On the Yankees beat

In spite of all the downplaying by many on here and use of words such as "transition year", etc., this team is expected to win NOW. Most of the old veterans - Jeter, Posada, Mo, Pettitte, Giambi, Abreu, Damon, Moose, etc. aren't here for any rebuilding process. They are here for NOW. Time is running out on the core.

And, it's always disastrous if we don't make the playoffs! It's NY, and like Billy Martin always said, "If winnings not important, then why do we keep score."

I think we're worse off this year because many of the older guys are older yet, and Jorge's shoulder issue is something that I don't think is going to go away for 2008. Also, I think BC has put way to much hope on the "prospect kid pitchers". I just don't see "ACE" when I watch them pitch. I do like Joba, but think he is best suited as a late inning RP.

Just one fans opinions...

Once they start hitting they'll be fine. The starters have to be perfect right now cause as I said on a the other thread, giving up 1 run is a disaster. You just can't be effective pitching like that. there's no run support from this team whatsoever.

I think the Yanks are in better shape at this point in 08 than they were in 07. Even with Arod putting up MVP numbers, we still stunk at this point in 07. Once we get Arod and Jorge back in the lineup, ( 2 of our best RH hitters ), it will give better balance to the lineup and help some of the pressing hitters relax. Plus you know Cano is going to heat up, ( has already started ). The O will be fine, if you took Ortiz and Youk out of the lineup, how would they look? You can just brush off having your two best hitters from last year ( statistically speaking ) not there.

Now to the loaded question. I would not care one bit if the Yanks missed the playoffs. ( been saying that since there was snow on the ground ). I dont know what the big deal is anyway? We made the playoffs each of the past 3 years and were promptly bounced in the 1st round. Is that any more of a successful season than not making the playoffs at all? IF the yanks dont make the playoffs this year, I would view it as an acceptable part of the rebuilding process. Im on board 100%.

Another fan's opinion...

DRU,

How about they don't make the players the next two season in addition to this year? Because right now thats what they are transitioning to.

Nudge -

Not sure you can go that far yet. I mean if the Yankees go out and replace Giambi with Teixeira and/or Andy with Sabathia then that would go a long way to speeding up the transition.

Chip,

Sure would. Still leaves a lot of other holes to fill betwenn now and 2010 though.

We're rebuilding with a $200 million payroll?

I would be fine with that as well Nudge, depends under what circumstances they miss the playoffs. If Joba, Phil and Ian are all in the rotation, pitch decently, maybe around .500 4.50 ERA's. We sign Big Tex and he hits well, and the vets do what they are supposed to do..we win 94 games but miss the playoffs due to other teams having better records, it wouldn’t bother me one bit because that would mean we are setup for a nice run the following years.

Now if the kids all tank this year and next year, the vets suffer severe drop offs in 09, we dont get Tex, opt for CC and he ends up being a bust....I would start getting a little nervous, but would still give it one more year to make a sound judgment on if these moves were the right ones. Now if they dont go deep into the playoffs in 2010...then all this was for nothing and the wrong decisions were made.

At this point in time, nobody can say for sure if the Yanks made the right moves or not.

I think the Yanks can actually use a "playoff miss" as some motivation ... I agree that getting bounced in the 1st round does nothing so maybe a "dose of reality" will get these guys (or at least the ones who remain) a little fired up to make amends next year.

We need at least 1 of the 2 (CC or Tex and preferably both) and probably need a career ending injury to Damon. Also, a stopgap in the OF for next year as Tabata/Jackson are 2 years away (Bobby A on 1 or 2 yr. deal? Don't think he'd go for it though).

2009 could look like this: 1B - Tex, 2B - Cano, 3B - Arod, SS - Jeter, C - Jorge, LF - Matsui, CF - Gardner, RF - Melky (assuming Damon is done ... if not, he goes to LF and Hideki to DH)

SP - CC, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlin and 1 other (Kennedy, Rasner, Marquez, Brackman, etc.)

Only problem is that the hitting is old. Pitching is very young though and that's a good thing. Bullpen would need some overhauling too and just how long can Mo be dominant???

DRU,

The thing you have to fear is landing in Purgatory. Thats where you are just good enough to sniff the playoffs....but not good enough to make it. So the commitment to the future good is always conflicted by the desire to be in the post season spotlight. So you meander through many seasons of first round playoff loses and just missing the playoffs. They need to snap out of that now because its where they are heading.

If as Chip hopes they make those two big signings, they still have to be smart with the lesser signings/promotions so they build around what could be a future core as the old core fades away. Thats the challange thats unique to NY baseball.

My opinion is they were worse off at this point in 2005

In 2005 they were coming off of the shocking 2004 collapse (I can't remember the details of the 2004 ALCS, but if I recall they were startling)

They were 9 games out in early May
They were sub .500 in Mid June

On July 1 they were a .500 team.
Think about that, if they played sub .500 for the month of July (the month with the fewest games because of the break) they would have been sellers at the July 31 trade deadline.

Also that team was older...

