On the Yankees beat

Our National Debt is 9 trillion.

I've read there are 300 trillion in unaccounted and unpayable derivatives floating in the global market. Though Diaper may say "No one cares" if this number is true, and it could be, then we are headed for a national and global Tsunami.

I would say, and have said, NO on Johan and trim the rest of the fat and dead weight on the payroll. Last year a third of the payroll was wasted.

For example

Ted Lilly 10 million for 15 wins
Igawa 55 million for 1 win and three decent outings

Lilly won 15 for Toronto and could have done well for us, especially at the beginning of the season when we had so many injuries.

If I am a stockholder, Cashman is LONG GONE for his horrendous decisions and total mismanagement of the team.

Posted by DRU | January 4, 2008 12:24 Hey Ant,

Not to get into it with you, since we seem to be cool with each other, but Im a tattooed Darwinist. Evolution and ink, what a combo!!!!

Love Always,

DRU
xoxoxoxoxo

DRU - this post on the last thread is priceless!

Viper, Sully and vast numbers of other posters, the lunatic doesn't get it and never will. Just ignore, as I do, anything he writes.

Diane, I couldn't agree with you more about your frustration. I hang in here because I like the 'community' of people we have, even though there are some other great blogs out there. I hope you will to, because just maybe Kat can get this fixed!

I side with Hank. If Hal would like to give me back some of the thousands of dollars I will spend on Yankees tickets this year, then I support his keeping the payroll lower. However, the Yankees will only be taking more money from us fans by charging more for tickets and parking so if I'm going to pay a premium, I want a premium product on the field.

Kat: I've never heard Diane yell so loud as she did on the last thread. You better call the Geek Squad now and get this blog fixed 'cause I think Diane's going to explode!

The worst thing this code system does is interrupt the good flow of a "conversation" and it is getting to be a royal pain. If there was something actually going on w/ the Yanks right now, I'd be punching the Caps Lock button on my keyboard and going off too!

Good luck Kat!

Dru, Ant etc.
Since this is turning into the "AA" meeting for the tattooed, I'll confess: My name is Jim and I have a tatoo. (a Tasmanian Devil with a baseball bat on his shoulder and the Yanks "NY" on his chest). No religious meaning, sorry 'bout that.
It's the product of an 18 year old with a belly full of beer after watching the Yanks win an exciting game.

I feel so much better now.

Why should fans care about the payroll? Ticket prices and concession items are going up not matter what the payroll is. The Yanks will have lots of flexibility next year with the subtraction of Giambi, Farnsworth, Mussina and Pavano. It's not the money that bothers me. It's giving away too much young talent for a pitcher that has already thrown lots of innings and looked a little shaky in the second half of 2007. In a perfect world, the Yankees would be able to buy Santana with just cash.

Santana has seen his best years. He's got maybe 2 better than average years left in his arm before he becomes a #2-#3 starter. Any team that signs him 6 years @ $20M per is gonna be crippled by that large contract without the returns.

The smart play is to hold on to Hughes, Melky and everyone else. The current roster will mature into another dynasty in another year or two.

I don't want Santana because I don't want to give up Hughes and 140 Million. I'd rather see that money spent elsewhere than a pitcher.

I'd like Santana to go to the NL and let this all be a moot point.

I'm not saying they should save the $140 Mill and line their pockets, I'd just rather see it spent in other ways, like getting better bullpen help, or use it to sign Santana when he's a free agent and not have to give up our young prospects.

All of those who have the foresight to predict that Santana will "break down" (the quotes are in honor of our departed friend Roy Storing) may want to check the crystal ball again and check the success rate of 3 rookie pitchers. If anyone on here thinks that Joba, Hughes and Kennedy will all live up to the expectations that have been laid out, I think you are kidding yourselves.

Santana is 28, soon to be 29. He has at least 6 years left as a top of the rotation starter. If you think he will break down, then why shouldn't Hughes, Joba or Kennedy get injured? History already shows that Santana stays healthier than Hughes and Santana is also in phenomenal shape. If you don't go after a player because you think he is going to get hurt, than you won't have anyone on your team.

In a perfect world the Twins either hold on to Santana and the Yanks sign him next winter or Santana does what he should have been doing all along and tells them he'll reject a trade to any team but the Yanks, thus allowing the Yanks to lower their offer and get him for a few mid-level prospects and Kei Igawa. Of course I'm dreaming on that front but so what.

Did anyone catch "Yankees Hot Stove" on YES last night? Something I found pretty interesting that contradicted what I've read on this blog.

When Kim Jones (by the way, just WHO does she have secret information on that she uses as leverage to remain employed?) was interviewing Dave Eiland, he pointed out that Joba has 3 pitches, Kennedy is the most polished as far as his mechanics and has 3 or 4 pitches and he said Hughes has two, two and a half pitches.

What I'd read on this site previously was that Joba had four pitches and Hughes 3, and working on a fourth. I can't say that interview left me feeling all that good about '08.

Jim A., I'm a big admirer of your baseball knowledge and your posts, but I wonder if you should necessarily be worried about those comments of Eiland. After all, how many power pitchers come up to the Bigs with more than two pitches? Did Koufax, did Seaver or any number of others? I ask this in all sincerity. I'm not trying to be a smart alec, because I really can't recall. But I wonder if it's not often true that great pitchers develop still more pitchers as they go along, and I thought that I had read that Hughes is one of those guys who are eminently 'teachable.'

