I wrote on Johan Santana again. Any chance this situation, which began around Thanksgiving, resolves itself before the upcoming holiday of Christmas? Or at least by New Year's?
The Pioneer Press (St. Paul, Minn.) seems to think so. It reported yesterday that "there's buzz that a Santana trade could be made wiithin days," without saying which team was/is the frontrunner.
Here's the latest from Hank Steinbrenner (who also said he doesn't expect the Yankees to pursue Mark Prior), as I reported in today's paper:
"There's still an outside chance that we get him," Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said by phone yesterday afternoon. "We'll see. We've got to do things based on what we think is best. I think myself and [general manager] Brian [Cashman] are going back and forth. I think we're comfortable staying where we are, and I certainly think we'd be comfortable getting Santana, too."
Neither the Yankees or Red Sox came away with the two-time Cy Young Award winner at the winter meetings, but Steinbrenner did not dismiss the possibility. He did, however, dismiss the much-rumored notion that he is more gung-ho to make the trade and Cashman is more reluctant to give up top prospect Phil Hughes. If there were a difference of opinion, though, Steinbrenner made clear whose opinion would win out.
"The decision is my decision," Steinbrenner said. "It doesn't matter one way or another what somebody ... you have to take advice, but ultimately, the owner has to make a decision."
As yet, no decision has been made on whether to up the ante and pull the trigger to acquire Santana. Both of them are undecided.
"He'll [Cashman] tell me that one day he wakes up and wants to do one thing, and the next he wakes up and wants to do the other thing," Steinbrenner said, "and I'm kind of the same way. I think that we're not exactly panicking thinking that we have to have anything at this point, but it's still a possibility. He's a great pitcher, and it has to be seriously considered."
Comments (103)
Nice work Kat, I'm glad you were able to get the latest info. on this potential deal.
I think we need Howie Mandel to mediate these negotiations and just let Hank push the big red button or slam the little acrylic box closed.
Howie: "Hank Steinbrenner, Deal....or no deal?"
Hank (with Cashman doing a Van Gundy around his leg yelling "Nooooo"): "Well Howie, they're all telling me no, but I have a good feeling about this...then again I don't know...um"
Howie: "We'll fine out when we come back" (cut to commercial).
Whoops! MIssed the cut-off on the last thread.
I don't know if anyone has seen this yet, but I believe that the Dbacks are presently in serious discussions with Prior. I'm not sure he fits in with Yankee plans anyway in as much as they are so loaded with young arms ready to roll. Still, a temptation I must admit.
And another one at the bottom of the last thread.
By the way, I may have misunderstood something, but it seems to me that Mitchell has been quoted as saying that McNamee had everything to lose by telling lies because the Feds were sitting in on his interview with McNamee.
If it's a federal crime to lie to a federal official, why didn't Mitchell simply have these same federal authorities sit in on interviews with clubhouse people from ALL the teams? He wouldn't need subpeona powers if that's all it would take. Or am I missing something?
Yeah, how could anybody give up a Phil Hughes for a stiff like Santana?????? DUH!!!!!!
Yanks61: At the bottom of Kat's piece on Santana, she quotes Hank as saying the Yanks don't have any interest in Prior. I'd say I hope he's just being coy but that doesn't seem like Hank.
Rick,
It's not just Hughes , it's the package they wanted versus the package they "supposedly" wanted from The Sox. If you want to overspend for something , than by all means go ahead. I just hope the Yank's are wiser than those who would have traded our 2 best pitching prospects , last year for rentals. Leaving the yank's w/out the one piece that Minnesota supposedly wants?
I still say let Hughes pitch for NY and if Minny wants to talk Santana , leave Joba (who is supposedly untouchable) , Hughes , Tabata and Jackson out of it. IF that is possible , if not , let the sox have him.
NOOOOOOOOOO HANKENSTEIN!!!!! I THOUGHT MY BOYS WERE SAFE!!!
Realist - my thoughts EXACTLY! Im 100% for keeping the kids as Ive said every day since I joined this blog. Let the Sox have him.
Jim A - hilarious ; )
DRU,
The funny part of this is every time a deal appears imminent with the sox , there is a snag? It's almost as if Minn is trying to get a knee jerk offer from NY , that far exceedes the sox offer?
I know I may get crucified for saying this but I wouldn't be suprised if this was all posturing between the two to keep him away from each other. Leaving Santana as a twin until the trade deadline...jmo.
Agreed, I believe the Twins don't like any of the Boston offers and regret not taking the Hughes/Melk +1 deal. Dont do it Hankenstein, take your "Abby Normal" brain out of the mix here and let the baseball people make this decision. He needs to sit down with Cash, Michaels ( yes he's still with the Yanks ) and Oppenheimer and see what they want to do.
Where are all the LA teams in this? I cant believe the Dodgers arent making a push to sign Johan after the moves the D-backs made. I thought for sure that the Dodgers would have been in on Johan after the Haren deal. If the Dodgers think that adding Andrew Jones is putting them over the top, they have a long season ahead. If the Dodgers stand pat they'll finish 3rd behind the Dback and Rockies. Dam those laid back West coast papers and fans, they should be demanding Johan! lol
From our end, I really hope this is just a cat and mouse game between the Twins, Sox and Yanks. Keep Johan Minny, take those draft picks in 09. Everyone loves draft picks right?
I tend to agree, Realist. I think that's exactly what these teams are doing.
Neither wants to give up their young talent plus $140M+ over 7 years.
They could always change their minds several months down the line, but I think they would both be content with Santana staying in MIN for the time being.
If either team really wanted him at this point, the deal would have been made a long time ago.
Redsox Haiku-
Seventeen base hits
weren’t all that doomed the Rockies –
too much Josh Beckett
Schilling kept things close
before bullpen sealed the deal
despite Matt’s four hits
No DH, no prob –
surge in the sixth and seventh
couldn’t beat Red Sox
Regulars, before you click on the "post" button, copy your post in case you get the message that says your message was rejected, then refresh your screen which will give you a new code and paste your post in the box and hit "post" again. It should work, it just takes some getting used too.
