On the Yankees beat

I like Ensberg ... he was a stud in 2005 (.283, 36 HR, 101 RBI) but hasn't been the same since tearing a tendon in his right shoulder diving for a foul ball in June 2006. I'm guessing an injury like that takes a significant amount of time to heal (so if we chalk up 2007 as a recovery year) we may very well have a nice sleeper on our hands for 2008. The major problem? he's really only been a 3B thru his career so can he play 1st??? (he struggled a bit at 1b when he was w/ SD last year).

Between 1b, LF, CF + DH Girardi is gonna have his share of headaches. Poor Shelly Duncan + Wilson Betemit won't see the light of day I'm guessing

(I apologize to those who have already read this ie-Lacock)

Hawkins + Ensberg + Abelegheodejho + Lane?...Hell of an Offseason!!!

Woohoo!!!

Loosing Santana sucks but I'd be far less irritable if we could've at the VERY LEAST added an 8th inning guy!!

To clarify, when I say "8th inning guy" I mean a guy who closed last year on a crap team who could do one or both of the following...

1. Free Joba from his likely pen return in 08.

(I'm sorry but I'd put the odds of Joba actually starting for us THIS YEAR just a smidge above Carl Pavano's chances of doing the same...I'm sorry but the whole thing has a Papelbonesque stink on it.)

"Joba came to me and asked to be returned to the pen...We didn't force him. He thought he could help the team more in the pen and you have to respect a kid his age being so mature blah blah blah..." -Joe Girardi

2. Free Joba from being the inevitable "Successor to Mo"

Again I have a very bad feeling about this...
From all I've read, I've begun to buy into the "As a starter he's been compared to Justin Verlander..."

It's going to SUCK SUCK SUCK to think the "ACE" that Jim A, Myself, and many others have been harping on the need for a true #1 etc...To think JOBA MAY BE THAT GUY yet would be wasted by default trying to fill Mariano's shoes?

I would be SICK!!!

Seriously though...

With all this goddamned farm system hype would it have killed Cashman to put together a package to pry away say...

-Huston Street
-Joe Nathan (oooooh that would be sweet)

or atleast...

-Kevin Gregg
-Brad Lidge

I WILL BE FURIOUS IF JOBA IS AS GOOD AS THE "EXPERTS" SAY AND WINDS UP IN THE F$%KING BULLPEN!!

THAT IS A CRIME!!!

PS. Please spare me the Melancon/Sanchez/Betances argument.

With Joba doing what he did last year HE WILL BE MO's REPLACEMENT.

PPS. I am being a bit of a cry baby sorry about the bitching and moaning...

"Whoa is me...Why couldn't Joba have a left handed twin brother..." -The poor Yankee fan *Stomping his feet in a tantrum*

;-)

I'm just a little emotional right now having lost out on Johan.

Mike, the Melancon/Sanchez/Betances argument is probably the best hope to keep Joba in the rotation. That coupled with Rivera maintaining his health and effectiveness and Chamberlain pitching like an ace. Street or Nathan or another good closer isn't likely to be made available, at least to us. Hopefully someone will emerge this year to be the '8th inning guy' with future closer potential. The abundance of good young arms improves our chances of finding someone to develop. I think they want Joba to be a starter.

They absolutely want Joba to be a starter and it makes the most sense for the future of this ballclub.

You don't put someone with four solid pitches in his arsenal in the pen. His curve and change are both average right now but will get better the more he works on them. He didn't throw them often last season because he was so dominant in the minors with the slider and fastball and he didn't throw them much at all once he was sent to the pen.

It's not going to happen overnight, but the pen will have a ton of young talented arms that are going to get their chances to win jobs.

If you review some of the best pens in the league last season (SD, ARI, SEA, CLE, etc.) - they were often comprised of young kids who failed as starters and came out of nowhere to be reliable arms.

Spending tons of money on relievers is almost always a waste and Nathan sure as hell isn't coming to the Yanks. He is a premier closer, not a setup guy.

I tried 15 X's to post witout luck. So, If this gets through. I'll just say goodby until the system is fixed. Its been a great 2 seasons.

The good thing is if Joba fails as a starter then his return is evident , we don't know what his mind set is so stop trying to do such maybe he has the pen mentallity and wants to return so again stop trying to be judge and jury.

maybe he realize why pitch every 5t hday and possibly lose your lead due to a weak pen while you can help win 5 games a week with his assist.

I hear you Mike and Peter, Joba would be a solid closer. HOWEVER he is needed more as our #1 starter. If he becomes our ace, the rest of the guys fit into their natural spots.

Joba
Phil
Wang
Ian
?? Horne, Marquez, Brackman, Betances...plenty to fill this spot.

We have to look at it from a, here's that phrase again....LONG TERM perspective. Joba threw the least amount of innings between Phil and Ian. Ian had the most and is ready to make the leap to 180. Phil is ready for about 160. Joba may be able to touch 160, but we would be better served to keep him a little lower. I think thats the main reason he would start the year in the pen. If he goes to the pen for the 1st two months then his innings should look like this...

April = 15
May = 15
(starter)
June = 30
July = 30
August = 30
Sept = 30

Thats 150 innings right there. That would allow him to be available for a couple starts in Oct, if we are lucky enough to make it that far. I dont see a problem with that scenario. We would HAVE to move him to the rotation at that time no matter how great he was the 1st two months. If not then we have to go through this same crap next year. As far as an 8th inning guy...there will be a WIDE open competition for that spot.

Street
Nathan

Im sure the Yanks asked about both, Im also sure that the price was VERY high. Nathan will be a FA next season and will be looking for a MO contract. Street has yet to make it through an entire season without an injury. The Phils didnt give up much to get Lidge, so we may have been able to go that way. Gregg had a good year last season, but that was in spacious FLA. He was pretty average when he was in the AL on the Angels. I dont think he would survive in NY. Im all for trying to find that guy, via our own system.

I really think Sanchez is going to be a force in 09. I dont think people realize how good Sanchez is. He was ranked ahead of Verlander and Zumaya in Detroit's system. Melancon and COX were forces at closer ( COX was the setup man for Street in College then took over the closers role and excelled ).

I agree that we do not have any sure things for the 8th inning, but we may find that guy over the next 9 months. Im willing to wait that out instead of signing on Dotel or some other scrub for big money.

1st try = 796522

As far as Ensberg. I think the Yanks needed another REAL threat from the right side. Over his career Ensberg has killed LHP =

.284 Avg.....406 OBP....530 SLG....937 OPS

Those are all excellent numbers. Ideally I would like to have Shelly and Giambi sharing 1st base. Matsui as the DH. Then when we face a tough lefty the lineup would look like this.

Damon - L
Jeter - R
Abreu - L
Arod - R
Posada - S
Cano - L
Ensberg - R
Shelly - R
Melk - S

Sticking Shelly at 1B and Morgan as the DH gives the Yanks great flexibilty and pop when facing a lefty. Then when we face a RHP, Matsui and Giambi go into the lineup. On top of that we have Wilson on the bench who can play any position, is a switch hitter and has pop in his bat. I love the move and I think Joe will mix it up. Our bench will have TONS of power no matter who is starting. This move ensures that Lane will start out at AAA unless he lights up SP. I love it, three power bats on the pine at all times, look for lots of mixing and matching late in the game by Girardi. Joe's NL experience will pay off for us this season.

