On the Yankees beat

Let's give Rasner the credit he deserves. The guy gets hurt against the Mets last year and fights his way back. While the other starters are serving up hits by the bucket load, this guy is getting the job done. Is it because he hasn't been hyped through the stratosphere, like the big 3, that people disregard him. I like his attitude. He brings his lunch box to work and gets the job done. After 3 good games in a row, a great ERA and WHIP, he deserves a little leeway and RESPECT.

Ankiel: 8 HR's plus 23 RBI

Ludwick: 12 HR plus 35 RBI already

How many do the Yankees outfielders, all of them, plus A Rod have so far?

I know Mark Herrmann writes for Newsday, but I don't think he has paid any attention to the goings on in that Yankees front office the last few months.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spmark225697852may22,0,698022.column?track=rss

Herrmann says that Joba is being converted to a starter simply because that's what Hanks wants.

Are you kidding? Because that's what Hanks wants?

Never mind that every regular on this board knew of the "Joba to the rotation" plan as far back as February. We just didn't know exactly when the plan was going to be executed. It had nothing to do with “Santana remorse” after watching him beat the Yanks over the weekend or the team's slow start.

It's not like this plan and transition has been pulled out of thin air as Herrmann seems to suggest.

It was clear months ago that everyone with any pull within the organization (Cashman, Hank, Hal, Stick Michael, Nardi Contreras, etc.) has said time and time again that Joba was eventually going to be a starter but they couldn't make him a full time starter in 2008 because of his innings cap of 140 - 150 IP.

What’s new about this? Absolutely nothing.

Jeez. If he just read his own newspaper, Herrmann would have known this months ago.

I'm not the type to rip Newsday's columnists because they normally do a good job. But his assessment on this matter is one enormous piece of shoddy journalism. This is the kind of stuff I would expect from George King.

Having strong starting pitching places the team especially and offensive team in a very good position to win. The argument to leave Joba in the 8th inning has apparently been shelved for the alternative to start.

I have no problem withthe move. As we have seen in the last week or so. The SP can't get us in psoition to win or compete. So, I see the sense for the move.

Now which one of the relievers will step up to secure the 8th inning. The likely candidate is Farnsworth who loves his slider and so do our opponents. After him I'd go with Veras. Ohlendorph has been hit of late mainly for getting the ball up. So who knows someone will have to emerge for this to work. But SP is the key and relieve follows. I guess having two of the best relievers sitting in the bullpen and having them not pitch in a week was enough for the Yankee brain trust to move forward with this plan.

The Yanks looked in control last night with good starting pitching. Thanks to Mr. Rasner who I felt should never pitch in the stadium again in Yankee pinstripes. I love making calls which are negative turn into positives for the Yankees.

I thought Mark Hermann made some good points.
Hank has been increasingly ambivalent regarding Cashman's future with the club.
This is a statement about where the buck stops.It's the Steinbrenner's money Cashman plays around with.

Ohlendorf can not be trusted w/Risp he let's to many inherited runners score.Probably comes down to Farnsworth (God forbid )Veras and Ramirez.

let's face it on paper it seems like a good move.

Hank knows if NY is a playoff bound team for 08 they can't get past the 1st round with the likes of Wang(not proven to be money) Pettitte,Mussina.At least Joba on paper might give them a better chance.

Ruse,

Hal has just as much power as Hank does. I know Hank has the biggest mouth of the bunch but that doesn't mean he has the only voice.

Yankee fans (and the media too) always seem to overlook that fact because it's Hank's words that are always plastered across the sports media outlets.

How soon we forget that if the decision was completely up to Hank, Johan Santana would be wearing pinstripes and Phil Hughes or Chein-Ming Wang (in addition to Melky) would be playing in Minnesota.

Hank said several times during the Winter Meetings that he would make the deal if the decision was completely up to him.

It was Cashman (with Hal backing him up) who decided not to make that move and that was the decision that ultimately prevailed.

And it was the right one as far as I'm concerned.

Also, Ruse, the bullpen is going to get a makeover too. Cox and Melancon, among others, are going to make their presence known before the season is over. That transition is in place as well.

If Girardi puts Ohlendorf in a setup role and leaves him there - he will perform much better. He is not conditioned to be a long man or mop up guy.

I like the move and I've certainly made my opinion clear that I think the Yanks need to address their starting rotation above all else to get competitive again. I also believe that a strong rotation, one that can go seven innings per night, makes a bullpen better as they are not dog tired by early June. I think there are enough arms on the roster and in the minors to take care of the bullpen.

Reservations? Sure, as Joba is a great bridge to Mo and let's face it, he has not proven he can pitch like he did in the bullpen as a starter and he also has something he didn't have much of last year: an ERA!
He came in last night with an ERA of almost 3, so he hasn't exactly been a crusher this season and I hope he can translate to a starter.

The good news is if he doesn't make it and is not effective, he can go back to a role he knows he is good at so the Yanks lose very little by taking the chance. If he becomes the anchor of the staff someday in the next couple of seasons then that is awesome, if he ends up being the 8th inning guy again so be it.

Great game out of Rasner last night! Has it clicked with him? I hope this is for real and I hope the Yanks have the luxury of having too many good starters to choose from.

Bomber- You are one connected SOB! Keep that info coming my man and pretty soon I'll be seeing you on ESPN as a "Yankees Insider" or something.

Hello ,

Viper whats up, yeah I feel good today.

