On the Yankees beat

My oh my, what an instant gratification group we are. I just re-read the live chat and saw where Kat said the Yankees should have traded Hughes, Kennedy and Melky for Johan. Um, no.

First of all, that wasn't the trade on the table it was either Hughes and Melky or Kennedy, Wang and Melky.

Second, the trade (and signing) of Johan meant that Andy wasn't going to be brought back.

Third, it's easy to look at it in year one and say it was a mistake, but I still believe that over the course of Johan's contract the gap between him and Hughes will close significantly.

Hughes will be fine. I think that he probably could have come back sooner but the Yankees treat him like a piece of old paper that will fall apart if you breath on it too hard. As a result his layoff was likely longer than it needed to be and he's got some rust on him trying to come back. They need to take the diapers off of him and just let the guy pitch.

They baby these pitchers way too much so that's not going to change. Let him stay at AAA for the rest of the season so that maybe; just maybe, he'll be someone who the Yanks can count on for 2009.
Most of the pitchers that the Yanks have drafted/signed or traded for (Sanchez) have arm issues so they all need to be babied.

John G.

The Yankees have said they actually LIKE drafting pitchers who are going to need TJ surgery. Their rational is that the surgery builds in a year off for the pitcher.

You keep up with that stuff a lot better than I do Chip. If that's the Yanks' thinking as you say, then they need to do a much better job having a staff in place that can hold the fort until these kids pan out for them. Depending on Pavano, Rasner and Ponson do get the job done down the stretch is a lot to ask for.

The richest team in baseball taking on constant reclamation projects just isn't sitting well with me right now.

Between Hughes injuries, Kennedy pitching as well as Teddy Kennedy and Clay Buccholz stinking up the joint, I am hoping it will be the end of this insane babying of pitchers.

All the Joba rules and treating the 2008 season as Joba's private spring training didn't prevent him from going on the DL when he was needed most.

Treating Kennedy like John Travolta in the Boy in the Plastic Bubble didn't prevent his year from stinking worse than Battlefield Earth

And my Red Sox treated Buccholz like he was the egg in Risky Business... and look how that turned out. He's in AA Portland!

Here's a radical idea:

Have pitchers pitch.
If they are in the show, show that they have earned it.

I have seen a grand total of zero positives of treating pitchers like fabrege eggs. Go out there and pitch some f---ing innings!

Who would have thought that Carl Pavano would have only one fewer win than the combination of Hughes, Kennedy and Buccholz?

You hit the nail on the head Sully.

It's like if their pitch count reaches 100, it's going to snow in Phoenix during the monsoon season.

Why was it that during the Braves heyday with Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, Avery and whoever was the 5th starter on that team never had to worry about pitch counts or arm injuries?

Because Mazzone had them throw and often. He didn't worry about pitch counts!

Agreed John G
Can someone please show me the pitching staff that has had long term success by turning their drawers brown when a starting pitcher hits 6 innings?

This is why I was advocating Joba for the bullpen:
If your starters are only going 6 innings, you had better be sure talented pitchers are throwing the 7 and 8th innings... because if they blow the lead, you only have 2 or 3 chances to get it back.

Granted that point became moot when Wang got injured and Joba HAD to start.
But still, all the babying in the world for a big guy like Joba... and he's hurt when the Yankees need him

It's MASS INSANITY!
People are suscribing to a theory that has never worked and yet is being treated as gospel!

If a pitcher throws 6 innings and keeps his team in the game, it's considered a solid start.

Solid start?

a few years back, that was considered a failure and that pitcher $ucked!

If a pitcher throws 6 innings and keeps his team in the game, it's considered a solid start.

Solid start?

a few years back, that was considered a failure and that pitcher $ucked!

Frankly I blame Rick Peterson for the way teams baby pitchers these days. It's the trend he started with his triplets of Mulder, Hudson and Zito. And those three pitchers were very effective into their early 30s. What's funny is that Leo Mazzone believed in letting guys throw and his triplets of Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux pitched at a Hall of Fame level into their 40s. I don't get why HIS style wasn't the one teams adopted.

The other problem is that with the economy of the game being what it is, where top level FA pitchers command 20 mil a year for 6 years (and where middle of the road pitchers like a Ted Lilly get 11 mil a year for 5 years) teams are so determined to build a stable of their own pitchers that they are overthinking the process in hopes of not making mistakes.

I agree with you guys about these pitch counts. I personally believe a guy is going to get hurt if he is going to get hurt- period. I don't care how much they pitch or whatever, they will just break down when their body is ready to do it. I don't think throwing 95 or 110 pitches has anything to do with it.

Sully: I read a while back on one of your posts that you quit your job. So what are you doing now?

Sorry for the double post guys. The blog seems to have a mind of it's own today.

And by over thinking the process as you say, they seem to make more mistakes than not.

Can I be back and functioning on the blog. It can't be so but here goes.

Hi guys, I tried the new system but Newsday was unable to get my Internet browser to work with the Typekey. So, I read all your comments and had some comments to make but no way to make them.