I realize that Hughes doesn't have Joba type readings on the gun, but I thought that 94 -95 MPH - with MOVEMENT and CONTROL -would be a great combination and a good beginning. In fact, straight speed is no big problem for ML hitters, as we know. So what I'd be more concerned about, is whether it's true that Hughes has the movement on his pitches that we've heard about and that he is indeed a fast learner.

I expect DRU to jump in at any moment now and break that down far better than I just did.

Anyone, I hope to be with you all tomorrow. Good night back there in Yankeeland!

Yanks61,
I'm not overly worried to tell you the truth, but there seems to be conflicting information. At one point, we'd heard that Hughes was regularly at 95-96 MPH on the radar gun, yet I saw him consistently at 92-93 MPH, which means he was either still bothered by his hamstring and ankle injuries, his mechanics were a little screwy or somebody wasn't telling the truth. We'd also heard that he had 3 "plus" pitches and now his own pitching coach contradicts that.

If he was at 95-96 MPH and could blow hitters away, I'd say that's not a problem, but if he's at 92 MPH, it's a world of difference, especially later in the game and especially if he doesn't have a third pitch to break out when needed.

We've all said it before, that if you have a devastating pitch you can get by for a while, such as Mariano has with his cutter because hitters aren't seeing him over and over again, but if you have just two pitches, at some point hitters will figure you out.

Maybe I'll feel a lot better in March when I see him on the mound, throwing hard and looking healthy.

I know Dru will jump in any second, but I'm really trying to draw Hughes Your Daddy out of hiding!

There is a world of hype about rookies.

As far as I'm concerned, a pitcher can throw what I've SEEN him throw. If I've seen Hughes throw low nineties, two pitches, that's what he throws.

The hype from those who are pimping him is just that until I SEE something else.

I can hope that I will actually SEE, when pitchers and catchers report, what they so far only imagine, but time alone will tell.

Hughes does have three pitches - although his third pitch, a change-up, is a work in progress.

Hughes was very good in Sept and Oct when he got the drive back in his legs after the injuries - in addition to mixing in some change-ups under the tutelage of Eiland.

Of course, his control was considerably better too and that always makes a big difference. He was painting the corners with his fastball instead of throwing them over the middle of the plate like he did in August.

The fastball is still the best pitch in the major leagues when located well.

Viper,
I did look at his last 3 starts of the season and saw he was 3-0 w/ a 2.73 ERA, plus he looked really good in relief of Clemens in the playoffs.
I don't know how his velocity was during those games, can't recall, but maybe he was getting the feel back or to use the old saying "getting his legs under him".

I'm really torn on the idea of trading him. Part of me says the Yanks shouldn't let go of this kid because he might be great but another part keeps saying Santana is proven, he's a lefty and he's in the prime of his career.

I've been a Yankees fan since about 1973, I guess that's about when I can remember actually being a fan, and I don't recall any dilemma like this one. There is just no right answer to this one unless the Twins hold on to Santana and take the draft picks next year.

Clemens, Pettitte, McNamee and Kirk Radomski have been asked to testify to Congress.

Pettitte has already said McNamee sold him HGH.
Let's see if Clemens sticks to his "It was B-12" story.

Lie to Mike Wallace and you look silly
Lie to Congress and you committed a crime... unless you are Oliver North.

Either way, I thought Congress had other things to do... you know like 2 wars, Healthcare, Infrastructure, etc

It's all silly

I guess Congress is all Red Sox fans. Man the conspiracy against the Yanks grows and grows.

I love that some Yankee fans really think Congress is conspiring to destroy the Yankees.

Vote for Obama..!!!!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

I hope to get back to blogging once this site gets fixed, but it is just ridiculous to even try the way it is now. I know me not posting is GOOD news to most of you, but I do enjoy hearing all of your views and I hope I do have a couple of friends on here.

Listening to Keith Law today with Max Kellerman regarding our young Phillip...

(Not verbatim but some parts I remember better than others)

Kellerman : Hughes was the number one prospect in baseball reportedly threw in the middle to high nineties as high as 97 when only 19yrs old...etc Why then should the Yankees trade a 21yr old kid who projects as number one starter to the twins for a 29yr old pitcher who will also be a number one starter etc...

Kieth Law : Hughes in the 5 or 6 times I've seen him thru the majors and minors never threw high or middle nineties. He has a decent-"to plus" fastball that tops out around 93 or 94 but it's a very straight pitch which will make him somewhat homerun prone.
He's a got a plus curve which is his "out pitch" which to be considered a number 1 or 2 starter you must have however his change up is an average pitch and he's yet to command it at the major league level. To my knowlege that pitch is still considered a work in progress. The issue with Hughes is going to be whether or not he can locate his fast ball to both sides of the plate. To this point he showed he could control it up and down but not to both sides of the plate. Without a third pitch he's going to be very vulnerable. In my opinion he has number 2/3 potential but only if he can master a third pitch.

Kellerman: Of the three how do you rank them blah blah..