I have fielded tons of calls and alot of people have walked up to me and said you knew about this did'nt you because Girardi was over there with you all for awhile. I said no it was'nt like that he did say there will be changes but threw a loop and said by the break.

I was also asked what did I say to Ian because they said he came down and said what a Nice guy good talk.

As for Joba yes he is going into the rotation and the reason it's being done this way is to DOWNPLAY the hype and ease him in.

and this is less pressure on the team to expect both Ian and Hughes to perform and with Rasner earning his keep means we will only need One of the two (kennedy . hughes ) to be in the immediate rotation

Jim A,

I doubt that you be seeing me on ESPN insider.

What some people will do is confide on a level minded avg Joe. Talking with the press is different than talking in community conversation like the press will tell you it's their JOB when talking to an everyday person it is warm Conversation.

Like I said when I first heard the plan last night it makes perfect sense for a few reasons:

1. As good as Rasner has been, do we think he's going to keep it up all season?

2. Kennedy may not be ready

3. Tuesday night may have been a sign of things to come with Mussina.

Given those three items, and given that the guys behind them are either hurt (Hughes/Horne) or struggling (Marquez) or Kei Igawa the Yankees need to find another starter. I still believe they will sign Freddy Garcia, but beyond that, getting Joba in the rotation makes everyone breathe a little easier.

Plus, what's the point in having a stud set up guy if you can't get to him because your starting pitching isn't good enough.

As for who will take his place in the pen - aside from the guys currently up, JB Cox and Mark Melancon should be ready to step in about the same time that Joba is ready to head to the rotation.

The process should take about 6 weeks or so, actually if the team signs Garcia you could have him, Joba, and Hughes all ready to join the rotation at about the same time. Three good right handed arms for the stretch run - talk about a big time trade.

Will it work, I don't know. Only thing I know for sure is that Mike Francessa is going to be one bitter dude this afternoon.

I don't know that I would conclude, along with Mark Hermann, that the switcheroo is all to be credited to Hank. But I do agree that there is at least very strong evidence that it was a switcheroo, not business-as-usual-according-to-the-old-plan.

Remember that only a few days ago Girardi was making his first public statement that Joba was staying in the pen.

Then yesterday he made the first move towards stretching the kid out, and the announcement that he was headed for the rotation, just-as-had-always-been-planned.

We can believe one of two things about that sequence. Either Girardi was telling a completely unnecessary public lie abut keeping Joba in the pen knowing that the plan to make him a starter was just about to be implemented. Or he was telling the truth the first time in announcing that Joba was staying in the pen, but was overtaken by events (whether Steinbrenner or the relentless slide of the team or both) and had to reverse course back to the original notion of moving Joba into the rotatiion.

Other related evidence: Joba said on camera that he had no idea until yesterday that this move was to be made.

It doesn't appear to me as if Hermann was completely talking through his hat, although the reasoning behind a reversal is probably not as simple as Hank-says-so.

I love the arrogance of some columnists - this is part of Joel Sherman's column in today's NY Post:

The Yanks look as if they are going to try to stretch Chamberlain out in the majors. That is not without precedent. Minnesota did it with Johan SantanaJohan Santana , Toronto with Kelvim Escobar, and last year the Dodgers did it with Chad Billingsley. The Yanks will build Chamberlain to three innings, then four, maybe even let him start and someone else, an Ian Kennedy type, share the second half of games. It is possible that when he is close enough to 90-100 pitches that he could be sent to the minors for a start or two to try to refine his third and fourth pitches, curve and changeup.

The arrogance to which I speak comes earlier on where Sherman essentially blasts Girardi and Cashman for not letting the media in on the plan before it happened:

Cashman said there is no looking back, that if there is an outbreak of eighth-inning failures, they will just keep shifting the bodies, but not shift Chamberlain back to bullpen. Girardi, meanwhile, refused to divulge how Chamberlain will be transitioned.

All the better. The Girardi regime so far has the instinct to deceive or mislead. Just a few days ago Girardi spoke for the first time about Chamberlain remaining in the pen all year, when he knew at the time what the true plan was.

So in place of managerial honesty we will surmise how this will go.

VIPER

You are 1 slippery blogger.
Yesterday you said NY doesnt want to rush Cox and Melancon and then before you can take a breath Cox looms big in NY plans.

Like I said Cox will be in NY sometime prior to the allstar game.

Chip -

Hughes will be competing with rasner, kennedy , for the final two spots and as of right now Rasner's spot is his to lose this is fact each win is gaining him more story line and the doubters is what is fueling him from what i was told Hughes and kennedy basically have to battle it out for one spot. Moose's last performance was bad but Andy pitched iffy this year as well , now too many bad performances from moose can spell removal and we have to remember to WAIT and see how Joba is as a STARTER in MLB and not jump the gun and assume he is lites out. there is a difference shutting guys down in the bigs in one at bat the test is their next at bats. if joba performs then your guarranteed 4 solid starters (moose is an experienced starter at the end of the day) and if Rasner hurts himself then would other options become avail . now if the team sign freddy then the need for Ian or Phil becomes less. the leash is shorter on IAN and personally I'm rooting for him based on his attitude not bashing Phil but when the season first started he was walking around like a snob and acted like on when people try to come at him with greetings, while Joba and Ian remained humble even when Ian is in his current predicament. Nice guy!

we have to stop speaking as if things will be placed on a platter for hughes he along with Ian has to EARN it!