1st = 275817

DRU,

The Yanks have stated that If either of the young guys make the starting rotation they will not allow them to go beyond 150 IP. That came from Cashmans mouth which is always subject to change at his own convenience.

And WOW, 2 guys that haven't had a successful complete season and you have projected as #1 and #2 starters. Aren't you jumping the gun and getting away from letting them be .500 pitchers first?

I think the Yanks are hoping Ensberg has a decent spring so they can trade him for bullpen help.

Larry: You're doing something wrong. It should never take you more than two attempts to get your thoughts posted.

1. Write your post
2. Copy it (highlight it, and hit Control+C).
3. Type code, hit post
4. If it gets shot down, go back to original entry
5. Refresh your screen
6. Paste post (Control+P), enter new code and hit Post.

I've never had to do this more than one time. Don't go away! You're one of "our gang"!

First attempt...406108

Way to twist up my statements Nudge...lol. Our discussion yesterday was about this year. My projections for Joba as the #1 and Phil as the #2 is after they get some experience and get their innings up..notice no Andy or Moose?. That rotation of

Joba
Phil
Wang
Ian
???

Is at least two years away, if it ends up being the 09 rotation GREAT! Im expecting that to be our rotation starting in 2010. This year the focus is on getting the innings up and staying healthy. Next year is more of the same, but also focusing on the secondary pitches. Then starting in 2010, they should ALL be ready to hit 200 innings and start their dominate stretch. These things take some time Nudge...give these kids a break will ya. Dont be "that guy" that boos one of the young kids in April or May for have a stretch of 3 crappy games. There is going to be an adjustment period for some or all of these kids, there's no way around it. Jesus Yankee fans are the god damn most impatient fans on the face of the earth. Weve been spoiled way too long. Most Yankee fans view of a long term plan is ‘thinking’ about making a deal before seasons trade deadline in July.

1ST - 406108
2ND - 445141

KAT - it happened again, my post failed because Jim A used that security code already. CC the tech guys.

1st - 793199

DRU,

I know that. No twisting at all. But before you complete step 2, at least get through step 1...the .500 stage. Remeber last year after one 7 inning performance in Texas you all had Hughes in the Hall. Jumped the gun on that one a bit I would say. By the end of the season the talk was more along..."what is it the scouts all saw that made them so highly rated".

Let Hughes and Joba :

1) Make the team
2) Make the starting rotation
3) Have a successful full year (by whatever definition yoy want)
4) Then project them 2 years from now

You guys are hilarious with slotting in future lineups with guys that are in A ball and rotations with guys you've never seen but read a 3 sentence blurb from a Yankee scout. Show me!

A little Missou phrase to tickle Ant.

Nudge: Missing the point again on someone's post. DRU's projection for the starters was not for this year. That was pretty obvious considering Pettite's name was excluded and to a lesser extent, so was Mussina's. So, he's projecting for a 2009 or 2010 rotation. I mean, if Betances or Brackman reach their respective ceilings, both are more than a number 5 pitcher, but will be eased along. The expectations of Phil/Joba/IPK this year are not the same as the longer term expectations.

DRU: I do disagree and think that Phil will be better long term than Joba. Just my thoughts though.

1st try - 446141
2nd try - 995222
Kept refreshing and getting the same code that wasn't working...

My guess is that breaking camp it will be:

CF - Melky
LF - Damon
DH - Matsui
1B - Giambi, they'll use Betemit or someone else for late inning D

a few weeks in, Giambi will get hurt and Duncan or whomever is hot in AAA will take over.

Torre's thing was negotiating big egos - won't be the case this time.

ESPN's Keith Law ranks baseball's 100 top prospects 5 Yankees are in it (Joba, Tabata, Jackson - top 25; Kennedy (46) Brackman (100)

1st & 2nd tries both have the same code 233245

DRU,

Also I am not the booing type. The only players I will ever boo are the ones who don't try or hustle, the opposition (and cheaters like Roger Clemens of course).

As stated previously I am an Eli fan and chose to be patient. Looks like thats paying off fine now in spite of all the booing. I never saw much value in booing your own team. If they stink, don't buy a ticket. If you bought a ticket and got bad value, boo yourself for a bad decision. Booing doesn't motivate anyone even though the booers think it does.

Players we haven't seen? Let's see, I went to MANY Thunder games last year, 2 SWB games, 2 SI games, and one game in Tampa. This year, I'm hoping to add Charleston into my run because I think that there will be a lot to get excited about down there. So, I'm pretty sure I've gotten a good chance to see a number of the prospects that are talked about. Add in YouTube and other sources on the internet and there is some great footage of most of the Yankees' prospects.

1st try - 148531
2nd try - 454040

HYD,

Keep up with the conversation because I hate having to repeat myself to the stragglers who just want to be contrarians and invent there own reality of what I say.

HYD,

Yeah i scouted my nephews team in the Tri-Village little league and have projected 3 pitchers and 8 position players into the 2015 Yankee lineup. Wanna hear who they are?

I hate the show me state. ; )

What are we supposed to talk about then Nudge? Do you want me to project every FA that the Yanks can pick up and add them to the lineup? The young guys are the only ones we can project into a future lineup because those are the only players that are actually on our team. Do you want me to look at every players contract and determine who will be available when, and who is a good candidate to be traded before their contracts expire? Then factor in guys like Danny Haren who are 3 years from FA, but get traded anyway? If you know a better method for determining the Yankees lineup in 2010 and beyong..please let me know. From your standpoint we can only talk about previous years and the current year until players "show you" what they are made of. Can we not project how young guys will do? Go back three years and none of these players existed to you.

Prince Fielder
Ryan Howard
Grady Sizemore
Paps
Granderson
Reyes
Wright
Hanley Ramirez
Troy Tulowitzki
Verlander
Hamels
Chase Utley was a scrub that hasnt proven anything
Carmona
Matt Holiday was garbage

the list goes on and on. With your thinking you would have traded away these players and MANY more who have emerged over the past 3 years for proven vets on the downside of their careers. Then the team that got these gems, would be laughing with joy a couple years down the line just because you couldnt wait.

Would you have given up on =

Jake Peavy
21 - 4.52 ERA 6 - 7
22 - 4.11 ERA 12-11

John Lackey
24 - 4.63 ERA 10-16
25 - 4.67 ERA 14-13

Im not just learning about these players with a couple lines. I go to every major scouting site, look at their bios, what the scouts have to say, watch clips of them....some will fail, others will emerge. Like Ive said, I expect the three kids to do well, but I wont give up on them if they have seasons like Peavy and Lackey did at the same age. If they start to do bad, you would be the 1st to say...SEE I TOLD YOU THEY WOULD BE CRAP..WHERE'S JOHAN!! I know its coming since thats your style. Ill be here, Ill take shots when the kids go through long stretches of getting hammered...maybe they even get sent back down to the minors to figure things out. That still doesnt change my mind that in the next 3 years these kids will be a terrific trio. What sucks is that by that time you will change your tune and probably purchase a 65 Jersey and claim how he’s your favorite SP. That’s OK Nudge, jump on and off the bandwagon as you see fit.

