On the Yankees beat

Well, that's not good.

It could be worse, though, Wil Nieves could still be the Yankees backup catcher instead of Jose Molina.

I am very concerned about Jorge. They don't know what is ailing him. Hopefully something will be cleared up tomorrow one way or another.

REPOST -- didn't realize there was a new thread.

I get frustrated when I read posts about how great it was not getting Santana so we could have the fun of watching these kids develop into a new dynasty, as if that were somehow guaranteed.

The fun of watching them flounder is not all that captivating, IMO. I know the Pollyannas of the list will pop up and tell me that this is just a phase, blahblahblah be patient blahblahblah, but I find the assumption that all we have to do is be patient and this pumpkin will turn into a royal coach NAIVE. And not at all reassuring when it comes as a knee-jerk reaction to every disappointment.

I am not afraid to say that I found Kennedy's and Hughes's latest performances thoroughly disappointing.

And, like Michael PTRS, I will certainly consider it a very bad bargain if we waste the last good years of some great, great veterans pouring too many hopes into the longterm possibilities of guys who turn out not to be ready for prime time. If this drags on, not for a few months but for a couple of years, I for one will definitely wish they had been sent to the MLB equivalent of boarding school elsewhere.

And I wish we could agree that the overused phrase about how it's 'just a bump in the road' would be strictly reserved for something that is OCCASIONAL

If it becomes habitual it's just a bad road.

Some of us have seen plenty of bad road already.

( home now )

Well…its seems as if some people only have fun watching the Yanks win, and cant really stand to look at the TV during a loss. How fickle some fans are…spoiled rotten in some cases. Yankee fans just cant stand to see a single season without the playoffs, or even ( GASP!!!! ) a losing season? ( I KNOW,,,BITE MY TONGUE!!!! ). We’ve all seen the “Bad Road”, without risk there is no true reward.

I wonder sometimes...if my friends, co-workers, acquaintances or even family members would be such great "Yankee Fans" if say the Yanks were the Pittsburgh Pirates. Would there be the same passion for the team? Would blogs be filled with communities of individuals? Would as many Jerseys and Hats be worn? Would they love watching baseball as much? I wonder.....

Dru,

Right on brother!

Dru, I doubt if you are old enough to have been a faithful Yankee fan through as many long miles of bad road as I have.

Try not to imagine that passion for Hughes is the same as passion for the Yankees.

It's amazing what a bad game does to even the calm voices of reason in this forum.

I'm not at all worried about Hughes or Kennedy. I think we need to let things play out for awhile before we jump to conclusions.

Jeez, they will be fine. Let's not get crazy.

Jim A said it very well earlier. Last season, this team had a starting rotation of Pettitte, Igawa, Rasner, and Pavano in April.

Diane, I can't believe what I'm reading from you. Sigh.

Diane,
I can certainly understand your feelings right now. It's hard not to react that way if you've been a Yankee fan through the lean years of the franchise which for me was the 80's. We saw a lot of "blue chip" prospects come through the system and none of them ever seemed to work out. Time and time again we were told that things would be different this time and each time they've managed to win us over and then we were left with disappointment.
However, things are a little different this time (I keep telling myself) because it seems all of baseball agrees that there is something special about these three kids so my hopes are a lot higher and I've convinced myself that this is a learning or transition year so I will do my best to take the losses and setbacks in stride.

I'd like to offer a new rule for us "regulars": We shall not be held responsible for anything we post less than 4 hours after a Yankees loss :)

As the great Billy Martin said "Losing is a bitter pill and I refuse to swallow it".

What will determine whether both or either of the kids are successful is plain and simple. Can they consistently throw strikes. The scouts get all hung up on the STUFF. STUFF 6 inches of the plate isn't worth diddly. Early on its apparent that both these guys have problems being consistently in the strike zone. When they are, they usually win. When they aren't you get what you saw today. Thats why I predicted they would be up and down this season and OK at best. Until they show that consistency there is no reason to expect any better. Wheres the pitching coach? Wasn't he the saviour because he "knew the kids".

Still its only 8 games and the month of May could bring a different perspective.

DRU,

I didn't miss your point like some of the others have.