Girardi antics was BEST for the team and Joba you have to salute him on the deception becasue if this was out when the team was losing then the pressure and the hype would be extreme

Bomber,

You're right, Hughes will have to fight for a spot. I just think he'll win it. I think the two guys who will be odd men out when Hughes and Joba are ready to start will be Mussina and Kennedy. And if the team adds Garcia too then that's helpful when the shine comes off of Rasner.

I know there are going to be people who are going to be against this move, but bottom line, right now the Yankees' best starter behind Wang is Darrell Rasner - that's scary.

Whatever the reasoning behind the strange sequence of events and announcements that accompany the current decision, I have been in favor all along of giving Joba a chance to start -- partly because he seems to have both the ability and the temperament to succeed, and partly because the team desperately needs a stronger rotation and must to do whatever it takes to have one.

Doing it now is also a plus.
Leadership has to give the appearance
of establishing a situation
in which winning is possible.

Careers other than Joba's are on the line.

The real interesting question is how they stratch Joba out? Use him in relief for 3-4 innings? Then he is available only once every 4 games so you need an 8th inning guy right away. . Or give him a start on limited pitch count? Same thing - who pitches the 8th?

As soon as you start stretching him out he is not your every day 8th inning guy any more.

Merry X-Mas! I have a cold right now, but feel fantastic after last night's news!!!!!

There is no conspiracy here, the Yanks said that Joba would be in the rotation this year, the only reason he was in the pen was to limit his innings. Like Viper pointed out, this was the plan back in the winter. Lets do that math.

April = 11 in
May = 9 in ( should get up to 12-13 before the month is up )

Lets say he hits 25 in the 1st two months. That leaves 4 months for another 125 innings, a typical starter works 30 innings in a month. Looks like a spot on 150 innings to me. Joba should be in the rotation by July 1st at the latest. With the All-Star break, and him working his innings up in June, his innings may be as low as 130, meaning if we make the postseason, Joba will be on track for at least 3 starts. Anyone who says this was a last minute decision is crazy. To me, looks like perfect planning.

Kudoos to the Yanks front office for sticking with the plan.

CANT WAIT TO SEE BIG OL 62 ON THE MOUND FOR 100 PITCHES!!!!

I don't hate the move. But I think it clearly shows panic and desperation on the part of the Yanks. Which is never good.

The bullpen has been taxed very hard the past few weeks. Bruney is probably out for the season. Albaladejo is on the DL. Now we are taking out the 2nd most consistent part of that bullpen which is going to show right away. I do not feel the timing of this is very good.

Rasner just had another great start and appears to be proving himself as a very good 4th/5th starter. Now that Kennedy was sent down and brought back up you need to give him at least one more start before you do anything drastic.

Now what if Joba makes 2 starts in the minors and then comes up to the majors and sucks as a starter? All hell is going to break loose in New York. IOr what if our new 8th inning guy (Farnsworth? Ohlendorf? Edwar?) blows a chance for a win?

I think before this plan to move him in the rotation took place, Kennedy should have been allowed at least one more start and they also should have brought up Giese to see what he has.

Not good Hank and Cash. Not good.

Jon K

According to Cashman Joba is no longer the 8th inning guy. Now it's about using him in spots where he can build up innings.

I think the guy who will get the first crack will be Farnsworth - and in fairness, he's been alright this season. Then Veras, Ramirez, Ohlendorf.

I'm also sure that in some cases Joba will come into close games in the 7th and pitch the 7th and 8th

As far as which kiddos get to fill in the remaining blanks, I'm neutral.

I'm glad we have a plethora of possibilities, and it doesn't matter to me who steps up as long as enough of them do so to provide the team with sufficient arms to move ahead with.

Rasner, Kennedy, Hughes, or kids yet to come up -- makes no difference as long as the blanks get adequately filled.

Come on McCarthy, we have a glut of RP arms...we still have Patterson and Britton waiting at AAA. The yanks are moving Cox, Robertson and Melancon up through the system...we have enough guys for the 8th inning tryouts. What good is an 8th inning guy when the start gives up 6 in 4 innings? We need to see what these young RP arms can do late in the game...that includes current RP on the team like Edwar, Veras ( who was a lights out closer for AAA ) and Ross O. People say that we cant live without Joba in the 8th, but how does everyone know that for sure? Have we given anyone else a shot? The interviews will begin shortly, lets see who wants the ball in the 8th. This is all part of the long term plan,,,,and I for one love it!!!!

Very good Hank and Cash...very good!!!

Especially when it is quite evident NY isn't going to score 960 runs like they did in 07.They need low run ballgames pitched by their starters.It's a risk they have to take.Success is a different story.

McCarthy,

Kennedy will have plenty of time to prove himself. Joba isn't going to jump right into the rotation five days from now. This will probably be a 6-8 week process.

I think you're half right about it being a panic move. If Mussina, Andy, Hughes, and Kennedy were all pitching lights out then there wouldn't be any need for this. If Igawa, Horne, Marquez - represented solid back-ups for the guys currently in the rotation, then this wouldn't be an issue. But as I said, the bottom line is that right now Darrell Rasner is the second best starter on this team - what are the odds he doesn't come back to Earth and hard in the time it takes the Yankees to stretch Joba out?

We've all been in agreement that the Yankees need to go get someone for the rotation. The problem is the names of the guys out there - Bronson Arroyo, Randy Wolf, Jarrod Washburn. Personally I would rather have Joba start than any of those guys, wouldn't you?