1st - 831718
2nd - 416671

Nudge: When I wrote the post, DRU hadn't called you out on it yet. I had to keep refreshing because of this posting system. If you read my post until the end, you'd know that. Which is why I then made my next post about watching games. I feel like you're one of those guys that argues that the sky isn't blue and the grass isn't green. You know, anything for an arguement.

1st try - 276880
2nd try - 416671

Names, addresses, and cell phone numbers would be great Nudge. Better yet, when and where do they play? I'll check them out myself. Think you can make a call and get me good seats?

3rd try - 806871

KAT - more evidence.

1st - 972762

DRU,

I just chose to wait and see people perform without projecting them 3 years down the road. Thats why I always chose the known player with a track record over the hyped never proven anything yet players you all drool over year in year out. This years crew is different from last years crew. The names change and no one even remembers the guy they were howling about 3 years ago. Are Joba, Tabata, Jackson etc this years Chase Wright and Ty Clippards? I dont know. But I will let them at least prove they are worthy of being participant before I crown them with success.

Let it play out and enjoy. Putting tremendous expectations doesn't make it more enjoyable, but instead amplifies the disappointment if they don't pan out. Also them you'll have to listen to me reminding you of those false expectations and you know how annoying I can be.

Enjoy Spring Training...rooting for the kids...cheer them along and hope they perform. After they get their feet wet and have success...then start the dream a little more.

HYD,

No seats, only a spot along the fence. And this post BS makes it difficult, I understand!

I can see that you would never go out on a limb unless you were certain the player would perform. OK, I can see why you would be skeptical about prospects, they are a dime a dozen, I havnt been on this blog long, but Im curious Nudge. Were you happy when the Yanks made the following moves =

Randy Johnson
Kevin Brown
Javier Vazquez
Carl Pavano
Raul Mondesi
Jason Giambi
Kyle Farnsworth

ALL these players had GREAT, not just good, but GREAT numbers before they came to the Yankees. Some are old, others were in the middle of their primes. Aside from Giambi's 1st year, none of those players amounted to a hill of beans after joining the Yanks. From your perspective, you should have loved each and every one of these pick ups. You harped on the people in here who were wrong about Chase Wright and Tyler Clippard ( not sure who was putting these guys on the same level as Joba, Phil and Ian since their numbers were NOWHERE NEAR the numbers the big three have put up in the minors and with brief stints in the majors ), can we also fire back at you for the above players? Cant have it both ways, your proven vets did NOTHING and got paid tons of money to do it. I see that as more of a failure than some prospect failing for league minimum.

So tell me Nudge, what move/pick have you liked? Did you hate on the people who touted Cano a couple years ago?

Enquiring minds would like to know…..

Dru/HYD...
Good thinking, nobody (except nut cases) think the 3 big guys will be HOF pitchers in their 1st year. If they pitch good, that's all we can expect. I think they will be better than just good, not great. I believe that is better then what we had last year, remember?
HYD...
I also, had the chance to see the big 3 in the MIL...about 4/5 times each. My goodness, they just shot the other teams down, as though they were HS kids. IPK, was actually the best of the three, look up his stats in the MIL/ML.
Unless there is an injury, they will hold their own very well, thank you. 27/08.

Guys,
The only time my code changes is when I refresh my screen after a post has been shot down and I click "return to original entry" or whatever that message is.

Good luck....

Rieber: Maybe you can take this valuable info to your IT dept. while Kat is vacationing: Repeat codes are causing crashes on this blog. When two people are on the page at the same time, the system assigns them the same code and the first one to click "post" wins and the other gets shot down and has to do a dance to get it right.
I'd stop by the IT dept. w/ a box of doughnuts, that always helps.

DRU,

The only ones of those I thought the Yanks made the right move on was Vasquez and Giambi. And Vasquez has performed everywhere except here. Giambi well we know that story. The Randy Jahnson and Kevin Brown signings made me laugh out loud to be honest. Also Mondesi. My Dodger friends loved him as much as the Philly fans loved Abreu....in other words good riddance.

Farnsworth was never viewed positively in the NL. A person who people always talked about his STUFF but never delivered. Pavano, I was actually so-so on. I didn't think he was anywhere near worth the money they gave him, but the Yanks always overpay. But I thought he would be OK for them...not great...OK.

See all those players I actually saw frequently because I watch all games...not just Yankee games. I knew that Johnson and Brown were done. I knew Farnsworth was a bust and Mondesi was numbers guy like Abreu is. Yankee fans need to branch out a bit more and stop having Yankee tunnel vision. Then you'll get past you American League East is the best viewpoint. BTW last summer I posted the stats the debunked that myth. The AL East has rarely had the best record with the NL East more often having a superior record. But enough on that one.

Being in NY I get to watch every Yankee and evry Mets game, plus whats on national broadcasts. I probably listen to 90%. I try not to comment on players that I haven't seen extensively. Not one game or two. Therefore I dont get on too many prospects bandwagons untilthey come up and perform a bit.

As to Cano, I was one of the few on this site early last year that was a supporter of his. When most wanted him traded I cautioned that they needed to give him time and that it would be a mistake.

OK, Nudge. Seems like we arent that far apart after all. BTW - I do watch all baseball games and follow other teams, not just the Yanks. I follow every player in the league since Im a HUGE fantasy fan. I look at currently MLB players and keep my eye on all the MiLB stars. Last year I had Lincecum, Gallardo, Braun and Hughes on my team...ended up winning that league. I do tons of projections for players across the country, seems to work since I win at least one of my leagues every year. ( Yahoo - 12 teams mixed - H2H....on my 7th year ). Not saying it to brag, just wanted you to know that I dont have tunnel vision for the Yanks or the AL East...Im a well rounded fan. ; )

I guess we will have to wait and see what happends.

PS. Im glad you arent the booooing type.

happends...lol

I really need to start proof reading my posts...how about I just quit my job and dedicate myself full time to baseball. Hey Kat, any openings???? lol

DRU,

Spelling doesn't count in blogging. More Yankee fans should get out of the box as you do. It also helps if you travel and talk to fans around the country, or have family elsewhere that gives you the feeling of a player. I had family in Philly and they HATED Bobby Abreu and cheered when the Yanks took him off their hands. He was looked on as a player that rarely came up big but always had good looking numbers. I call it the Kevin McReynolds tag.

My ball team is divided into Mets Yankee Dodger Boston Tiger and a few miscellaneous other fans. So i get good inputs from those fans too. In fact it was a Yankee fan that pointed out to me 2 years ago how Jeters range was diminshed. Surely enough as I watched it was true and it got worse last year. So other fans that watch constantly pick up things that me or you might not.

Good points on fandom Nudge/DRU. I'm getting an even broader perspective now that I've moved to Jersey and live halfway between Philly and NYC. I

Comments from Redsox Fans

http://www.soxandpinstripes.com/sox_and_pinstripes/2008/01/santana-to-mets.html#comments

lol. Hughes the best prospect in the bunch? Not quite. He's already been outperformed by Buchholz, Ellsbury and even a Jon Lester not at full strength. Hughes will likely be better than Kennedy, but time will tell if he has a better career than Buchholz, Ellsbury and Lester.

Posted by: Jeff | January 29, 2008 at 05:04 PM

If the deal is true, I'm happy as well. Get him away from the American League.