Keith Law: Chamberlain. I've seen him light up the gun at 97mph in the 7th inning and has that devastating slider to got with his fastball so he already has 2 plus plus pitches with an average curve and change up that he throws for strikes. I think he has the potential to succeed in either role and he's by far the highest ceiling prospect.

He said Kennedy is the most polished and probably will be a solid 5 or maybe 4 later in his career.

If i can get a transcript of that conversation I'll post it on monday. Kellerman is not national he's regional so his podcasts aren't updated till monday for a friday show even then it's not always included.

Again not verbatim but to the best of my memory..

jb...

NO POLITICS!
Not on the Left nor the Right

Next person who mentions politics I will force to watch Margot at the Wedding on a loop!

Jim A,

Well, I must admit - I'm not torn on any Santana trade. I've been against dealing for Santana since the day after the ALDS when every Yankee fan was in an uproar over not having an "ace."

I’ve preached it so many times that my fingers are blistered, but the Yanks need depth in that rotation more than an ace. They did okay in the late 90s without a surefire ace the likes of Santana, Beckett, Peavy, or Pedro or Unit in their prime. A rotation of 4-5 very good pitchers is close to unbeatable in the postseason because few teams can match that kind of depth.

The Yanks have a great core of young talent that are major league ready (with more to come) and I feel continuing to develop that young talent is the best way to get this team back where they belong.

I don't want the Yanks to revert back to the old days and trade their young talent for older players who will not duplicate earlier success - not to mention the huge commitment in dollars and years on top of it, including the 40% luxury tax hit the team would take on a Santana contract. Obviously, this strategy has not worked very well in recent years and the Yanks have been burned by such commitments for the last several years.

Many Yankee fans think this organization is a bottomless pit when he comes to spending, but that's not true. Fans are willing to spend whatever it takes as long as it’s not their money. This team does have a budget and Cashman doesn't want to exceed it.

It’s time for a new strategy. Letting the very talented kids develop is the right one.

I’ll gladly take Santana in another year if he makes it to free agency (with the other contracts coming off the books), but I don’t want the Yanks to trade away one of their best young players away for him now.

Hal is the man.

Check out this clip of the YES crew after his Texas start. Notice how they talk about Phil's changeup. That pitch will only get better over time =

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3216449272736855286&q=Phil+Hughes+Rangers&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

Have a good night all!!!

Viper,
While I certainly see what you are saying as we have been having the same discussion for what seems like an eternity but here's the difference between trading Hughes for Santana and some of the deals the Yanks have made in the past:

a. Hughes is one of many Yanks pitching prospects, the farm is stocked according to all the info I've read.

b. Santana is not old, he's in the PRIME of his career, not going down hill any time soon.

c. Santana is LEFT HANDED and the Yankees are stocked with right handed prospects.

d. Trading Hughes for Santana doesn't hurt the Yankees depth at all, they still have Wang, Pettitte, Joba, Kennedy, Moose and youngsters on the way.

Reading what PTRS posted above doesn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy, but I guess we'll see soon enough.

Rick: Of course you have friends on here, I've been wondering what you've been up too. Hey, we all may not disagree but I'd say we're all friends for the most part.
Happy New Year to you and your whole family.

Jim,

We can agree to disagree since we haven't seen eye to eye on this issue for the last two months.

Putting words in CAPS isn't going to convince those of us who don't see it your way. Every Yankee fan has his or her opinion on this issue and aren't likely to change their minds now.

A.) I don't care that Santana is left-handed. A good pitcher is a good pitcher no matter what side he throws from. Sabathia is a left-hander who won the Cy Young and got hammered in the postseason.

B.) My reference to depth simply means that the Yanks can continue their strategy and build a stable with the kids. They don't need a surefire ace to be successful.

C.) Santana would be going from the AL Central to the AL East. Once the Tribe and Tigers' offenses got better last season - Santana's numbers got significantly worse. He also didn't fare well against them head-to-head and has a ton of miles on that arm.

The Yanks would be paying for the numbers he put up in MIN that won't be duplicated. The AL East has much better offenses than the AL Central did from 2003 to 2006 when he was unhittable.

I'm all for getting Santana in a year, but I don't want to trade Hughes and $140M for him now.

Obviously, Cashman and Hal feel the same way and so do the vast majority of Yankee fans.

Andy Phillips and Matt DeSalvo signed with other teams, the Reds and Braves.

Not so fast! Mets remain suitor for Johan Santana

http://mikesilva.gothamsportsmedia.com/content/view/183/9/

Friday, 04 January 2008
Joey DeMayo's Mets Report

A question Met fans have asked a lot, “Why do the Mets have to drain their farm system, but the Sox and Yanks don’t?” Well according to a baseball official I spoke with, the Red Sox and Yankees also have to, as you can see by the deals above. I personally am not 100% behind Jon Heyman’s report on WFAN yesterday that stated that the Mets have essentially told the Twins that “any four prospects” could go for Santana. If that was the case, Santana to the Mets would be done right now.

This is a three team race for Santana, and who better to have in the race than the two NY teams and the Red Sox? According to sources, Santana will indeed be traded because Minnesota is set to do so. And they can get a nice bounty from any of these three teams. Whichever of the three were to acquire Santana, in my opinion, would instantly be the favorites to win their league pennant and possibly the World Series. Santana is simply an organization changing kind of player.

