On the Yankees beat

Maybe have Mussina, Pettite, Hughes and Joba all back on strict pitch counts and innings counts.

Oh wait, Wang is coming back too from an injury

Have Mussina, Pettitte, Hughes, Wang and Joba on very strict innings counts.

And then wonder why the middle relief is exhausted in June

Sidney Ponson and Carl Pavano combined for more wins than Hughes, Kennedy and Joba

Who would have had THAT pick at the beginning of the year?

Better sign Mark Teixera. He'll solve that problem

Jim A, what's the point of a 6 inning starter if you blow the lead in the 7th or 8th

It always boggles my mind that people don't understand this concept.

Tell me you all know its worse to blow a lead in the 7th, 8th and 9th than it is to blow it in the 3rd, 4th and 5th, right?

You do understand that concept right?

If you blow a lead in the 4th, you have the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th to get it back.

If you blow a lead in the 8th or 9th, you get 1 or 2... or maybe ZERO chances to get the lead back.

You all understand this, right?

And you do know that in 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001 the Yankees bullpen blew a grand total of one lead... the 9th of game 7 of the 2001 World Series.

Ergo the bullpen was the strength. Yeah they had good starters... but the Braves had better starters and they only won one World Series... and they lost late inning games in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004 and 2005.

Do you see a pattern?

So please, before I hear another "What's the point of a good bullpen if you are losing early" stop and ask yourself "How is baseball played?"

An early deficit can be made up.
A late deficit is harder to do... sometimes impossible (as in 2001 and 2004)

And if you are going to put 40% and maybe as many as 60% of the rotation on bedrest with insane pitchcounts... maybe... juuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe... you should spend some serious coin and development time on very talented pitchers in the bullpen.

Nahhhhhh.
Why?
Relievers aren't important!
It's a waste of talent!

It's more important to protect the lead in the 2-5th innings...
IN BIZARRO WORLD!!!!!

I voted for bringing back both Mussina and Pettitte pending any free agent signings. Like most fans, I'd like to see the Yankees get younger, but I'm not exactly sold on either Hughes or Kennedy. I think Joba is a legitimate starter, but it looks as though he'll be in the bullpen for the first month or two of the season. Regarding Pettitte, I agree with Kat that if he is to be re-signed he will have to take a significant pay cut from $16 million. As far as Mussina goes, even though he's a few years older than Pettitte, I think it makes sense to bring him back. He has several pitches at his disposal and isn't as reliant on his fastball as he once was. Also, he would likely get a one-year deal with possibly an option, and that meshes with the stated goal of roster flexibility and fewer long-term/big money contracts.

I have a feeling you will see an owner wanting to make a spending splash and sign Mussina or Pettitte to a longer term contract

Maybe the Cubs

With pitching at a premium, I don't see any discounts and keep in mind it just takes one dumb owner to think Mussina is worth 3 years

Sully,
I'll try to ignore your condescending tone for a bit and just say this: The Yankees need good starting pitching because they have a good enough bullpen to win right now, without Joba in it. If the guys weren't pitching 4 innings per night, they would be even better. The Yankees need starters to consistently get them to the 7th inning and that is what has always worked for winning teams in baseball. Sure there are a few exceptions (Tigers a couple years ago because they couldn't play defense), but for the most part good starting pitching wins and it's that simple. I'm not even saying they need overpowering starters from 1-5, they need Mussina (v. '08) type guys who can get them through 7 innings without the score looking like a slow pitch softball game.

And please, save the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" crap for your blog please, it's getting a bit old here. As far as I can tell, you have no expertise that makes your opinion any better than anyone else around here unless producing b.s. commercials or what have you suddenly made you a respected guru in annals of major league pitching.

With no disrespect to anyone, some fans comment several times about the same thing, I usually keep my comments brief, and to the point, thank you. Mussina and Petitte should return next season, and someone in the Yankees scouting staff has alot of explaining to do.

The question should not be "should" the Yanks bring Pettitte back...but is he willing to come back for a contract like Wakefields?

Check out the career stats before any of you go into a snit....the numbers are quite similar

If Andy was willing to pitch for 4mm/yr...I let him pitch as long as he wanted to. I also would not set my expectations too high...he is a guy who is clearly past his prime, but is still a damn good pitcher. He understands what it means to pitch in the lime-light of NYC and is a true Yankee....he will give the Yanks 13-15 wins a year and 150+ innings....that is solid.

