E-Boland and the Bombers

Hank already got played when he offered Hughes instead of Kennedy.

Kennedy, Cabrera, and two B-prospects is much better than anything Boston is willing to offer.

Mr. Hanky should care what Boston is offering as it could weaken them if Bucholtz and Ellsbury are traded.

Hughes must stay.

Ian, Cano and Melky, or Horne intead of Cano.

If only you'd sign Eckstein and then move Jeter to 2B or CF, or Cano to 3B and Eck to SS or 2B or A Rod to SS we'd have a leadoff hitter and the CF issue solved.

Jeter does not have great range or a great arm.

Yount moved to CF.

A Rod would be better at SS than Jeter.

I hope Santana does not come in this trade.

Too many prospects and again, too much money.

Here's Hank's entire quote:

The New York Yankees likely will pull out of trade talks for Johan Santana if the Minnesota Twins don't make a decision by late Monday.

"I'm not going to be played against the Red Sox. That's not something I'll do. That's not something the Yankees should ever do, and that's I think what they're trying to do now," Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said Sunday. "So if they want the best offer that has been offered to them, then they need to make up their minds."

I posted this 2 and 1/2 hours prior..............dump the deal and move on.

hmmm, another ultimatum by Hank. Anyone remember how the last one turned out??? "We will not negotiate w/ Arod if he opts out ...". 3 weeks later and Yanks are sending Arod $314 million somehow.

I have a bad feeling this is going to end very, very badly for the Yanks. Put Hughes, Melky and Gonzalez in this deal and if the Twins don't bite then close the books on this ... it's getting ridiculous.

the more time passes, the more i dislike the deal. Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy can be the next 3 headed monster with the likes of Moulder, Zito, Hudson... but younger and the yanks have the money to keep them for as long as they want.

I'm afraid this doesn't bode well for us.

I'm not sure you can push the Twins around on this because I think they were, and are, intent on parading Santana to everybody in the league for the next three days so if upheld I believe we may be out of it which to be honest would actually be a relief for most of us.

At this point I don't think we can win anyway.

I'm afraid we'd do more damage than good by giving up 2 pitchers of the "Big 3" so if the Hughes/Melky/prospect offer doesn't satisfy the Twins it's probably a dead issue without a Cano addition...

At the point I guess we'll just have to hope Ian Phil and Joba are the second coming of Hudson/Zito/Mulder Josh Beckett's arm gets cut off in a horrible skiing accident.

Hank is getting played, but hes getting played against himself.

Kennedy, Cabrera, and 2 B-level prospects is better than any package Boston is willing to offer. There was no need to include Hughes.

lets get this thing done!
The Yankees need a # 1, Wang is not a #1, niether is Pettite, Hughes, Kennedy or Mussina and we still don't know how Joba will turn out as a starter. Johan is a proven #1 and thats what the yanks have been missin. Good pitching wins playoff games and things probably would have turned out differently if we had santana in game1 and 4 against the indians instead of wang. Next, work on the bullpen, nathan or street would be nice, give away farnworthless, get a good defensive right handed hitting centerfielder, trade matsui 2 seattle and play damon full time in left. If we do all that...... yankee stadium will close with a world series championship celebration!

Now take it one step further, Hank and take Hughes out of this stupid deal.

I hope this deal for Santana falls through. Let's show some of that patience they've been talking about for so long. We have the chance to have 3 real good starters for years to come. And don't forget Wang. He is only the winningest pitcher in baseball over the last two years. Now that he has a taste for the pressure of the playoffs he'll be better for it the next time around. Santana has been the best for a few years now and still is the best. The big risk is how much longer will he be performing at that level? There's an 8 year age difference between Hughes and Santana and all those innings Santana pitches every year come at a price. You just can't do those big numbers forever and keep performing at such a high level. Even if Pettitte retires, I'd be happy with a rotation of Wang, Mussina, Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy. Karstens also pitched well in the world champos. The Yankees have been burned too many times chasing big name pitchers. They now have a real good farm program going when it comes to their pitchers. Let's hope they stick to the script and show patience as they launch a new generation of young pitchers. Let's go with youth in 2008 and keep our young prospects.

Why does Hank have to make everything so public? What do they say to Melky and Phil if the trade falls through?

It would be great to shut down all the naysayers who always accuse the Yanks of "buying" their championships and see the club win big while spending less. And they'd be perfectly capable of doing it with Cashman and Stick's smarts.

Keep the Big Three and develop from within. Fill in holes through FA and key acquisitions, but keep the young core intact.

I totally agree with everyone. Back out of the Santana deal. Keeping Hughes would be huge, as he has been touted as "the Yankees savior" for a couple years now, and will most likely develop into a dominant starter. Let the red sox try to get santana for Ellsberry OR Lester, who do they think they are?

Who do they think they are?
They think they are a team trying to make a deal

By offering Hughes and Melky and another player, Hank's already being played by the Twins and the RS. Fool.

not commenting on whether the trade is a good one, but after all the deating regarding Hughes, is the inclusion of Austin Jackson,a AA player really going to hold this up?

Why give an ultimatum - just say that is our final offer The only thing the Yanks pulling out would do is allow Boston to get him for a lesser deal - jus plain stupid

Pull the deal, let the kids pitch. If Santana goes to the Sox, or anywhere else, he'll be a free agent the following year. Plus, didn't he have some arm issue the past year? 200+ innings the last four years, yet only one 20 game winning season. Wasn't combined stats of Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy better than his down the stretch?
Sign Rowand, trade Damon.

So i guess Ellsbury is a better prospect than Phil Hughes...Ellsbury's Value after his playoff series will NEVER be higher than what it is now and yet people are saying that he's a better prospect than Hughes?

come on now..

If that's the case the i guess Minn thinks that Francisco (Max effort delivery) is going to stay healthy for the next 5-6 years as well....that chance of that happening is as likley as the Royals winning a W.S this decade.

Ben Revere is only 2 years away from the Bigs and is EXACTLY the same kind of player as Ellsbury

Be realistic NYR......Liriano isn't going to stay healthy for a full season ESPECIALLY after T..J with his Max effort delivery.

Robertson is 2-3 full seasons away.

Perkins isn't going to be the Ace of that staff anytime soon either

CNNSI is repoting that the Yanks are balking at the idea of giving up Alberto Gonzalez...Are they joking????

This kid cant hit a lick - they have a young ulitity guy who can hit and SS 2B and 3b WILL BE LOCKEWD UP For the next 10 years...I am really not liking how they are handling these negotiations.

get a little creative and maybe get another guy back like Rincon

Good for Hank! The Red Sox have not really upped their offer. They merely tweaked it to make it look like something so the Yanks will up theirs. This is high stakes poker only it's time we call their bluff. And if the the Twins want more than what is on the table now, then the Yanks should walk away.

Right now, the part that bugs me the most, even beyond the possible of trading Hughes is that the current Yankees brain trust is just too feeble-minded and not anywhere as slick and smart as the RS or some other organization.

Their desperation to try to compete and keep up with the RS with every move is really going to keep them from winning the title until at least someone as competent as a Gene Michaels is back at the helms.

This ultimatum is positively necessary and a very wise move by the Yankees. It's not about making threats, it's about needing to focus on OTHER PLAYERS during the Winter Meetings. The Twins already know which deal they should take but they'll just wait it out as long as possible to see whether the Yankees or Red Sox bend further. They'll also wait to see if other teams join this trading game. While the Yankees are waiting for Minnesota to make up its mind, all the other aces will be swooped up by other teams. In the end I can imagine the Twins changing their mind and keeping Santana after all. While I'm happy we'd still have Hughes, I'd be terribly disappointed if we missed out on other fantastic trades watching the Twins use our talented players as bait to further their own cause.

I agree that Hughes/Kennedy/Joba could be the next Mulder/Zito/Hudson.
I think the one thing I failed to realize is anyone of them could emerge as a # 1 starter.
Folks on this blog seem to forget Kennedy was the MILB pitcher of the yr.This kid can pitch.
Joba could be the next Verlander.
The question is when ?
This year or next?

I'd rather the Yanks go after the likes of Haren or Kasmir.
Haren fell off towards the end of 07 much in the same way Santana did .I'd rather go after a solid #2 type pitcher than give up on one of the most highly prized prospects in a kid like Hughes.
But let the chips fall where they may.