Don't vote for Romney or Huckabee

Vote for Obama!!!! Time for Change

Good Night..

Anon...
You talked Politics

Be prepared to be forced to watch Margot at the Wedding for 24 hours straight!

I grew up with the late 50's and 60's Yankees (was described in my HS yearbook as a "rabid Yankee fan" and still am) and migrated to Australia in the mid 70's. For the past 10 or so years, I've been able to closely follow the team every day via the internet. The late '70's, 80's and very early "90's didn't exist for me in terms of the Yankees. It's always interesting looking at the possible off season and trade deadline moves. I'd really like to see the Yankees stick with their young pitching prospects. Sure, they all will not be aces and some might not cut it at all.....but some will and there's a lot of talent there to pick from. Santana's innings over the last 4 years in particular worry me. He may have a good year year in 2008, but I doubt he will have many "top of the rotation" years left in his arm. Let's stick with the kids, even if we don't win it all this year. Hell, it's been a few years since we won it all, so let's try it a different way this time. We might be pleasantly surprised this year. If we're not, we should know where our pitchers stand and then move accordingly. Hank is also a worry. We don't need loose cannons telegraphing what the intentions of the organisation are before trades are made. We'll only pay more as a result of that kind of stuff. Hank should let the baseball people make the decisions. He hasn't had the previous involvement and experience within the organisation that is required in order to know what's good and what isn't.

Right on, Gary.

Couldn't agree more.

I'm also getting really tired of Hank Steinbrenner opening his big mouth. He does his team no favors by talking to the media as often as he does.

We don't need to know everything.

I wish he would let the grown ups deal with the media so he can play on his dad's horse farms and restaurants.

Jim A. your points are well taken especially the abundance of right handers although this is not extremely important. A good pitcher is a good pitcher no matter which hand he uses. Not to dismiss this, it is good to have a lefty (in this case an ace lefty) to strengthen the rotation. I see your logic that the likelihood of Joba, Hughes and Kennedy all succeeding is not great but it would not be unprecedented and it seems like they all have a pretty good chance as they have all already done it, albeit briefly. Also on this point, better to have 3 trying to make it rather than 2 or 1. I also agree that Santana is in his prime, is not yet on the decline and has a half dozen or so top of the rotation years ahead of him. That said, I have to agree with Viper on the Santana trade, at least as currently constituted. It's a lot of money and it's too much to give up. It's too many eggs in one basket. I think Hughes should be enough. Throw them a bone with a lower level prospect or 3. If someone else offers more, let them have him. And Jim, I know you will think I overrate Melky but I think he can be Bernie with less power and a better arm. He's a switch hitter with some pop. He's just a kid. He wore down last year. He'll get stronger and get used to the grind. I think he can hit .300. I'd like to see him, Jackson, Tabata and Gardner be the OF over the next couple years. If you consider Michael PTRS (not verbatim) scouting report and say Joba is a 1 or 2 and Hughes is a 2 or 3 and Kennedy is a 4 or 5, they could be the heart of a great rotation for 15 years. Granted, it might not happen, but if it did, along with the OF's, ARod and Cano, this team would be really, really, very special for a long time. It's not an easy decision and many of us are torn. There's always risk. For me, it's too much to give up, keep the young guys, build a cohesive group from within. It's the right way/thing to do.

Minnesota say they are happy to keep Santana. However, they couldn't have been happy with him going 1-8 vs. division rivals Cleveland (0-5) and Detroit (1-3) last year. It gets worse when you look at the number of homeruns that he gave up. In 219 innings he gave up 33 homeruns. Team-mate Silva went for 20 in 202 innings. Wang went for only 9! Some others with similar innings to Santana-Beckett 17, Sabathia 20 (241 innings), Halladay 15, Pettitte 16, Carmona 16. Granted Santana led the league WHIP at 1.07 but he does give away some big hits and that's probably a big part of him only going 15-13 last year. Was his decline over the last few months of the season caused by a lack of interest, as Minnesota was out of the race, or was it all those innings starting to catch up with him? I think he's already had his best years. Let him stay in Minnesota or even go to Boston if they want to overspend for him. Let's see how our young guys develop. And it's not just Hughes that we're losing. Cabrera has developed into a very decent outfielder. He may have even led the league in outfield assists or was at least near the top of that list and he brings energy to the line-up. Keep the kids and let someone else get burned to the tune of $140,000,000.

Peter Lacock, you took the words right out of my mouth, and then Aussie Gary (welcome aboard Gary!) added a few more I would have liked to have said. So I won't repeat all of those very fine arguments. Viper and DRU have been holding the fort big time in this debate and it's now good to see reinforcements.

Viper, I completely agree with your point about great depth as opposed to a single 'Ace.' But you know, if you look at Yankee history, I think that you will see that with teams that had that depth, that at least one pitcher every year does emerge as that ace or stopper - sometimes more than a single pitcher emerges as especially tough in key games.

That's not to say that Jim A, Michael PTRS and the others who hold another view about trading Hughes don't make excellent points. In fact, I can well understand why you feel as torn as you do, Jim. As you rightly point out, this must be the most difficult decision Yankee management has had to make in a ton of years. I'm just instinctively drawn to the idea of doing things differently and going with the kids until they prove - after a fair chance - unable to get it done.