Tony womack was starting at 2B
Bernie Williams was breaking down at CF
Randy Johnson was not pitching as advertised (remember he was going to be the answer to Schilling's bloody sock)
Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright were disasters
Kevin Brown was starting every 5th day

The set up men (Sturtze, Gordon, Felix Rodriguez, Proctor, Quantrill, Stanton, Karsay, Buddy Groom) were all bad and OLD

THAT team looked awful.
Worse than this team because they were bad and old.

And look what happened!
They called up Wang and Cano.
They found Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon from the garbage heap
And Giambi found new and not yet detectable inspiration

And my Red Sox had their bullpen breakdown and were starting Matt (Don't call me Pavano) Clement every 5th day

Next thing you know the Yankees and Red Sox finish the season tied but the Yankees are division champs based on head to head.

This team isn't as bad or as old as 2005

YankeeBri...

You broke down the team and quickly passed over the bullpen.
As if blowing leads late and having the team walk off the field with their heads down blowing a winnable game could not POSSIBLY hurt the psyche of a young team.

You say "How long can Mariano be dominant?" and then put Joba in the rotation.

Innnnnnnteresting

Yankee fans who say "the bullpen is overrated" is like hearing Bill Gates say "Who needs money?"

Yeah, right Sully. You don't remember the details of the 2004 ALCS.
And the temperature in Phoenix on the 4th of July is going to be below freezing.
Kidding aside, that was a nice post. :-)

Yankee Bri,

That lineup sounds great....if it were 2006. Problem is you have added Tex only to this years lineup with Jeter, Posada and Matsui aged another year. You also assume Cano gets right and Jorge can still catch...both TBD. Gardner is a glove guy with no power at the plate so you get less than what you get with Damon at the plate, just younger.

Pitching wise you are assuming something that hasn't happened....that Joba can start in the bigs, that one of the "Prospects" can more than a prospect and Hughes can fulfill the promise. Thats the same crapshoot that is being played out this season.

I think there is a strong possibility that the Yanks make Abreu an offer and Im not sure there is that much competing interest to bring him elsewhere. But it should be at less money than he gets now.

Sully,

I don't know if this Yankee management team knows how to be sellers since they never have had to be. So how they perform in that manner would be interesting to see.

If any of you feel so inclined, check out Sweeny Murtri's analysis on WFAN's homepage. here's the link: http://www.wfan.com/Sweeny-Says--What-s-Gone-Wrong/2212137?contentRating=1
One stat from that article: In the 17 games that Posada and A-Rod have been out of the lineup (the last 17 games) Yankee pitchers have given up 76 runs (about 4.5 per game) and have scored 60 (about 3.5 per game).
Morgan Ensberg, Wilson Betemit, and Alberto Gonzalez as the third basemen combined to go 13 for 63 (.206 BA) with 3 extra-base hits (all by Betemit) and 3 RBIs.
Jose Molina, Chad Moeller, and Chris Stewart as the catchers combined to go 7 for 53 (.132 BA) with 2 extra-base hits (both by Molina) and 2 RBIs.

Yankees are not going to go into a sell mode - not when they are trying to sell seats for the new stadium.

Nudge -

I'm sure the Yankees will make him an offer, but I expect he'll get more years elsewhere. He'll also get offers from other teams (Mets to play LF, San Diego, St. Louis, Detroit - also for LF, just to name a few)

Free agent crop outside of Tex is pretty thin for hitters (presuming LAA and Boston pick up the options on Vlad and Manny). I could see the Yankees using Kennedy in a trade to bring in an OF to replace Abreu - maybe Matt Murton out of Chicago or Jeff Francour (it would take more than Kennedy but not all that much) from Atlanta - Kennedy and maybe another AAA pitcher to help Atlanta restock their pitching (Glavine, Smoltz, Hudson aren't getting younger)

So let’s add that up. The guys who replaced A-Rod and Posada over the last 17 games went 20 for 116 (.172 BA) with 5 RBIs.
Now some of the other guys fell off the table during that stretch too, and that’s what made it worse. After starting out hot, Bobby Abreu is just 6 for his last 33. Robinson Cano dug out from a stretch of 11 straight games where his average was in the .150’s, but is still just a sliver over .200 and had just 5 extra-base hits over those last 17 games. Johnny Damon showed signs of life a few weeks ago but is now 3 for his last 30. Before his home run Sunday night, Hideki Matsui had just 1 RBI in the previous 10 games.

This was perhaps the worst week the Yankees have played in years. They lost 5 out of 6 and scored just 12 runs. They sent their two stoppers (Andy Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang) to the mound against the Mets and lost two games—at home—by a combined 18-6. They are a season-high 4 games under .500. They have fallen into the same trap as the last few Yankee teams, and not just the slow starts. It’s the fact that when this team loses, they look old and slow and entirely beatable. But when they win they give you signs of hope. That’s what happened last year.

This doesn’t look like a playoff team right now. But thankfully for the Yankees, the playoffs don’t start on May 19th.

The above post by me is from Sweeny's article.

CHIP

Your credibility is at stake here.Braves are not parting company w/ one of the bright rising stars in Francouer who also has a cannon of an arm .Kennedy is worth alot more than Matt Murton.

I guess you can throw building for the future crap out the window

This season is worst becasue there is no hope .