The Yankees have always had a high percentage of "fans" who only follow them when they are winning. Just like the Red Sox have developed a huge fan base since...oh, about 2004 or so.
There are however, a great many true Yankee fans like I consider myself, having been a fan since 1971 who love this team no matter what.
I come here because there are many more just like me here, even if we get a little too emotional at times. The team is 4-4 and there are 154 games to go. There are a lot of good times and some bad times ahead. Strap yourselves in and enjoy the ride!

I'm a "young Yankee fan", but I've been a proud Yankee fan since '86 (as a two year old). My badge of honor, I still maintain, a framed poster photo of Mattingly, Winfield, and Henderson. I was and still am a BIG Henderson fan. More than any other player, I await his HOF induction. Because of my youth, it's hard for me to say I really had to deal with losing, I didn't really comprehend it all in the 80s, I was a younen. I think I'd pass DRU's test though. I mean, I'm a Yankee, Ranger, 49er, Bulls fan. Those last two are a testament to just how great Jordan and Montana were. They hooked me, but at the same time, I can say that most of my friends that used to be Bulls fans have since either adopted the Knicks because they were the local team or the Nets because they were the successful local team. I've stayed devoted throughout.

I think being a Bulls fan actually makes going through the Yankee Dynasty easier. I've been through the Dynasty years and then had to deal with some terrible down years. In a sense, the Yanks since 2000 are kind of like the Bulls of 93/94 and 94/95 without Michael. Good enough to make the playoffs, but not good enough to win it all.

Di: Clearly you know I won't agree about Hughes or the Santana trade and I have a feeling we'll see a bounce back from Kennedy against the Royals.

Chip: I don't know if you ever caught the write-up I put on there for you, but hopefully you can catch it on the previous thread. To further support what Gardner can do, just look at what Gathwright

I've been following the Yankees for over 50 years and am happy to weather the rough patches ahead, as long as we stay the current course. We have had that many failures with imported talent over the years. I'm happy to watch the kids develop. I don't think Santana won his last start if we are going to look at things on a game to game basis. I know I'll enjoy the season whether it turns into a championship or not.

Well this is not looking good and I can see already where this is going ...

First ...

Why isn't Brian Bannister with the Mets? Omar, who spends the offseason in Palestine (you can look it up on the Internet), must not have liked his All-American father from Arizona State, who taught his son to pitch so well. How do you trade Kazmir and Bannister? What's wrong with this picture? Why trade Bannister considering his DNA? He's excellent!

I said "No to Posada" I said "Get Bard and Piazza and rotate them with Molina." I like him but not for the money and years. I could see Posada at 1B. He was signed at a 2B, you can look it up. He played 1B vs the Mets in the early interleague games ...

I said get Eckstein, let A Rod go and rotate Cano and Eckstein around the infield. I said Eckstein would be insurance at shortstop for Jeter.

Can you see how this 200 million dollar boondoggle is going?

It's burning already ... like the US Dollar, it's really beyond help right now. As the Euro, oil and gold spell out reality for the Dollar, Bannister, AJ Burnett and Hallady are also spelling out reality.

If Cashman is smart, he will dump Giambi, Igawa, Farns, Damon, Godzilla and Abreu ASAP. Leave the 16 year olds in the Caribbean. Find All-American kids like Eric Byrnes. Go to UCLA. Find a Hunter Pence. It's not that hard to find the talent.

Colorado does it. Look at Helton and Hawpe and Holliday and their shortshop, Jeff Francis ... they know the kind of team the people in Colorado Springs want to see ... They're smart. They're moral. They appeal to their fan base. Unlike the New York Yankees ... we need a young, cohesive, nice looking, moral on and off the field team. We need esprit de corps. We need unity. We don't have anything remotely like that.

I was so disappointed last year ... so up and down with the team but not this year ...

I can see where this is heading already ...

The goal is to Win the World Series. That is impossible this year.

Time for Cashman to leave and take his broken toys with him.

Leave them in Diaper/Viper's cot.

I notice Rick and Delancy aren't here to clean Viper's lil' clock, I guess that's good for him!

It's only a few games but I am already very disappointed. Yes, there is a lot of talent and we will win let's say 88 games or so, but that won't be enough. Not this year.