If Yanks are balking over Gonzalez that makes no sense. Like Chris said, 3B, SS, 2B are all locked up for a minimum of 5-10 years (maybe Jeter moves to 1b or of in 5 years)!!! Where the hell could Gonzalez play anyway???

As for the negotiating tactics ... can someone talk to Hank and tell him to SHUT THE FFFFFF UP!!!!! Why does he always have to make the Yankees position public knowledge??? too much info is out there ... that means either (1) Hank is acting like a kid w/ a shiny new toy on Christmas morning and wants to brag to all of his friends or (2) someone within the organization can't keep their mouths shut (and that's a whole different issue)

Last point ... it makes no sense to pull out at this point. Nobody told the Yanks they have to keep upping their offer .. simply make the best offer you can and that's it. If Twins don't accept it then so be it. But, by pulling out completely, you allow the Red Sox to get stingier with their offer (they might have been forced to include both Elsbury AND Lester) or other teams to come in and get Johan for less talent than what the Yanks offered. It's just plain stupid.

And don't think for a second if Yanks lose out on Johan that they won't "panic" and deal roughly the same package of players for a lesser pitcher (like Haren). This is going to end up like a huge train wreck and Yanks will be at the bottom of the pile.

The Houston Chronicle is reporting that Andy Pettitte will return to pinstripes next season.

Awesome. They need him.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5347088.html

I think in this situation you must draw a deadline. These negotiations are already at least a week old and if you don't give the Twins an ultimatum to make a decision, they will hold off right through the Winter Meetings and then some. The Yankees can still make this deal with the Twins after today (this comment is not written in stone) -- but this deadline allows the Yankees to change their offer while allowing them to use the same players in other offers moving forward (something that might scare the Twins if they're really interested in our guys). Creating deadlines is a normal part of doing business, it's done everyday in just about every company because it's necessary to keep your business running smoothly. Sure it involves some risk -- but good businesses take risks. And if you fear taking risks, you don't belong in business.

From ESPN: Peavy reportedly near deal to stay with Pads through 2012

That just takes one more ace off the market. And CC Sabathia is not the answer ... the guys is a WIDE LOAD and will only get bigger. Plus, Indians are up and coming and they will lock him up. Yanks NEED Santana ... it would be COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC to think that any of the 3 kids (or others in the system) will wind up being as good as Johan.

Yeah, we can all hope and pray but seriously, Santana is the best pitcher in MLB right now and has been that way for the last 3-4 years and will CONTINUE to be that for the next 3-5 years!!!!

If Sox get Johan .. my oh my. I'll be sick. As Luke Sywalker once said to Yoda ... "I'm not afraid" and Yoda hit him back with "You will be ... you willllllllllll be"

Pettitte returning will definitely give the Yanks a little leverage with the Santana sweepstakes and a possible pursuit of Haren.

Now, they don't appear so desperate for a pitcher of their caliber.

Two things I've read in this thread that bother me a bit:

1. "Move Jeter to 2b or CF and sign Eckstein to play SS, Jeter has no arm".

Ant- Whatever was in that stuff you're smoking, get me some! You live in St. Louis, have you ever seen Eckstein throw a ball? My 7 year old has a better arm than that. The Yanks have no need for Eckstein at all. He's a leadoff hitter (got one- Damon), a 2B at best (got one- an all star named Cano).

2. Caspian said something about the Yankees moving on from the trade and building the team using the smarts of Stick Michael and Cashman.
Caspian- Stick Michael is FOR the trade for Santana. This is what sort of sways me to favor the trade because Stick either sees something in Hughes he doesn't like or sees something in the other prospects in the system that he does.
What do you think?

I've read a lot about the Yanks young trio being the next Zito, Mulder and Hudson but we need to realize that, and I've said this too many times before, these guys actually have a higher probability of being the next 3 mediocre major leaguers the Yankees pump up and then get disappointed in.

Santana is in his prime, actually he is entering his prime. He may even learn how to "pitch" even better than he has the past few years as we know that a lot of young pitchers "throw" well but don't learn the art or craft of pitching until they are in their early 30's.

Petttite return to Yankees?

[quote]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5347088.html

NASHVILLE – Andy Pettitte, who contemplated retirement this winter, has told his good friends, a few former Astros teammates and some current Yankees teammates that he will return to the Bronx for the 2008 season.

Through people close to Pettitte, the Chronicle has learned that the veteran lefthander has told family members and teammates that he has decided to return to the Yankees in 2008.

Last month Pettitte declined his $16 million player option for 2008 because he wasn't ready to commit to another season. But Yankees general manager Brian Cashman and Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner told Pettitte they would wait for him until February, if necessary, so he could take his time to make a decision.

That wait is over, and the Yankees have been informed of the decision by Pettitte’s agent, Randy Hendricks.

When reached by telephone this morning, Hendricks, who was in route to Nashville for the start of baseball’s winter meetings today, confirmed that he has advised the Yankees that Pettitte will play for them in 2008.

“Many teammates have called urging Andy to return as well as manager Joe Girardi,” Hendricks said. “It’s well known that the Yankees have publicly stated that they were ready for Andy when Andy was ready.”

Pettitte, who was 15-9 with a 4.05 ERA in 2007, played the first nine years of his career with the Yankees, winning four World Series titles while becoming the all-time leader in postseason victories by a lefthander. After those nine years in the Bronx, he played three seasons with his hometown Astros from 2004 through 2006, helping the Astros reach the World Series for the first time in franchise history in 2005.

The Astros offered Pettitte a one-year, $12 million deal last winter and then proceeded with other pitching plans when informed he’d return for $14 million. To replace Pettitte's spot in the rotation, the Astros ultimately made the ill-fated trade for injured righthander Jason Jennings, giving up Willy Taveras, Jason Hirsh and Taylor Buchholz in arguably one of the worst trades in franchise history.

Pettitte ultimately was lured back to the Yankees last winter with a one-year, $16 million contract and a player option for another year at $16 million.

The two-time All-Star is 201-113 with a 3.83 ERA over his 13-year career and 18-7 with a 3.97 over 35 postseason games.
[/quote]
Good News indeed.. Yes.. Welcome back Andy.

Yankee Bri:

Just noticed your post on the deadline issue. What you're saying makes a lot of sense but setting a deadline is not necessarily the same as pulling out. Technically there's a deadline on the offer, not a trade. If the Twins make a deal with Boston, then I think that's what they intended to do to begin with. If the Twins really want our guys, they'll come back to us eventually -- even after today -- asking Hank to reconsider. The Twins can use the same tactic that A-Rod used and beg their way back. The Twins can only hope the Yankees are still interested, that they have the same players available, and that they're still willing to trade. But I definitely understand your point of view.

On this issue I think a lot of people feel the Twins are totally in the driver's seat but I think they're more desperate than they appear. Santana is a one-year rental for them at the moment, so they realize the importance of moving him for a younger less expensive ace. Hughes seems to be the best option and they know it. The Twins also know that Santana must get megabucks or the deal falls through. The Yankees can afford to give him his money. While the Red Sox can afford it, I don't know if they're be willing to since their payroll might exceed $200 million in 2008 and beyond. I think they fear being the team with the highest payroll -- or more precisely they fear being the team with a payroll higher than the Yankees (and with the signing of Santana, the potential is there). The Twins need to take this into consideration.

YF

Excellent post. I agree with all your points. The Yanks just have to move on and not allow themselves to be "played" by the Twins. It`s a risk, sure, but it will also help to concentrate the minds of the Twins. If they`d really just prefer Ellsbury to Hughes (and there`s not much doubt now that that is the decision they have to make), then let them. But I doubt that`s the case. They want Hughes and they want Kennedy, and they need to be told it`s time to put up or shut up because the Yanks are not going to listen to anymore extortionary demands.

Frankly, Hughes is already too much. I would love to have Santana, like everyone else, but not at the point of a gun. And I`d far prefer to get him as a FA - cash only. If not and I`m the Yanks, I`m happy to walk way from this deal until the Twins come to their senses or make up their minds that they really want Ellsbury. He`s apparently on the table now, but guess what, Lester has been pulled off. The Red Sawk aren`going to give away the store and neither should the Yankees. Here are the two deals. Take one or the other and let everyone move along to other important business. Hank`s just injecting a little common sense into this discussion (and frankly, though some people may think that Hank is acting rashly and on his own, I`d be very surprised indeed if the pronouncement was not made in consultation with his "baseball people.")

