On the Yankees beat

Does anyone really think there is a better option than Hughes in Scranton?

Is it worth it to have Igawa or Rasner or someone else (Ed Whitson?) get bombed on the major league squad to have Hughes get his sh*t together in AAA?

Last year my boys kept throwing Tavarez out there while Lester recouped and Buchholz was lighting up AAA.

There was some short term pain and long term gain.

If this is truly a transition year then you have to let Hughes work it out in the Bronx

As I said in the last, I'd let him work it out if he could eat some innings, but only going 3-5 innings a start just isn't acceptable.

The pressure is starting to get to the Kid, Sully. AAA is the best option for him right now and for the Yanks.

Hughes just doesnt look like the same pitcher from last year. His fastball is sitting between 90-92 and doesn't throw his changeup enough. He got Jones swinging on a nasty 71 mph change, actually threw 2 in a row, then nothing after that. If he's not at 94-95 like he was in the minors, and he's not throwing his 3rd and 4th pitches, he's in for a long year. No pitcher can survive with just fastball curve. Peavy survives with 2 pitches, but like Joba, his fastball/slider combo is deadlier due to the fact they are coming at similar speeds.

I know the cards were stacked against him since Stewart looked miserable behind the dish ( should have been called strike 3 on Sheff before he hit his HR ) and the weather was crappy. Still his fastball is running to the right, hard. Im no pitching coach so I dont know what needs to be done to fix him, but physically and mentally he's not right. I hope he can figure it out here in the bigs, but its not the end of the world if we send him to Scranton for a month. His next two starts will determine what will be done.

Oh and as far as Santana, I still would NOT have done that deal. Everyone forgets how important Melky has been to this club in 08. When he's not in the field our defense is garbage, he's made a half dozen ESPN highlight plays already and is on pace for 30 HR's, he wont keep that up but a 20/20 year is well within reach. So Hughes, Melk and Ian would have been needed to finish the Santana deal. On top of that by paying Santana all that money, I bet we would have been outbid by the Mets for Teixeria. So which would you guys prefer =

Hughes
Melk
Ian
Teixeria

or

Santana

Thats pretty much what it would have come down to in the end.

Sully, its not that Rasner or Igawa are better than Hughes, not by a long shot. Its that the game of baseball is more than physical tools, a lot of it is between a player's ears. Someone brought up a great point with Liriano on the last thread. He was only throwing 90 MPH in his last start. Its not because he just throws 90, he was throwing 96 in the winter. Its the confidence that he can get that over for a strike. He even said his confidence was low and that he needed some more time. I hope Phil figures it out in the bigs, but thinking of the big picture here, it wouldnt be the end of the world to send him down. Again, this is not in the belief that Rasner can get us deeper into games, its all about confidence and trying to mangage that in a 21 year old.

Sully

I couldn't agree more my previous rant from the previous thread speaks as much...

WHATS WRONG WITH LETTING HIM LEARN ON THE JOB YOU ACT LIKE KENNEDY OR GODFORBID IGAWA AND RASNER ARE GOING FARE ANY BETTER???
YOU SOUND CRAZY AND SALACIOUS LIKE RIEBER NOW STOP IT
NEW RULE ANYONE POSTING SUCH PESSIMISTIC NONSENSE REGARDING HUGHES, KENNEDY, UUUUUGHGAWA OR RASNER MUST POST AS "G. KING"
NEW RULE!!

I don't Bomber I've got a sentimental affinity for the kid that pretty much makes me totally worthless in regards to a true sense of objectivity in this case.
I'm just disappointed i guess. I had and still have high hopes for him.
With that said...

I HEREBY RECUSE MYSELF FROM ANY FURTHER HUGHES CONVERSATION.
IF I SEE RASNER UP HERE I MAY MOVE FROM MANHATTAN TO SCRANTON LOL...
FOR REAL...
AND IF KEI DARES WEAR THOSE SUNGLASES I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL MAKE F%$^KING VOODOO DOLL!!!!!

I noted last night that Hughes seems to be aiming the ball instead of pitching. Unless his motion is that peculiar, he looked like a catcher throwing the ball last night. You know how catchers are taught to throw the ball by bringing the ball back only as far as their ear, but pitchers are taught to bring the arm all the way back and basically, from the stretch, show the ball to the CF before snapping that wrist when coming over the top. Phil doesn't look like that, he looks like he is pushing the ball toward the plate.