It's not so much about the Yankee's need for Santana... which is important enough; it is about the fact that the Sox, with Santana, Beckett and Dice-K will be dominant for the next 5-7 years. That would all but nullify the rest of the career Jeter, ARod, the whole out field and Mariano. We'd be chasing Cleveland, Seattle and others for the wild card for the next decade. That is just unacceptable....

I don't think the Red Sox truly want Johan, more to the point I don't think the Twins really want to trade Johan. The offers for Santana haven't changed, to my knowledge, since the Winter Meetings. If the Twins wanted Hughes, Melky, Marquez, and another minor leaguer, then they would have done the deal already.

On another note, Andy Phillips signed a minor league deal with the Reds where he will compete for a bench role.

Johan had one bad month... he was a Cy Young contender until the end of August when his team that couldn't hit nor field fell totally off the map.

He's still the best pitcher in baseball

Anyone going to New Hampshire to support Obama? Don't vote for Lunatic aka Matt Romney or Huckleberry Huckabee.

Vote for Obama for 2008... Time for a Change.. I'm tired of Bush and his lies... Don't vote anymore Republicans in any office....

You're a wise man, Yanks61.

I think you're right about Yankee pitchers through the years who have stepped up and pitched big games for this team when they needed it most.

Specifically, if you take a good look at the last Yankee Dynasty, pitchers like Wells, Pettitte, El Duque, Cone, Clemens, etc. all seemed to emerge as the "ace" of the Yankees at some point and a different guy stepped up every year.

But there's a distinction between the ace of the Yankees and a surefire ace the likes of Beckett, Santana, Pedro, and Unit - the elites.

Right now, Wang is still considered the ace of the Yankees but not viewed as a surefire ace who can dominate a postseason game.

I think a lot of people elevate the Yankee pitchers of the late 1990s to "ace" status because the teams were so good. In some ways, they were a product of the system due to the fantastic depth the Yanks had in the rotation.

All of those guys were very good pitchers who ate a lot of innings, but none of them were among the elite pitchers in the game. Clemens was unbelievable in BOS and TOR, but he wasn't the same dominant guy with the Yanks when they won rings.

Give me a choice between four #2 pitchers in a rotation and one with a surefire ace and three average pitchers and I'll take the former every time.

Barry,

They don't play the games on paper.

The Yanks went to the World Series in 2003 and acquired the best player of our generation in Feb of 2004 - which collectively made RSN sick to their stomachs out of fear that the Yanks would be nearly unstoppable.

If I had told you the day of that trade that A-Rod would win two MVPs for the Yanks over the next four seasons but wouldn't make it back to the World Series - would you have believed me?

Probably not.

I wouldn't crown RSN champions for the next 5-7 years whether they land Santana or not. I don't see Theo and Co. pulling that trigger anyways.

You don't make major deals like trading away one of your top young arms and spending $140M for an extension to keep him away from your rival. You do it because it makes the most sense for your team.

Obviously, Cashman and Hal don't think it makes sense and would rather go with the youth movement. Most Yankee fans agree.

Peter, Aussie, HYD, Viper and of course Yanks61...seems like our forces are gaining power!!! This reminds me of a previous post I made.....

Philip Wallace: Sons of Yankee Land I am Philip Wallace.
Yankee fan: Phillip Wallace is seven feet tall!
Philip Wallace: Yes, I've heard. Strikes out men by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he'd consume the Red Sox with fastballs from his eyes, and bolts of breaking balls from his arse.
[Yankee fans laugh]
Philip Wallace: I AM Philip Wallace! And I see a whole chat room of my fans, here, in defiance of signing Santana. You've come to argue about building from within, and building from within you are. What will you do with those prospects? Will you win with them?
Yankee fan: Against the Sox? No, we will try to sign Santana, and we will win.
Philip Wallace: Aye, fight and you may lose, sign Santana, and you may win... at least a while. And sitting in the stands, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the prospects, from this day to that, just for one WS? Or would you keep the prospects for one more chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our WS ring in 08, but they'll never take... OUR NEW DYNASTY!!!
Philip Wallace Go back to all the GM’s and tell them that the Yankees’ daughters and sons are yours no more. Tell them the prospects are staying. I AM Phil Wallace, and I will lead the Yankess back to GLORY!!!

Lets say that Joba lives up to his celing and the rest of the SP's live up to their floors, what rotation would we have for the next 10 years?

Joba #1
Phil #2
Wang #3
IPK#4
Horne#5

In that scenario we would have our #1, Phil would slid into the Andy Pettite late 90's spot as our stopper at #2 ( people have projected him as a #1 since he came out of HS ) . Wang would slide into his natural slot as a #2/#3, eating up tons of innings and saving the bullpen. IPK ( who I think can be a #2 ), would be a solid #4 starter also going deep into games ( great BB rate ) and also saving our pen. To round it out Horne ( who could be a #3 for most teams ) would follow suit as another solid SP. Now there is nothing wrong with that rotation. Sure you could stick Johan in there to make it better. But this rotation is cheaper and will be together longer.