Looking for a great series with the Sox's, the last six weeks of the schedule looks like a mission through hell with no breathers. The teams that make it deserve it from my thoughts and more than likely will not have enough left in the tank to make a playoff run. How's that for braking your butt to make the playoffs but just how i see it.

want to hear the screwiest thing about the way the Yankees (as one example) treat their pitchers. Because of the limits they set on innings increases from one year to the next (a young pitcher can't throw more than 40 innings than he threw the season before) it actually is possibly forcing them to rush Joba back into action before he's 100% ready.

If Joba were shut down now, or even used in relief, he wouldn't have enough innings to start the season in the rotation next year. They would have to go through all of this all over again.

Hughes right now is at about 50 innings. So the odds are that the Yankees are going to have to use him in relief next season to get his innings where they need to be.

It's so completely backwards to me and to other people. The major complaint that scouts had with the way the Yankees have developed Hughes is that with his strict pitch counts and innings limits the Yankees were setting him up to be nothing more than a 5 inning pitcher. Insane when you consider what he can bring to the table.

Welcome back Larry.

I was wondering if the "Ray-volution" got to you. :-)

Chip,

That's really, really sad if you ask me. These guys are going backwards and it looks like they won't be of any help at all.

John:

I wouldn't go that far. They aren't regressing in terms of their development, just in their pitch counts.

I still think, when all is said and done, in a year (maybe two) we're talking about Hughes and Joba as the anchors for the front of a really strong rotation in the Bronx. The great news about Phil's injuries is that none of them should have long term ramifications on his ability to pitch. He's getting a reputation as being soft and I don't think it's entirely his fault. Cashman won't let him do anything until he's 100% but no athlete is ever 100% and then the first time he gets sore (the normal result of working out) he gets shut down. I think they need to just let him go and throw and leave him alone.

Look, I'm not BLAMING Cashman for being careful, there are cautionary tales all over the place (Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Steve Avery) and it's not like he's the only GM falling into this trap, but it's just hard to watch is all.

John G., Thanks. I felt like a High school kid receiving rejections from his favorite colleges with my internet browser unable to make connection with whatever to make comments. When Mike Rose of Newsday told me the experiment with the typekey was ending. It was music to my ears.

Can't wait to add my two cents to the happenings over the next 3 days. Hopefully, the Yanks can win 2 of 3 but perferrably take 3 of 3.

The Rick Peterson method now has Mulder hurt, Zito sucks and Rich Harden should change his name to oft-injured

Meanwhile Mazzone had Glavine, Avery and Smoltz...
Maddux had his best years with him
As did Neagle, Mercker and Millwood.

And how many pitchers got their careers back on track with him?

My God he made a career of polishing turds and then having those turns sign big contracts with the Yankees

Think Chris Hammond, think Jaret Wright, think Kyle Farnsworth

But better not follow HIS example
Better follow Rick Peterson's whose teams have won fewer post season series than the 2007 Rockies

Sully,

I agree with you 100%.

It baffles me, absolutely baffles me why everyone is so hot to copy the methods of (not just Rick Peterson) but Billy Beane's Oakland A's in general. Everything from their methods of evaluating players to the way they build their ball clubs. Did I sleep through Beane's A's teams winning in the post season? Did my east coast bias cause me to miss their dynasty?

Was Oakland's run in the 90s impressive? Sure. Moreso when you consider they did it without the financial resources of a Yankees or Red Sox. But still, it's not like they were in a power house division back then. The Mariners couldn't pitch, the Angels were in a state of flux with Disney, and the Rangers flat out stunk. And Oakland had a HECK of a club with Giambi, Tejada, Damon, Dye, Chavez, Zito, Mulder and Hudson. But still I don't think anything they did out there was so super that the entire league needed to adopt their methods.

Look, I understand that most teams don't have the financial resources to build their teams the way the Red Sox and Yankees do, but if you're going to build a team, why not pattern what you do off of the Twins instead of the A's?

They have competative teams year in and year out in a much tougher division than the A's and - from time to time - win in the post season.

Sully - I hate to say it, but reference your 1234 post, you are absolutely incorrect. I certainly respect everything you say on this blog, and most of the time i agree with what you think, but not in this case.

There have definitely been shows worse than Battlefield Earth. Cop Rock for one.

Everything else, you are dead on ba!!s accurate.

Dave Righetti was recently saying how the idea of a pitch count absolutely sickens him.

Bossrots,

We'll agree to disagree on Battlefield Earth

Let's not forget how bad that Dennis Miller show on the VS. network is/was (just kidding Sully).

Boss- Dead on balls accurate ay? Nice one....."it's an industry term". :)

Goose is also one who hates pitch counts. Just look at his career and think about how much arm trouble you ever remember him having. That guy pitched between 1 and 4 innings every day and never had any arm trouble I can remember.

Sometimes you are just prone to injury and sometimes you are not.

The Yanks need to bring Joba back and ride him for a bit and stop tiptoeing around so much that they get these young guys scared to death every time they get the slightest cramp or gas pain- it is ridiculous.

Look at Sabathia right now, Milwaukee is riding that guy like he's Secretariat and nobody is worried about his arm.