I love Hughes but you have to give up something to get a Santana. Hank is being very smart by NOT including a second young pitcher. This is a good deal for both sides, & I like the deadline he has given. I love Kennedy. While he may not have the ARM of Hughes, he KNOWS how to pitch, is a bulldog of a competitor & I believe will give us many good innings for many years. Keep Joba in the PEN, especialy if Petite comes back, get a little more bullpen help & we are ready to go.

Two things:

Ken Rosenthal has confirmed that Pettitte has notified the Yankees that he will return. This is AWESOME news! Thank you Andy! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

More notes from Rosenthal (he's on XM radio right now)- He thinks, as I've said before, that Melky's value is overrated because he's a Yankee and that he says there is no way the Yankees will go with Damon in center, he indicates the Yanks have been working on another solution, but he didn't say what it was.

Lastly, and this is, if you are an old school Yankee fan like me, pretty damn important. Cross your fingers at 11 AM est today and hope that Goose Gossage FINALLY gets into the Hall of Fame. Let's hope these voters get their heads out of their arses and get this one right.
Good luck Goose, we're pulling for ya!

Ok. Big news! Thanks Jim A.

That changes things. Or does it? There's less pressure to make a deal now, but I'm not sure there's really any more leverage, is there?

What I mean is, Smith isn't suddenly going to start asking for less because the Yanks have a stronger rotation now that Andy's coming back. This is where I get tripped up with the whole bargaining thing. The offer's on the table; Hank would have to pull it back to gain leverage.

DC,
The Yankees need for Santana probably decreases a little, but in my opinion, not all that much. I think Santana + Pettitte makes the Yankees more formidable pitching-wise than they have been in a very long time. Add Wang and Joba etc. and the ripple effect would be big as the bullpen should not be taxed out by the all-star break this season.

What part of DC are you in? I live in Northern VA, so we're neighbors of sorts!

If they get him without having to include Bucholz than we've been HOSED.

I believe Roy is right that they played the Hughes hand WAY too prematurely.

Lester was great in that game but he's not an elite high ceiling guy like Bucholz and Hughes are atleast not IMHO.

Pulling out is fine if we could find a way to get Bedard or Kazmir which I'm pretty sure is highly unlikely...Interdivisional exchanges are rare and even when they happen it's never high impact blockbusters I would be shocked if Tampa or the O's would want to face their former pitcher 20 times for the next 5 years until then you can't pull out I think it's foolish.

If Hank leaves the table it strengthens Theo's hand considerably.

ANDYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WAHOOOOOO

Jim--I'm in G'Town. Where in VA are you?

So you don't think Hank's next move is to pull Hughes from the deal? I'm kind of hoping the next play is to re-insert Kennedy for Hughes in the Melky/prospect package and see which team (Twins, A's, O's, Rays) bites first. Realist had a great suggestion hyesterday of Haren and Street for a larger package, but I just don' see how Cash can put together a big enough group without selling the whole future and hsi soul (which is what Bean really wants--and would probably get).

Jim A et al...

great point on "stick" michael's vote for the hughes-santana trade (at least as reported). let's remember one fact - michael is the guy who basically built the 90's dynasty, recognizing the talent of jeter, andy, mo, posada and so on. he seems to have a very keen eye for talent so it does tell me something about hughes, or at least how high he values santana.

and honsetly the fact that cashman is apparently against the trade actually makes me feel better... from the guy who brought us igawa, farnsworth, weaver, brown, pavano... obviously he is attached emotionally to the "big 3", but his appreciation of talent is suspect to say the least...

Pettitte's coming back!

New York to Minnesota Twins: Bwa ha ha ha ha!

Our offer should now be Farnsworth and Giambi for Santana.

Wonder how much Andy's return had to do with Hank's tough-guy statement?

He certainly knew before we did...

I hope that's a lesson to any other teams that want to rob the Yankees blind.

The Twins can eat it. (Santana's salary and pending free agency, that is.)

Yeah, Diane, perfectly timed one-two punch.

One, s**t or get off the pot -- you're on deadline.

Two, and by the way, our rotation just got stronger anyway...

Wash up? He won 15 games last year? How many wins does Schilling won last year... what?? What?

Pettitte, who was 15-9 with a 4.05 ERA in 2007, played the first nine years of his career with the Yankees, winning four World Series titles while becoming the all-time leader in postseason victories by a lefthander. After those nine years in the Bronx, he played three seasons with his hometown Astros from 2004 through 2006, helping the Astros reach the World Series for the first time in franchise history in 2005.

Good News indeed.. Yes.. Welcome back Andy. The Yankees homegrown pitcher.

Oh is that so?, The Yankees hitters owned Redsox so called aces with Beckett, Schilling, Dice-k in 2007 Please look up it . They had high Era versus against Yankees.. Oops..

Yup, Redsox won the world series this year after beating small market teams lousy like Rockies and Indians. The Yankees won series against 10-8 Redsox. Too bad, The Yankees aren't in Nl, Let see If Redsox beat Yankees face them in playoffs.

Yankees 26

Redsox 7

Still long way to go.

How many years The Redsox have choked before winning world series in 2004? 86 years....

Wow, According to Redsox Fans 26 titles doesn't count, past accomplishment meant nothing at all. Where's is the respect?

Same thing with Yankees, Did Yankees asked them to play Indians?

Redsox Fans can't accept that Rockies are small market ballclub . It's not even a competitive World Series this year. What a joke...

Pettite won two world series without Clemens by his side.. 1996-1998.. Look it up....

Don't Blame The Yankees. It was Arod who went to Tampa by himself and set up a meeting with Hank Arod decided to return to Yankees by his own merit not playing for any other team like The Yankees. Blame Scott Boras who decided to take Arod opt clause

True, But Rockies suddenly become a Big Market team? I don't think so.

Anyone read past the eighth paragraph of Anonymous' post?

DC,
I live in Ashburn, out past Dulles Airport and I work in Herndon, right off the toll road.

I don't think Pettitte's return changes much of anything from the Yanks or Twins perspective. I don't think a deal was ever getting done without Hughes in it and If anything, it may benefit the Yanks as now that Andy is back the Yanks would have (w/ Santana) at least 3 dependable, innings eating starters and won't have to worry too much if the young guys struggle. Andy's return also buys the Yankees a year (or more) to get other kids like Brackman or Sanchez healthy and see if they will pan out. Depending on two kids in the rotation is a lot easier to swallow than 3. I don't count Mussina because I just don't want to see him on the team next year.

Michael P--you're right. It would seem that whoever threw Hughes into the deal really jumped the gun--at least from what we're hearing of the discussions. As long as the Sox weren't including BOTH Ellsbury and Lester or Bucholtz, the Kennedy/Cabrera/prospect package was keeping them at bay; and it never looked like we were going to beat a Ellsbury and Lester or Bucholtz package, anyway. Hughes should have been held back as a last resort. Once he was offered, there was nowhere to go but Hughes/Cabrera AND Kennedy, which is what Smith asked for on Friday night, apparently. Now, IMO, they need to pull Hughes off the table and get the heck out of Nashville with their souls. If they give up the original package (with Kennedy) for Santana or another SP, fine, so long as they sign Rowand. But I'm done with this high stakes poker game. I don't think Hank is stable. He's liable to lose the title to the franchise.

Great news on Andy Jim - thanks.

From the NY Post:

Steinbrenner said he has much respect for Hughes and Cabrera.

"Santana is the only player in the majors that I would trade these players for," Steinbrenner told The Post. "I've given (the Twins) to (today) to make their decision.

"We've made them a good offer, it's up to them to take it or leave it. I don't low-ball and I don't high-ball. This is a good offer. I feel good about our chances."

The Yankees insist they will not include, as the Twins want them to, either pitcher Ian Kennedy, outfielder Austin Jackson and perhaps one of two or three other cherished prospects as the third piece behind Hughes and Cabrera. The player is expected to be more along the lines of shortstop prospect Alberto Gonzalez or pitcher Jeffrey Marquez. Thus, the Yanks want Minnesota to decide if this package is good enough. Or else, the Yanks claim, they will move on without Santana, even if it means he goes to the Red Sox.

Randy Hendricks, Pettitte's agent just confirmed Andy's return on XM radio. All I have to say is....WHEW!