In another three years guys like Brackman, Betances, Marquez, McCutchen would be ready to start. I see people complain about having too many SP and not enough spots...give me that problem any day! If any of those 4 turn out to be great, awesome!! We could have them battle out Horne and IPK in the spring for a spot. We would obviously keep 6 to have a backup SP, but the rest we can then trade away to fill any holes we may have at that time. If we package these lower level prospects into a deal as throw in players, we dont know how they will turn out. Look at the trade the SF giants and Twins made a couple years back.

Twins trade

AJ Perzinski ( one of the top C at the time )

SF trade

Joe Nathan
Boof Bonser
Francisco Liriano

Liriano was a throw in player at the end of the deal. Now he's considered one of the best SP's in the league. By the way, a year later, AJ left the Giants.

My point being that over time these throw in players value will increase and we can use them at larger chips down the line while our 3 horsemen develop into a possible Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. Who knows? No probable, but possible.

Let me put this another way. Back in 93/94 would you guys have traded Andy Pettite and Bernie Williams for Greg Maddux? I will use Greg Maddux as an example because at the time he was in his prime and winning CY Youngs ( best year was 94 at age 28 ). While Andy and Bernie were at similar points in their careers as Melk and Phil. Now Greg's was SOLID each year for the next 9 years. Whoever gets Johan can only wish for the same results as Greg had over the following 9 years after his 28th B day . On the flip side, if we keep Melk and Phil, we can only dream that their career paths are similar to Andy and Bernie's. So again, would you have traded young prospects Andy and Bernie for Greg Maddux? At the time that is an easy question, almost as easy as Phil and Melk for Santana. Knowing what we do 14 years later though, I would not have made that deal.

Thoughts??

I know the blog has been dead but now we're recycling old posts?

LOL...sorry Marianne, the "holding the fort" reference by Yank'dad'61 made me think of it. I promise it wont happen again me lady.

Hey Kat...my last post worked on the 1st try. Then I tried to post "HEY MY POST WORKED ON THE 1ST TRY!!!"...but it failed...lmao!!

So here is my...copy, refresh, paste...post. That always seems to work.

Probably true, Marianne.

Like I said last night, we've been debating this topic for two months and everyone has an opinion.

Most people aren't going to change their minds now.

Marianne - only the Braveheart rewrite was from a previous post. The rest of the material is fresh, well, maybe a little recycled. ; )

Another Yankee prospect list =

http://nomaas.org/

A little different top 20, they have Horne at #4 and IPK at #5 which I found interesting. Let me know what you guys think.

Yanks signed RHP Scott Strickland, LHP Heath Phillips, LHP Billy Traber, C Jason Brown and IF Nick Green to minor league deals.

Over at Riveraveblues.com they have quick notes on each player. They seem to be high on Heath Phillips and even have a quick youtube clip of him. Looks like a nasty breaking ball =

http://riveraveblues.com/2008/01/04/desalvo-phillips-sign-elsewhere-yanks-ink-a-different-phillips-1931/

Fastball, slider, changeup and curves.......Check out the interview with Phil Hughes after his last start of the season against the red hot D-Rays. 9/27/07 He talks about using ALL 4 PITCHES!!!

http://web.yesnetwork.com/media/archive.jsp?cat=media&oid=36019&y=2007&m=09

9/27/2007 | Phil Hughes
Hughes talks about getting the win on Thursday night.
Watch: 350K

9/27/2007 | 9/27: Hughes K's Gomes
Hughes K's Gomes for His 5th Of The Night.
Watch: 350K

Watch both clips, the Gomes one you hear Leiter talking about Phil using his slider and changeup a lot in the game. ( didnt like that 90 mph fastball at the end though..lol )

=========================

Let me flash you back....Game 2, at Cleveland, top of the 3rd inning and Carmona is dominating the lineup, score 0-0. Melky comes to the plate and works the count to 2-2, one out. Then Melk CRUSHES a slider deep into right field, must have hit it close to 400 ft, for the 1st hit of any Yankee so far . Im just saying guys......

Sure that was only one of three hits that he had in the series ( good for a .188 Avg ), but he only struck out once in 16 AB's. That has to be worth something, right guys? ; )

I think Im talking to myself here...so let me go take my nephew to Chuck-E-Cheese for lunch. Have a good one all!

One more thing....if you check out the Phil Hughes clips. Go down to 9/22 against TOR. You'll recall seeing Melks sick relay home to save a run in extra innings, then you will remember seeing Melk belt a line drive into right center to win the game in the bottom of that inning. I know its just one game, but over 162 games people will tend to forget some of the good things players have done. Sometimes I believe people get down on a player and only see his failures. Take A-rod for example, some people's perception is that he cant hit with runners on. Meanwhile =

2007
Runners on = .329
RISP = .333
RISP w/2Out = .318
Basesloaded = .500

2006
Runners on = ..293
RISP = .302
RISP w/2Out = .313
Basesloaded = .474

2005
Runners on = .305
RISP = .290
RISP w/2Out = .302
Basesloaded = .438

Some Yankee fans dont see his 30% sucess rate, they see his 70% failure rate. Perception about what a player does, sometimes differs from reality.

Have a good one all!

the one thing that i find difficult to get over is all the talk on every blog about the concern everyone had with hughe's ramatic loss in velocity. does everone remember the concern going across these boards - not to mention the constant analysis on sportscenter and BBT.

like everyone else, i tend to believe that the velocity loss was directly caused by his leg injuries, but what happens if has genuinly lost velocity or if it was overate from the beginning. if he is throwing 92 MPH at the all-star break and still hasnt develped anything esemblng a change-up, do we start regrettingnot making the eal?