I want Santana on the Yanks badly, but I don't see Minny doing the deal without Hughes in it. That's what is killing me, but I think Santana changes everything and to me, the final factor is that he's left handed. If he's a RHP, maybe I wouldn't like the trade but a stud southpaw in the Bronx for the next 5-6 years sounds good to me.
I feel so dirty...
Larry Lucchino's likes young children and molest them.. I advice that Please keep your children away from Mr.Lucchino. He's Devil
Boston Red Sox President/CEO Larry Lucchino Confirmed as Guest Speaker for The Guidance Center, Inc.'s Annual Gala
The Guidance Center, Inc. (GCI), the community's largest provider of developmental, mental health and family support services, today announced that Larry Lucchino, president/CEO of the World Champion Boston Red Sox, will be the guest speaker at its annual fundraising event. "Celebrating Families: The Guidance Center, Inc.'s Annual Gala" will take place on Thursday, May 12, 2005 at The Charles Hotel in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Founded in 1954, The Guidance Center, Inc. (GCI) is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization whose mission is to be the leading provider of developmental and mental health services to children, including the youngest and most vulnerable, in respectful partnership with their families and community leaders. GCI works with more than 3,500 children and families annually in Cambridge and Somerville, Mass. Its multicultural, multilingual staff has expertise in addressing a range of health and family challenges, including pre-mature births, developmental delays or disabilities, substance abuse, depression and domestic violence.
GCI's continuum of care includes 15 programs across four categories: Infant-Toddler Services, Early Care and Education Services, Child and Adolescent Services, and Intensive Family Services
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:yb6J7ySeWMM9DM:http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/28/sports/Funnyman190.jpg
Please don't respond to the nonsense above (Anon-10:39)...this blog used to be great before all this garbage and responding only fuels them.
Kat, I think you & I read The Pioneer Press differently. The papers website said that the RED SOX were the leading contender for Johan, and that a trade could happen in days. Hank needs to pull the trigger. If Johan goes to Sox, can you envision two 27-28 yr old studs anchoring that rotation for the next 1/2 doz yrs? And as for Minny keeping Johan until trade deadline, I believe Santana has told Twins he wouldn't accept any trade during the season. And, PUHLEASE, all this talk about$$. Giambi, Mussina, Abreu, Pettitte, Farnsworth off the books after '08 and Damon/Matsui's $26M off after '09. So, Johan's $20M salary can be easily factored in over the long haul!
Gene, I just hope the Yanks don't display the sort of panic thinking that you are endorsing. You don't overpay for a player (and I all know we have different opinons about what is overpaying) because of what your rival might or might not do. Hank can't allow himself to be played by the Twins.
And I have pointed this out time and time again. ONly the fools on this board spend alot of time talking about how much money this is going to cost the Yankees. They are worth 1.2 billion, move into a new stadium, and have all the contracts coming off the books that you discussed above (also the luxury tax threshold increases significantly in the next 5 years and much of the tax can be offset against the cost of the new stadium anyway). Money has nothing to do with this move...
Gene,
You are absolutely right. Santana has put the Twins in a position so that they need to trade him this winter or risk losing him for draft picks. They WILL trade him.
Jon Heyman reported on SI.com yesterday that a trade was close with the Red Sox but that he believed the sticking point was Ellsbury and that the Sox would walk away before including him and the Twins were also ready to walk away if he was not included. The Twins need the Sox and Yanks to work against each other here and I think the Sox are doing a great job of driving up the price but I don't think they really want him. Salary is probably more of an issue for the Sox than the Yankees as the Sox will look like hypocrites for all the crying they've done about the Yanks spending habits and how they are "the little engine that could".
I'd love to see Santana just reject a trade to the Sox, that would be very funny. Come on Abreu, call your buddy up and talk some sense into him!
I’ve said from the beginning that I would rather keep the kids – all the kids - than trade any for Johan (and like us all I know how great he is.) I know this may not seem logical, but I much prefer rooting for these home grown guys, who I truly believe are the real deal. I don’t believe they’re over-hyped, because what they’ve all done (Hughes, Joba and IPK) throughout their minor league careers and in short stints in the Bigs last year says otherwise. I know, potential is just that – potential. But I’d so much more enjoy seeing a new competitive dynasty built on the arms of these youngsters than trading even one of them and bringing in outsiders – no matter how formidable.
Having said all that, I certainly can understand the lure of Mr Santana and don’t, for a moment, disagree with those who think he’ll be great for at least the next few years. So I can only say that I’m happy that Gene Michael and Cash are obviously deeply involved in this decision, and I can live with whatever they decide.
Still, if I had my druthers, I’d rather Johan decamped for LA (the Dodgers of course) and left our ‘boys’ in the Yanks rotation. I think the Red Sox would be happiest with that outcome as well!
Yanks61,
Of course you, like the huge majority of Yankees fans, would
"so much more enjoy seeing a new competitive dynasty built on the arms of these youngsters than trading even one of them and bringing in outsiders – no matter how formidable."
I read your statement as meaning that 'seeing a new competitive dynasty' is a given, and the variable is whether to do it with 'the arms of these youngsters' or by 'bringing in outsiders'. (Please say so if I have misread your message.)
But what if building a new competitive dynasty is also a variable, and the choice is between BUILDING IT by bringing in at least the occasional outsider, or keeping all our own young arms and NOT BUILDING a competitive new dynasty.
That is the possibility that some Yankees fans see and the reason they consider Santana a significant option.
Believe me, I'd love to keep Hughes. But, how often do you get to trade for a CY Young type lefty still in his prime? You have to give to get. I wouldn't give up Kennedy in the deal, though, and that may be the deal breaker. Bottom line is Yanks don't have a shut-down ace a la Beckett. Wang/Pettitte are not that type. Could Joba/Hughes be that ace? Maybe. But, Santana is already there. Hughes-Melky-other mid level prospect is fair for both sides. Melky is a decent OF, but you sign Cameron to a 1 yr deal and have Damon play CF for the 1st 25 games. Cameron is better defensively than Melky and certainly has more RBI ability. One of the young phenom OF's takes over in '09. It makes perfect sense. We'll see how things unfold.