Jim A,

to answer your question, I was producing corporate videos for Holiday Inn Express (who says dreams don't come true?) and I was offered a chance to produce a documentary about the Harley rally in Sturgis South Dakota.

So I quit the Holiday Inn job (thank GOD) and lived in a cabin in South Dakota for 2 weeks (again, my prayers were answered) shooting dudes on motorcycles and strange characters for 14 straight 17 hour days

I live an odd life

Hey I miss the Dennis Miller show on Vs.
By episode 9 we figured out what worked and what didn’t… and naturally that’s when it died.

For 3 months I got to get paid to read the sports section and make jokes.

The oddest thing is that Versus never officially cancelled it.
Technically it is on hold, even though the set has been torn down, Dennis is doing his own thing and the entire staff is working on other shows.

It’s dead, but on life support.

I have nicknamed the show “Sports Unfilitered with Terry Schiavo.”

Sully,
For your sake I hope Michael Shiavo doesn't pull the plug on your show, but it doesn't look good. Maybe you could find a new host if DM is off somewhere else....who would you pick?

We seem to have lost a lot of regulars from the blog because of the security troubles....hope they come back.

A couple of things:

1. Sully - Battlefield Earth was bad, but the worst Travolta movie was Swordfish.Actually Swordfish, B.E. and Punisher were so bad I can't pick one as being worse than the other

1a: Poor Dennis Miller - comes out as a Republican and the only networks that will give him his own show were Versus and CNBC - two networks that most people don't know exist.

2. The Mets (god it makes me ill to credit them) are showing that you can throw a young guy without ill effects - his name is Mike Pelfry. Now who knows, maybe Pelfrey regresses the way we've seen Justin Verlander and Jeremy Bonderman regress after Jim Leyland rode them to the World Series but maybe he's just a big strong kid who can throw a lot of pitches.

3. I know and you know, that whether the Yankees make the playoffs or not Cashman is going to give the line, "we're building for the long term future of the Yankees." and you know what, that's great. I understand what he's trying to do and that spending 100 mil on a Tex or CC doesn't necessarily work in that plan. But I just don't think the fan base en masse will buy it. Not when the Yankees are asking fans to shell out the kind of money that tickets in the new stadium are going to cost. If I'm spending 100 for 1 ticket I don't want to see a team that's building for the future, I want to see a team win.

4. ML Baseball to use instant replay starting Thursday on HR calls. There are umpires who have already said that they will not call for replays no matter what the situation is.

No poor Dennis Miller
He's made a pile of dough and won a closet full of Emmys in his huge house in Santa Barbara

Sully - a fair point. Though when I say poor Dennis Miller you have to understand that I feel bad for him the same way I feel bad for a guy who plays baseball in Kansas City. Sure compared to his peers his life may not be the greatest but I would sell my left pinky toe to switch places with him.

Chip:
At least Swordfish had Halle Berry's.....ahem...talents on display. That alone makes it better than Battlefield Earth.

I don't feel bad for Dennis Miller, but what's always bothered me about him is the way he finds himself to be so hysterically funny. He can hardly contain himself as he laughs at his own jokes.

I hate to see what ticket prices will be like for next year at the new Stadium. As I said before, it cost me $1200 for 4 seats this year. Like a crack addict, I keep coming back though.....

His OWN jokes?
Jim A... I can tell you from experience that sometimes Dennis Miller is laughing because he is reading the joke for the first time.

I worship at the Dennis Miller altar.

Sully, thank you once again for castigating the "100 pit...", uh I can't even say it anymore.
You know what I'm talking about.
Baseball's latest Siegfried Line, the antithesis to the Mendoza Line.
Baseball's pitching answer to the Bible's perfect number (which just happens to be the number of my all time hero, Mickey Mantle btw).
The magic number that sets off an alarm in every dugout and awakens the pitching coach from his 7 inning narcolepsy and sends him scurrying to the last remaining vestige of ATT's one time monopoly in America, the analog wallphone, to place a call out to the bullpen to warm someone up.

What I wanna know is....
Who the hell ordained this sacrosanct number to be the cutoff for pitchers.....and why 100?
Why not 93?
Or 104?

505 - the person who came up with 100 is Rick Peterson. I actually remember him pulling Zito out of a game where he had a no hitter because he reached 100 pitches.

Sorry that i left the discussion before Guys. My son called from college and I got called into a meeting.

Chip, responding to your 13:58 post. Didn't you say in the post before that one that the Yanks may have to put Joba in the pen to start the season next year and go through the process all over again? or did I read that wrong (which is entirely possible knowing me). If these guys don't reach their innings limit, then they can't progress. To me, that's taking a step backwards.

Recently ESPN Classic showed game 6 of the 78 series. My son was home from school that weekend and we watched it together. He asked me why the Yanks brought in Gossage in the 8th inning and I told him that was how relief pitchers were used back then. They didn't coddle them like they do now; they throw them in there and said "get me 9 outs, or 6 outs, or 12 outs" whatever the case may be.

Hell, in the 73 series, Tug Mc Graw threw 5 innings against Oakland; and he was the closer!

Jim A,

Shot 715 last night! :-)
276, 234, 205.