I understand the point of the guy who says, "well what about the 8th inning?" Hey, it's going to be an issue, no doubt - and the first time Jose Veras or Mark Melancon blows a game in the 8th the blog and talk shows will explode with people saying put Joba back. But what's the point of having a stud in the 8th inning if you have Mike Mussina or Ian Kennedy or Andy blowing up in the 4th and not able to get to the 8th with a lead. I mean the starting pitching has been so bad that Mo had to pitch down by 10 just to get some work.

DRU -

Open your eyes. You have no idea how any of these AAA "lights out" guys are going to pitch in the 8th spot of a game against a team like the Red Sox.

What we do know right now is that this is what we have gotten out of our bullpen minus Mo and Joba:

Ohlendorf - 5.60 ERA
Farnsworth - 4.05 ERA
Hawkins - 5.57 ERA
Veras - 4.05 ERA
Traber - 4.50 ERA
Albaladejo - 3.05 ERA **DL**
Bruney - 1.59 ERA **DL**

Mariano, Joba and Edwar have been the only consistent bullpen guys we have access to pitch. Edwar's change-up is nasty but if he can't place it, his ERA will skyrocket really quick.

I want Joba to become a starter. I just don't feel its good timing. The Yanks are in a panic and I think it's to soon to do this.

Honestly the Jury is still out we don't knw ohow joba wil l be as a big league starter but one weapon is known even as a starter in big games in the playoffs he will resume his 8th inning role on occasion in the PLAYOFFS.

the 8th inning guy is still very important do not forget that.

Just because a guy is lites out in AAA does not mean he will be the same in MLB

VIPER

You are 1 slippery blogger.
Yesterday you said NY doesnt want to rush Cox and Melancon and then before you can take a breath Cox looms big in NY plans.

--------------------------

Ruse,

You either misunderstood my point yesterday or you are blatantly misquoting me.

Here's what I said yesterday regarding Cox:

------------------------

"Cox will probably make an appearance this season, but I wouldn't bet on it happening before the All Star Break."

------------------------

I said they weren't going to rush him, but that doesn't mean he wasn't going to make an appearance this season.

Big difference.

Ras looked solid last night. Run support helped, but he pitched effectively. Yet, anyone else worried that he does not throw hard, and depends on location ( stating the obvious, i know). I guess, simular to moose, if his location is off, blowing pitches by players simply is not feasible. I hope he is the aaron small of 08.

Yanks need to rattle off a nice win streak here - build on last nights momentum. I know, i know, the huge statement of "the trasition has begun" is certainly overwhelming and just oozing in the streets of the bronx, but yanks have to realize that timely hitting and effective pitching is a good and necessary thing!

And i must admit, as some have deemed him "awful", seeing Duncan get in the game and having the 23 million dollar mess (a.k.a. Giambi - sorry John G, stealing your idea of not calling underachieving players by their real name) in the game was enjoyable to watch. Did Shelly go yard? no. But his on-field energy is note worthy, thats all.

World Series or bust!

Mc,

Those number actually represent a pleasant surprise for this group too!

Looks like Cashman has now played his last card in the game of keeping his job. He better hope it turns up at least a face card.

Now is the moment that most of you have all waited for. Is it to late to advise....be careful what you wish because you just might get it?

I couldn't have said it any better Nudge.

If Joba fails as a starter and the bullpen never recovers the Bronx will be burning.

McCarthy, thats my point, we dont know how any of these guys will react to being the 8th inning guys. I am by no means saying that any of those guys will give what Joba can, they just dont have his stuff...neither do 95% of baseball. What I am saying is that we have about a dozen young power RP arms either with the club, or are about to come up. Not only do we need to see what Joba can give us in the rotation in the next three years, we need to see what these young RP arms can do. Did you know about Joba 12 months ago McCarthy? What if there is another young stud in the stables? That may not be probable, but it is possible ( just wait until you see David Robertson..NASTY! ). The point being, Joba needs to get his innings up to 140-150 this year, so that next year he can get to 170-180, so that the following year he can get to 200 innings. Why is that year so important? Because that's Mo's last year. If Joba has not proven to be a dominate frontline starter, then you move him back to pen as the teams closer after Mo retires. You have to find out what Joba really is, maybe hes the next Beckett, or Johan....would you want those guys in the 8th inning? Hell no, they are more valuable as #1's. What if Joba can be that? He and Wang would be the prefect 1/2. The same can be said for these highly regarded pen guys, maybe they become the next great Yankee closer, again, only one way to find out. Dont think in the short term here, these are the building blocks for the future. There are going to be plenty of bumps in the road, Joba will have some ugly starts, the young guys will blow 8th inning leads, but they have to in order to grow as players. NO player that ever laced em up has been dominate from beginning to end, never happened and never will. Are you unwilling to see what these kids have in real pressure situations?

Give these kids a REAL shot before writing them off..

Mc / Nudge-

Perhaps this transition process is all a coy for Pavano to come back and be our shut-down, top notch 8th inning guy. Wishful thinking or too much whisky?

Nudge / McCarthy...yeah, because the Yanks are looking so dominate right now, are 10 games over .500, in 1st place and looking like a lock to go deep into the playoffs...no need to shake things up, right? Im mean we are pretty set with our starting 5 in the current rotation, no need for improvement there. Right guys????

I don't think this is Cashman's "last card" to keep his job at all.