Twins La Velle Neal- Thursday: Answering some questions
[quote]
http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=299
There’s a good chance I may be unable to post until late today (if at all), so I’ll tee up a few things for you now, based on some responses I’ve read here.
Who’s really interested in Santana?: The way it was laid out to me, there are several teams interested, but the Red Sox and Yankees remain the two main suitors. Other teams will indicate that they might get heavily involved but, as of this writing, have yet to make a strong offer. The Angels, Mariners and Mets all have shown some degree of interest in recent weeks. I hate to write it again, but everything can change with one phone call.
What’s the deal with the Mets? Do they really have a shot? I still hear that, unless the names Wright and Reyes enter the picture (and I doubt they will), the Mets have no shot. The word at the winter meetings was that the Mets kept their name involved for PR purposes. This is an indication that the Twins may not be that fond of some of the Mets prospects.
The Yankees are in…no they’re out….they may be really close to getting Santana…no, now Hank says they’re on the outside: Heh, Hank Steinbrenner has to be a reporter’s dream. I think it’s obvious that Steinbrenner and GM Brian Cashman are sparring over players to offer to the Twins, but you can never count them out because they need Santana more than the Red Sox do and they can pay Santana what he wants. Hank could pop off at any time and say, “Costanza, get in here! Look, this Santana guy is just what we need, JUST WHAT WE NEED! I want him, and I want YOU go to Minneapolis and get him!'’
While we’re at it, why DO the Red Sox want Santana? We already have a good rotation…. This is not about the Red Sox keeping Santana away from the Yankees or making the Yankees drive up the price. I know a few Red Sox people. Boston trains in Fort Myers where the Twins are and I bump into their people all the time. I met GM Theo Epstein and assistant GM Jed Hoyer at the winter meetings when they were just wandering around the hotel with nothing to do. I’ve had no choice but to talk about, `The Nation.’ The Red Sox want to dominate. They want to build a dynasty in the AL East and keep the Yankees reeling for as many years as they can. A rotation of Josh Beckett, Santana, Dice-K and Schilling with Tim Wakefield and Clay Buchholz also in play helps them achieve their domination goals.
Are the Twins really serious about opening the season with Santana in the rotation? I, too, find that hard to believe. Most players who enter their walk year want to keep walking. While Santana’s camp hasn’t come out and said it, there are some rumbling that he won’t waive his no-trade clause during the regular season.
The Twins maintain that they aren’t afraid to open the season with Santana, and they may be willing to call his bluff at trade deadline. That’’s a big gamble. They should be looking to get the best deal possible now. If they can get four players in return for Santana, just look at what your getting with the top two players in that deal and hope player Nos. 3 and 4 will be equal to what you’d get in compensation picks. So as long as they are satisfied with the quality up top, they should pull the trigger.
Why can’t the Twins sign Santana? The Twins did offer a four-year, $80 million extension, which shows that, no matter who the pitcher is, they won’t sign someone for five, six, seven years. Many of those deals (Kevin Brown, Mike Hampton, Denny Neagle) end up being wasted money by the time the deal expires. You would think that Santana would be special case but, again, history warns against such a commitment. Just like with Torii Hunter and Carlos Silva, someone will pay Santana much more than the Twins.
If I were a fan, I would not let this organization off the hook because of that. The Twins could have signed a few players a year ago before salaries jumped forward again. Now that Joe Nathan has watched Mariano Rivera sign for $15 million a year at his advanced age, what do you think No. 36 is worth?
Not signing Santana a year ago, when he was asking them to, was a massive mistake. Now new GM Bill Smith is having sleepless nights trying to make a good Santana deal. Ownership needs to be proactive. It’s a $6 billion industry. Everyone is making money, right Carl?
What about Nathan? The Cubs? I still expect the Twins to look to trade Nathan once they move Santana. Just in case Santana does wind up with the Twins in April, you might as well keep the closer and see where the chips fall. If Nathan is put in play, I would expect several teams to jump at him. He’s too good and he’s inexpensive this season. I wrote last week that the Cubs would be interested if Nathan is put on the market. A radio station in Chicago mentioned Carlos Marmol as possible trade bait, someone here immediately threw Felix Pie into the deal. This has been advanced farther it should be. Nathan wasn’t on the trade block, last time I checked.
Ben Revere? Someone threw out this name too. First of all, I believe Revere hasn’t been in the organization long enough to be dealt. Secondly, he’s good. You want to keep Revere. He’s very fast, they think he’ll hit and he may be able to drop a few over the fence. Denard Span is still a good prospect, but there are people in the organization who feel Revere has more upside. Too bad he’ll need several more years before he’s ready.
So….what’s your gut feeling: I still think he’ll end up with the Red Sox, and I don’t mind either package. I will say this: Some Twins people like Coco Crip and feel he can get back to his game if gets out of Boston. I think that’s possible, but Ellsbury could be very good. He had a .389 OBP throughout his minor league career and the Twins have watched him develop while facing their teams in the Gulf Coast League, Eastern League and Internatonal League. They know what they’re getting.
The Yankees have no shot if Hughes (a super stud of a prospect) isn’t in the deal.
Before I’d say yes to Theo, I would call the Angels and Dodgers one last time…[/quote]
Obviously, this trade talk is back. The Sox offer is less than desirable to the Twins or it would have been done. So,keep the original two offerings and find something in the AA or A which puts the icing on the cake. Not all prospects pan out so take the shot.
No names mentioned so as not to upset anyone.
Yanks61....did you have any wild parties back in 77? I think I might be your long lost son. I am with your statement 100%! (I wanted to say 150%, but I hate when people do that).
