E-Boland and the Bombers

Merry X-mas Kat and Happy Holidays......

Kat,

Many thanks for your efforts to keep this a good place for Yankees fans to gather and share fan-thoughts! Wishing you safe and happy travels until we meet again.

Fellow fans,

I'm closing down due to house-guest season! Every day from now to the 28th I'll be either having them or being one, so my blogging time will be next to nothing for a while. I hope to check in occasionally, but in the meantime I thank all my 'virtual friends' for all the entertainment, company and information we've shared, and look forward to many future sessions of the same! Warm wishes for the best possible holiday season!!

merry xmas to all....

maybe we will get an xmas present and Hank will actually shut his mouth.

I was going to say Johan, but I know many disagree with that although I cannot see why you wouldnt trade a maybe fo a gaunteed ace.

Also, may be time to start worying a bit with the news that Joba may pitch out of the pen. That means we have to watch Moose pitch every 5th day. I guess I wont be watching every 5th Yankee game. I cant stand to even watch him and eally hoped that the Yanks would unload him to an NL team where he would still have some value. In the AL especially the AL East a right handed junkballer which is what he has become is just brutal to watch.

So my wish list to Santa is the following

1. Johan under the tree without having to give up Kennedy in addition to Phil

2. Someone for the bullpen. Sign a couple of failed starting pitchers and give them a try in spring training. 200 million dollar team and we cant find someone to pitch the 7th and 8th

3. Mark Pior

4. Hank to shut his mouth

5. Cashman to gow a set and to stop treating every minor leauger like they are the next coming of Cy Young

Great point from Viper on the last thread:

Why is it that Jeter will go to bat for any other player on the team including an alleged steroid user, but he wont say anything about ARod.

I know that he doesnt like the guy, but it is his responsibility as Team Captain to stand up for his guys. The more he neglects ARod the more I lose respect for him. How about after the series loss to the Indians saying, " Hey, none of us including me hit anything. Hell Posada stuck out in game one with a chance to change the seies with one hit."

No support for ARod is childish. I dont know what goes on in the clubhouse, but outwardly ARod seems to be a team guy from what he says to the pess. Sure it sounds fake, but at least he ties. More than we can say about Jeter when it comes to ARod questions

Kat:

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you, You have done a fine job keeping us informed and especially as you learned our desires for info. You be safe and enjoy!

The following are excerpts from articles that I believe add to the circumstantial evidence against Roger Clemens. These articles are not difficult to look up and confirm their accuracy as well as Clemens record before and after his stint on the DL.

On July 1, 2000, the following excerpt appeared in a New York Newsday article titled, “Justice, But No Relief/Yanks Bullpen Blows up Again” by David Lennon, “Perhaps worst of all, Roger Clemens lived through a session of hitting golf balls alongside the free-swinging Jose Canseco, who currently is on the disabled list of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. “He’s like one giant vein,” Clemens joked as he described his bulky former teammate. Clemens has spent the last two weeks at the team’s minor league facility working his way back from a strained right groin.”

On July 3, 2000, the following excerpt appeared in a New York Newsday article titled, “A Case of No Strain, No Gain/Clemens Comes Off the DL a New Man,” by Lawrence Rocca, “While rehabbing at the Yankees minor league complex in Tampa, he saw George Steinbrenner frequently. The Boss teased Clemens about having it easy. One day Clemens got to hit some golf balls with Jose Canseco.”

In July 2000, Clemens, in six (6) starts, was 5-0, with an ERA of 1.91, after returning from the disabled list. His prior start was on June 13, 2000 versus the Boston Red Sox when he left in the first inning.

One other thing - sorry for being so verbous, but is George ever going to say anything again? Is he still involved in any decisions. It seems as if he has totally disappeared off the face of the earth and I really miss him.

Best owner in sports histoy who arguably changed the way the sport is promoted - turning players into celbeties and beginning the era of sports being events (sports radio 24/7, every game televised, headlines year long, hell even ESPN owes George a lot

ps - posting is really a pain - i may have to switch to another blog - sorry Kat

On the last thread someone wrote about The English Patient

Well, how about The English Patient Too.

In the sequel there are TWO women in the cave and they find each other and learn how Ralph Finnes was cheating on them.

Would that work?

Kat,

Thanks for all your hard work. Reporting in Detroit during that 3 am game was really great! I hope you have a Merry Christmas!

And to everyone else ... Happy Holidays!

I am in an especially good mood as I've gotten some amazing news of late!

Chris23,

GS has a below average win rate as owner of the Yankees. Check the numbers. He isn't even best winning Yankee owner.

Kat - Hope your Christmas and New Year's are spectacular. I enjoy the blog and the insights. I also appreciate all of the effort in tracking down all of this information and these stories. As you already know, lots of people of reading this every day. Thanks.

Nudge,

Name one active owner with more rings than The Boss. He has six of them.