I said this earlier as well, does any pitching coach know Hughes better than Eiland? If not, then he should stay where he is.

And Alex and Jorge are hurt hah....No sorry not just hurt.

DL'D!!

THis is f up.

I keep hearing about how "average" or "unspectacular" Santana has been especially regarding last night...

UM HE GAVE UP 2 HITS!!

Just sayin...

Jim...took the words right off my keyboard, he's aiming the ball instead of letting it fly. Im not concerned with ERA or W/L at this point of the season or this point of young Phil's career. What Im watching as he's pitching is if he's hitting the catchers mit. Most of the time last night Stewart would setup on the outside part of the plate, but Phils ball would run back inside. Im not sure if he's not keeping his shoulder in, or what else in his mechanics is causing this lack of control. It is clearly affecting his location, which is causing him to not throw at max effort to compensate, hence the 90 mph fastball that used to be 94 on the black. If he cant get his fastball over for strikes and move it around the plate...up/down..in/out, it makes his nasty curve ordinary. There is something going on with his mechanics, lets see if Eiland can earn his check.

Mike - Santana is a great SP, top 5 in the entire league. Nobody can dispute that fact...I still would not have done the deal though.

again.....

whe n you pay to see lasting 6 innings giving up 6 runs is NOT ACCEPTABLE forget who is his coach he stinks.

Drew we could've bought him back when he's worked out these goddamned "KINKS"!!!!!!

WE'RE THE F&*KIUNG YABNKEES!!!

again...

just sayin...

NOT TO BEAT A DEAD STINKING HORSE ;-)

Great insight Anon! I guess by your calculations the Indians should have sent down CC after his 1st 4 starts this year.

5in = 5 Runs
5in = 4 Runs
3in = 9 Runs
4in = 9 Runs

Brilliant!

Mike - you gettin elitist on me??? lol

To Michael PTRS:

Re: comment on last thread.

That post I had up briefly on the Yankees blog was removed by me because I realized I had placed it on the wrong blog. It was supposed to go on the Final Score, the blog I share with Jim Baumbach. It's there now.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/columnists/jimbaumbach/blog/

But, hey, thanks for the pub. And thanks for hitting refresh so often.

ELITIST HAHAHA

No sir..

Just friendly jabs.

But Rieber has angered me.

keep hearing about how "average" or "unspectacular" Santana has been especially regarding last night...
UM HE GAVE UP 2 HITS!!
Just sayin...
------

Um, the two hits were home runs. He needed over 100 pitches and couldn't get through six against a bad offensive team. "Unspectacular" is being kind.

The funny anncillary to a pitcher struggling is the amateur pitching coaches come out of the woodwork and tell us WHY he's struggling. I've been guilty of this too so I cast no aspersions.

Boy this security code thing is still annoying. I thought they fixed that? Is that why roy storing doesn't post anymore?

Anthony Rieber,

It is very, very tiresome indeed.

Roy is only one of a least a half dozen who no longer post here, partly because of the hassle and partly because of the sheer annoyance of their numerous complaints being ignored.

Rieber,
Yes, that's why Roy ran off. He doesn't like change. Here's the key to getting through the code nonsense. Just before you click on "post", refresh your screen (this is after you've written your post of course). If someone has used your code, a new one will appear, type it in quickly and click on post and you should be good to go.

Jim A., Diane,

Have you figured out how to stop the new live blogging thingy from scrolling down the bottom everytime someone new posts? I understand there's a shortcut for that but everytime I try to read it....the thing scrolls down to the end again.

Dude YOU WORK FOR THE COMPANY SHOULDN'T WE BE ASKING YOU THESE QUESTIONS?

Michael,

Notice I didn't address you with that question. Your hostility is off the charts today. If someone giving an opinion about Phil Hughes gets you that upset...well, I don't know what to say about that. As I said in my first message to you, thanks for hitting refresh so often.

Whatever your job is, I'm sure you understand with a large company there are many different departments. I don't work in IT and I haven't spent a lot of time on the new live blog. Technology that is new to you is also new to me until I figure out how to use it.

I thought maybe Diane or Jim A., ie reasonable adults with whom you can have a conversation, might know the answer.