Look at your great team now Viper!

Jeff Passan, the famous baseball columnist and TV baseball guru just published a story on Jeter and SS ...

I quote ...

"Ultimately, such deification comes to roost, and to think the 33-year-old Jeter, with more than 12 seasons at the most demanding position, wants to continue playing shortstop deep into the decade is troublesome. Try center field. Settle at first base. Anything to keep him upright, which he has managed to stay with stunning regularity thus far .."

Wow ... center field? Where did we hear that before?

Hmmmm ...

Guess I am not the ONLY one who is crazy.

Viper why not write Jeff Passan, who would wipe himself with you baseball knowlege wise, and tell him how "No one respects him ..."

You petty, coward ...

It's what, the second week of the season?

Caspian

I agree 2nd week of the season and all the prognosticators are all in a panic.The Yanks are 4-4 .The Yanks looked tired yesterday.Sloppy defense all the way around .Kennedy and Hughes are not to be judged just yet.Let's wait till late May-June 1st then the gloves come off.

Best thing is to put Posada on the DL .Molina and Moeller can handle it for 2 weeks.

CHIP

Any idea what happened to Claggett and Whelan ? Injured?

dru, can I be your friend?

OK, BLUF, stop panicking!

Can someone please give me the name of one pitcher in the history of the civilized universe of the game of baseball, who actually won every start during the course of a season (minimum 20 starts).

Diane, were you thoroughly disappointed after Hughes' first start? Did you actually expect him to go 30-0 this year? Do you expect Pettitte to suck every start, much like he did in his first start. Last year, the Yankees bullpen won 29 games, and we've heard on this blog alone how terrible the bullpen was. If they get anything close to that this year, and Wang wins 17, Pettitte wins 14, Hughes wins 11, Kennedy wins 9 and Mussina wins 8, that adds up to something close to contention. Throw in a few wins from a spot starter here and there, and perhaps factor in 10-12 starts from a 4 pitch Chamberlain after the break, and you have the potential to win 94-96 games. I know that all may be a pipe dream, but I'm just saying 8 games in to the season is certainly not the time to panic. Caspian's absolutely correct - it's BARELY the second week of the season.

And Ant, another remarkably long post (cut and paste) that I didn't read but did notice as I was scrolling down a statement about winning the WS being impossible. You couldn't be more wrong. Granted, many things have to go right for that to happen, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. But, and I will be the 739th person to say this, Eckstein and Hamilton would not have been the answer. But keep sticking to that story - you may convince someone that it's true - or at least keep convincing yourself.

This team will be in contention throughout the season and could most definitely win the East - and perhaps go deeper in the playoffs than most people think is possible.

What is hysterical is people who think that admitting to disappointment in two performances equates to panic.

Yes, I admit that I was thoroughly disappointed in the most recent performances of Kennedy and Hughes, and IF, as one of their groupies opined, it would be reasonable to expect Hughes to take two years to get a grip (until he is 23 or so), THEN I will be sorry we didn't 'do the deal'. As I said, though at greater length, before.

We are in for an interesting season here if anytime anyone admits to disappointment in the performance of one of the troika there is an exhibition of hysteria like this.

Since '73. Through ups and downs.

During which I have never mistaken unconditional raves for any one player with unconditional support of the team.

Sorry, that should have been 'for', not 'with', in my last sentence.

Hughes had a bad game, no way around it. He's not making excuses and neither should we. What I will point out is that Brian Bannister - who is usually very good at throwing strikes, was also having issues finding out what was a strike and what wasn't, so maybe it wasn't ENTIRELY Hughes.

Again, considering he is the second youngest player in the majors, I would caution not to live and die with each start. Just because everyone (including me) thinks he's going to be a really special pitcher doesn't mean he's never going to have a bad game.

On other issues - Posada has a dead arm - pitchers tend to go through it from time to time and the only cure is rest - so he's probably headed to the DL with Chad Moeller getting the call up.