From ESPN's Scouting Guru Keith Law on Yankee prospects who may or may not be talked about in trades this winter. Pay special attention to Jesus Montero's name. I'm a big fan of this kid:

New York Yankees
The untouchable: The Yankees have issued a long list of untouchables -- just as they did in July trade talks -- but Joba Chamberlain clearly tops the list. Best known to casual fans as a dominant reliever and a favorite target of midges, Chamberlain also projects as a No. 1 starter should the Yankees follow through on their plans to return him to the rotation. He has a plus fastball up to 98 and holds his velocity deep into games, with an excellent slider. His curve and changeup are projected to be average pitches.

The bait: Austin Jackson, Jose Tabata, Alan Horne and Ian Kennedy are all allegedly off limits, as well, which doesn't leave much else in the system for near-in prospects who'll have significant trade value. The Yankees could look to include reliever Ross Ohlendorf, a Princeton product with a low-90s fastball and breaking ball with good depth, or to cash in some of their lesser minor league arms, such as Jeff Marquez (average fastball without a solid second pitch) or Kevin Whelan (excellent splitter and average fastball but very poor command).

The sleeper: The past two years have seen a shift in the trade market as teams have become more willing to acquire players who have played only in short-season or rookie leagues, including Max Ramirez in 2006 and Engel Beltre and Neftali Feliz in 2007. The Yankees could offer teams a high-upside hitting prospect in Jesus Montero. A catcher with virtually no shot at staying behind the plate, Montero received a $2 million bonus from the Yankees last year and had a strong U.S. debut; he's strong and projects to hit for average and power, and he already shows strong pitch recognition.

Gil--Bingo on Stick. Don't forget to throw an assist to several crucial players: Buck Showalter (who kept the kids in line), Don Mattingly (who taught them how to be Yankees), and Howie Spira (who made the whole thing possible).

Jim--excellent point on the innings-eaters and the 2 vs. 3 kids in the rotation. As for your list of future tossers, what about Betances? He was big time back home. Is he still too far away to tell?

ERIC.....Got to agree what other organization could be smart and slick as the RS to sign Lugo-4yrs,Drew 5yrs and pay over 100 mil for Dice-K and then give up three good prospects for Gagne.

Thanks for the quote, Chip.

HS: "I don't low-ball and I don't high-ball."

I think he high-balls.

Have you seen him chug through a cigarette?

Andy's Back ! Woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now take the Santana offer off the table and watch how fast Boston lessens their offer...The Twins may have waited too long to get this done and possibly have lost the upper hand ;-)

Nothing wrong with Hank telling the Twins that after Monday the Yanks will be forced to look elsewhere for a SP, but to make that public, and then "blow off" about "not being played", hurts the Yankee cause. Hank should just shut up, and see what the Twiin responce is. First he blows the negotiations by throwing Hughes out there far too early, and now he "publicly" issues an ultimatum to a seller in a sellers market. This "bull in a china shop" approach in negotiations with other teams, hurts the Yanks both short and long term. The word will spread quickly among GM's concerning Hank.

More from the winter meetings coverage I've been listening too:

1. Billy Beane told the Yankees they will not get Haren for less than two of the "big 3". I knew he would say that and the Yanks should just thank him and move on.

2. Santana has told the Twins he will veto any trade that does not send him to NY or Boston and as we heard earlier, he will veto a trade during the season.

It's pretty clear that I won't be doing anything at work today, I really should just go home but my mother in law is visiting.

Just The Facts, despite all that they still managed to win the two World Series in the past three years. Everyone makes errors but the Red Sox are outsmarting the Yankees more times than not. They are getting more for the money, which no one can say about the Yanks.

As for Jim A.'s comments regarding Gene Michaels. I wouldn't be so naive about what I read in the papers. He might just be saying he agrees with the trade so there doesn't appear to be any sort of antagonism in the front office but who knows how he really feels about it deep down inside. Until he is really running the show, I would put too much into what the papers say he said. ;)

Roy:

It may not be pretty, but I'm glad Hank got tough with the Twins. He should have been around during the Knoblauch negotiations.

The offer on the table is more than enough to compensate the Twins for losing a one-year rental in Santana. That they didn't immediately take the offer shows they're playing games. How *should* he have responded to the Twins' tactics? "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

Eric,
I actually heard him say it on ESPN radio...live, in person.

The fact that Beane would consider trading a good, "cheap", young player\Haren should send up warning flags. This is not his MO. I'd stay away from Haren. Kat's scout and Haren"s "splits" are cause for added caution.

"Jayson Stark says Beane asked the Yankees for two of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and Ian Kennedy for Haren. With the Red Sox it was two of Clay Buchholz, Jon Lester, and Jacoby Ellsbury. The Mets would have to pony up Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez. With two starters under contract through 2010, Beane and the A's are sitting pretty."

hahahaha is Beane Joking? If the Twins aren't even looking for two of the big three then how can he be asking for 2 of the big three?

I would not give up more than Kennedy out of those three.

ED-
Nothing wrong with "getting tough", but Hank doesn't have to go "public" with his ultimatum. That is just Hank pounding his chest, and hurting the Yankee's effort.

I never thought I'd say this but Roy actually has a good point about Haren.

We're all thrilled Andy is returning - but just remember, right now all we've done is returned the same team that didn't win the World Series last year. The major change is that instead of opening the season with a rotation of:

Pettitte
Wang
Mussina
Pavano
Igawa
and using Jeff Karstens, Darrel Rasner, Ty Clip, Chase Wright, and Matt DeSalvo the Yankees will have:

Andy
Wang
Mussina
Joba
Hughes
opening the year with Kennedy, Horne, Marquez all ahead of those others on the depth chart.

I would still like to see the team get another veteran arm, either Freddy Garcia or Mark Prior as insurance against a kid not developing or Mussina being as bad as he was last year - if not Santana or Haren then maybe something along the lines of a Ben Sheets or Jarrod Washburn. Also the team still needs to do work in the pen - with Viz unsigned the only returning vet in the pen other than Rivera is Farns - and while kids like Ohlendorf, Sanchez, Veras, Ramirez, and Melocan may help I would certainly feel a little better about things if there was an established guy back there for Girardi to turn to. Maybe a Damaso Marte?

Hank's ultimatum might be his way of pulling out of the deal without pulling out of the deal. Everyone knows the Twins want to shop Santana at the winter meetings to all teams and see all offers. It's what they should do unless they know they're not interested in any other players other than what NY and Bos. have to offer. I'd be surprised if they take the deal now.

I do think Hughes was added to the deal too quickly, they could have been a little more creative with all the good arms they have now they could have said all along that Hughes and Chamberlain were untouchable and see if the Twins were still interested in offers.

The Twins don't really have the upper hand at all. If they don't get this done now Johan is not going to OK a trade mid-season, so they too are a bit desperate to make a deal. Obviously they would be fools to take any kind of discount for him but still they want to get something back for him instead of loose him at seasons end.

I hope that this is the final offer though, there was some snickering by the media in this morning's papers that they didn't believe his ultimatum and wouldn't be surprised if he also included Kennedy in the deal later on using the ARod deal as an example of the worth of Hank's ultimatums.

I’m glad Andy’s back! Thanks Andy! We needed you!

I'd love to see him opening day!

Now Beane is trying to fleece the NYY , NYM and Sox...lol!

Time to walk away and let the "young guns prove us wrong and allow Melkey to keep CF warm for AJ ;-)

Jim A., I know he said it but it might not be from the heart, if you get what I mean.

I can't get over people complaining about the Knoblauch trade. The Yanks won 3 WS in a row after that trade, for crying out loud. And CK was an integral part of those teams. Milton was a good pitcher for a handful of years, but he disappeared pretty quickly. Guzman was a nice player and a great athlete, but there was nowhere to put him. Besides, just ask my local Nationals, who needs a leadoff hitter who doesn't get on base and who's always hurt?

Beane is looking to sell high on Haren. No one ever said he would come cheap but there's no way that Beane can expect to get for him the return that the Twinkies want for Santana. It would be like me trying to sell a BMW for the price of a Ferrari. Plus, I think Beane views Haren as one of his few marketable assets (along with Nick Swisher) and would be thrilled if he could get back a couple of players for him and also gets the team trading for Dan to take back one of his bad contracts (Crosby, Kotsay, Chavez)

Rumors had already been circulating about Cashman being the holdout and Michaels and Hank being in agreement about putting Hughes on the table in the Santana trade, so Stick's live comments on the radio were confirmation more than they were news.