MLB has changed quite bit since Steinbrenner bought the Yanks. That's not to say he's the reason for all of the changes, but he's part of the reason why the AL is far better than the NL these days.

The dynasty of the late 90s, the high payroll, and revenue sharing have forced other AL teams to spend money in order to compete.

When you have two powerhouse franchises in the same league - the effect on the rest of the league is enormous.

Ant,
Your boy Josh Hamilton was just traded to the Rangers today. I guess we'll get to see a lot more of him.
I never heard of the guy he was traded for so I guess Cincy really wanted to get rid of him.

HOW CAN YOU POST ON THIS SITE?????

I was speaking more about the effect that the Boss had on sports, baseball in particula. He recognized that players could be made into celebeties and the importance of headlines. I feel that much of the hype around sports is due in large part to him. He really changed the way people looked at players/teams/and owners.

Jim A.,

Maybe they were afraid he would try crack again.

Hopefully you will like his arm and bat speed which are the best in all of MLB.

And I hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas.

Reese Witherspoon and I are watching Longitude, a movie about the invention of the at sea clock to measure ... longitude.

It is always fun to keep up with the baseball news!

Oh, and my security code is 554837

Nice to see you Nudge!

Ant

ANT THAT'S CRAZY !!! Jamie Lynn Spears and I are watching MYTHBUSTERS and putting the finishing touches on our Douglas Fur!!

CHEERS!!!

Happy Holidays to all!!!

INCLUDING CHIP!!!! AKA "PACKLEADER"

SHAME ON YOU "BRI" FOR FAILING TO SALUTE OUR SUPERIOR OFFICER!!

=)

PS.

I hate to brag....HAH

r..i..g...h..t...

But to all you golfers out there my holiday greetings are coming live from Ponte Vedra Beach FL at the Stadium Course!!

I'd love some help defending our team and subsequently-my beloved Yankee attire!!

1. I use Calloway Warbird balls special Yankee decal'd

2. My bag is navy and white
3. My FJ dry joys (awesome golf shoes) are special edition Yankee issue

If i could only find a left handed glove with Michael Jordan on it I'd be complete!!!

--Side note....Why does Jeter wear a vintage "Air Jordan" pair of batting gloves??
.....Never could figure that out.

Anyway...

These folks down south aren't too fond of my choice in apparel.

I'm out numbered!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

PS. Jim I live in midtown manhattan if you really are serious about getting together with a bunch of us for a game I'd definitely be on board!!

Tommy Byrne passed away yesterday in North Carolina at the age of 87.

Tommy will go to his grave wearing a Yankee cap. It was his life long dream to be a Yankee according to his son.

Byrne played fo the Yanks from 1943 -51 and from 1954 - 57. In 13 years, he was 85-69. He was an All Star in 1950, but his best year was 1955 when he went 16-5 with a 3:15 ERA.

Byrne was a top hitting pitcher who Stengel would occasionally use as a PH. His lifetime BA was 2:35 with 14 Hrs and 98 RBI's in 601 AB.

While Tommy lived a long and fruitful life, our thoughts, naturally, go out to his family and friends. And all of us on this blog can hail another great and loyal Yankee.

Rest in Peace, Tommy Byrne, another true Yankee forever.

"Jingle bells Pettite smells, Clemens used roidsssssss. The Yankee brass fell on their a^^, and the Red Sox got away... HEY!"

Sing it with me......"Jingle bells................."

PTRS,
You are having trouble finding Yankee fans in Florida? I run into nothing but Yankee fans whenever I go see my brother in West Palm Beach.
Speaking of your golf bag, I was bidding on one of Joe DiMaggio's navy/white golf bags when his estate put them up for auction and I fell asleep as the bidding was about to end and missed one by $30....I was p*ssed!

Have a great time golfing and enjoy the warm weather.
I was dead serious about hooking up at a game so we'll talk about it more as the game approaches, the only other time I may be at the stadium next season is the all-star game, my company promised me a ticket to the game and I intend to hold them to it.

Ant: I always liked Hamilton as a player, I hope he keeps playing well and enjoys his success.

Joba Rules!

Jim.

I am the one that one that bid you feel asleep on. I use it as a urinal while on course. Smells better now that I have owned it!

I found at least three needles in the ball bag section. Didn't know they had roids back then!

WON...sorry, I was laughin so hard I had a yankee brain freeze.

Anon,
No worries, my consolation prize was Ted Williams' head, which I bought on ebay for $65. It's fun to kick it around the yard w/ the kids.

Jingle bells Ortiz likes Fried Chicken, Schilling and Manny used roidsssssss. The Redspx brass fell on their a^^, and the Mitchell got away. with Redsox names.. HEY!"

Sing it with me......"Jingle bells.............