Thank you Kat, for the photo of Yankees fans on the Yankees blog, above Hank S's photo. Sully and Chip never looked so good. Starting pitching is the way to go, I have watched baseball alot more than some novices have.

I would like to make a comment about todays , well, comments..and how easy it is to post something, get criticized, and blame it on a troll. Believe me, I am NOT defending anyone, just my opinion of todays proceedings. Now lets all kiss and make up, it really has been a long season, especially for my recap site., Islander1955@aol.com.

Sorry for the snarky tone...
I guess it reads more a--holish than I meant it to.

Trust me I love this blog and the good fans on it and I am always looking for a spirited debate. Didn’t mean to sound like such a d-ck and I apologize.

OK, that out of the way

And yes you need both starters and relievers... but with the Yankees adopting an insane "We won't let our talented pitchers pitch" mantra, the need to have the 7th, 8th and 9th innings secure are critical because, as I pointed out, you blow the lead then you don't get many more chances to get the lead back.

Even your rebuttal doesn't answer the question of what to do in those late innings besides assume Mariano Rivera will be awesome for all time.

And the rebuttal doesn’t address what separated the 1990s Yankees with the 1990s Braves… Atlanta’s starting pitching was much better.

If I remember you were advocating putting Joba and Hughes on pitch counts. Well, I ask you, with as little snark as possible, don't you think that if the Yankees do something like that they should make sure the late innings are secure?

But anyway… I’ll behave. As I said, I like it here. It’s better than hanging out with Red Sox fans. (I admit, we are annoying)

Sully sheepishly holds out an olive branch to Jim A

Alright here are my thoughts:

1. Joba should be a starter. No ifs ands or buts about it. As I said a few days ago, Andy broke in at 24 and threw 170 innings, why can't Chamberlain? The way the Yankees are treating him and Hughes is destining both pitchers to be 5 inning guys who miss two weeks at every minor injury (or in other words, more talented versions of Jaret Wright)

2. Andy and Moose should not be back - at least not at their current salaries. I'm assuming that the Yankees are going to give a blank check to CC. I'm also not 100% sure he's going to take it. Either way, I can think of pitchers out there I would rather spend 16 and 11 mil on annually other than these two (AJ Burnett for one, Yu Darvish for another)

3. The Yankees do need a more athletic CF and Melky ISN'T it. Francessa has been all about Nate McLouth lately, but I don't see Pitt trading him (though I have floated some scenarios). Here's something more plausible, along the lines of the Hamilton/Volquez deal. Yankees send Phil Hughes to the Reds for Jay Bruce and Bronson Arroyo. I am still a big Hughes fan, and think he will be a front of the rotation starter (along with Joba if they ever let him pitch) but with Hughes, Joba, Brackman, Sanchez - they have lots of high end right handed pitchers

4. You can't get on the Red Sox for their home grown pitching. Bucholtz struggled this year but Delcarmen and Masterson look like they'll be good relievers.

5. Giambi, Abreu - goodbye.

In terms of centerfield, I think the Yankees should keep Damon and groom Gardner or Austin Jackson

Everyone says they need to get younger, hungrier and more athletic. Why not give them a shot?

I 'm ambivalent to Andy and Moose coming back but this is based on FA signings and or trades this winter. The Sox's have Tim Wakefield who is 42 years of age. So, Moose could be signed if necessary with a one year contract. Andy could be a very good number 4 in the rotation with a one year contract. So here is what I liked to see. Wang, some bigtime FA, Joba, Andy and Hughes. If there is no FA signing or trade but I doubt this.

We need to get younger but not blindly. I like Abreu except for his play near the walls which is so obvious. He hustles and is a true number 3 hittter. He is not part of our problem.

First base and centerfield need big time attention. Brett Gardner is starting to look AAAA to me. I've never seen a more confident hitter taking strike after strike with such limited ability to get the bat on the ball. Giambi must go as much as I like him and his attitude. We have to improve at the above mentioned positions.

If we improve our pitching which should be a given after this season of ??????????? and improve CF and 1B, a better bench. Some minor bullpen adjustments. Sorry Edwar and Britton have to go. Acevetes should be given Rasner's or Ponson's spot in the rotation and lets see what he has. Rasner and Ponson have to go this is a given.

If these changes are made with FA signings and trades. This team can win in 2009. IMHO

Sully - I don't think Brett Gardner has enough stick to play CF (not in a lineup that will have Damon and diminishing returns from Posada, Jeter and Matsui)

I agree with grooming Jackson but he's a good year or two away - at which point Damon will be a FA and whomever the Yankees bring in (Bruce, DeJesus, whatever) can shift to LF, or Jackson can play LF. With the dimensions of the new stadium expected to mimic the current one, there's no harm having a player with CF skills playing LF.