This was planned months ago as everyone on this board knows. We debated it back and forth so much that our typing fingers developed blisters.

If Cashman was all about keeping his job - he would have dealt Kennedy or Joba last season during the deadline or pulled the trigger on the deal for Santana during the offseason.

Those were the so-called "safe moves" that Cashman decided not to make. One of them certainly paid off big time and the jury will be out on the other one for the next few years.

Personally, I think Cashman and the Steinbrenners have somewhat of a handshake deal but haven't put everything in writing and made things official yet.

And I say that without a pony in this race because I don't care of Cashman returns next season or not.

While I do love Cashman's philosophy of aggressive drafting and the entire youth movement - he has made several blunders and deserves plenty of blame.

I only hope that whomever the GM is next season continues that philosophy of stocking the farm with young talent and rebuilding the core of the team with said talent over the next several years.

That is really the only way this team is going to get younger and build a World Series contender every season.

Miguel -

You are on crack

Dru -

I think we are on the same page. I just don't think we agree on the timing of this. I just wish they waited a little longer. A lot of those young guys you speak of are not ready to contribute up here yet.

Yes, I knew about Joba 12 months ago while he was tearing up A and AA. To say hes going to be a #2 starter before the end of this season is very wishful thinking.

Dave Robertson is actually engaged to a good friend of mine. I'll be going to watch him pitch in Pawtucket this weekend with her. But he is not major league ready as of yet. He just got called up to AAA a few weeks ago.

DRU -

Like I have said. The timing is bad.

The bullpen is hurting a lot right now. The Yanks should not have panicked and gone with what we were doing right now, specially since we have Arod back and Posada close to coming back.

Pettitte is going to rebound soon he won't continue this stretch of terribleness. Wang had his first bad start of the year but he'll come back. Mussina is going to get knocked around from time to time but we really don't expect him to be the old Moose. Rasner shows lots of promise. Kennedy needs a few more starts before we decide to send him back down.

Giese should be brought up and tried out. His numbers in AAA are gross and about equal to what Rasner was doing before he was brought up.

yeah but McCarthy, you are thinking in terms of weeks and months, Im thinking in terms of years. These steps are necessary for the long term healthy of the team. If you agree about moving Joba to the rotation, then when you YOU have started the process? You have to take into consideration that he needs to get to 140-150 innings this year, you also have to consider that it takes about 4-6 weeks to build up arm strength.

From the 8th inning side, we have to throw these kids into the fire. Its not like they need one tomorrow, we still have Farny who has been decent for us. ( not many teams have a lights out 8th inning guy ). Once the other kids come up, you throw them into the 6th and 7th, see what they have and proceed. The sooner the better, even if that means blowing a game or two. We need to see what these kids have so we know what we need this offseason. If we find 2 very good RP arms, there is no need to blow 7M on a fringe vet RP like a Hawkins.

Again, long term buddy,,,

I don't care about whether this team is going to be good enough to win in 2008.

What I care most about is that Cashman and the rest of the organization is now laying the foundation for 2009 and beyond.

This whole project has always been about the "big picture." That's the reason why Hughes and Kennedy are still wearing pinstripes and Joba is moving to the rotation in the middle of the season.

I'm just glad that they have the guts to institute such a plan and go through with it.

It might be a bumpy road this season, but the Yanks will greatly benefit from it down the road.

I'd rather take the hit and lumps this season and build a strong foundation to win over the next 5-7 years.

In my opinion, that is more important than making the postseason in 2008 and going home with another ALDS defeat.

NUDGE

You are spot on about Cashman.This is the Steinbrenner's Endgame.Cashman has been playing w the house's money far to long.

McCarthy, all valid points, but bring up Giese prolongs the process of making Joba a full time starter. That is the #1 task at hand here. I was all for this move no matter what the Yanks record was. The Yanks were in a "damned if they do damned if they dont" situation. If they move Joba to the rotation when they are losing, guys like yourself would say its a panic move. If they move him to the rotation when they are winning, people would call them crazy for breaking up a winning formula. I said back in the winter I want Joba in the rotation even if the Yanks were in 1st place. Im actually happy its happening when it is, there would be more heat for moving him if the Yanks were winning. This is the perfect time innings wise, current starting rotation wise and record wise. I see no issues with the Yanks setting a plan, and following through...

Viper...my brother from another mother...I like your thinking my friend! Me and you should meet up at a game, have some beers and talk baseball.

Dru -

The stage is bigger in New york , with joba even IF he fails as a starter he knows his role where he excelled .

we need a stable rotation until we can search the FA class next season CC in rotation would be a good look

The decision to stretch out Joba is a good one. The game is 9 innings long, The starting rotation sets the foundation for 5,6+ innings to put us in psoition to win. As of now the SP has been inconsistent at best. Many teams do not have the offensive power to overtake good starting pitching in the last three innings of a game against effective relief pitching. The reverse is the same for these present Yankees. We can't seem to come back from deficits as the back of our baseball cards indicate. So, lets have the best starting foundation possible and let the transition move forward. Find out now what cards that we are holding. The Yanks may have 8th inning by committee if there is no one who can step up . This may work out. Patience is what we need and more good starting pitching. A little competition amongst teammates is a good thing.

As a Red Sox fan, I couldn't POSSIBLY be happier than to see Joba moved to the rotation.

He'll be coddled for 5 or 6 innings a start... keep the game close.
And in the 7th inning when they bring Dweedle Dee and Dweedle Dum out of the bullpen, rally.