I've had many baseball disagreements with Diane and Jim A., but they are, to use Jim's phrase, "good people."

Now you can go back to yelling if you wish.

That last post addressed to Michael is from me. See? I had Michael PTRS on the brain.

Dude YOU WORK FOR THE COMPANY SHOULDN'T WE BE ASKING YOU THESE QUESTIONS?
--

Well, admittedly, that was really funny.

I agree with Sully's original comment that opened this blog. Kei Igawa, Darrell Rasner, Steve White? None of these guys do anything for me, and they won't do anything for the Yankees either. You want to move Ohlendorf into the rotation? Try to swing a deal for Bronson Arrroyo where the Yankees don't have to give up anything resembling a top prospect? Take Barry Zito off of San Fran's hands and hope to heck that he can bounce back?

Look, if the Yankees believe that Hughes needs to go to Scranton to dominate some Triple A players and get his confidence back, then go for it. I don't like it, but I don't get to make those decisions. But if they are sending him down there to get more seasoning, well that's nuts. He knows he can get minor leaguers out, the Yankees know he can get minor leaguers out. He needs to learn how to get MAJOR leaguers out and the only way to do that is to pitch here, in New York, every fifth day. Same goes for Ian Kennedy. I mean what is the end game in sending him down to gain confidence? He comes back up, pitches well and then what, gets roughed up and is rushed to Scranton for a confidence boost?

The pitching coach who knows him best (Eiland) is here. He's surrounded by veteran pitchers who know what it takes to survive in the majors - he just needs to trust the amazing stuff he has that got him to this point in the first place. Mike Mussina said yesterday on the radio that the league on average hits .200 when they put the first ball in play - so throw strike one.

Try to swing a deal for Bronson Arrroyo where the Yankees don't have to give up anything resembling a top prospect? Take Barry Zito off of San Fran's hands and hope to heck that he can bounce back?
-----

I hope the Yankees aren't thinking about either of these options, especially the second. They already have one guy throwing 85 mph fastballs. They don't need another throwing 82.

Actually Roy doesn't post anymore because he broke the quotes button on his keyboard and was "lost" without it.

Bailey - I agree, just pointing out that there is very little out there in terms of available pitching and what is out there ain't any better than the performances we're seeing from Hughes/Kennedy but lack the potential of either of them.

Rieber,
I haven't figured that live blog thing out yet and I have the same problem you do.
ps: The Animal House reference on The Final Score blog was great but the guy who called you an idiot and corrected you was priceless. That guy probably had to look that up in his high school history book.
That made my day.

If someone knows the secret to the live blog scrolling thingy, give it up please!

I know, how about Santana or Ted Lilly??? hahahaha

Anthony Rieber,

The live blog did the same annoying jump thing to me when I tried to 'drop in' between innings.

I haven't really tried to figure it out because I like watching games more than I like instant messaging. Sometimes I'll skim through the following morning to see what my fellow bloggers were on about.

Also, Jim A.'s routine works most but not all the time. You'll still get the hassle, including the dreaded 'Forbidden' page, part of the time no matter what you do.

Anthony Rieber,

Michael PTRS can get rather animated but like a wild young pitcher it would be a pity to just curb that liveliness!! At least I wouldn't want to. Few can be as quick and amusing as our Archangel, and I miss him whenever he takes one of his 'leaves of absence' from our blog.

Then chip You can freakin say the same argument for kei Igwana let him pitch every 5th day

2008 SWB INT 2 3 3.58 6 6 0 0 0 32.2 28 14 13 2 8 32 0.86 .230

NYY 14 12 0 0 67.2 76 48 47 15 37 53 2 3 0 0 -- 6.25 - 2007 stats kei igawa

SPLITS G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L P/GS WHIP BAA ERA
Season 6 6 0 0 22.0 34 23 22 2 13 13 0 4 74.2 2.14 .362 9.00
Phil Hughes 2008 stats

I'm sorry but Kei;s numbers are better and i feel IF improvement was made down below then he deserves another chance after all big money was spent on him.

now you may say well keep throwing Phil out every 5th day well that is good in some cases but if he is a mental wreck then maybe he should go paying fans are not going to tolerate a losing pitcher.

Chip, Im with you my friend. Whether its pitching or hitting, slumps are slumps. I hate to make excuses, but Phil has been getting the short end of the stick so far this year. Lets review..