I understand why fans like Diane are looking for the sure thing in Santana. It seems as if they have the upper hand in the negotiations, but nothing is a sure thing. History frowns upon SP's that pitch as many innings as Johan in consecutive seasons, it also frowns upon SP's that sign long term contracts in the 150-200M range. There are arguments to be made on both sides (lord knows I have been throwing stats and examples to keep the kids since I found out about this blog). Either side could be correct, that’s why I would like to err on the side of the youth here. I know Melkey isn’t an Allstar ( yet ), but something has to be said for a 22 year old switch hitter who carried a .280 average, has a cannon arm and brought much needed high energy to the team. His contributions in the dugout with Arod and Cano cannot be overlooked. I know that there are guys like Tabata and Jackson on the way, but they will be the future RF and LF. We give away Melk, we still need to get another OF in a couple years after Matsui, Damon and Abreu are gone ( all in 2 years ). As far as Phil Franchise goes, I think Ive stated my affection for him enough on this blog. He's a big, strong, young, cheap, smart.. horse that will carry this franchise on its back for the next 20 years if given the chance. The Yanks think so, Baseball America though so along with many other minor league rankings that pegged Phil the #1 pitching prospect in the league in 07. Again, the fan “fun” factor cannot be ignored. Instead of rooting for another mercenary like Santana, we have a chance to show the entire league that we can develop our own aces. Listen I’ve seen WS’s, 4 of them ( wont count 77 and 78 since I was too young ), the yanks have 26 rings. What is the big rush to put another trophy in the case? If we were the Cubs or Sox of 04 and really wanted to give the suffering fans a ring, yes, pull the trigger. ALL Yankee fans have see a WS win, so why the big push? Because of the Red Sox? Who cares if they get Johan, it guarantees nothing for them. We have the perfect rotation in place for the future.
#1 – Hughes
#1a – Joba
#3 – Wang
#3a – IPK
How do we just give that away? I don’t care how many RHP we have on the way, all three of the kids proved they can pitch in the majors at a high level. Even though Joba, Phil and IPK have small sample sizes, they were all pretty damn good samples.
Bradbury: Legalize HGH
[quote]
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/12/my-solution-to-rid-mlb-of-hgh-legalize-it/
This is a great read. J.C. Bradbury makes his case for baseball to legalize the use of HGH, since it has "little to no effect on athletic performance." He says the players have been duped. Should we be more sympathetic with guys who tried to cheat but chose the wrong performance-enhancer?
Ht Mlbtraderumors[/quote]
From Today Chat with Keith Law
[quote]
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=18571
Sam-Nj: Merry X-mas Keith... Anyone who thinks bucholz is equal to hughes has never looked at anything but a box score... Their pure stuff is comparable, but before the injury, Hughes had a slight edge all around, but hughes is also three years younger and still developing physically. Bucholz is where he's going to be physically, especially in terms of power (which translates to break on his secondary pitches). Scouts having followed them consider Hughes to be a more intelligent, polished pitcher, despite being younger. Hughes has no personality issues, and showed in the playoffs that he can step into a big spot and come up even bigger. Bucholz has already been arrested and is a spoiled rich kid who thinks he can get away with anything. Hughes mechanics are considered fairly sound, none of his pitches thought to be serious injury risks. Bucholz mechanics on his breaking balls are 'whippy' and put a lot of torque on his arm. there is a lot of question how, especially as thin as he is, if his arm will hold up. so... even if there stuff is comparable, age, polish, mechanics, body... all go in favor of hughes... it's why he was the highest rated pitching prospect in baseball coming into 07.
SportsNation Keith Law: (1:28 PM ET ) Merry Christmas to you too. I have zero idea where you get any of this from. Buchholz' raw stuff > Hughes'. When Hughes has two secondary pitches as good as Buchholz' curve and change, you give me a call, OK?
Anthony, Boca Raton, FL.: Why was Hughes ranked so high if he lacks the two secondary pitches you've mentioned?
SportsNation Keith Law: (1:35 PM ET ) He lacks two secondary pitches as good as Buchholz'. Not quite the same thing. And Hughes is still a very promising pitching prospect - I just think Buchholz is better, and you have to really strain your logic to come up with a counterargument.
[/quote]
The original deal for Santana (Hughes, Melky, +1 pospect) has increased in value now that Rowand, Jones, and Hunter have all signed.
Without Melky, we would really need to sign another center fielder. I highly doubt Austin Jackson is prepared to come up first thing this season.
The Yanks should really start from scratch with offers for Santana. Kennedy should be included instead of Hughes. Melky can still be included but it Tabata and Jackson should be untouchable.
Any other prospects that are included should be 2-tier and preferably infield position players.
If the Twins do not like this then they should send him to the Red Sox. Wang, Hughes, Pettitte, Joba, Kennedy, Mussina is more than enough pitching for us to succeed next year.
Mike - Keith Law's opinion is just one of many. Baseball America, Scout.com and every other minor league outlet on the planet had Hughes ranks WAY ahead of Bucholtz in 06 and 07. I will take their opinions over an ESPN analyst ( a dime a dozen ) any day. Ive been on those chats a Million times ( play fantasy baseball each year ), guys like Law make statements, end up being wrong, then back peddle the rest of the year. Keith is entitled to his own opinion, I would guarantee that another expert would have the opposite opinion. I guess we’ll have to wait a couple years to see who was right and who was wrong. Thanks for the input though Mike.
Gee, DRU, I would love to claim you for a son based on your posts (!) but unfortunately my wild party days ended in the 60’s (my wife having had something to say about that.)
I believe that you’re right about not needing to rush into the future. But I have to quickly add that I’ve been incredibly spoiled – far more so than you! The first championship that I can recall was the Yanks over the Dodgers in 53. I can remember to this day, as an eight year old, coming home from the library in Jersey City (it was a long way from home!) and listening to the radios and TV’s in all the open windows and out the corner bar doors. The whole world seemed to be tuned in! So, as I said, I’ve been repeatedly rewarded through the years and therefore probably have more patience than a lot of Yankee fans because of it, especially younger fans - with the exception of precocious guys like you!