Wow Sully is talkin' smack!

You OK man? You make some fine points but we are all friends here. So chill please ;-)

Pettitte and Moose is a big noooooooooooooooo....FA and trades could address their replacements plus Wang comes back.

I would go with Gardner in CF if AJax shows he is capable in the 'zona league and could possibly be a replacement come late '09 early '10 at the soonest. Or look elsewhere cheap but with a good glove.

Realist... I apologized and extended an olive branch

I sometimes forget that in person something can be said with a grin and be kind of funny but typed just look like I am an a--hole.

You've got to say good bye to Pettite, Mussina, Giambi and Abreu.
If you get a 1st rounder for each one, you are 4 players closer to having a restocked farm.

I hate to say it, but Cashman needs a little Theo in him.
Theo will say goodbye to icons if he feels they are on the downside and as hard as that can be emotionally (I still miss Pedro) it can be the smart thing (thank GOD we didn't sign Pedro, Nomar and Lowe to long term contracts)

Branch accepted Sully...i just read your rendering ;-)

I agree with you regarding Pettitte, Moose, Giambi and Abreu...i would add Marte as well....saya nora!

Btw, Sully..

I went back and re-read and could see the comical effect ;-)...point takin :-)

I hope the twins and the better half are well...

Wife and kids are good
we moved into a new house last week

MOVING WITH 3 YEAR OLD TWINS IS FUN!!!!
(hope the sarcasm was detectable there)

;-)

Ok, first: Hopefully people figured the post at 16:38 wasn't me and second to my boy Sully: We're cool, BUT, I never advocated putting Hughes and Joba on pitch counts- I'm old school and I hate the babying that people do and believe me. I posted a couple days ago that I thought the Yankees were embarrassing themselves with this Joba yo-yo thing they have going on.

As I said earlier, I think with the rest that would come with starters giving them 7 innings on a regular basis, the Yankees pen as currently constructed could be good, if not very good. Edwar Ramirez is worn out and it's showing lately. I mean the guy only weighs as 85 lbs and he's pitching every day it seems, but with the starters giving these guys the ocassional day off, they would be better and I'm counting on Sanchez and Brackman to come back and help out in the 'pen.

I just think the mindset of the team is different when they have a good starter going. I saw an interview recently with Cal Ripken Jr. and he said on the days when the team had good starters the team didn't feel pressured to score a bunch of runs the way they did when they had a bum on the mound like Rasner. I think it has a trickle down effect on the whole team.

i apologize for my misconscrewing (as Archie Bunker would say) your humor earlier.

Jim A.,

85 lbs...?????? That's with a pocketfulla chaw ;-)......Ugggh...I don't like Ramirez, damn crybaby...:-)

Yeah, I was at the game where Edwar cried after giving up a grand slam against the (then) Devil Rays last year. I lost a little respect for him then, but I think he figured he had blown his last chance in the majors, especially given the fact that Joe T. didn't trust him anyway. I think his career was all over the place if I remember right- minors, cut from the Angels I think, Independant League etc. Still, I wouldn't be crying on the field.

Sully

Limited pitchcount/innings does not mean 5 innings - It means 6 or 7 with a pitcher with decent control - I think Girardi tends to leave his starters in too long anyway.

The Yankees have an awful lot of pitching talent in the minors - asking a bullpen of 7 pitchers to pitch 2-3 innings a night should not blow the bullpen out.

With good management bullpen pieces can be moved back and forth with the minors as well, giving the bullpen even more depth.

Obviously, the comment above wasn't from me. Guess some of us are just frustrated Yankees fans, hoping we have a Football or Hockey interest to bide our time during the long Winter ahead. I personally will stillwatch the playoffs, and I consider myself more a "Fan of the Sport" than a Yankee fan.

You idiot....or as chip said, nit-wit.

At least pay attention if you're trying to be a pain in the ass....

I am a Sox fan as anyone on this board can attest. I am no "front runner"...been a Sox fan all my life, as most of these folks here have been Yankee fans all of theirs...

But, like most of these folks, I am a baseball fan first and enjoy intelligent discussion and debate....neither of which you have absolutely no clue about.

I suppose wasting our time on here, is at least a benefit for your poor mother....she knows where the dolt is and doesn't have to worry about dragging your sorry ass home with another bloody lip from a sandbox squabble.