Time will tell if this is good for the Yankees or not, but the Sox already have a rotation they know is capable of delivering a trophy. And just think, we haven't even seen the best of Dice-K, Lester, or Buchholz...and Schilling's reinvention as a finesse pitcher certainly makes him intriguing for one more year.

Posted by: DRM | January 29, 2008 at 06:11 PM

Ellsbury had 116 AB
Buchholz had three starts
Lester has a career 4.68 ERA and has allowed 226 baserunners in 144.1 innings. Compared to 110 K. And yes, for the most part, not at full strength.

Hughes: 4.46 ERA, mostly not at full strength (he was hurt in his 3rd major league start). But had a 2.73 September, a 1.59 October and in 72.2 innings gave up less hits than innings pitched (64) and 100 baserunners. He also had 58 K, nearly the exact pace as Lester, but Lester is older.

How exactly was he being outperformed? Because Lester is 11-2 thanks to run support? Or because Buchholz has 22 innings pitched? Or Ellsbury is a position player with 20% of a season?

By those standards, Joba Chamberlain is better than everybody involved and Ian Kennedy's 1.89 ERA in his 19 innings makes him just as good as Buchholz who had a 1.59 ERA.

Again, Ellsbury (24) and Lester (24) have clearly shown they are better than Hughes (21) how, exactly?

Posted by: Vince | January 29, 2008 at 06:43 PM

This is huge for the Yankees, and heads off the one factor that could have really crushed them in 2008, Santana in Boston. Now they are at least even with the Sox, and that may be generous. Let's remember that only when the Yankees had literally historic injuries to their pitching in April and May (more different starters in their first 35 games than any team in ML history) did the Sox have any edge, and the Yanks were 12.5 games better the rest of the way-- with, it bears noting, essentially the teams that both will head into 2008 with. Beckett totally exceeded anything he'd done before, Dice was mediocre most of the season, Schilling can't get it over 86 mph or stay healthy... without Santana, the Yanks have every chance to match the Sox on the mound, and since they outscored the Sox by more than 100 runs and return their whole lineup, they now have an excellent chance to start a new division title streak...

Posted by: Moonlight Graham | January 29, 2008 at 06:45 PM

Oh yeah this is a great day for yankee fans alright. The yankees havent gotten out of the 1st round of the playoffs the last 3 years, there number one pitcher (Wang) lost 2 games to the indians in this past years playoffs, they have the same team as last year and they just passed on the best pitcher in baseball because they didnt want to trade a PROSPECT (Huges), who has yet to prove himself as a top pitcher. Hey, but look at the bright side, if the rookies dont pan out, theres always Igawa. What a joke Cashman is. I think everyone is missing the point here. The yankees werent trading for a 41 year old washed up pitcher. They were trading for the best pitcher in baseball. Hey Cashman, maybe Jared Wright will be available during the year when the Yankees are struggling to stay at 500. Well at least Cashman will be gone.

Posted by: Joe G | January 29, 2008 at 08:39 PM

Pavano, Igawa, Wang, Mussina, Pettitte in last years opening day rotation. Clemens later on.

Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, Kennedy, Mussina, Chamberlain in this years rotation....

Ummm, what was that about the same team? Look at Wang in '06 and '05 in the playoffs. Mussina is going from a 2-3 starter to a 5.

Damon is a split time player with Matsui. Giambi is a split time player as well. Wil Nieves is not the backup catcher and the bullpen has a higher ceiling.

This team also stands to probably not lose 7 starters in April or go into a two month swoon offensively since they actually have a bench.

Same team? What team were you watching in April of '07?

Posted by: Vince | January 29, 2008 at 08:45 PM

I haven't seen the comments get this hostile for awhile. Any Sox fan who says they're not worried about the Yankees is kidding themselves. We may have won it all last year, but the Yankees still beat us head to head, which doesn't sit well with me.

I think this trade was the best thing for these two teams. Both have good reasons to be optimistic for '08. Trades aren't over yet (in fact they've probably just begun).

But with all that said, the Red Sox were the best team in baseball in '07. Gloating time isn't over yet.

Posted by: Pat (SF) | January 29, 2008 at 10:06 PM

I couldn't care less that the Yankees beat us head to head last year...by that logic the Orioles and Devil Rays were better than the Yanks.

Also, Vince, it's hardly fair to judge Lester on numbers just yet...you're talking about a kid who was just months removed from his battle with cancer. I realize he pitched in '06 and his stats weren't great, but anyone who denies his talent hasn't been paying attention...he just needs to get his control, well, under control.

As for the Mets, they needed this deal to happen. Omar Minaya had to save face in a big way to show their fans the team is serious about rebounding after the biggest collapse in regular season history.

I love this...I see real potential for the World Series I've been clamoring for for several years now...the long overdue Red Sox-Mets rematch of '86

Posted by: DRM | January 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM

DRM, agree on the Mets.
It also makes no sense to bring tampa and baltimore into this, neither one is a playoff threat. I don't buy into regular season matchups (see Indians-Yankees 2007), but when you talk Yankees and Red Sox and you take note the two were seperated by just three games and were matched evenly head to head, it means they aren't in two different leagues of talent.

DRM, Hughes was hurt last year and wasn't the same when he came back until September, nowhere did any scout project Lester to be a future ace, nor was he ever the top talent in the minors, Hughes has been. Hughes and Buchholz? Make all the comparisons you want, but Lester is not on that level, unless you're prepared to throw Chamberlain on the same level.

Posted by: Vince | January 29, 2008 at 11:24 PM

I agree with DRM, Pat. Head to head doesn't matter. The Sox and Yankees usually play close (9-9 or 8-10. This year, the Sox are the better team heading into the regular season.

As for the debate about Hughes and the Sox top prospects, of course they all have a small sampling in the majors. That is why they are called prospects. I do agree that Hughes has more PR than any other prospect, but so far Buchholz looks like a better pitcher than Hughes, and no prospect could have a better start to their career than Ellsbury. Lester's main issue has been throwing too many pitches, which leads to walks, but the bottom line is he is a winner. The Sox feel like they are going to win when he steps on the mound, and I imagine he does, too. Game Four of the World Series certainly won't hurt that confidence. And Lester should have his velocity back this season. So far, Buchholz, Ellsbury and Lester have performed better than Hughes. All we hear about from Yankeeland is how great Hughes is. We're just waiting to see actual evidence on a Major League mound.

Posted by: Jeff | January 30, 2008 at 08:35 AM

I couldn't be happier with the outcome of this deal. The Sox get to keep Lester and Ellsbury, the Yankees don't get better, and Santana goes to the NL. The Twins got smoked on this deal, they won't see a return on this for a while, though it's better than the sandwich picks.

Posted by: rip | January 30, 2008 at 09:41 AM

If Santana had to go to NY, I am certainly glad it is to the Mets and not the Yankees....I am happy that the Sox don't have to deal Ellsbury, I was really worried it would come to that to get Santana. Frankly, I am surprised at the deal from Minnesota's point of view. I can't imagine that the deal the Mets made was better than what the Yankees and Red Sox were willing to part with...I guess time will tell. And I am equally surprised the Yankees didn't do all that was necessary to get Santana...maybe they are changing their ways! Who knew! I am curious to see the Yankees rotation...Mussina and Pettitte mostly. I am more confident with the Sox rotation in every way. It really does not matter about runs scored, the Yankees can score all the runs they want, in the end it is all about pitching....