I think though that Yankee fans who oppose trading Hughes want to believe that the prescient Stick Michaels must 'really, in his heart' be on their side.

Saw a great new DVD this past weekend that just came out. It was that wonderful recount of the 2007 World Series. It was so great to see it all again! It brought back such great memories!

Hey the Yankees were even in it in the extras to the DVD. It was as apart of the ed Sox Al East clin'cha!

Remember...when Melvin bunted down the 3rd base line, thus coming back from 3 runs in the ninth only to win in extra innings to beat the Yanks to put the AL East away for the Red Sox?

So close....but yet.......so far away were the Yanks and the Red Sox this past year!

So so far away!

I highly recommend this DVD to any Yankee fans. You can see what it takes to be the best team in baseball all season long and then putt'in it all away in 7 straight to WIN IT ALL!....AGAIN!!!!!

OYF, interesting point about Hank's way of getting out of the deal. But does a guy who clearly wants to come across as an ultimatum-making, hardball player really care about how he gets OUT of a deal? I guess it shows that we really don't know who this guy is yet, or certainly not how to read him.

I'm with Hank, actually.

LET'S GET MOVING ON IMPROVING this team.

I know he'd love to come home from the winter meetings with a nice holiday gift for us fans, who've waited out the long process of merely re-assembling the Yankees of last season.

Well guess what? I'd love to see him in his Santa suit!

It seems to me that in a trade of this nature, typically, the team that holds the rights to a pitcher of Santana's quality is the team in the drivers seat. That may not be the case here.....it appears the Sox are the team that really is playing from the position of power. First, the Sox have alot less need for Santana than the Yanks, secondly, in spite of what Hank and some of you on here says/posts, the Sox have a package that the Twins covet more than the Yanks do.....otherwise the deal between the Yanks and Twins would have already been struck. I think the Twins are hoping that the Sox capitulate and offer Ellsbury AND Lester or Bucholz.....which I dont believe the Sox will do. As I stated before, in Lester they have a LH pitcher with 3 ++ pitcher who has ML experience and can step right into the #2/3 slot. The Yanks cannot offer that. Hughes "may" be a better pitcher eventually, but to this point, he is not. Clearly, the Twins value Ellsbury over Melkey, which is a bit of a surprise...Melkey, imo, has as good of upside potential as Ellsbury...but in a different way. Melkey will likely be more of a Paul O'Neil type...solid average, decent power, and decent defense, great arm....Ellsbury has the makings of a damn fine lead-off hitter in the mold of a young Damon, who can steal a ton of bases and play stellar defense (yes I know his arm isnt a bazooka...but there is alot more to defense than having a howitzer for an arm), but he will never be a "pwoer hitter", though I DO believe that as he matures and fills out...he will likely be a 18-25 hr guy. Busholz is on par with Hughes...they are about the same value as of right now...the rest, Masterson/Bowden for the Sox match up well with Kennedy and Horne for the Yanks.

I said before that I think that Lester is the real key here...how badly does Minnesota want a LH pitcher who HAS performed at the ML level and is likely to only get better? Billy Smith has a tough choice to make...because it seems evident that he wont get both Lester and Ellsbury. Does he go with proven ML talent with Melkey and hope that Hughes is all he is cracked to be?...or does he go with Lester, again, proven ML talent, and hope that Crisp can fill the void in CF and the other prospects develop into ML solid pitchers....or does he take Ellsbury and the other part of that package, and hope he turns into the phenom he has shown himself to be in a very short stint?

In any event, it would seem that Theo has the upper hand, because he really doesnt HAVE to do anything....you'll notice that the Sox are being very quiet about all of this....no announcements or declarations of "how our players are better than theirs"....or arrogant ultimatums......like a good poker player, Theo is just nudging the pot along and watching to see if/when he should make his move.

I've also stated, and I stick to my guns on this...in spite of how good Santan is, I hope the Sox do not part with Ellsbury or Bucholz....there are other options that will bring the same results without the huge cost of talent, money, and contract years. Santana will open up a can of worms, financially, for either the Sox or the Yanks. The Sox would have to address their contract with Beckett, for one, and the Yanks will be committing over 50mm/yr on two players...I dont care how much money you have...that is a whole lot of bananas and it will cause some backlash.

ERIC.....More slick moves by the RS. They offered salary arbitration to Gagne and are looking to sign 42yr old Timlin.
That inept Yankee front office over the last few years only stockpiled their farm system with quality prospects and also made another dumb move this year by signing three FA players that were rated in the top four in the Latin American League.

Hank shouldn't be allowed to negotiate with Beane. That's an unfair competitive advantage for Oakland. Bud should do something about that. Something on the order of a Baseball Aptitude Sharing program, maybe? The small aptitude FO's could benefit from the knowledge of the high aptitude FO's, maybe through tutoring programs and seminars. One of the conditions would be that people in the high aptitude strata (like Beane) couldn't make trades with people in the lower strata (like Hank). Think Bud would buy it?

Great news about Pettite!!!!!!!!!!
The Deal being taken off the table for Santanna is even better!!!!!!!!
If we can dump Mussina for a Single A pitcher & pay half his salary it would be a perfect day!!!!!!!
Our Rotation next year would then be:
Pettite
Wang
Chamberlain
Hughes
Kennedy

IF THAT HAPPENS I WILL BE VERY HAPPY CAMPER!!!!!!!!

Cas - The reason the Twins value Ellsbury over Melky is that they value speed as the number one asset a player can have (as evidenced by the fact that they continue to employ Jason Tyner) The Twins know that speed, for the most part, is less expensive than power and so try to build teams around that aspect of the game more than anything else.

I can't argue with Hank putting a clock on this. There is too much for the Yankees to do to get caught playing these games and still come away with nothing to show for it. I do think though, that if the Yankees walk away from the table the odds go up to about 75% that Johan ends up playing out this year in Minnesota because if you take the Yankees out of the mix then there is no reason for the Red Sox to continue to offer Lester and/or Ellsbury and the Twins can probably do better than what they would get with a couple of first round picks.

LOL...NOT offering Gagne arbitration would have been a brain-fart...he aint gonna take it, and the Sox will get a sandwich pick in the draft.

Timlin?....for what he's getting paid, and for what he brings...I dont think you'll find too many baseball people who will point to that signing as a bad move.

nice try.

I agree with your post whole-heartedly Chip.

I would caution those who are happy that the deal may be taken off the table after today with two things:

1. There is nothing that says that a deal can't be put back on the table at a later date

2. You're not allowed to complain if Santana goes to the Angels or Boston.

LOL, DC Yank... :-) !!

However, it may be a joke with a short shelf life.

Hank is a rookie, we don't yet know if he has significant upside...

FYI fellow bloggers....it's Gene Michael, not Gene Michaels.

I'm sure it's a pet peeve of his..

Just The Facts, you make it sound like the Yankees are the only ones stockpiling young talent. But now that they at least have enough brains to do that, what are they going to do with them is the key. I'd say overpaying and wasting them away in a trade is not very smart.

By the way, since you love to throw out examples, why don't you tell me about these:

Johnson, Giambi, Pavano, Brown, Damon, Igawa, Farnsworth, Weaver, Wright, Clemens Part 2, Mussina, Contreras, Vazquez?

And we still haven't seen what will become of their latest big contract resignings of Rivera, Posada, ARod will turn out.

I don't understand the strong negative reactions to this deal. IMO, anytime that you can trade a prospect for the best pitcher of the decade, in his prime, you have to do it. Hughes COULD be the next Santana (although I don't see it), but we can trade him for the REAL Santana!

And I know that people are saying "stop worrying about the Red Sox," but the fact is that if they get Santana for Lester and Ellsbury, we can kiss our championship hopes goodbye for the rest of the decade.

AND, if we pull out now, the Redsox can pull Ellsbury from their offer and re-insert Crisp, since the Twins would have nowhere else to turn.

Chip,

I will point out however....Theo may have put some sort of "timeline" on his offer too...he is just keeping it out of the media. In a trade situation like this...the media IS NOT any teams friend.