My father taught me a lesson when I was a kid which was "You don't solve a problem by creating a problem."

When Joba's leads are being blown in the 7th and 8th and Rivera goes on pace to make 100 appearances, you'll be saying "Why can't we get an 8th inning guy?"

But by ALL MEANS take him out of the bullpen!
It's music to my ears!

Yeah Sully, and you were the same guy that told us you wanted to trade Lester, Ellsbury and Bucholtz...shame on you Sully, you're not helping...lol

I don't get where some of you are getting that this is Cashman's last play to keep his job.

Have I been the only one reading quote after quote where Cashman and Girardi both said that the endgame was to make Joba a starter but that they weren't going to put a time table on it? As someone pointed out earlier, if you look at the innings he has pitched this would be the logical time for him to work into the rotation without exceeding his innings cap. It was pointed out last night - even before we found out that this was the plan - if the Yankees EVER wanted Joba to start they had to get his innings up this year. If he relieved all year long, even if he appeared in 80 games - then he would only have between 80-90 innings, meaning next year he would only be able to throw between 110-120 innings.

As for the 8th inning - did anyone know for certain when Joba came up he would be effective in that role? I sure didn't. So what says that some of these other unknowns with limited/no track record - Veras, Cox, Melancon, Ramirez, Ohlendorf - can't do the same? Will they go out there and blow people away the way Joba did last season? No, of course not. But then again Joba this season couldn't even live up to the bar he set for himself last season.

Again, I'll leave it with two questions -

1. would you rather see Joba start or see the Yankees trade for garbage like Arroyo?

2. What's the point in having an 8th inning stud if your starters are only going 4 innings and can't get you the lead late?

I was dead wrong about wanting to deal Lester because I was smitten with Santana.

However I had to argue with nitwit Red Sox fans at the beginning of last year who were saying "Papelbon is being WASTED in the bullpen!"

I'm telling you, as I said before, Yankee fans saying "relievers are overrated" is like hearing Jessica Alba say "looks aren't everything."

Keep something else in mind - this isn't happening tomorrow. The Yankees will have about 2 months to sort out the 8th inning. Until then, I'm CERTAIN that if the Yankees have a lead in the 7th you'll see Joba for the 7th and 8th. It will serve the dual role of stretching him out and bridging to Rivera.

Chip, I will remember your post when you start complaining about the bullpen blowing leads in the 7th and 8th innings

You are going to have Farnsworth, Ramirez, Hawkins and Ohlendorf in the 8th.

1 bad inning late in the game can derail 6 good innings early in the game.

But I forgot... it's easy to develop middle relief
Which is why the Yankees have had such steller set up men since 2000

(Will Karsay, Quantrill, Hammond, Heredia, Gordon and Farnsworth be in the new monument park?)

Sully

All excellent points.

What if by an act of "GOD" Kennedy turns his season around someone of the current starting 5 will be out of a job

Sully -

I know we've talked about it before, but I'm sticking to my guns. Papelbon and Joba are two different animals. If Joba were closing like Papsmear - I would leave him there. But with Rivera around for the next three years there's no sense in not seeing what Joba can do as a starter.

What the Yanks are doing in the pen is taking advantage of the strength of their minor league system.

That strength is young pitching - and more specifically, it's setup men and closers.

Cox, Ohlendorf, Melancon, and Sanchez all have nasty stuff and have been bred to be setup men or closers.

Sanchez could get an opportunity to start next season, but he's already been told his role this season will be to prepare as a reliever.

Not to mention the starters who may get that chance as well like Horne and McCutchen.

Joba is not the only guy in the organization who can fill the 8th inning role. There are several other arms in the system that have been and are going to be groomed for that role.

Sully -

Let me ask you this. If Keith Foulke hadn't gotten hurt and Papelbon was still setting him up last year wouldn't you have been SCREAMING for him to go into the rotation over Julian Tavarez?

DRU,

You miss the point. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Bottom line is as much as you value the starter as more inmportant than the setup guy, you need both. So changing a successful one into a question mark may appear like the thing to do when you want to "shake things up", but its really just CYA for the GM. Now he needs for TWO players to prove the can do a job they haven't previously done. They need Joba to prove he can be a starter AND some mystery pitcher to prove he can be a setup man. All the while having Joba as neither for a period. Should be interesting.

That may sound like shake up to you.....to me it sounds like someone was hit in the head with something.......probably thrown by Hank!

Sully,

Isn't that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum?

Sull...Karsay, Quantrill, Hammond, Heredia, Gordon and Farnsworth all FA pickups. Big difference, there are a glut of young RP arms that were closers in college and have been groomed for the pen since day 1. These young men deserve a crack at it or else why did we waste high draft picks on them?

Chip nailed it, Paps and Joba are two very difference scenarios. Paps was made a closer, it was either that or Timlin. Also you had a great rotation already with Beckett. Once Mo retires, then we can revist this. Its not like we havent won games when Joba wasnt there,,,remember him going to see his father? Or do you remember him blowing a game against Delucci? He is not superman, there will be a drop off...by how much remains to be seen.

Nudge, you act like this came out of nowhere...where have you been???

Nudge, by your standards, Joba should never be in the rotation and we are set for the next decade in our rotation.

Nudge -

As I've said now a few times, if the choices to improve the rotation are an unknown in Joba or a known Arroyo - I'll take the unknown who has a chance to be special over the known who at best will be mediocre.