Posted by: LMT | January 30, 2008 at 04:35 PM

You are half-right, LMT, pitching is the most important element, but it does matter how many runs are scored also. The Yankees scored over 100 runs more than the Sox last year, and neither team did anything to change that dynamic for this season. That's about 2/3 of a run a game more over the course of the season.

Last year the Sox were able to overcome that-- barely. By 2 games. And that was all in the first two months, when the Yanks pitching was in comical, historic disarray. You may be more confident about the Sox rotation, but there are equal questions on both sides and the edge, if there is one, has certainly shrunk. Mussina may not even make the Yankee rotation, a clear sign this is not your Igawa, Pavano, AA stop-gaps rotation of last year.

As for the Sox, the absolute best they can hope for from Beckett is to repeat last year, and since he had a 5+ ERA the season before and had never won more than 16 games in his career, there is much more downside than additional upside. Schilling is breaking down and unlikely to improve, Dice was a semi-bust before Oct, and Wake is a back-end guy at best...

Wang has won more games than anyone, including Beckett, the last two years, Pettitte was money, and the three kids all have far more upside than the bottom of the Sox rotation...

The Sox may have a pitching edge, but a lot needs to break right and it sure is no given... the Yankees significant offensive edge is a given. And it will matter...

Posted by: Moonlight Graham | January 30, 2008 at 05:22 PM

Vince, what do you mean scouts didn't consider Lester a future ace? They were virtually split 50-50 as to who had greater potential, Lester or Papelbon.

Moonlight Graham, Wakefield is indeed a back of the rotation guy...one who has won at least 16 games twice in the last 3 years...call it run support, but what other team can point to their 4th or 5th starter and think, "Well there's 15-17 wins right there." Wakefield is a tremendous testament to our pitching depth.

The predictions for the pennant race are always fun, but let's just see how things turn out. Yankee fans point to what they accomplished last year despite their dreadful first half, but these same fans don't seem to remember predicting the Sox would never make up the 11 game difference from 2006...we won 96 games, and it had little, if anything, to do with Yankee injuries.

Also, I just have this intangible feeling that this is still Boston's time. The Yankees for the most part dominated us from 1920 or so until 2003. The tide has turned, and I believe our day in the sun will continue for some time. But that's just emotion talking, which of course counts for nothing until the next championship is captured.

Posted by: DRM | January 30, 2008 at 06:21 PM

Moonlight, you sure do a good job of painting a really rosey picture for the Yankees and a grim scene for the Sox. Yes...offense matters...until the playoffs start...when the other team has good offense AND good pitching. Obviously the fact that the Yankees scored 100 runs more than the Sox didn't amount to a hill of beans once your starting pitchers imploded (except for Pettite, of course) against the Tribe.

Beckett is entering his prime years, and showed last season that he has matured into an actual pitcher, as opposed to someone just throwing 95 mph batting practice a la 06. Not to mention his sheer dominance in the post season. If you think that 07 was a fluke, I wonder about your baseball sensibilities. Even if he can't repeat his performance from 07, it's not likely to go down that much.

Wang may have more wins in the past few season, but he falls apart in the playoffs. Don't forget that Wang's win totals are inflated do to the potent Yankees offense. You conveniently left that little factoid out.

Even if Mussina isn't in the rotation at the beginning of the season, he'll get plugged in as soon as the three rookies hit their innings limit. At that point, probably around August-early September, what kind of rotation are the Yankees going to have if they make the playoffs? The Yankees FO won't gamble on the youngsters getting injured due to the fact that their starting pitching depth is thin. They may hit the pen, but it is a slim chance that even 2 out of the 3 rookies will be in the starting rotation at the end of the season. I can see the Yankees making a trade for a SP sometime during the season.

And how is that Yankee bull pen coming along? Still setting up with Farnsworth? What's his nickname again?

Dice-K could have easily won a few more with adequate run support, as he lost several 1-0 games. I'm sure he'll be having a better year, now that he knows what to expect, as well as not having to adapt to the cultural differances.

Schilling may not be a fire-baller anymore, but he has learned to pitch with more finesse, and you know he will have the extra determination to end his career with a bang.

Lester will enter camp with all of his strength from not having to battle cancer, no doubt you will see an improvement there. Wake will be Wake, pencil him in for his usual 12-15 wins.

We have rotation depth with Buchholtz, who obviously is regarded nearly or as highly as either Phil Hughes or Joba. Not a bad ace to have up your sleeve (no pun intended, lol).

You also don't mention that several Sox players (Drew, Manny, Coco, Lugo) had bad years at the plate, and they really underachieved with RISP all season long. Drew should make the adjustment this season, he showed flashes of his pre-07 self towards the end of the season, including one of the most pivotal hits of the season in the ALCS. One would think Manny will have a better year, though I suppose he could have a similar year. I wouldn't expect that he does much worse than last season. Coco will be replaced by the gamer Ellsbury, Lugo should make modest improvements as well. I'm willing to put money on the Sox offense scoring a bunch more runs this season. It may not reach Yankees run totals, but just as last season, the run differential should work out in the Sox' favor once again with the higher quality and depth of the Boston pitching staff.

Posted by: rip | January 30, 2008 at 06:58 PM

It's not so much that I'm painting a rosy picture for the Yanks as I am suggesting a little perspective. I find it hilarious how emboldened Sox fans are in claiming what they now perceive as a big and clear edge, especially in pitching.

First of all, kudos on the Oct title run. It means a lot, nice work. But remember, the 82 win Cards won the year before, so crazy things happen in Oct, and the 6 month season is a better indicator of the relative strengths of teams.

The Sox finished 10+ games out in 2006, and from late May on last season, finished 12.5 games worse than the Yanks. Their early lead was built on, quite literally, historic health issues for the Yanks pitching-- they had more different starting pitchers than any team in ML history through their first 40 games.

Once the Yanks got even remotely healthy, they were the MUCH better team the rest of the season. And the Sox impressive 10 day run after falling behind 3-1 to CLE notwithstanding, those are largely the same teams we both head into Opening Day with.

In terms of the improvements from the players you listed, sure, maybe a little. But remember, Drew has still NEVER driven in more than 100 runs in a season, and Lugo has never batted .300, so these guys have always been overrated, and can only improve so much.

You're right about the Yankee kids, inning counts will come into play. But, again, Moose might be our 6th starter, so we have depth we could only dream about last season.

I'm not talking any big smack here. All I'm saying is, look long and hard at last season and how things are shaking out this season before making any big proclaimations about the Sox having leapfrogged the Yanks. It just isn't there, other than a nice 10 day streak against a fading Tribe and the rusty Rox...

Posted by: Moonlight Graham | January 30, 2008 at 07:27 PM

I would say that Beckett was superior to Wang this last season. Wang fell apart 2 times in the playoffs against Cleveland, in part due to Torre's ridiculous decision to start him on short rest in his second game. Beckett was the pitcher that brought the Sox back from the brink and they went on to win it alll= after that. So, if I were betting money, my money is clearly on Beckett all the way. Now, it will certainly take more than Beckett to win it all come October, everyone knows that. But I still think the odds are in the Sox favor, maybe not by much, but they are. They Yankees have not made significant improvements this off season, unless you consider the resigning of ARod an improvement, and many would argue it is not...he certainly has not helped in the post season when it mattered. And the team is another year older at this point. I don't see their pitching any better than the Sox at this point in time. You can mask poor hitting and defense with a good supporting cast (for awhile anyway), but it is impossible to mask pitching when it isn't good.