Thanks for the reminder, Jim A., I know it's 'Michael' but my fingers seem to want to type Michaels.

My bad.

Details On Angels' Cabrera Offer

UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 10am: Peter Gammons says the Marlins are no longer insisting on both Adenhart and Santana. He thinks the deal can work.

FROM 12-2-07 at 2pm:

Jon Heyman has the latest on the Miguel Cabrera situation. As you know, the Angels are frustrated but have left the door open for the Marlins to approach them regarding their offer.

We also knew that the offer had both Howie Kendrick and Jeff Mathis in it. The other players: one of Nick Adenhart or Ervin Santana, plus a "mid-level" pitching prospect. The Marlins wanted both Adenhart and Santana, prompting the Angels to throw up their hands. Marlins ownership (Loria and Samson) are the ones pushing for both pitchers.

This is from MLBtraderumors.com.

It could be very significant...because if the Angels get Cabrera, you can bet your bottom dollar that Billy Beane will go on a house-cleaning rampage.

I'm willing to give him a chance, so long as he stops making stupid football and war analogies. But I like Cashman, and I've always loved Stick Michaels. The thing that works best--and that the Boss never figured out how to do consistently--is to surround yourself with the best baseball minds you can find and LISTEN TO THEM. Cash knows how to do that, but where is he these days? He's been relegated to assistant stapler by some offensive lineman with a nicotine addiction from some military academy. And this guy's gonna go up against the likes of Beane and other baseball lifers with Lombardi quotes? I'm scared.

Sox Fans says Must Get Santana Now That Petitte's Back.

http://boards.boston.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&webtag=bc-redsox&tid=41838

[quote]
Posted by BO1 on 10:14 AM

Now that Petitte will be back w/ the Yankees it has become more important to keep Santana away from the Bronx. A rotation of Santana, Petitte, Wang, Chamberlain, and Kennedy would be very good. We need to keep winning and putting the best team out there to compete in the AL East. We need to get Santana. Theo should add Lester to the deal and ask the Twins to include someone else as well.

The Red Sox have expressed interest in Ben Sheets who is a very good pitcher when healthy but he is almost never healthy[/quote]

[quote]

Posted by RSNS14 on 10:38 AM

just out of curiosity, why is it expected that Joba or Kennedy will be good starters? Joba had some great relief appearences but has 0 starts at the ML level. Scouts have stated that his violent delivery and high velocity could be problematic in a starters role. Kennedy....he looks good but not anywhere in the vicinity of Buchholtz. Wang doesn't scare me anymore either. Petitte had an amazing year but never went more than 6 innings that often. Yes Santana would bolster that rotation but if they get him I'm not really going to be all that nervouse. Go on youtube and you can see Ortiz hitting HR's off of Santana. Tavarez also beat him this year[/quote]

Omfg Redsox Fans becoming spoiled and act like Yankees Fans. They just won World series this year . Redsox Fans still not content that they have Beckett as their Ace in their starting roation?

I agree with PTRS that compared to Hughes, Lester's ceiling is like that office in Being John Malkovich

He's a nice pitcher, a nice guy (like I'll ever hang out with him)
and he won the clinching game of the World Series.

But he's a #3 at best and probably a #4

I don't understand the train of thought that says "He's 28 and that's when pitchers flame out."

Really?
Is this Logan's Run all of a sudden?

John Smoltz, Tommy Glavine and Greg Maddux all seemed to get to their 30s without riding the carousel.

Randy Johnson won 5 Cy Youngs after his 28th birthday

Curt Schilling had three 20 win seasons, three 15 win seasons, a 17 win season and pitched great in three different World Championship post seasons after age 28.

And you can credit conditioning, but how does that explain David Wells winning 214 games after his 28th birthday? And throwing in a pair of Cy Young worthy seasons in the process.

Yeah some pitchers break down, some don't.
Some players seemingly bound for Cooperstown flame out (Saberhagen, Valenzuela, Gooden) but to just say "He'll be 29! He will fail!

Yeah Pedro Martinez got hurt badly when he was 29 years old...
But he followed it up with a 20 win season and two more solid years in Boston before a good first year with the Mets.

That's 4 years, one Cy Young contending season and 1 solid World Series performance after what looked like a career crippling injury.

I think we'd all take that.

The Yankees should have told the Twins and only the Twins of this deadline and then shifted their focus at the meetings as a way to show the Twins they were moving on. And then make the deal later, even after the deadline as long as the major components of the deal didn't change. There are no other players out there that the Yankees would deal Hughes AND Melky for anyway. I don't see why they can't look at other options and just leave the Twins to mull it over.

Chip
I will not complain. I enjoy watching young talent mature like in the early 90s. Seeing Melky, Cano, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy & Duncan play and not trade them would make me a very happy Yankee Fan. I do not need to win the WS this year or next as long as the Yankees are bringing in the right players and developing there young talent. Jeter, Rivera, Posada, & Pettite are the perfect veterens to teach these kids how to win.
If only CHOKE-ROD was gone everything would be perfect in Yankee land.

Roy:

By taking his threat against the Twins public, other teams may be a lot less inclined to screw with the Yankees in negotiations. The Twins, after all, have done a LOT of selective, not-for-attribution leaking in their Santana negotiations with the Yanks and Red Sox. Why don't you complain about the Twins? Why just complain about Hank? Or are there different rules for the Twins?

And DC:

Knoblauch never matched with the Yankees what he did with the Twins. The Yankees could have gotten a better deal out of that Milton-Guzman package had the Twins not rooked them.

Casual Observer,

The media may not be any team's friend, but they have been many a team's tool.

This tool has many uses. Sometimes it's a megaphone, sometimes it's a spreader of your misinformation, sometimes it's a way for Posada to give a shout out to Santana...

Eschewing the use of this tool is in better taste, but it is by no means always better business.

HOF announcement coming right now....will update.

Jim A.--What Diane said. Stick "Michael" for me, too. Thanks. Man, that certainly would bug me.

Chip, you can also count me in as someone who will not complain regardless of how the trade/no trade will turn out.

Sully is right, 29 is NOT old for a pitcher. In this day and age, pitchers who have great location and off-speed stuff can be aces well into their 30s.

And is anyone else even mildly concerned that Hughes suffered TWO injuries last season that kept him out of the rotation for months? Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Carl Pavano....

Diane,

With all due respect, the media isnt exactly painting Hank in the best light. He isnt helping himself any, imo.

Sully,

Logans Run!!!!!....great flick, and (excuse me here please ladies) Jenny Agutter was the source of many fantasies in my youth after that movie. YOWSER!

As much as the Yankees may spend this winter to restore the glamour, two years ago they couldn't have been in the Santana Sweepstakes because their farm system didn't have the talent they have now. "What Brian [Cashman] has done in a short period of time is amazing," says one GM. "A lot of us realized that it would be scary if teams with the big money were run well, and that's what's happened because of Cashman and Theo Epstein."

Maybe I missed something but they weren't electing players today or something?
Billy Martin got less than 3 votes....what a joke.
Dick Williams and Doug Harvey (ump) got in. Bowie Kuhn also got in.

This was probably just the veterans committee vote.

Nobody had any questions at the press conference, that's funny as heck.

Anyway, sorry for the false alarm regarding Goose earlier. I guess that comes when the BBWA votes. Does anyone know when that is?

The turn-around for both the Yanks and Sox farm systems over the past 4-5 years has been simply, utterly, amazing....I agree, both org's deserve alot of credit.

The HOf vote has been announced in January in the past. Don't know if it changed this year. I think the ballot just went out last week.

Casual,

Hank looks awkward in the limelight, of course, but if his objective has nothing to do with HOW HE LOOKS, then we do not know whether he is helping himself.

I hope his objective is to help the team, and suspect that his little 'outbreaks' in public may be well-coordinated behind the scenes with his baseball people.

In that case it will be well worth the snickers and smirks to get what the team needs while opponents enjoy the spectacle...

Speaking of brain-farts Casual Observer your right ,after the success he had with the RS there will be a great demand for Gagne's services but what happens if he accepts arbitration.
Your also right about TIMLIN. What he brings to the RS along with Wake and Shill are three pitchers who have a total age of 124 yrs. and look at the cost, peanuts compared to what we are paying Drew and Lugo.