With regar to Santana, sine he does not rely on a breaking ball he i at much less risk for injury than a pither who thows a curve as his out-pitch (see hughes). As time passes he will lose veloit, but will still see success as a lefty in Yankee Stadium (old or new) because as a lefty fly ball pitcher he will be ideal for the big outfield. finally, keep in mind that whle he has led the league in iinings pitched a couple of years - he has never thrown over 120 pitches in a game - EVER. that is particularly impressive for a strike-out pitcher and shows that the outs he gets in play are done so early in the count. when he gets older and stops striking out as man people - he is sure to be economial in his pitching therefore keeping him healthy. of all the 29 year old starters - he defenitly has the best chance of staying healthy over the next 6 or 7 years. quite frankly, based on their pasts and style of pitching, he has a better chance of staying healthy over the next 5 years than joba or hughes.

for me, this move is a no-brainer for me because it sets them up for the next 6 years. the best way to build a rotation is to start at the top and go down from there. santana sets everone up pefectly to move into their slots

As for a replacement in center - i have heard cameron mentioned. i am okay with him, but do not see him getting 10 million - secondly i would rather go with corey patterson who was once looked at as the next great thing. he would be a servicabe cf with great speed and a little pop and who know - maybe he finally realizes some of his potential ebing hidden in the yankee line-up

DRU - Thanks for pointing out the prospect list on Nomaas. The list and Nomass' comments on those prospects are enough to make any Yankee fan drool!

I like the rotation that you posted at 10:41 as well!

That, or some other combination of those you mentioned and others in the pipeline, is what the future is all about. It's like you said before, the guy you toss into a trade (Liriano?!) could wind up being the pitcher who comes up biggest. Who can say until they've all had a chance to develop a little further. And, as you point out, you can never have a surfeit of pitching. If the Yanks reach the stage where they do indeed have an excess of recognized young guns, they're definitely going to bring back far more in a trade when their value is better defined.

Getting Santana is a NO BRAINER if all it costs is Melky, Hughes, and a lesser prospect! Santana IS PROVEN the best SP in the AL, he's 28 and LH. Hughes MIGHT BE this or that, time will tell. But, the BEST he COULD HOPE TO BE is equal to a Santana. LOGIC dictates we make this move. And, as far as the salary, that's not even an issue because as Jim A says, the Yanks print their own money AND tons of dead weight come off the books next year. Leave your sentimental emotions out of it and it is a clear business NO BRAINER.

Medieval China: Soulstealing

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Soulstealing.htm

In China, eighteenth century and earlier:

Possibly because of feng shuei, carpenters and masons were associated with sorcerers. Proper ritual construction of homes was essential. It was believed that bridge-builders could steal a man's soul by clipping off his queue, or take a woman's soul by clipping a piece of her collar; the stolen soul was placed on a piling of a bridge under construction and hammered into the river-bed, killing the victim but ensuring a sturdy bridge. Soulstealers were believed to operate in gangs, paying petty thieves to collect pigtails, with evil sorcerers lurking somewhere to use the stolen souls.

The Lu-pan-ching was a popular carpentry manual in Ch'ing times; it contained rules for proper ritual construction, but also baleful charms for builders to hide atop rafters or under floors; and also charms to be used against such evil builders. This manual was thought so powerful that when a copy was sold, the bookseller always faced away from the book; anyone who opened the pages had to inflict magical harm on someone, or else himself suffer. From this book:

1. "A drawing of a broken tile inscribed with "Ice melts" . Appended is a charm: 'A piece of broken tile, a jagged edge, hidden in joint of roof-beam, husband die and wife remarry, sons move away, servants flee, none will care for the estate.'" (To be hidden in a joint of the main roof-beam.)

2. "A drawing of an ox-bone. The charm: 'In center of room hide ox-bone, life-long toil, life's end death but no coffin, sons and grandsons will shoulder heavy burdens.'" (Bury under center of room.)

3. "A drawing of a knife among coils of hair. The charm: 'A sword worn in the hair. Sons and grandsons will leave and become monks. Having sons who found no families, perpetual misery. Widow and widower, orphaned and childless, do not forgive each other.'" (Bury under threshold.)

4. "When building a house, various kinds of carpenters, masons, and plasterers will plot to poison, curse, and harm the owner. On the day when the roof-beam is raised, offer a sacrifice of the three types of animal, laid out on a horizontal trestle, to all the gods. Then recite the following secret charm of Master Lu Pan : 'Evil artisans, do you not know that poisons and curses will rebound upon yourselves, and bring no harm to the owner?' Then recite seven times: 'Let the artisan meet misfortune.' 'I have received the proclamation of the Supreme Ruler ordering that I shall suffer no harm from others, and that all will redound to my good fortune: an urgent decree.' Burn copy of charm in private place, especially where no pregnant woman can see you. Mix ashes with blood of black and yellow dog, then dissolve in wine. On day main roof-beam is raised, serve to builders . He who is plotting sorcery will himself receive the harm. ."