Posted by: LMT | January 30, 2008 at 07:56 PM

lol. A fading Tribe and the rusty Rox. I love it how a Yankees fan tires to diminish an impressive post-season performance by Boston. The Indians had a 3-1 lead, and the Sox rallied for the series win. The Indians didn't fade. They were beaten by the better team who performed in the clutch as they did in 2004. The Rockies were exceptional through September and the NL Playoffs. They were overmatched in the World Series by a Boston team that was clearly better.

Also, you mention that the Sox were 12.5 worse than the Yankees from late May on. Well, if you haven't noticed, it is a 162-game season. The regular season begins in April (actually March this year), not late May. It matters how a team performs in April, just as it matters how a team performs in September. Every game counts, which is where Boston's pitching depth will help again in 2008. The Sox had a exceptional start last year, had ups and downs and then played well again when it counted most.

Posted by: Jeff | January 30, 2008 at 11:02 PM

Also, when are Yankees fans going to learn that you can't match stats player by player when comparing teams. It's the "team" that matters most. I said it last year, and not much has changed. The Yankees are a collection of players while the Red Sox are a team. I would much rather be in Boston's state than the Yankees state.

Posted by: Jeff | January 30, 2008 at 11:06 PM

As for Lester, he has the tools to be a No. 1 or No. 2 on many teams. His velocity should return to normal this season (93-95), which should make his off-speed pitches and breaking balls even more effective. All Lester has to be in Boston is a No.4 caliber starter, which he is already. He is plain and simple a winner. He will only get better with experience, so get accustomed to seeing Ws by his name in games he starts.

Posted by: Jeff | January 30, 2008 at 11:10 PM

Yes, crazy things happen in October...that's why they play the games. But to say that next year's Yankees could win it all based on the 82 win Cards is preposterous. The Cardinals won the NLCS and WS with great pitching performances. Not ncessarily great pitchers, though Carpenter is pretty good, and Suppan can be good ocasionally. Yankees pitching has not gotten the job done the last few post seasons. Not to say that the Yankees pitchers couldn't have had good performances...that remains to be seen. But, if you want to base future performances on past performances, Wang cannot be counted on. Mussina cannot be counted on. The rookies most likely will not be there. You can obviously count on Pettite...there's 1 out of 5 starters that a Yankee fan can trust, as of now, to win a game in October.

When I said Drew and Lugo would improve, I didn't say either of them would have a career year like you are implying. I merely meant to say that they couldn't get much worse. Ditto for Coco, if he stays with the team. Lowell will have a drop in production coming off a career season.

I wouldn't necessarily say the Yankees were the better team down the stretch, they obviously weren't the last team playing in October. They had to play their tails off just to make it to the play offs, and had nothing left once they got there. Let's face it, the Indians (whom the Yankees owned during the regular season) beat the Yankees in pretty convincing fashion in the ALDS, save for game 2. Then the Sox beat the Indians, though I think the Sox and Indians were nearly even. That series was a matter of which team got hot and got the breaks at the right times, as much as it was about domninant pitching performances.

And if you say the 6 month regular season is a better indicator of the relative strengths of teams, why are you even trying to say the Yankees and Sox are even? Didn't we win the division and have the best record in baseball (along with the Indians, of course)?

Posted by: rip | January 30, 2008 at 11:14 PM

Same fanbase that said the only reason the Sox didn't make the playoffs and finished in third was because of injuries. The Yankees face epic injury proportions for two months int he regular season to BEGIN the season, not end it and all of a sudden it's an excuse and baseball is 162 games blah blah blah no excuses! Please.

Wang never gets it done in the playoffs? Try mlb.com Before this postseason look at his games, he may have one win, but then again, that makes Johan Santana a bad pitcher too, doesn't it?

Collection of players? Hmm, the Yankees can't get old, can't get young, can't draft foreign players, can't bring up homegrowns, can't have too many rookies, can't have too little rookies, can't have too many free agents-OK, we get it, there is no solution to please a Red Sox fan in regards to the Yankees roster. 13 homegrowns downt he stretch last year was not enough, the chance of 13 starting on this opening day roster makes them a collection of players too. In fact, new rule: all Yankees homegrowns, free agents, veterans and rookies are a collection of players. Boston produces Pedroia, we produce Melky. One is a 4th outfielder "at best" and the other is a gritty "team player".

I mean, at what point does this rhetoric seem ridiculous to even the most optimistic sox fan?

Lester will finally be at full strength, much like Crisp was finally at full strength with his two year hand injury, oh, and put up the same numbers.

But Hughes? No, he's underachieivng and not as good as Buchholz because he made up his popped hamstring AND ankle injuries, those don't need recovery time. Wang? Lucky on his 19 wins, forget the fact he also missed a month, he's a lucky guy, not like Lester though, Lester is just turning into an ace, something Wang isn't because Wang is lucky.

Beckett? Chalk him up for 20 wins every single season, because all aces win 20 games every year. Dice K? Automatically better because he's asian and needed to adjust, forget the rest of asian pitcher history where their best seasons are immediate, Dice-K is too good for that logic.

Schilling? Completely different pitcher, he's ageless and now a finesse guy so the league can't adjust to his worse velocity and he will actually be healthier than the DL trips he takes every year. Mussina? Can't be a six starter, he can't adjust, he's finished, he wasn't better than Schilling as recently as 2006. Kennedy? 200 innings inning cap. I don't know what we will do now. Playoff rotation? Lucky Wang, Pettitte, Hughes who split time with Mussina and will be under his innings and Kennedy, who again, has a tight cap of 200 innings. Joba is probably a setup man finishing his cap, which means our bullpen, you're right, is lead by Farnsworth.

A-Rod? 4/15? He can't hit in the playoffs, no wait, he can't hit in the clutch in the playoffs, no wait, he can't win games in the clutch in the playoffs, no wait-are we done yet?

Lowell? Chalk him up for 100 rbi again, that was complete logic and he doesn't geta year older like the Yankees do, neither does Manny or Varitek. Manny Delcarmen? Only can happen to the Sox, Ohlendorf, Veras, any of the slew of pitchers in the minors poised to be ready soon, those guys can't pull a Delcarmen, they're from the Yankees farm and New York farms have never produced a good reliever, particularly closers.

Seriously, are we kidding?

Posted by: Vince | January 31, 2008 at 12:41 AM

Trying to say that "there is much more downside than additional upside" to Beckett is ridiculous for one reason: the guy is 27!! He's entering his prime. Yeah, it may not be the exact stats of last season, but there's no reason to think he'll fall off drastically.

And Vince....you might want to watch it with the racial comments. Sox fans are hoping Daisuke gets better because he needed to adjust; his ethnicity has nothing to do with it. The same would be said for any player who has not played in the US Major/Minor League system. If they haven't played in the system before, there's always going to be adjustment. I'm guessing you weren't trying to come off badly with your comment, but seriously now. Food for thought, Vince.