Also, Alberto Gonzalez was pulled from last night's game in Scranton and is expected to be with the Yankees either today or tomorrow. I guess the idea of Betemit being a servicable short stop was short lived. We all know the deal with Alberto - he's Rey Ordonez in the field, unfortunately he's also Rey Ordonez at the plate so I wouldn't expect much pop from him. So that's a lot of offensive drop at Catcher (Posada to Molina) and SS (Jeter to Gonzalez) which means guys like Damon, Cano, Alex, and Giambi have to hit.

bosst,

I agree with you -- and in fact have said all along -- that I expect this team to be in contention and believe it should make the playoffs.

It is as good as (in fact is much the same as) the team that wiped up the league throughout the second half of last season, and there is no reason to suppose that it should not be able to make an excellent showing this year.

When I expressed that thought before someone responded that the opposing teams are just better this year and so it might be tougher to do. Don't know enough about the opponents current teams yet to have an opinion on that. But if the opposition is about as strong this year as last year, we should definitely see October baseball in the Bronx.

Ruse -

No idea where either of them are. I think I remember Whalen being hurt towards the end of last season - maybe they are at extended Spring Training.

Wow, Diane, I tried to post the following but got rejected. I'm glad I did because I think I misread your earlier sentiments. That said, this is what I tried to post - no hard feelings, obviously...

Diane, the "bottom line up front" in my post was not meant for you specifically - it was meant for the collective group who seems to be panicking. I never said you were panicking - I was merely asking you a question about your level of disappoint. Keep in mind that I was a huge proponent of the Santana deal, and when Kennedy came off the table, I made a comment that they need to do this as Hughes is a questionmark and Melky is expendable - which had DRU jumping down my knickers so effin fast it was painful. So it's not as hysterical as you may think. But we all need to get used to that disappointment because your troika is not godlike and may turn out to be Wilson, Pulsipher and Isringhausen. Or any other number of can't miss troikas. That said, the Yankees still have enough guns and mixture of players where they can certainly be successful and grow at the same time.

only one person brought up the real and that issue is Posada. He got the big cntract and now look thsi is food for the people who said why over pay a catcher in that age braquet. Second Santana lost his second game due to low offense. right now the jury is still out BUT if I had to make the trade I would have done so why ?? you need a true anchor. Hopefully My man hughes would come through but with pettite and moose , kennedy this rotation is fragile

Anon -

If you're going to compare Hughes this year to Santana this year you're obviously going to come to the conclusion that Santana is the better pitcher. Hughes is in his second season and Santana is one of the best pitchers in baseball. You have to give it time, judge the non-move over the course of the 7 years that Johan is signed for.

Also, dead-arm (which is what Posada has) is not something that is age related necessarily. Pitchers go through it all the time at any age. It's not structural, it's just after the repetative throwing you get some soreness and need to shut down for a little bit. It goes away.

Anon, no problem...

Chip, I agree, dead arm usually resolves with a short period of rest, so no need to consign Jorge to the scrap heap immediately! Only cause for concern is his saying it has lasted longer than usual (for him) already without improvement. According to him he usually recovers within 4-5 days but it's been a little longer so he wanted the MRI just to be sure there's nothing more going on.

Diane -

I think that the fact that he couldn't shake it is more or less a product of the weather. Cold weather like the Yankees have been playing in to start the season, you know as well as anyone, it's tough to get loose, harder to get the blood flowing - that's why early in the season we see all the muscle and hamstring pulls, especially on teams that open outdoors in the colder sites.

Chip,

I know, and I've been one of the proponents of starting the season later for that reason, though I have to admit that I am always thrilled when April 1 comes around. (Proving I'm an April Fool.)

Places to go and people to see now, but back later...

Posada is a 36 year old catcher. There's no way that his getting injured can be a shock.

Molina is a nice back up and the Yanks will do just fine.

As for the young pitchers... guess what?
They are young pitchers! They go through growing pains.

Clemens had injury issues and didn't flourish until his third season.
Randy Johnson's control was so bad he made Nuke LaLoosh look like a control specialist
Glavine, Avery and Smoltz resembled Sonny Corleone in the toll booth their first couple of years
And the only category Greg Maddux led the league in his first year and a half was awkward brown stains on his uniform pants.

Expecting Kennedy, Hughes and Chamberlain to resemble the 1971 Orioles out of the gate is insane.