You’re quite right Diane. Nothing in life is a given. As I pointed out, I can live with a decision to move one of the young arms if that decision is supported by Michael. I have an outsized faith in that gentleman, which I think most of us share. However, I’d prefer to not do it that way, and that’s why the best solution, from my point of view, is that Santana goes to the LA Dodgers or somewhere else out of the league entirely. But, no, I have no problem at all bringing in the occasional outsider, as a free agent or even as a trade if it doesn’t involve sending off an extremely promising youngster like we did so often in the 80’s.
Diane, I wanted to take the opportunity to add a thank you for your always courteous and civilized (as well as extremely insightful) posts.
Kat, I’ve had several attempts at posting blocked. It’s getting to be crazy. Five or six consecutive attempts blocked! Hopefully there’s something your technical people can fix?!
Jim A., thanks for the tip! I wrote my post in Word and pasted it into the post. It’s easy to do and easy to recover in Word after the post has been rejected!
Who thinks
#1 – Hughes
#1a – Joba
#3 – Wang
#3a – IPK
is better than
#1 – Santana
#1a – Joba
#3 – Wang
#3a – IPK
And who else has a warm and fuzzy relying on three absolute rookies (sort of) heading into 08? Are we expecting 200 innings from each? Will Mussina be the spot starter? Will he stop giving up 16 runs a game?
I'm only polling the group. I personally don't have any issues if we are prepared to build and miss the playoffs. Not saying we will, but rookies, WTO a few, don't dominate in their first full year. Let's face it, we can not and absolutely WILL not make the playoffs every year between now and forever. I just think it would be a shame to miss them in the last year of the Stadium.
Thoughts?
That 1403 post is me. I got blocked on the original post and when I resubmitted, I forgot my moniker.
Sully, Are you around today?
Anon,
There is no doubt that Santana is better than Hughes and would make our starting rotation better.
But we also have to give up our center fielder with no safe bet to replace him. Damon and Matsui are getting to old to play the field, that showed this year.
In order to get Santana we need to already have a plan to replace Melky in place or else the deal should not be made.
2006 Rankings =
http://milb.scout.com/a.z?s=381&p=9&c=12&nid=287&lnid=287&pid=88&yr=2006
2007 Rankings =
http://milb.scout.com/a.z?s=381&p=9&c=12&nid=287&lnid=287&pid=88&yr=2007
In 06 Phil was ranked as a 5 star player and #3 overall behind Delmon Young and Alex Gordon, both stud players about to take off this year. I couldnt even find Bucholtz.
In 07 Phil was again ranked as a 5 Star player and #1 overall. Bucholtz finally cracked the top 50 at #40, a 3 Star Player.
Choose what information you want to reference: a place like scout.com who's sole purpose is to scout the minor leagues, or an ESPN analyst that like 'Sam-Nj' said, probably only looked at the box scores.
I agree with Law and have been echoing similar dissatisfaction with Hughes' apparent lack of ATLEAST a change up-(and one that he can command effectively)
When he blew away Cleveland in the reg season and the playoffs he threw a strict diet of fastballs and curves. Same thing against Texas in the near no-no.
You can't throw 2 pitches in MLB and get by unless you're a closer or you're a starter with incredibly filthy stuff and high 90s velocity.
Phil tops out at 94 and I'm not convinced he's anything more than a 91-92 type guy and sadly his fastball isn't the liveliest either.
goddmanit
My post got mangled because of this damn security code cut and paste $hit
I hear you anon, there is no way any of the three touch 200 innings. We are in a unique situation though since we have 6 starters. This gives us the option to limit their innings while spreading the rest out to Moose, Andy and Wang. If we miss the playoffs this year, I am perfectly fine with that as long as the young guns stay healthy, while building up arm strength and endurance. Making the playoffs hasnt really translated into rings since 2000. Sometimes you need to take a step back to move forward. The Sox missed the playoffs in 06, then set themselves up nice to win in 07 and beyond. Would I prefer a championship in the last season at the stadium? You bet-cha! But not at the cost of the future.
Yanks61, thank you for the kind words. We have much to learn from a seasoned vet like yourself.
I like Hughes, but if you had to make a list of the five starting pitchers in all of baseball that you'd want to have in your rotation for the next 6 years, who would be #1 on that list? Santana. Would Hughes even be on that list? Probably not.
Ask anyone who isn't a Yankee fan which pitcher they'd rather have and they'll tell you Santana. Falling too much in love with your own prospects is just as harmful as trading them away too quickly.
Continued from my 1418 post...
I've actually heard analysts attribute the dreaded phrase "pretty straight" when evaluating his fast ball.
It may sound like I hate the kid but that is far from the truth.
In fact when I watch him I actually see a lot of Beckett in him.
Sure Becketts fast ball is better by a few mph with some more movement but their curveballs are identical and I believe their best pitches.
The major difference and the one that makes Josh Beckett a 20 game winner IMO is that Beckett has a change up. Not a devastating Santana change up (best in the game btw) but a solid reliable and effective change up which enables him to keep hitters totally off balance.
If Phil can develop a change up that he can throw for strikes I believe then and only then can we depend on him.
I also think the change up will allow Phil to finally start to reach that famous ceiling that we all hear he has.
I'm not saying he won't develop that pitch but the fact that he has not to this point done so is cause enough-for me atleast-to pull the trigger and get Santana.
Unless of course we can play the Indians everday...
Phil likes him some Indians ;-)
Hughes is like Sandy Koufax when pitching to the current Cleveland Indians.
Dru. I want you as my son too so I can kick you out of our basement in Jersey and hopefully get you motivated in life! Time to grow up and get out!
Dave - Agreed
Santana
Peavy
Webb
Beckett
Oswalt
Pavano..lol
Think of it this way though, 6 years ago ( 2000 season ) who were the best SP's?
Pedro
Randy
Hampton
Maddux
Kevin Brown
Shoot - even Chan Ho Park and Al Leiter had great years. Notice that none of the original 5 were anywhere to be found.