Posted by: Megan | January 31, 2008 at 01:23 AM

"Same fanbase that said the only reason the Sox didn't make the playoffs and finished in third was because of injuries. The Yankees face epic injury proportions for two months int he regular season to BEGIN the season, not end it and all of a sudden it's an excuse and baseball is 162 games blah blah blah no excuses! Please."

Uhh, aren't both fanbases using this excuse now? Do you know what the differance is, Vince? The Yankees injuries occured early in the season, allowing them time to make up ground. By the time the Sox got hit, the Yankees were already breathing down the Sox' neck in August, not leaving any time to recover. The explanation is the same on both sides: not enough lineup depth.

"Wang never gets it done in the playoffs? Try mlb.com Before this postseason look at his games, he may have one win, but then again, that makes Johan Santana a bad pitcher too, doesn't it?"

You're comparing WANG and SANTANA in the playoffs? Puhlease! Yes, they have the same record at 1-3. What you conveniently leave out is the ERA: Wang ERA = 7.58, Santana ERA = 3.97.

"Boston produces Pedroia, we produce Melky. One is a 4th outfielder "at best" and the other is a gritty "team player"."

Good comparison. Pedroia earns ROY, hits for a 317 ave and 380 obp regular season, and bats at a 345 ave in the ALCS. All while playing some stellar defense. Melky has yet to break a 280 ave, though he does play some solid outfield. Lots of scouts (ie. baseball people who know more than you and me) say that he isn't any better than a fourth outfielder. But Sox fans shouldn't be biased towards Red Sox players and should consider even inferior players of other teams equal. Right.

"Schilling? Completely different pitcher, he's ageless and now a finesse guy so the league can't adjust to his worse velocity and he will actually be healthier than the DL trips he takes every year"

Schilling experienced more success last season after he came back from the DL, putting up a 3.48 ERA in August, 3.16 in September, and a 3.00 during the post season run. Why shouldn't I believe he will have more success for a while with that style? I'm sure the hitters haven't adjusted to it yet, and I'm also sure that Schilling probably hasn't perfected the new technique to it's fullest yet. Plus everyone knows Schill is a competitor, he'll want to go out with a bang. And though you're right that he probably will see some of the DL over the season, he should be at least as effective as he was towards the end of the 07 season. But again, none of those reasons should be good enough to think that way.

"A-Rod? 4/15? He can't hit in the playoffs, no wait, he can't hit in the clutch in the playoffs, no wait, he can't win games in the clutch in the playoffs, no wait-are we done yet?"

Well, he hasn't hit in the playoffs lately, has he? I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic here...

Overall though, Vince, a pretty good rant.
I almost felt the plight of Yankees fans everywhere that have to belly up to the fact that the Sox are still a better team this season. Almost.

Posted by: rip | January 31, 2008 at 02:13 AM

Exactly my point. The Sox had no time to recover, the Yankees dug themselves a 12.5 game deficit. Either way, if you're admitting injuries were a factor in '06, then how do you ignore the fact a 2 game division may have been effected by even more injuries to the other team in '07?

Megan, no racial comment intended, it's simply a fact of foreign asian import pitchers, hence why Matsui, Johjima, Ichiro don't apply. Look at nomo, Suzuki and the likes-asian pitchers regress.

Schilling experienced success when he came back and adjusted, that's also my point, now the league will have an entire season to adjust to his location driven tactics, rather than pure stuff.

Would you prefer Pedroia and Cano? Would that work better for you?

A-Rod homered and after games 1 and 2 had himself a decent second half to the series. The rest of the team (except game 3) didn't hit. You can't knock in runs when there is nobody to knock in and you can't score when nobody advances you.

Posted by: Vince | January 31, 2008 at 08:53 AM

Pedroia and Cano...much better comparison. If I had to pick I think I'd probably take Cano, based purely on offensive performance. I think Pedroia is a bette fielder, but not by that much. I do love Down and Dirty Dustin though.

A-Rod had a chance to win Game 2 of the ALCS while the midges were attacking Carmona. Yet he was struck out. But go ahead, keep trying to make the case for A-Rod being good in the post season. He has certainly faltered since the 04 ALCS, though I fully expect that he will exorcise his playoff demons at some point.

Posted by: rip | January 31, 2008 at 11:08 AM

He has not reached the potential of his abilities, so I do agree with you. My main problem and I know a lot of Yankees fans agree, is that the failing of New York to get past the first round is not to be solely blamed on A-Rod and this most recent postseason he was certainly not invisible.

I do expect him to excercize the demons in the next 10 years though.

The reason I compared Melky and Pedroia is not because I think melky is better (I do think Cano is) but because that is our version of "gritty" and "team" players. Melky doesn't light the world on fire with stats, but he is certainly a winning presence and does the little things that you have to watch and that do not show up in the box scores.

Posted by: Vince | January 31, 2008 at 11:19 AM

I have to chime back in here to address the ridiculous, and conveniently unprovable, suggestion that the Yanks are a bunch of mercenaries and the Sox are a team.

First of all, hogwash. The Sox, despite winning, were easily the bigger collection of random parts and were not any more cohesive than anyone else. Drew was clearly a fish out of water, with fans and teammates, even his teammates thought Schilling was a blowhard and wished he would clamp his trap, as usual Manny was in his own world, etc, etc.

Sure, guys like Lowell and Youk and Pedroia were grinders and gelled. Good for them. But no more so than the energy Melky brought, and Cano, Jeter is obviously a rock, Abreu is pure class, etc.

Let's not overstate the difference here. Yes, the Sox won the title. But the Yanks lost 3 of 4 games to Cle, and needed all kinds of bad breaks to fall. Well guess what, the Tribe went on to then take the same 3 of 4 from Boston, only they were bailed out by the expanded series and Beckett. Good for them, again, but let's not pretend like there was this huge gulf between the teams, or that any clear gap seperates them into 2008.

The Yankees have all kinds of proven homegrown youth (Cano, Melky, Wang) who are completely integrated with the team, and Joba et al are clearly the next wave. Make the aging/mercenary call all you want, but if passing on Santana proves anything, its that the Yanks are actually heading in the opposite direction, and have been for several years...

Posted by: Moonlight Graham | January 31, 2008 at 12:35 PM

lol, Graham, you're really reaching now. Are you actually trying to say that the Yanks lost the ALDS mainly because of bad breaks? Go look at the box score for each game.

Game 1: Wang lasted 4.2 innings in Game 1 giving up 8 runs on 9 hits. The Yankees bats are silenced, for the most part, losing 12-3.

Game 2: Pettite pitches a masterful game 2, firing 6 innings of shutout baseball. The midges come out. Joba's effected, Fausto's not, A-Rod could end it in the ninth with Abreu in scoring position but instead strikes out. Indians take it in extras with Vizcaino on the mound.

Game 3: Yankees win, no need for a recap, even though Roider Clemens can't get out of the 3rd inning. And you thought you only got bad breaks!

Game 4: Wang and Mussina combine for almost 7 innings. Wang lasts 1 inning, allowing 4 runs. Yankees lose 6-4. Noticing a pattern here, yet? Might it have anything to do with starting pitching?