Last year there was Chase, Tyler , etc and the excuse was those were not the top prospects.

this year you through out your top guns and they HAVE NO WINS BETWEEN THEM zilth , nada , zero, 0 , 0 nothing. (not counting Joba's win in relief.

the awful truth about the lineup remains with out Jorge and Alex's production the squad stinks .

This year you lost both bats but gained in melky somewhat ,

last season

Alex and Jorge was the only hitters,

last season it took an over haul of rocket and joba and some Duncan heroics to help win.

this year there is no back up plan

Chip,

The NL grew wise to Abreu loooong ago. Doubtful any NL teams shows an interest. Especially the Mets since the OF is the one position they have some potential to fill from within.

I didn't gloss over the bullpen ... I said major overhaul. As for Joba, I'd prefer if he was groomed to be Mo's replacement but Yankee brass seems reluctant to do that. If you keep Joba in the pen then that area becomes a strength for Yankees over next few years (and beyond) b/c someone will always step up to be the 7th inning guy. Then, when Joba's the closer you hope you have an 8th inning stud.

The Yanks have a major problem right now ... developing the youth fast enough so that they become reliable pieces and then hope the vets (Jeter, Arod, Posada, Mo) will still be "up to task".

It's a small window and gets smaller every day.

The set up men (Sturtze, Gordon, Felix Rodriguez, Proctor, Quantrill, Stanton, Karsay, Buddy Groom) were all bad and OLD.

Disagree...

I can defend two guys on there.

Gordon and Quantrill.

gordon was good so he had a bad series in the playoffs ?? who has'nt???

Quantrill was over worked by Torre , TOrre ended his run.

Nudge: the Mets wanted Abreau. for god sake they signed Moises Alou

I believe the Yankees are in worse shape this year than last. My main reason for this belief is the core vets are getting older and some have heavy contracts to displace. Now, take into account teams are signing their younger players to longer contracts, no FA market of any worth. We have for years raided the FA market and paid for it with top draft choice selections.

All this being said, I could live with not making the playoffs this year. But we must desolve ourselves of Giambi and Damon if possible. Pick up a pitcher such as CC and a first baseman like Tex. There is no guarantee this will occur but its a chance. I can accept missing the playoffs if the Yankees go with the plan to mature these young pitchers and farm hands like Gardner, Gonzales, etc. Send them out and learn from the OJT. Its not the best way to learn but its our only option.

We must right the process of years ago and now we are paying for it. I believe Jeter, Posada and Mo will be important pieces in the puzzle even as they age. These guys play to win and if the right parts are assembled the winning will occur again.

Nudge - where are the Mets more set to fill from within than the Yankees? We just had a conversation about how players don't get on the radar until AAA. Well I'm looking at the Mets AAA team and don't see anything there to get excited about. Fernando Martinez is their closest prospect and he's in AA.

Ruse -

Francoeur has not been as good offensively as the Braves were hoping. They are thin (for the first time in a long time) in pitching prospects and flush with outfield ones. It could make sense to them to use Francoeur to restock their system.

Also I was not suggesting a 1-for-1 Kennedy for Murton deal. I should have been more clear, but I was thinking that Kennedy could be sent to the Cubs as part of a package that would bring back, among others Matt Murton.

I'm an optimist. The hitting and SP will improve (How could they not?) We will win about 90 games - whether or not we make the play-offs will depend on other teams folding. Next year will be even better - one of the young outfielders will be ready to step up - and will show more power as he matures. Jeter, Arod, Posada and Matsui have at least one more good year left.

It's the year after next, as they all grow older, that I am more worried about.

No playoffs this year, there is no way this team finishes above 3rd in the east, it's Boston or Tampa Bay at the top.

I will answer Kat's question by boring all of you again with a repeat of my position that this team is very slightly better than last year's and is exactly at the same win-loss percentage as that team was at this point in the season, so the odds on making the playoffs should be just fractionally better than last year's.

As for the second part of the question, an acceptable part of what???

When did the Yankees announce they were rebuilding?

There is no part of Yankees management that has labeled this as a rebuilding year.

So 'acceptable part' is a bit of a stretch since there is nothing for it to be a part *of*.

This is something that fan apologists have concocted.

Yankees re-tool on the fly, on the way to their next post-season. Remember?

If you don't agree, call up and ask Hank, Hal, Brian and Joe G. what their goal for this year is.

If they say "rebuilding" I'll accept it.

I think last yr. B/C they are all slumping at once right now. With Arod coming back, and hopefully some people coming out of slumps watch out. If these guys all come out of their slumps at once then watch out for the yanks. Also, if we didnt trade for Johan, then dont make a stupid move for a worse pitcher.

CHIP

Trading Francouer makes no sense whatsoever .Just when they are poised to loose Tex to FA they're going to part with a guy who's driven in 100 runs each of the last 2 yrs and is only 24 yrs old.Don't be absurd.

Come on now Chip - The seats in the new stadium will be sold out regardless of how the team plays this year. Even you know that one!

The real question is - Is this how the gloried Yankee franchise wants to end the last year in the House that Ruth Built??? And, is this how they want to start the history of the "new" stadium next year???