Ed, I'm just saying, three WS championships in a row after the trade. Do they do that without Chuckie? Maybe, maybe not. IMO, they certainly don't win 125 games in '98. In any case, 3 championships in a row: what the heck do you want? Also, I seem to recall a number of people speculating before the trade that CK wouldn't do as well away from that swimming pool they call a baseball stadium in Minny/St. Paul. I'm not sure they got rooked. I think they knew what they were getting. Milton didn't exactly turn into the 20-game winner they were hyping him to be. I agree CK's throwing yips were a surprise and his career took an alarming turn and early exit. But I'm not sure they got rooked. In any case, I don't recall anyone saying so before 2001. It's easy to call the trades four years later.

Observer,

I disagree with your comment that in these negotiations the media is not theo's friend. Look, we both agree that Cashman and Theo PROBABLY would be thrilled if Santana just went to the Dodgers and all of this went away right? But they have to stay in it because the other one is in it. So by using the media to get the word out that one of them is backing away from the table, that allows the other one to walk away too and move on to other business.

Diane,

Of course his intent is to help the team....there should be absolutely no doubt about that. I really doubt his "sound-bites" are orchestrated by his people however......what you see is what you get with Hank....much like his father.

Never been to the rodeo?

Then you might not guess that clown out in the ring has a very serious purpose.

good point Chip...I cant argue with that line of thinking.

Hank's job at these meetings, as I see it, is to keep the hoards of press occupied while Cashman talks to agents and GMs.

LMAO....Grampa with the post of the day!!!

Casual says:

"...what you see is what you get with Hank....much like his father."

Unbelievable luck to have someone on this blog who knows them well and can interpret them to NYY fans.

It's official! Pettitte is coming back. So now the Yanks can play hardball with Minnesota. Santana, Pettite, Wang, Chamberlain, Kennedy sounds far more intimidating than Beckett, Schilling, Wakefield, Buckholtz, and Lester

In the end, with Santana, Sabathia, and Peavy all being FAs after this season - getting Santana right here, right now, is not as imperative as it may appear.

I mean here's a possible scenario - the Red Sox get Santana for Ellsbury and others this year and have Beckett and Santana fronting their rotation. Next winter, with Giambi, Pavano, Mussina, Farnsworth, Andy, and Abreu all coming off the Yankees' books, who is to say that the Yankees don't go out and sign both Sabathia and Peavy and enter the new stadium with a rotation of:

Peavy
Sabathia
Joba
Hughes
Wang

I would take that against:
Beckett
Santana
Dice
Bucholtz
Lester

Chip, I wouldn't be surprised if the Yanks would probably be dumb enough to resign some of those players to large contracts. :D

Cas--How's the weather in Maine. Getting snowed on? Thinking of heading up to old New England, myself, this week.

I agree with you on the turnaround. Both franchises have done well in recent years. And while I hate to be the one to rain on the parade like some small market whiner, we shouldn't overlook the significance of the organizations' financial strength in the development. You probably know all this, but just in case: both teams have international scouting systems that other organizations envy and sign young players from abroad for contracts that small market clubs can only drool at. In the draft, despite low positions for more than a decade, the Yanks and Sox have been drafting well in recent years because both teams take advantage of their respective wealth by drafting high-risk picks (i.e. tough-signs & college commits) that other teams pass on.

Plus, the Yanks at least have been making a concerted effort to trade huge contracts for young pitching in the last couple years (see Sheffield and Johnson). Anybody know of other ways the Sox and Yanks have improved their farm systems' standing?

ESPN reporting that Peavey's close to signing an extension.

Chip, Santana is NOT going to be a free agent next year if he gets traded. He has a no trade clause and won't waive it unless the team that gets him signs him to an exteision. If things were otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Yankees aren't going to give away Hughes and Melky for one year of Santana's servies - they're doing it so that they can sign him to a 6 year extension! Likewise, if Boston gets Santana, he's going to be with them until around 2014.

NSH: I'm a bit slow these days--migraines, bad ones--so please bear with me, but I don't quite follow your last post.

DC:

I know. I totally forgot about Knobby's World Series MVPs. Oh, er, wait. Never mind.

Seriously, he was good, not great. It was a deal the Yankees didn't have to make. From a payroll perspective, the Twins certainly got one over on the Yankees. From a talent perspective, the very best it was for the Yankees was a wash. Who knows? If the Yankees had Eric Milton, they may not have had to have relied on guys like Kevin Brown or Jeff Weaver.

But since the Knoblauch deal, I haven't trusted the Twins and I don't trust them now. And I certainly agree with Hank's ultimatum.

DC Yank:

Very, very sorry to hear about your migraines. Don't know how you can even look at a screen, let alone pay attention to my sarcastic dig at Casual's presumption in explaining Hank to us, implying that he knows Hank well enough to be sure that 'what you see is what you get, much like his father'.

Feel better.

Did I see Sully pull out a "Logan's Run" analogy? Well done...awesome movie , decent TV series.

CO getting snowed in , we are up here...

Lastly , move on from trading and let the kids play ;-)

Jim A.

I think I remember in other years it was early January. But I'm not sure.

I still think that Santana really wants to come here and not Boston, it's a funny feeling that I've got and it’s mainly because of another Venezuelan player in our roster - Abreu.

Believe me when I tell you, Latin players stick together, especially when they are form the same country. Call me crazy, but it’s a feeling that I’ve got for a while now.

Great news about Pettite returning, it should really help our rotation.

Yep....snowing hard right now....about 8' so far and should stack up to about 1 1/2 foot by tomorrow morning....put on your snow tires for the trip!

Hey Anon,

I lived in NYC during the Torre championships... I never seemed to remember Yankee fans after a World Championship acting satisfied saying "Nah... don't try to make any trades or make the team better. We're fine as we are."

The thing that the Yanks smartly did in the 1990s is they didn't really covet all the big bats that were floating around.

They won 4 titles with Bernie topping the single season home run lead at 30.

But they brought in pitching (Key, Wells, Clemens, El Duque... even Irabu and Neagle, which didn't work out but how badly did it hurt if they won the World Series?)

I'll throw Mussina into that list as well even though they never won the World Series with him. He was part of the 2001 team and if that 9th inning in game 7 that he didn't even pitch in goes well, then his signing would have been hailed as one of the best in Yankee history.

I want the Red Sox to ignore the Cabreras and Andruw Joneses of the world and concentrate on making the pitching staff better and better... Schilling and Wakefield aren't getting younger.

I want the Red Sox to stay hungry... just like the 1998, 1999, 2000

ERIC....Pavano,Clemens,Contreas all were players the RS wanted.In fact, they offered more for Pavano. Yankees and Theo trashed his hotel room when he foung out Contreas was signing with the Yanks. Damon is a player they are sorry they let get away and Johnson had 34 wins in two years while pitching hurt most of the time. We also got prospects in the trade as well as the Sheff trade.
You are the one who stated the RS are outsmarting the Yanks. You are the one who called the Yankee brain trust feeble minded and not anywhere as smart or slick as RS. I just stated my opinion and cited a few facts to point out your statements were not accurate.

ED-
I don't care what the Twinks do whether it be good, bad or indifferent. I do care about what Hank is doing as it "hurts" the Yanks. Once the word spreads among GM's concerning Hank and his big mouth, not only will no team "screw" with the Yanks, extremely few teams will "deal" with the Yanks. We went through the same thing in the 70's with Billy Martin and the umps. Due to Billy abusing umps, the Yanks couldn't get a close call, and any time Billy went on the field to question a call, he immediately got "bounced".

Eric
I have had a problem with the Yankee aquistions since Clemens in 1999. I did not want to trade Wells. With that said the list of players I never wanted and I said this as soon as they were signed not after the fact were:
Clemens I & II (hated him)
Mussina (I never felt he was a #1 starter
Giambi (Everybody new about the steroids)
Brown (Too Old)
Johnson (Too Old & he always said early in his career he never wanted to pitch in New York)
Choke-Rod (I Can not beleive we traded Soriano for him)
Sheffield (Malcontent)
Pavano (Useless)
Weaver (Useless)
Wright (Useless)
The only player I liked when they signed him was Damon. I have since changed my mind the problem is he has no arm & a defensive liability.
Abreau I liked when they signed him & still like him. He is the only player that they brought in

8", I mean

how much you got up there in Millinocket, Realist?

Ed:

Fair enough.

"He was good while we were winning championships, but later we might not have had to spend so much if we hadn't given anything up to get him?"