I still think the Yankees are making the playoffs mainly because their bats are too good, Rivera and Joba are too solid in the pen and there are too many lousy pitching staffs for them to feast on. I think the Yanks will win 90-95 games... a lot of them 10-9.

And the bumps, bruises and learning that Kennedy, Hughes et al will go through will make them a HUUUUUGE contender for 2009.

How many teams can have a rebuilding season and still make the post season?

It's early.
Call me Nostrodamus but I don't think the playoff match ups are going to be Orioles/White Sox, Royals/Angels.

A lot can happen.
At this time last year Pedroia was so lousy for the Red Sox that everyone was calling for him to be sent back to Pawtucket.

Things turn around.

Sully,

I must say, you are one of the calm voices of reason in this forum. We don't always agree, but your analysis is pretty accurate most of the time.

And you're a Red Sox fan. Go figure.

I've said all along that the kids are going to be fine this season because the offense is going to overcome and bail them out of trouble more often than not.

I think Detroit is already a few losses away from digging themselves in a hole they might not be able to climb out of. My problem with that team was not their robust offense, but they have even worse pitching problems than the Yanks do.

I predicted the Tribe to win the Central for that reason. Little did I know they were going to start the season by losing at least their first 7 games. That team is already in trouble.

As far as the Yanks are concerned, the bumps they go through this season will be entirely worth it because they are going to be downright scary next season. A season of conditioning under the belts of the Trinity (with Joba eventually in the rotation) and the contracts coming off the books next offseason, this club is going to be really strong.

One point that I'd like to make is that just because a Yankee fan like myself makes a critique about a player or players does NOT mean we are panicking. In my case, I am merely commenting that what I predicted all along is what we are seeing before us now. I'm simply stating that personell decision mistakes have been made by Cashman and the FO. That is my OPINION.

Also, just because a majority on here say something about a player or players doesn't make it be true. You can all gang up on me for my OPINIONS on player personell decisions, but just because there are more of you, doesn't make you right and me wrong! I am not panicking at all because much of what we've been seeing is exactly what I expected all along. When I make comments, I'm basically just saying that I told you so. It has nothing to do with panicking! Please keep that in mind.

Actually, the panic that IS setting in comes from the very people that had much higher and misquided expectations about certain players on this team.

Who is this "Sully" guy?

Rick - As always, it's all about you.

Opinions are like toilets - we all have one and from time to time they are all full of crap.

I don't think anyone here said that Phil Hughes was going to pitch 30 great games, win 25, strike out 900, and mix in three no hitters. We all accepted that there would be ups and downs that he will have that a Johan might not. So saying that you were right that Hughes wasn't going to be as good as Santana this year isn't EXACTLY going out on a limb. I'm pretty sure that Cashman and Co. thought the same thing. In fact, anyone with half a brain could have predicted that.

You are not any more right or wrong than the rest of us, and as for why others "gang up" on you, perhaps it is because "I told you so" got old as an argument in third grade.

Speaking of which - how's your boy Lilly looking over in Chicago? Want to play the I told you so game - well, I told you that much like we saw Bronson Arroyo have success his first year in the NL and then come down to earth in year two - Lilly would follow the same pattern - thus far he is.

Arroyo was an average pitcher in the AL - his last season with Boston he was 14-10 with a 4.52 ERA. He went to a bad Cincy team and managed to post almost the same record with an ERA of only 3.29, the next year, the NL caught up to him and he went 9-15 with an ERA of 4.23.

Lilly is following the same pattern - last year in the AL he won 15 games with an ERA of 4.31. His first year in the NL he also won 15 games and saw his ERA drop to 3.81 - thus far he has pitched 8 innings in 2 games combined and given up 9 earned runs

If Hughes did that, you'd say it was growing pains! That's my whole point about your BIASED opinions. You see the Yankees with Rose Colored glasses. And, speaking of toilets, you must have a 6 bath house, because you my friend are full of crap far more often than I. Like they say, you can look it up.

bosstrots,

Who am I?

I'm Batman

If the Yankees were the Pittsburgh Pirates - I would live in Pittsburg.

Thanks for the info, Jim M

Sully....my long lost brother from another mother....I have a feeling we would have been good friends if we knew each other growing up. We have to meet up for a Sox Yanks game one day.