If you told the Marlins, trade me Dontrell Willis and Josh Beckett for Randy Johnson in 2000, they would have done it in a heartbeat. Santana was a rule 5 pick in 2000, let go for nothing. The thing is, you never know what you have until looking back years from now. There is much greater risk in thinking Hughes will even be anything close to Santana, EVER. Im just sick of all the moves the Yanks made since 2000. All those FA's were cant miss, all failed. Santana only being 29 doesn’t make me feel any more confident that we will repeat what he did these last 4 years ever again. I posted something last week about SP’s that led the league in innings over a 4 year period ( which Santana has ), and what they looked like the next two years after, not too good. If you want a great comparison with a lefty at the age of 29, look no further than Barry Zito. The Giants were fooled with the signing and will pay dearly for the next 7 years. I would rather the Yanks keep Phil and fail then let Phil and the gang go and fail. If we do not win the WS for the next 10 years, would you rather it had been because we did the Santana trade or didnt do the Santana trade? I cant answer that for you, but for me, Id take the later.
DAVE S.
"Falling too much in love with your own prospects is just as harmful as trading them away too quickly." -Dave S.
EXCELLENT POINT!!
I completely agree.
For fun...(because you mentioned it)
Top 5 pitchers I'd like in a hypothetical rotations for the next 6 years...Factoring in age and a balance of lefty to righties
1. Beckett or Verlander
2. Santana
3. Brandon Webb or Carmona
4. Bedard or Kazmir or CC Sabbathia
5. Peavy or Halladay (how old is he?)
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.Hughes (WITH A SOLID CHANGE UP)
.Chien Ming Wang
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.Pettitte
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.Hughes(WITHOUT A SOLID RELIABLE CHANGE UP)
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.Jon Garland
.Kurt Schilling
.John Maine
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.Kyle Lohse
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.Mike Mussina or Kei Igawa
.Kei Igawa or Mike Mussina
anon - kisses!
xoxoxoxoxo
Hank, SHUT THE HELL UP ALREADY! People thought George was bad -- well, welcome to the Hank era! This guy needs his lips stapled. Are you kidding me? He's making the Yankees look ridiculous. "One day Cashman wakes up and tells me one thing and then the next day something else"?! Can he undercut Cashman a little more? BE QUIET! Stop airing the Yankees' behind-doors business in public. Stop making the organization look dysfunctional, which it apparently is with you at the helm. Someone get a time machine and get Steve Swindal a cab! We need him back to run this like a baseball team and not a baseball card collection.
Another Fat Actress entry from his blog
[quote]
Innocent until proven guilty?
http://38pitches.com/2007/12/20/innocent-until-proven-guilty/#more-145
Ok I get that. We all get that and anyone that actually read the post will understand that I was not saying Roger used, I’ve never said that. My comment was that as a fan, as someone that he made a major impact on, given the circumstances surrounding his personal trainer and the testimony he gave. I want him to find a way to make me believe he didn’t use. He doesn’t have to, he could care less what I think. As I stated when I posted the piece, it was my opinion and mine only.
I can only go on the information at hand, and the article below is written by someone I vaguely know but who obviously knows the ‘rat’ so many people have no trouble calling out. How is his integrity and credibility any more or less relevant than anyone else’s involved here?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/15/AR2007121501111.html
This guy randomly threw two of the games best pitchers under the bus with no credibility? I am not giving more or less credibility to either side of this situation but as of today we have a guy who has a former player defending his credibility and integrity, and a current player admitting to the very thing this man testified to. The last part of this is the third person refuting any and all allegations.
In the court of public opinion our country is the exact opposite of innocent until proven guilty. That doesn’t make it right, but it does make it what it is. I am trying as hard as I can to rationalize the situation but I am wrestling with what I’ve heard, seen, and think with the reality of what’s out there.
What was your first thought when you saw OJ driving his Bronco down the freeway in a high speed chase?
You are right, it’s not on me to pass judgment, which I wasn’t, I was offering my opinion. This is my blog, I can do that. Please delete the link and stop searching for the site if you don’t care or hate me, it’s really that easy.
I stated it in the post, and some of you dopes still want to use that as a reason for the post itself. I am not even one ounce jealous of what Roger Clemens has achieved. Through this past week I’ve always been in awe of it. There isn’t a Clemens argument that’s been had in my presence that I was not 100% on his side of the table. Are you dumb enough or lacking other options to argue that you’d use that as a reason? I’ve been the 2nd man on the totem pole behind 3 of the best pitchers of my generation. Randy, Pedro and Josh.
I’m ok with that. I had my chance and my time. Those guys were, and are, better than me. That doesn’t pain me in any way to say, because it’s true. If you can’t get that I feel sorry for ya.
I am not preaching from a pulpit, I am talking from a vantage point of a player who understands the relationships that exist in this game between personal trainers and players, clubhouse guys and others. I am speaking from a vantage point of a player who has never in his life ingested HGH or steroids to enhance performance. I don’t cringe to admit to something that’s true and I have not done.
Anyone that’s looked at any of my past posts knows that I also have no issues admitting to being wrong or screwing up, it happens.
My post was my reaction to the Mitchell Report and my desire as a lifelong fan and pupil of Roger Clemens to have him clear his name. You can argue the innocent until proven guilty angle all day long, and legally you would be right, but like just about every single one of you I make opinions and judgments on people without seeing a court decision handed down.
Does Roger have to clear his name? Hell no he doesn’t. If he doesn’t care about the statements in the report and how they reflect on him then I don’t need to be the one to tell you he can do what he wants.
I want him to clear his name because I want to believe that everything he’s done has been because of the legendary work ethic and otherworldly skills he’s always possessed. I want him to clear his name because I selfishly want to be able to say the greatest pitcher of all time had a major influence on me on and off the field. His using PEDs, if it turns out to be the truth, will change my opinion of what he’s done and how he’s done it.
As far as taking back awards, I look at that in a simple fashion. We either move on, totally, and say that every number put up through the 2007 should be respected and held as a completely true reflection of the game, or you can piece meal who and what you think did what, when, and try and assess which are and are not real numbers. Or, you could say that any player caught cheating or admitting to it should have any statistics erased, any awards won rescinded from that period forward unless they can prove they were not using PED’s after they were caught. Their numbers would just go away. Would it create some weirdness? Sure it would. But going forward you would offer up that any player caught would be subject to mandatory testing from blood to urine if they wanted to have their achievements logged as real and be eligible for the hall of fame.