Regarding the 8th inning. When he was called up there was no way of knowing how dominant a relief pitcher Joba would be. He had no more or less of a track record than guys like Veras, Ohlendorf, or the guys down in the minors today. What's to say one of them can't fill the role?

For all the people who say this is a bad idea and that Joba should be in the pen all year long....what is your plan for next year?

You know when Moose and possibly Andy are both gone?

Wang
?
?
Ian
Phil

I know everyone is so sure CC can be penciled in, what if he resigns with Indians or another team? What then, start Joba off in the pen then go through the same process of everyone saying..LOOK HOW GOOD HE IS THERE, WE NEED AN 8TH INNING GUY! We need to take the hit sometime, what better time than now?

So to all the Monday Morning GM's...please tell me your plans for this year and beyond...make Joba the 8th inning guy for the next three years? That's how you would use this kid? REALLY?? And if I see Freddy Garcia, Randy Wolf or Derek Lowe in that post, Im gonna puke.

Ill give you one free be to start you off..Ben Sheets.

DRU,

Haven't you read the papers when 10 days ago Cashman was INSISTING that Joba was in the pen. I guess someone would him feel the heat so that he could see the light, huh?

By my standards you have to be a starter to be a starter. Simple concept. Start....win....continue to start. That was blown up in ST when Joba started....got bombed.....was moved to the BP.

But you should be happy now...its what you think is right and we shall see, correct?

Oh and this is very short term thinking....not long term at all. This is not a part of next years plan....its this years plan.

Ruse,
If Kennedy turns things around and the Yanks have too many starters (quoting Joe Torre "that would be a nice problem to have") then they can make Rasner the long man out of the 'pen. Ohlendorf is not well suited for that role and I think he has more value in other places.

Seriously though, do you really see the Yankees not needing at least six starters for the rest of the year?

Also, I don't understand why folks are so worked up over this Joba thing. If he fails, he fails and he goes back to something he knows he can do very well. There simply is no risk in that.

I bring up the transition year again because Viper alluded to it in his earlier post. This team is being built for 2009 and even more likely 2010. The Yanks cannot build a team for one season because they want to open a new stadium or close an old one with a championship. Nobody will remember that, but people will remember it if the Yanks win a few world series' with a "dynasty" type team that was built from the ground up and for the long haul.

The short term approach has not worked and the Yanks got as much as they could out of the late '90's teams by replacing old parts with either older ones or guys who didn't fit well so it's time to shrug off 2008 if necessary and look toward the future and make the decisions that benefit those teams, not the current one.

Papelbon started closing in 2006 before Foulke went on the DL.
I love Foulke but he was shot after the 2004 post season.

I wanted Papelbon in the pen in 2005 and I wanted him in the pen in 2006 BEFORE Foulke went down.

And, even though a lot of people like to have revisionist history, going into 2007 the rotation was a HUUUUUUGE question mark for the Red Sox.

Beckett's ERA in 2006 was over 5 and he looked like another NL pitcher who couldn't cut it

Dice K was an unknown
Schilling had a good 2006 but he was turning 40
Lester had cancer
Wakefield was 7-11 and turning 40

There wasn't a single starting pitcher the Red Sox could point to going into 2007 and say "Well OBVIOUSLY we can count on him."

Going into spring training the 2007 Red Sox rotation made this year's Yankee rotation look like the 1995 Braves.

And everyone said "Papelbon is young, he has ability, everyone else is a question mark" blah blah blah.

And I said "With a questionable rotation you NEED stability at the end of the game."

Now with everyone saying this is a transition year, I ask this...
Do you REALLY think Mariano is going to be a God for the next 15 years?

Why not groom his replacement? And with a shaky rotation, doesn't it help to have the 8th and 9th secure?

Oh well, my thoughts are known.

I wanted Papelbon in the bullpen when all "logic" said the rotation.

And making the 7th and now the 8th innings for the Yankees a minefield is reason for all non Yankee fans to pump their fists and say YES!

Nudge:

Here is Cashman's quote from May 18 courtesy of the NY Post:

Cashman said the team is exhausted from addressing Chamberlain's status.

"He's going to go in the rotation at some point," Cashman said. "We'll let you know when. He's in the bullpen right now. We have a plan for Joba. We will let him know first."

JIM A.

I don't see Rasner in that role .He's been to good and I wouldn't mess w/ him.

Either Kennedy or Ohlendorf will get shipped out depending on what they do in the coming weeks.Enter :Cox and maybe Patterson.

Nudge -

Spring training means nothing. If it was a prelude to what you could expect in the regular season then Cano would be tearing the cover off the ball, Wang would be getting lit up on a daily basis and Wilson Betemit, Shelley Duncan and Morgan Ensberg would be the best bench in baseball.

The bottom line on Joba is you say he hasn't proven he can be a starter - well the fact is that he's started for far longer than he has relieved.

Jim A,

I keep getting back to this....if the team was truly thinking about a transition year and not amped up to HAVE to make the playoffs then Joba would ahve been a starter from the gitgo. Now thats long term thinking. But no, smartypants had to try to walk this fine line of using Joba in one role and then switching him to the other at "the right time". Well that right time never occurred since the others starters bombed and no one stepped up to fill his role as the setup man....all the things that Cashman talked about when this bizarre plan was revealed in ST.

