba and Hughes will be limited to roughly 140 - 150 IP this season. That means 40% of your rotation will have innings limits before you even play the first game.

So if you start the season with both Joba and Hughes in the rotation - the maximum number of innings you'd get from them combined if everything worked out to perfection is about 280 - 300 IP.

You are also assuming Burnett will throw 200 IP, which is something he's only done 3 times in 9 seasons, including last season in a contract year. He's only thrown 200 IP once in a non-contract year.

You are also assuming that the rotation as it exists now is going to stay healthy, which is also a major assumption given the injury histories of Burnett, Hughes, Wang coming off his injury, and even Joba to an extent.

The starters on that 1998 team threw at least 7.0 IP an astounding 91 times. I'd venture that no team in the last 20 years (outside of perhaps the Braves during the 90s) accomplished such an impressive feat.

Your optimism that everything will work out as the roster exists now is nice and all but the odds that the season actually turns out that way are not very good.

Not to mention this is a much tougher AL East in 2009 than it was in 1998. There weren't three teams in that division who have a real strength in the rotation and a legitimate shot at a World Series.

You could make that case for the Yanks, Red Sox, or Rays. Not so much 11 years ago.

BTW, another thing to add about the 1998 team is that six starters combining for 156 starts is ridiculously impressive and illustrates how much they were able to avoid the injury bug.

That's something we can't ever assume they will do again. In fact, I'd bet my 2009 salary that they won't be able to do that this season.

Add in the fact that the competition was just not there in 1998. The Rays were horrible, the O's had started their losing ways, Toronto was mediocre and in the other divisions Detroit, Minnesota and CHW weren't very good. The Angels were just getting started and the A's and Mariners were bad that year.

Now it seems that the competition is better all around as the extra money teams receive from revenue sharing has helped teams find, develop and keep their players.

MLB NETWORK!!!

So I DVRed the 96 WS from the MLB Network last night. Watching those highlights was amazing, it seems like a lifetime ago. I have to admit, I got all misty eyed. Without a doubt my favorite WS of all time.

This bring back Abreu nonsence flies in the face of upgrading
the SP. He plays horrible defense, his foot speed on the bases
is not even close to what it once was, and he can't catch up
with a decent fastball anymore. In general, he's morphing into
a present day Giambi. The Yanks are a better team without
either of these players. Trading away good young players for
McLouth is a waste of talent. Give Melky a look-see at ST, and
go from there. The Pirates are great for dumping players come
every July 31. If McLouth is available now, he'll be available then.