Take away all personal awards won by players caught cheating or that have admitted to use, one time. Re-gift all the personal awards (such as Canseco’s 88 MVP) to the runners up, and be done with it. Going forward you test as best as you possibly can within the confines of the CBA with players understanding a failure means not being eligible for awards or hall of fame consideration unless they can prove they are clean every month for the rest of their careers.
At the end of the day are you truly concerned you might offend someone that cheated?
[/quote]
Couple guys Schilling forgot to call out.
Maybe Curt would be more creditable if he called out his former teammates that appeared on the Mitchell report before Clemens. Guys like
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Lenny Dykstra
Gary Bennett
Eric Gagne
Jose Guillen
Darren Holmes
Todd Pratt
Matt Williams
Kat,
I just had a comment rejected because supposedly I had posted too frequently. That was at 2:54, when I had not posted since 11:36. Instead of returning me to original comment, as it claimed it would do, it bounced me to an earlier version of the thread.
It also claimed I had inaccurately entered the security code number. I checked it twice before sending and it was exactly correct.
I think the system needs tweaking.
P.S. On trying to send this message, I got the same double message, but this time it did bounce me back to this message afterwards. I have checked the security code AGAIN, and it is STILL correct. I will try yet again, but I do think something needs to be done.
P.P.S. I have abandoned my efforts to send my original message. I am going to try this one as many times as it takes. Now on fourth try.
Unbiased (if there is such a thing) scouting report on Phil Hughes
http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/philip-hughes-scouting-report/
Talks about his need to develop a changeup. Remember, Santana didnt master his changeup until he was 24-25 and got hammered until he did. The feel for the changeup takes time for EVERY SP, nobody has one from day one. Lets not forget that Phil just turned 21 in June. He was also hurt most of the year and didnt feel like "himself" until Sept when he dominated from then to the Indians game.
At 6'5"-220, he's a thoroughbred in the making, don’t make glue out of him yet folks!
baileywalk - LOL...good stuff!!!!!
Trade Hughes. I;m sick of Him.. Goodbye Phil.. We need ace Now. Yankees will not win championship any time soon without an True Ace... .Who cares. There's still alot of pitching prospects Yankees organization...
Wow, I'm really shocked by the lack of foresight from this group. This Santana thing is so simple .... THE ABSOLUTE BEST THAT HUGHES COULD BECOME IS A MULTIPLE CY YOUNG WINNER. Is that right so far? Ok ... then we are trading a pitcher w/ tremendous POTENTIAL for a proven commodity. What don't you people understand?
Would I love to keep Hughes? Yes. But if he's the guy that the Twins want in order to trade Santana to us (who, by the way id the single best pitcher on PLANET EARTH at this time) then I'll be the firstguy to help Hughes pack his bags.
HE'S NOT OUR ONLY STUD PITCHING PROSPECT!!! We have Joba, Kennedy, Horne, Marquez, Sanchez, Betances, etc. ALL OF THESE GUYS CAN'T FIT ON THE ML ROSTER ... so, we simply need 2 or 3 to pan out and that's pretty good odds considering the type of ink these guys are getting.
How does this look in 2008: Santana - Wang - Pettitte - Chamberlin - Mussina/Kennedy
And 2009: Santana - Chamberlin - Wang - Kennedy - Horne/Sanchez/Betances
That's called being STACKED folks.
As for melky ... he's a 4th OF at best. He'll never be a superstar ... he has zero plat discipline (he's a streaky hitter only). Go out and sign Cameron for 2 yrs. (better D and better bat than Melky) and by then Jackson will be ready to patrol CF.
Sooooo ... Hughes, Melky + Gonzalez for Santana is a steal. If Yanks are asked to give up more than that (aka, Jackson, Tabata, Cox, Whelan, etc.) then walk away. Twins are over a barrel ... Yanks are not.
Bri - lets agree to disagree. You assume that Santana will continue his dominate stretch, that ( I strike out 200 times a year and hit .230 ) Mike Cameron would be a better option partolling center amd that we will have other OF options once Cameron, Matusi, Damon and Abreu are all gone 2 years from now.
OK, I would beg to differ and have listed many statistical and historical examples proving the opposite.
I guess we will jsut have to wait and see what the Yanks do.
DRU ... according to you (and many others) there is NOBODY that you would be willing to trade Hughes for. That's just crazy. Prospects are by definition, complete crap shoots. Someone said earlier ... Santana was a Rule 5 draftee ... Brien Taylor screwed up his arm in a fight ... remember the great Todd Van Poppel??? Check him out in Texas ... probably selling real estate for Century 21.
The point is this ... if we were talking a mid rotation guy or even an unproven commodity then there is NO WAY you can trade Hughes. But we're talking THE BEST. Interview 100 baseball people with knowledge ... I guarantee 100 would pick Santana as the best pitcher in the game (although some knucklehead like Bob Ryan would pick Beckett). So, we're talking THE BEST. THE BEST ... I'll say it again .... THE BEST. And, btw, he's a F-IN LEFTY!!!!! Ar u kiddin me? This is a no brainer.
Dru,
I think it was you who named the top 5 or 6 pitchers from 6 years ago, which was a great post. Now, can you please dig up the top 6 pitching prospects from six years ago and post them. I think that list could be interesting.
Thanks in advance.
Marianne: See my 10:36 AM post for some advice on posting in the new secure format.
NO my friend, he has BEEN the BEST. Just like so many other SPs that WERE the BEST for a 4 -5 year period. Im sure that he can continue to be the BEST in 08 and if he's lucky, 09 based on the innings ( 911 - the most in the MLB ) over the past 4 years. Do you really think he can continue to be the best over a seven year contract extension, meaning 8 more years? I would seriously beg to differ. Couple that with the fact that he REFUSED to throw his slider in sept and ended up with a +6 ERA and led the ENTIRE league in HR’s allowed...elbow bothering you Johan? I guess we will wait and see.