Medieval China: Soulstealing

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Soulstealing.htm

In China, eighteenth century and earlier:

Possibly because of feng shuei, carpenters and masons were associated with sorcerers. Proper ritual construction of homes was essential. It was believed that bridge-builders could steal a man's soul by clipping off his queue, or take a woman's soul by clipping a piece of her collar; the stolen soul was placed on a piling of a bridge under construction and hammered into the river-bed, killing the victim but ensuring a sturdy bridge. Soulstealers were believed to operate in gangs, paying petty thieves to collect pigtails, with evil sorcerers lurking somewhere to use the stolen souls.

The Lu-pan-ching was a popular carpentry manual in Ch'ing times; it contained rules for proper ritual construction, but also baleful charms for builders to hide atop rafters or under floors; and also charms to be used against such evil builders. This manual was thought so powerful that when a copy was sold, the bookseller always faced away from the book; anyone who opened the pages had to inflict magical harm on someone, or else himself suffer. From this book:

1. "A drawing of a broken tile inscribed with "Ice melts" . Appended is a charm: 'A piece of broken tile, a jagged edge, hidden in joint of roof-beam, husband die and wife remarry, sons move away, servants flee, none will care for the estate.'" (To be hidden in a joint of the main roof-beam.)

2. "A drawing of an ox-bone. The charm: 'In center of room hide ox-bone, life-long toil, life's end death but no coffin, sons and grandsons will shoulder heavy burdens.'" (Bury under center of room.)

3. "A drawing of a knife among coils of hair. The charm: 'A sword worn in the hair. Sons and grandsons will leave and become monks. Having sons who found no families, perpetual misery. Widow and widower, orphaned and childless, do not forgive each other.'" (Bury under threshold.)

4. "When building a house, various kinds of carpenters, masons, and plasterers will plot to poison, curse, and harm the owner. On the day when the roof-beam is raised, offer a sacrifice of the three types of animal, laid out on a horizontal trestle, to all the gods. Then recite the following secret charm of Master Lu Pan : 'Evil artisans, do you not know that poisons and curses will rebound upon yourselves, and bring no harm to the owner?' Then recite seven times: 'Let the artisan meet misfortune.' 'I have received the proclamation of the Supreme Ruler ordering that I shall suffer no harm from others, and that all will redound to my good fortune: an urgent decree.' Burn copy of charm in private place, especially where no pregnant woman can see you. Mix ashes with blood of black and yellow dog, then dissolve in wine. On day main roof-beam is raised, serve to builders . He who is plotting sorcery will himself receive the harm. ."

Again, Rick. Putting words in ALL CAPS isn't going to change anyone's mind at this point.

Those who favored a Santana trade two months ago are not going to change their mind. Same goes for those of us who are against it.

Frankly, it's a dead issue because they aren't going to pull the trigger.

Cashman and Hal oppose the move and so do the vast majority of Yankee fans.

Let's move on and talk about something else because it ain't gonna happen.

Pronouncements again.

The only thing missing is the words "I guarantee you..." -- oh, wait, that's another poster...

Dead blog.

Maybe it would be better to come back around Valentine's Day.

Kat, surely that will be more than enough time to get this silly, unnecessary code business disposed of???

Viper

I was under the impression that Kat, at the start of this thread, ASKED us for our views on Santana. So I gave mine which I am entitled to, by the way! And, the caps are merely to "highlight" the points of LOGIC for making the deal. Also, I see nothing much has changed on here...

Viper,
Sometimes CAPS are used to point out the differences when comparing players, teams etc. Last night when I capitalized PRIME, I was trying to point out that this was different from the Randy Johnson type trades where the Yanks acquired old players. When I capitliized Left Handed, I meant to emphasize the point that the Yankees will have an all RH rotation and teams that contend usually need a LH starter.

You're a little sensitive to the caps, so I'll try NOT to use them in the future. :)

Also, Gene Michael and Hank want to pull the trigger on the Santana trade so I wouldn't go calling it dead yet.

Jim A

Once again, someone rational who "gets it" as far as my use of caps. They are just my way of "highlighting" certain words for comparative purposes. Just like yourself, I use them to clarify age, LH, etc. to point out that these are the key facts to consider when doing the evaluation. I am so glad you are on here! We could use a few more like you.

Greetings from TITLE TOWN.

New Year.....SAME THING !!!!

PATS RULE
CELTICS DONT LOSE
SOX ARE CHAMPS AND LOADED
yanks have no ace! no bullpen!

p.s what channel are the jets on? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Fellow fans, I am going to ask something that you may not want to take seriously, but this has been on my mind. Please ignore it if you don't like the topic. You needn't bash me for bringing it up since I won't do it again anyhow.

I have been listening lately to some 'cool jazz' from the Fifties. Some very great recordings were made by some very great musicians who unfortunately were addicted to heroin. At that time some musicians believed that they improvised better under the influence of the drug, although later that belief was discounted and it was thought that they had ruined their lives, families and health, and faced serious legal problems, for something that probably didn't help their music at all.

When I make my 'all-time greats' list from those times, should I omit titles reputed to have been made under the influence of heroin?

Is this question substantially different from one about rating the performances of baseball players alleged to have taken illegal drugs that were alleged to improve performance?

People from all walks of life take drugs because they believe drugs