1st start was against the Blue Jays in cold April 3rd weather at the stadium. He did well though, went 6, 4 hits, 1 BB, 4K, 2ER

His next 4 starts were all on the road...

@ KC, miserable rainy, wet weather, neither SP could throw strikes.

@ BOS, again, miserable cold weather, Dice K walked 6 in 5.

@ BAL, finally nice weather for Phil. He pitched 5 and only gave up 1 run, 4 hits, 2BB, 1K, only 1 XBH given up..the other three were ground ball singles. The wheels came off in the 6th though, 3 straight singles, a pop out, another single...then Hawkins got smacked around to giving Phil 5 ER for the day.

@ CWS...GO, FO, K, 1B, FO, GIDP....2 IP, 1 H, 1 K, 0 BB....23 total pitches, 15 for strikes...then it rained.

Then last night...

DET...cold windy weather and a new catcher.

Again, I hate to make excuses, but we're not dealing with a seasoned vet here, this is a 21 year old kid so these things "COULD HAVE" affected him.

On the positive side, these situations are character builders. Its easy to pitch when your arm is strong, you are focused, its warm, not windy and all your secondary pitches are going for strikes. When you have to battle and figure it out, you learn at a greater pace. Young Phil is getting a crash course in the Bigs.

Like Mr Hobbs told young Roy, talent is not enough, if you depend on your talent alone, you will fail.

You are making excuses plain and simple if hughes was a redsox you would say he is a bust. As of right now he is done but repaiable but not at the expense of the club. I understand he was the chosen one and etc. but that is what you get for labeling one such and I know it's hard to give up on a player which i would not do again you used the weather and conditions as merits of excuse. what was the excuse when he was getting lit up in ST what was the excuse for his subpar showings in the MLB ??? right the excuse would be he did'nt play in enough games to merit judgement that is why ahlf of you on here were morons for calling him the next rocket after one good start.

WOW...a little angry are we Bomber? Baseball is not a vacuum Bomber, there are Million intangibles for why some players succeed and others fail. Some are slow starters like Teixeria, some have horrible 1st innings like Tom Glavine, this is not a black and white issue, there's too much grey in baseball. To ignore that is to be well versed in ignorance. So BB, why dont you get off your pedestal and come back down to earth. Just because you rub elbows with Yankees before games doesnt make you an expert. I never said he was the next Rocket, nor did I say anything about the young Sox when they were getting rocked. When Bucholtz was getting lit up his 1st couple starts I wasnt calling him a bust. Same can be said for Lester who was getting rocked before pitching a gem last night. So stop clumping me together with whoever you're talking about...bloggers, media, your friends etc...I said it from the start back in the Fall, there are going to be times when Phil and Ian and even Joba look like minor leaguers, or worse. I illustrated NUMEROUS times with stats from aces in this league ( Peavy, Bedard, Lackey, etc ) showing that it took these guys until they were 24-25 to start pitching well. When they were all in the bigs at 21-23 they were miserable. I’ve preached nothing but patience for the young starters. Go read my last post again….

“Again, I hate to make excuses, but we're not dealing with a seasoned vet here, this is a 21 year old kid so these things "COULD HAVE" affected him”

So now Im a moron? Please Bomber, just because you live next to the stadium doesn’t make you an authority pal. Open your eyes and understand that baseball is bigger than box scores, Wins and Losses. There are many intangibles in this game that need to be looked at.

Bomber,

If you don't worship at the shrine of Hughes you'll get all this angry stuff about pedestals and all these excuses about why our baby boy is more affected by cold, wind, rain, new catchers, bright lights, and the tough old world than anybody else. It's all nonsense.

The kid has shown us nothing yet.

I am among those who believe that eventually he will have something to show.

Whether 'eventually' means weeks, months, or even a couple of years, nobody knows, including his groupies.

How heavily the rest of the team should pay to keep him starting when he isn't even giving us innings is the question. IMNSHO.

LOL....you guys ( and gal ) really crack me up. BELIEVE me, I am far from a "Hughes Groupie", I think the kid has talent and Im hoping he can translate that talent into the bigs. Like you gracefully illustrated, this could be weeks, months or even years. Im willing to wait. Maybe that means getting shelled in the majors, sent down for a month to get his mechanics right or being sent down for the year. Im willing to wait it out even if that means Phil getting shelled for a month or two and us missing the playoffs this year. Like Sully stated, what are the other options at this point? You guys ready to pull the plug like BB?