I know for every #1 prospect that succeeds there are a dozen future car dealers. Look at Phil's stats though, through the minors and even in the majors. One word for every minor league level DOMINATE! No adjustment period at any level. The guy was a couple innings from a NO HITTER IN HIS 2ND MLB START! Not many #1 prospects can claim that. Nor can they claim they had an "off year" in his 1st MLB season and still finish with a 1.28 WHIP and less than a hit per inning. That’s with him working his way back from his injuries, two of them if you remember. Once he was healthy ( Sept ) and his fastball was back in the 95 range he was GREAT!
29 inn…2.73 ERA…1.18 WHIP….229 BAA
Those are ace numbers for a 21 year old!
I bet the other prospects also cannot claim dominating a great AL hitting lineup in the playoffs. The writing is on the wall for this kid to fulfill the high expectation set forth since he was drafted out of HS. He's been the minors highest rated prospect 2 years in a row before he was legally allowed to have a beer.
Can he fail? no doubt...can he be one of the best SPs in the league 5 years from now...could be. Im willing to wait and see if he is. In 5 years Johan will be collecting a 30M check from some team and not be anywhere near where he was these past 4 seasons, history says NOT A CHANCE. Where will Phil be? MAYBE..looking down on Johan. If so, he will be OUR horse, people will call him a TRUE YANKEE. Will Johan ever be called that? nope, just another mercenary looking for a ring and to get paid boatloads of money. As the SF giants how that worked out for them with Zito..and that’s only his 1st year!
Bri,
Putting emphasis in ALL CAPS isn't going to persuade anyone on this topic.
It has been rehashed so many times over the last month that the people who want to keep Hughes will not change their minds - including me.
The comparison between Brien Taylor and Hughes is absurd. Taylor was a headcase that ruined his career because he got into a fight and damaged his shoulder.
Hughes was the #1 pitching prospect in MLB coming into last season and showed signs of brilliance before his injury and again in September the postseason once he fully recovered.
BTW, this security code stuff is a PITA. Lots of bugs that I hope gets fixed soon.
Outside of both being #1 draft picks, there is no comparison between Hughes and Taylor.
Jim - Ill try my best, Im working and posting at the same time. Im like a madman right now!!! lol
Dru, good response. However, look at how old the pitchers you listed were back in 2000:
Pedro: 28
Randy: 36
Hampton: 27
Maddux: 34
Brown: 35
So due to age you never would have taken Randy, Maddux, or Brown for 6 years going forward. You would have taken Pedro, and you would have done very well for the first 5 years. Hampton would have been a bust, but I don't think that Hampton was having a hall of fame type career like Santana.
Plus, look at what RJ, Maddux, and Brown were doing in their mid 30s - imagine if we had them in their late 20s!
Just for kicks, my wishlist right now would probably be:
1. Santana
2. Peavy
3. Verlander
4. Beckett
5. Sabathia
And wherever Hughes fits on that list, I'd put other rookie/very unproven pitchers, like Joba, Lincecum, and Liriano ahead of him.
Rob Neyer- Red badge of Schilling
[quote]
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob
Two good things about the offseason: I have more time for books and movies, and Curt Schilling has a lot more time for blogging. Otherwise, how could he have written 3,676 words about Jose Canseco and Roger Clemens?
It's not easy to blog something that long. Where does one start? Well, let's begin with Schilling's take on Canseco:
As far as Jose goes, my opinion on what he's done is, I guess, rather convoluted. On one hand, Jose lied about every aspect of his professional career as a player. His entire career, all of it, is a sham. He never belonged in the big leagues and anything he ever did in the major leagues is a hoax. He made it clear that he would not have been the player he was had he not cheated. His statistics should be erased, his MVP given to the runner-up, and he should go down as the guy who broke the silence on a horrible period of the game, period. He was never in his life a major league player.
The problem I have, and the opinion I have, is based on the fact that he lied his entire career, every single day of it. He cheated his entire career, and lied about it. He spent his entire career on the record claiming he didn't use PEDs, yet only when his life was in shambles and only when it served Jose Canseco the most, did he 'come clean.' Only then did he become this bastion of truth and honesty. Is that not the scam of scams? He made his hundred million or so, and when he was no longer good enough to compete up here, only when cheating stopped being enough to keep him competitive, only then did he scream "blackballed" and vow to get his revenge. Only then did he tell the truth, or his version of the truth.
Whether you like Schilling or not, it's both fascinating and refreshing to see one player call out another player like this, though one may wonder what offends Schilling more: the lying, or the truth telling. And I hope Schilling understands, in his more thoughtful moments, that one cannot simply "erase" statistics. Could the BBWAA revoke Canseco's MVP, though? I suppose they could, which would make Mike Greenwell (Mike Greenwell?) the winner instead. That's an awfully slippery slope, though, and I'm 100 percent sure the BBWAA wants nothing to do with revisiting old awards.
To Schilling's credit, he doesn't stop with an easy target like Canseco.
Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds. I know both of these men. Roger had a profound effect on my career from a very early point. His 'undressing' of me and lecture were a major turning point. I've always respected his career accomplishments and regarded him as the greatest pitcher to ever play the game. Now I, like every other Yankee and Clemens fan, am faced with a dilemma. The two men that fingered multiple players, from my understanding, both testified with immunity, but only if they told the truth. So these guys had every reason in the world to NOT lie. That doesn't mean they didn't, but there is an immense amount of incentive for them to NOT lie when they gave their depositions, because lying would have seen them open to legal actions beyond what they are already facing. So the question to me then becomes this. It's no mystery that Roger and Andy are as close as any two teammates I know of. Andy makes no bones about Roger's influence in his career. Their personal trainer, the trainer Roger took to Toronto, then to New York, has admitted to administering PEDs to both men. Andy has admitted he did, and that it was a mistake and he never did it again. Roger has denied every allegation brought to the table. So as a fan, my thought is that Roger will find a way in short order to organize a legal team to guarantee a retraction of the allegations made, a public apology is made, and h