It's more like the Yankees lost because the starting pitching got toasted when the bats went silent, not because of bad breaks. That's what great starting pitching gets you in the playoffs, a chance to still win even when your offense is sputtering. That's how Cleveland won game 2. Sure, those bad breaks may have caused a few runs, but they can't completely account for all of the losses in the series.

And Boston was "bailed out" by a longer series? Excuse me while I piss myself laughing! If anything, a longer series will truly prove which team is better by allowing more chances for each team's respective weaknesses to show through (HINT: That's why the World Series and ALCS are 7 game series). If you think the Yankees would have come through in a 7 game series you're delusional. The Yankees were getting outplayed by the Indians. They were out-hit as well as out-pitched. The starters had nothing left, the pen was the same pen it had been all seaon (with the exception of Joba and Mo, obviously), Jeter was skunked in a slump, A-Rod was October A-Rod for most of the time, and you had nothing going your way. At that point you just say "you're my daddy" and try again next year.

As much as "there is no solution to please a Red Sox fan in regards to the Yankees roster", there seems to be no way to get a Yankee fan to realize that the Yankees have some serious flaws and that there are better teams out there.

Posted by: rip | January 31, 2008 at 02:32 PM

Is it baseball season yet? This is great stuff! Love the PASSION! Bring on the pitchers and catchers!!!!

Note to Yankee fans: De-Nile is not just a river in Africa.

http://ccww.wordpress.com

Posted by: Casey | January 31, 2008 at 06:52 PM

RIP, you made my point...you can definitely mask poor hitting, for awhile anyway, but there is no way to hide bad pitching. The Yankees pitching fell apart in the post season, and they would have been done in 3 games had Torre not had the good sense to take the "masterful" Clemens before he mailed it in during game 3. What a joke...that was money well spent, don't you think?

Bring on the 2008 season! It will be fabulous! Go Red Sox!

Posted by: LMT | January 31, 2008 at 07:20 PM

Jim A: I appreciate the help. I would be more than happy to stay if I can work with this system.

I believe Girardi will have a different mentallity than Joe. he'll play best performer and not best contract/resume with young guys wasting away on the bench. It should be very interesting to watch. Fans willl see the diffference in some of these youngs is not so great and in fact will push the older guy out.

I think Anonymous wins the "longest post ever" award. Thanks Anon, but we don't really care about Red Sox fans comments, if we did, we would go to their blog.

Larry,
I agree about Girardi. The only problem I can see with him managing is he will not spare any veterans feelings or be as diplomatic as Joe T. was and that could cause some ripples. I think he will be good with the young guys though as he has a reputation as a good teacher.

First try, but I've been sitting on this post for a while so I'm sure someone used this code: 753879

It looks like someone had too much time on their hands.

Larry M,

Im not sure what kind of manager Girardi is yet. His body of work is small and the situation was...well...weird in Florida. He ceratainly has some concerns in regards to dealing with the stresses of the job. Perhaps he has learned to deal with it better. Most people do.

The criticism I always had of Joe was he wasn't a good X's and O's guy. I can't say Girardi is any better or worse based again on the small body of work. He did after all have a losing season. People rave because his team didn't do as bad as everyone thought. Maybe everyone thought wrong. Each year people wrongly dismiss teams early on. I would like to see a little better resume than "My team didn't lose as much as expected" before I give him kudos.

I think it takes 3 years for a manager to really know his style and concepts. After all he may have to change the way things are done and get his influence fully through the team.

Should be interesting.

Jim A/Larry...
Good posts. Keep up the great stuff. You guys say it much better than I can. thanks. 27/08

Jim A: You said something very interesting. Girardi will not be so concerned with the feelings of the veteran as Joe was(to a fault). His job is to win. if players want to play then they will embrace the best guy plays mentallity. hopefully, bust their butt to play more than the next guy.

As far as Joba, he'll be starting out in the pen as the setup man and then enter the rotation later on. The FO has a dilema with 3 kids having innings limits for the year (one of my arguements for Santana). And, IF we get in the post season, you certainly don't want those innings maxed out before then! I basically see a rotation of Wang, Pettitte, Mussina and the 3 kids each basically pitching 2/3 of a season each to fill the other two slots. They can accomplish that in some type of a rotation with the odd man out being in the bullpen at any set time.

As far as the lineup, I see Damon being the PRIMARY LF, and spelling Melky whenever he gets a day off too. I see Matsui playing LF about 30% of the time and DHing when Giambi is at 1B. I see Giambi playing quite a bit at 1B against RH and DH'ing some. I think Ensberg will be the RH platoon guy at 1B whenever a lefty goes.

Duncan will probably be the RH DH, PH, and part-time RF or LF sub whenever a lefty is going for the opponents. Betemit will be the IF sub and maybe late inning defensive replacement at 1B. It can all work out, but it is not much fun being a sub on the Yankees all-star roster.

I still think the rotation is going to be real THIN over the long season and IF we get there, wore out for the post season. Just this fan's observation. Sure wish we had a Santana.

Nudge

I love your line in your 12:08 post: "He was looked on as a player that rarely came up big but always had good looking numbers."

Are you implying that he was not "clutch"? Awhile back we had a huge discussion about just this type of talk, what does "clutch" mean, etc. Anyhow, I know of just such a player!!! And, a former one named Winfield too.

P.S. I like the definition. It sums it all up in one sentence.

Nudge,
You could be right. At least it appears that way with football coaches as they always seem to be better in their second go-round as head coaches. Joe Torre was obviously thought to be "Clueless" before he took the Yankees job and then he looked like a genius for a long time. We'll see what he's really made of with the Dodgers.
I really think it's just a bit of luck as you put the right personality into the right circumstance. I am not sure there are too many managers out there that would make a difference to a team if all you did was add them to it. Right now I'd say Jim Leyland and Mike Scioscia (sp?) fit that bill but Leyland has been given a very good team so we'll see what he does with it.

I use the football coach analogy because I somehow have to talk myself into believing that Jim Fassel will be a better head coach than he was for the Giants as my beloved, yet insanely frustrating Redskins seem like they are about to hire him (or Steve Mariucci).

168143- first try
Now...568153

Rick,
Oh no, please don't start the "clutch" thing again. I know you like the definition but someone is just going to ask you to define "comes up big" and it will start all over again :)

1st-197971

winfield was in what one Post season with the yankees? please

he was the rbi machine after that

Wow Michael PTRS Sox says add Kevin Gregg

Waaaaahoooo!

Thank you finally an Amen!!!!!!!!!!

I said this for 11 months.

He only makes like 2.4 million. (Gregg, not M PTRS)

WTF?

Cashman is the worst GM ...

Worse than Mel Hall and a 12 year oldd

Worse than Jim Leyritz and a case of Jim Beam

Worse that Brian McNamee in a pool with a passed out girl on a Date R __ __ E drug

Nudge, I have a couple friends who are Philly Fans, they say the same thing. I think the big difference was that the Phils needed Abreu to lead their team, needed that 30-35 HR's, him to bat .330. He doesnt have to fit into that role on the Yanks, he just needs to complement the big boys. His greatest asset is his eye. The walks and the numbers of pitches he sees in an AB are so valuable to the Yanks in the 3 hole. That had a profound affect on A-rod. My friends do understand this and say he's a good fit for us, just not for them.

I come from a big baseball family. My uncle actually pitched in the late 80's, Jack