I simply can't argue with that kind of logic.

But if you're right, don't blame the Twins for getting the better part of the deal. If you're angry cause you got beat in a deal, go punch a mirror.

NSH,

I dare say that "presumption" runs rampart in this blog, as it does on so many others...isnt that the point? Are you above all presumption yourself? Never made any comment with out "the hard facts"?

Dig away, my friend...I enjoy a little banter now and again.

I try to make one Logan's Run and one Close Encounters reference a day

It is good for my blood pressure.

About 4" so far....getting the snowblower ready , be safe ;-)

Good news for the Yanks chances on landing Santana soon....

3rd December, 2007 - 12:03 pm
FoxSports - According to major-league sources, Johan Santana has informed the Twins that he would not waive his no-trade clause during the season, ending any chance that he could be moved before the July 31 non-waiver deadline.

Players with no-trade protection occasionally adopt such positions when they are in the free-agent years, fearing that their performance could suffer if they change teams and/or leagues just months before hitting the open market.

The Twins have said privately that they will be content to keep Santana if they do not receive the right offer this off-season, then entertain the possibility of trading him in July. But Santana's stance greatly increases the chances that the Twins will act quickly

No worries Realist...I have a 4 wheel drive, and the snow is powdery, not wet and heavy, at this point. Besides, I'm stocked up with everything I need, and other than one trip to town (1 1/2 miles away) at 2pm for a meeting...I have nowhere I need to be. The fire is crackling in the fireplace...lotsa great food in the fridge, plenty of water/lamps/candles if we lose power...I am all set!

Ed: sorry, I shouldn't characterize your arguments with so much dripping sarcasm. Your points are valid. Milton was a good pitcher, and Guzman's an exciting player. And I caught myself ducking a few times when CK had the ball--even in the bleachers. Still, I'll take the rings, and I think he was an integral part of those teams. Migraines getting to me. Maybe tomorrow we'll be talking about who pitches after Santana, Pettitte and Wang.

Out, folks. Have a great day!

wait a freaking minute !!!!!!!!!!! Knobby was,nt a great trade for the yankees??????

please press ALT CONTROL DELETE and get away from your PC

ugh...migraines....hideous. Feel better DC.

Roy you do not know what the **** your talking about.What Hank did was take a stand and told the Twins that they would not be held hostage much the same as the Angels taking a stand against the Marlins. Much the same way he stood up to Boras. He will not cave or be played.Billy Martin was one of the best managers in the game compared to Torre his teams played with passion.

Heh...very interesting read:

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282

Just The Facts, perhaps the RS may have wanted those players as well but the whole point is that the Yankees were the one that ended up overpaying for them. If you overpay for something, it doesn't make you smart. Get it?

Evidently, NSH....my "presumptions" are fairly close to the mark eh?

Eric the Sox offer on each of those players were more than the yankee offers and those were moves the team felt they had to make .

ERIC, if the RS were willing to pay more how smart does it make them? Like I said you were the one making the inaccurate statements and by the way don't even try to compare the farms systems and that is also a fact.

ok folks...out for awhile...got to get ready for my meeting....play nice.

Baloney. If anything the RS were probably in it to drive up the price for the Yankees, as usual.

Anyway, I just wanted to throw this one out there also:

Yanks got Johnson from the DBacks one year too late.

RS got Schilling at the right time also from the DBacks.

Result: Johnson with Yankees, no WS rings.
Schilling two WS rings.

Not sure what you imagine the ST columnist's remarks have to do with your 'presumption' about knowing that what you see is what you get with Hank?

If you just repeating the notion that Hank should be schtum before the media, I have to go with Diane, who pointed out (above):

"The media may not be any team's friend, but they have been many a team's tool.

This tool has many uses. Sometimes it's a megaphone, sometimes it's a spreader of your misinformation, sometimes it's a way for Posada to give a shout out to Santana..."

You see, it has now served as a way for Hank also to shout out to Santana, and the silly Minnesota columnist is broadcasting that shout again in case JS didn't get it the first time.

Believe me, the Twins won't press the notion that answering press questions amounts to tampering.

Casual Observer you are an out of touch homer who said that Ellsbury was a 5 tool player and raved about that lap top theif Buchholz and didn't even know how to spell his name. Yup, you stick to the "hard" facts and the check is in the mail now go out an milk the bull you idiot. Sully is the only Sox fan in here who sometimes knows what he's talking about and he likes to twist the words.

Sorry, Casual, forgot to address my 12:34 response to you by name.

Roy, what exactly do you think is going to happen? That the Twins will say, "Well the Yankees are offering the best package but since Hank is a loudmouth we're going to take a lesser deal and send Santana to Boston."

Agents will deal with the Yankees because they have the most money to spend. Other GM's will deal with the Yankees because the Yankees will have things they want just as they have things the Yankees want. To think that someone is going to not deal with a loudmouth owner is insane. Teams have been dealing with the Yankees for over 30 years while they've had the biggest mouth in the owner's box there is.

Once again Roy, you are jumping at shadows.

Alvaro,
Thanks for the HOF info, I'll look it up in a bit.

I think Santana and David Ortiz are very good friends from their days in Minnesota and with Bobby Abreu most likely leaving the Yanks after this season, I don't know if Santana would actually sign with the Yanks to be with him. I hope so though.

ERIC, the RS were in it to drive up the price and Theo trashed his hotel room while Lucchino called the yanks the "Evil Empire" for effect but the truth is they offered more money. The fact remains that your claims are baseless.

Hank's right. This is baseball, not poker. The offer is the one the Twins asked for, not the one that was originally offered by Yanks. So, Yanks are saying,"We are not going any higher". Any unbathed Bosox fan is gonna say their offer is better, but we all know Hughes vs Ellsbury is in favor of the Yankees. Twins will be putting a #1-2 starter in their rotation to replace some of the wins they will be losing from Silva, Santana and their recent trade of Garza. Only a FOOL would believe an Ells"dingle"bury trade WITHOUT Lester-oil/Buck-hole is better than Hughes/Cabrera and Gonzalez. If the Twins are that naive, then let Santana go to the Redsux. We got Andy back, so the demand for Santana is not so great. Thanks Andy! Welcome back!
And, who knows, if the Twinkies really come to their senses......Welcome to NY, Johan!

Rotation:
Santana/Hughes
Pettite
Wang
Joba
Kennedy (why isn't he included in the rotation over Moose?)

Chip,
Roy is still upset that Hank stiffed him on the tip last time at the restaurant.
Whaddaya expect for bad service? Get one right one day!

CHIP-
Anytime your disrespected by anyone, in any line of business, your much less likely to deal with them in the future. Hank could have just informed the Twins he had to have an answer by Mon, and not gone public with his so called "ultimatum". This was both disrespectful, and selfserving. Hank is currently digging a hole for the Yanks. No team is an island.

Roy,

Your reasoning about sales only works in an enterprise with non-exclusive goods, where the same items are for sale elsewhere. The nature of sports business is that the merchandise is only available at one 'store'. If they have goods you want to buy, you deal with them, whether you like them or not. It's only in mass marketing that grinning a$$kissers make the sale happen.

Jimbo,

I don't get the impression that Stick is down on Hughes so much as he knows that Hank wants Santana badly, and that throwing in Hughes would be the only way to acquire Santana. But from what I've read, it sounds like Stick would prefer to keep the Big Three intact.

I'm just saying Stick is a great talent evaluator and made some really savvy moves in the early '90s. I remember when he got a young Melido Perez, Domingo Jean, and Bob Wickman for a declining Steve Sax (the kind of trade the Yankees used to do in reverse). JT Snow for Jim Abbott, Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill. He also brought in Key, Wetteland, Boggs, and built up a great bullpen. Not to mention drafting Jeter, Mo, Posada, Pettitte, Ramiro Mendoza, and others. Sure, some of the pitchers I mentioned ended up flaming out under Showalter's abuse of their arms, but if they'd been used properly, the Yank dynasty would have started in '93 instead of '96.

By the way, we're in the same neck of the woods.

The biggest trade of all that didn't happen is when the Boss ordered Stick to trade Bernie Williams and Stick told the Boss there was no interest.

Yep, I remember that too. And he resisted George's orders to trade Pettitte for Mark Langston. Where would we be without Stick? Someone should retire his number.