So he proved himself too smart by half and now if Joba stinks it up...or is even just average....say he goes 5-5.....and the pen is blowing every third oppurtunity......how does that help in 2009? Whos's the setup guy in 2009? And please don't answer with the names of 4 pitchers that haven't thrown a pitch in the bigs yet...thats what got the team to where it is now.

Chip,

After Hanks outburst we got this from Cashman.....

"Joba's staying in the bullpen right now," Cashman told Newsday on Monday. "That's where we're at. [Putting him in the rotation is] not something that's going to happen here early on, and [Hank] knows that. We've talked about it. I don't know what set him off."

Is a 1/4 of the way into the season early? You be the judge.

I don't agree with Nudge about one thing and I do agree with him about another.

Bringing up spring training stuff is like bringing up a cellist tuning their cello.

It doesn't count. It's practice.

But I do agree with the simple point of What happens if Joba doesn't cut it as a starter?

Do you shuttle him back and forth?
I know that's easy to do in Fantasy Baseball and XBox, but this is an actual human being with confidence right now.

Ask Phil Hughes and his fake injury how easy it is starting in the bigs.

You could find the perfect combination of a starter adjusting to a new role while the bullpen blows leads in the 8th inning.

And oh yeah, the bullpen plan continues to be "Mariano will be able to do this forever."

Again... by all means... do it

Nudge -

You are completely off base. What the Yankees are doing with Joba is not a new concept - Twins did it with Santana and Liriano, Dodgers did it with Billingsly, Red Sox did it with Lowe, Jays did it with Escobar and McGowen.

As for your comment "And please don't answer with the names of 4 pitchers that haven't thrown a pitch in the bigs yet...thats what got the team to where it is now." Well how many pitches did Joba throw in the bigs before he was brought up last season?

And what part of Cashman's quote that you posted says Joba wasn't going to start this year. He's not in the rotation early on. He likely won't be in the rotation until around the All-Star break. But for him to be a starter any time BEFORE late August then the Yankees have to start stretching him out now.

Chip,

Please show me the quote where I sadi Joba wasn't going to start this year. I think thats a quote you invented.

Lunch....then boat time....then time to play ball....keep the fires burning on this one. It should be worth lots more discussion!

Sully -

John Smoltz, Derek Lowe, Kelvim Escobar, Rick Agulillera, Dennis Eckersley - just a few guys who have suffled back and forth from starter to reliever

And what's more, if it doesn't work out. Lets say Joba is a disaster as a starter this season. Wouldn't that be nice to know before going into a winter where you're looking at losing two of your starters? If Joba is a solid pitcher then the Yankees only have to worry about finding 1 starter. If he stinks they need to find two.

What's being missed in all of this is that Rasner pitched another good game and held a team that kicked our a$$ the night before to no runs. He's throwing strikes and mixing up his pitches quite nicely. He's been a real pleasant surprise and he seems to be continuing his success in the minors.
Maybe the Yanks are making this move now with Joba to coincide with the return of Karstens. Wasn't the plan for Karstens to be the long man out of the pen? If so, there are a number of guys out there that can throw one decent inning (the 8th) aren't there? Maybe Ohlendorf gets the nod cause he can let it fly for one inning and not have to worry about throwing 2, 3 innings every time he gets the ball.
A lot of you guys are right in saying that this was the plan all along with Joba.
Right now, i just want to see the Yanks string some wins together and get on a bit of a roll here.

Sully - as bad as the Sox rotation was in ST last year, the pen was worse. To use your analogy, "You don't solve a problem by creating a problem." The Sox did just that and it turned out great. They had an issue in their rotation and at SS. They traded Hanley for Josh, Hanley is the best SS on the planet ( sorry Derek and Jose ), Josh has now won two WS. The Sox have yet to fill that SS spot, so in the end, it turned out pretty well. Nobody is saying Mo will be there for another decade, just 3 years. The Yanks can use that time wisely to either find a replacement from within, or make a trade. Maybe Huston Street? The point being, there is plenty of time to figure out who the closer will be. Until that time, it like a college football team with open tryouts. That competition is a great thing instead of investing money in a vet who fails, that kind of move carries more risk due to the contract needed to get a guy like that.

Nudge - Joba has been a starter his entire life until late last year. The yanks needed a RP arm and gave him a shot, looking back, it wasnt worth all the headaches it has now caused. If they let him be, he would have been in the rotation already. The only reason he was in the pen this year is because of the innings cap, part of that was due to last year's callup. ST had nothing to do with that decision. Come on Nudge, I didnt need to tell you that.

Like Jim A pointed out, this is a low risk move, if he fails over the next couple years, you have your closer after Mo retires. But IF, just IF he turns out to be a beast, the true #1 we've been missing for some time, we will look back at this and have a good laugh.

The article prooves 100% what Brian and Girardi has stated to me.

Dealing with the press is much difficult.

Mark the reporter should have known damm well thank hank had nothing to do with it in full.

The timing was perfect becasuethe fans (myself included ) was in panic mode. add to hte fact that Rasner played a big roll in this as well his performance which already so far stabilize a good part of the rotation. now if Kennedy and Hughes is lites out then it is a good problem . Kennedy has the advantage because he is here now all he has to do is perform and do it with such numbers that the org will not feel it would have to rush back Phil.

here is another important note on Rasner

while unlikley if he continues to pitch well enough and a team like Clev falls he may be requested in a trade package that is a long shot but not impossible.

If the team decides Rasner is a winner then it's his spot to lose and lets say kennedy is Ok not great and hughes returns lights out then kennedy would be marketable