"worship at the shrine of Hughes"...hilarious!

DRU -

If you called him a top of the line ace and say he will win 15 - 20 games this year based upon what was witnessed last season then yes that is ahead of yourself. If you did'nt say such then moron is not aimed at you unless you want it too be .

People swore that this kid would be the new King, a big press spectacular on him being the ace and other idiotic pressure filled goals that probally literally messed this kid up. must we forget where he plays and what crowd he plays for and trust me his leash is long eventhough he was booed last night the Boo's was hesistant boo's meaning even yankee fans are giving him some patience.

Diane -

your correct again these people are basically embarrassed due to the belief that this kid was supposed to have such a season, but when chase wright is piching better there is a problem (haha) Honestly even I root for hughes but not at the expense of my TEAM people say transition year there is no transition year in yankee land not when people is paying 100 dollars and better to view a game and not when a team is expected to contend.

I along with a whole lot of fans on here been through the "CAN"T miss prospects and saw the dissapointment 1st hand so excuse me if alot of fans are a lil salty on prospects.

Like i said the leash is very much longer than that of a Kei iIgawa who could use a whole different approach I AM A STRANGER ON FOREIGN SOIL.

People blame the cold a new catcher etc. meanwhile Ross O comes in and blazed away with good pitching , does that mean Ross is much better than Phil ?

nobody is pulling the plug but the glass house is sure in effect now.

if hughes was Kei right now with a 0-4 record and a 9.00 era the lynch mob will be out and if Kei said through a translator some crap about his site at night under the lights the lynch mob would be out to hang him what I'm doing is exposing crazy talk that most people love to aim at others on here. You see Dru there is people on here( I must admit not you) that post like they are god;s gift to baseball and poke fun of other members basically stating there baseball knowlege is mute and will post away with supposedly solid facts then when it blows up then they come back down to earth and say hey give it time etc. If we are to givwe a chance then it should be to ALL PLAYERS chase wright should have been given a chance when reading all the excuses posted on here in defense of hughes. Paying fans is not trying to see a losing team especially not the last season of the current staduim i can tell you THAT FACT because I hear it. It would not be pretty if hughes is like 0 -7 , yes cone went thorugh this but the love for COne was different

BB...let me rewind months ago. I listed my goals for this year. At the top of the list was getting Phil, Ian and Joba innings, it was followed by keeping them healthy, which was followed by figuring out bullpen rolls for our young RP….I listed around 10 items, the last 2 were making the playoffs and winning a WS. I stated that I would be pleased if Phil went.

12-12...4.50 ERA...160K...1.25 WHIP

I was then verbally assaulted by the "Trade for Santana Crew". "WELL THEN WHY DIDNT WE TRADE FOR JOHAN!!!" I explained that you would have to be nuts to think Phil would even come close to putting up Santana numbers this year or even the next. I again showed what kind of stats the aces of this league had when they were 21-22-23-24. If Phil starts off with those stats and improved each year by just 1/4 of a run and 1 win, in 4 years when he was 25 he would have..

15-16wins...3.50 ERA

Thats all Im looking for. I was NEVER expecting him to be Doc Gooden or Clemens right off the bat. I actually said I wished he would turn out to be the next David Cone...eventually. This is a long term plan in place for Phil, Ian and the Yanks as a whole. If that means putting young guys in hard situations to see if they sink or swim, but sacrifice our record this season, so be it. Im fully prepared to not only take a hit this year, but also next year if that means getting the young staff innings and seeing what we have with our young bullpen and position players ready to come up.

When I made those points I was told by certain people that...we owed it to Jeter and Mo to win...that they root for the uniform not the players...and a bunch of other crap that made my eyes roll.

This is a transition year for the yanks to see what we have. So far our youngest player ( the youngest SP in the entire league ), is off to a rocky start. Maybe it was the weather, maybe it was the immense pressure, or maybe he’s just not ready to be a MLB starter yet. Nobody knows for sure, all we can do is list the positives, negative and variables that can affect him positively or negatively. Again, like I said before, Im not making excuses, Im just trying to look at the situation from every angle.