Well ... putting the finishing touches on the all the Christmas shopping. I bought 12 or 13 presents for Reese Witherspoon. She wanted The Endurance (Shackleton ANTarctica expedition documentary) and I wrigged that out of Blockbuster and got them to sell it to me!

I love to give away presents. Christmas is really about kids, but it is so much fun to give! What could be wrong with that?

Went to lift weights ... then got all the food we needed and I will make my eggplant parmisagna ... then Monday morning head to Lakeland where the 80 or so Resse Witherspoon DNA people will be waiting with all their babies and cuties and twins and the rest of the gang!

Also I have a bit of good personal news I wish to share with all of my great friends here on the Blog ... Out of the blue, and it's been a long time coming, I have received an eight year renewable contract offer overseas ... all tax free, amazing pay level -- not that I care about money I don't even own a watch and only own three pairs of shoes -- one of my students, Erin, owns 300 pairs of shoes! -- free housing, health insurance and I only have to teach a few courses in ESL, globalization and Journalism (not teach 7 courses and sub for three others in the SAME semester!) 20 weeks paid vacation. I will help with the university paper.

Additionally, I have been asked to take the students on Journalism Adventure trips to Australia, India, Tibet, Nepal, Burma, New Zealand, Thailand and Cambodia. This scares me a little because I've always been operationally deployed alone overseas in the field. That is an awful lot of responsibility and risk, but then again they've offered me a hell of a lot ... Who am I to say no?

And yes Michael PTRS, I promise I won't get romantically involved, not even with the good looking, naturally blonde coeds who've "been in love with me since last October" and "want (my) gorgeous babies!" (It's hard being Anthony at times!!!!!) Ha ha!

This has been a very very hard year but it is ending on a great note.

BTW, I was asked by a publisher in Florida to write a book about teaching, and I am two thirds done. I really didn't think I would be able to do it (Hughes Your Daddy Criticism) but I did manage to pull it together ... It should be out by the summer. It was a lot harder than I thought it would be. Writing a book means grinding it out, like a baseball season ...

Bless everyone and Merry Christmas!

Ant of Security Code Number 186485

You can make a great case that the commenters on this blog are by far the dumbest on any Yankee blog.

Jim....True or false that Teddy ball game wa the best hitter ever?

False. The Babe will always be the greatest hitter ever.

He was way ahead of his time and changed the game forever.

Best hitter ever?
Tyrus Raymond Cobb.
Look it up.

so let me get this straight? The yankees are giong to watch the innings pitched for their three young guns?????????????/

That means you need a strong relief correct?

please tell me who is setting up for the aging mo ???????????

Well, things really have quieted down this weekend before Xmas!

Kat, thanks for hanging in there with another great article. You've come through big time for us. Mery Christmas to you!

Finally, I'll say it again, I love thinking about the Yanks young rotation in 2008 and beyond. It's an exciting prospect having so many exciting prospects!

Merry Christmas everyone and Happy New Year - and it will be a happy new beginning for the Yanks for years to come!

Best Story of 2007—Red Sox Outlast Yankees...Yet Again

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5255-MLB-New_York_Yankees-Boston_Red_Sox-Best_Story_of_2007_Red_Sox_Outlast_Yankees_Yet_Again-221207

The World Series win was not the news of note in Red Sox Nation this summer and fall—no, it was the continuing domination of the formerly great Bronx Bombers of New York.

Did they really win that many championships, or is it only a figment of their collective imaginations?

Even the foibles of "Give them the game Gagne" sans steroids could not deliver the AL East to the hated interlopers from the south. Speaking of steroids, we all must wonder how good the Yankess really were given the haze of chemistry that filled the club house in the "House that Ruth Built," in the late 90s and early 2000s.

So, we no longer fear the August malaise. And we no longer fear the pinstripes. Even the new stadium cannot bring back their greatness, we lament. That is the big news for those of us who speak with the Southie accent or the West Roxbury twang, who routed for the Patriots when Babe Parilli or Steve Logan threw, who believed in the Celtics of Jo Jo before Larry, and who will always remeber that Jesus saved but Espo scored on the rebound, who recalled that the Bean Pot was the best hockey in the world, and that Paw Sox had the best stadium for baseball in all the world.

Narragansett Lager can be enjoyed again in the backyards of Lowell, and the stands by the Fens and the Sox are even more entertaining than in the days of Yas, the Conigliaros, Foy, and Aparicio.

Sadly, we must wait for a worthy opponent to rise from the Steinbrennerian ashes. In the meantime, we await Master of the Universe Theo's next move

Omg this guy is an idiot. The Yankees won season series 10-8 only lost out by 2 games.

26 rings...nuf said.

Ant Colony could be the most dilusional poster on this blog. I don't even know how to react. I will say Merry Christmas( No X-Mass what are we celebrating here?)and a Happy and Healthy New Year to all.

And please say a prayer for our Troops and all the sick and poor people in the world.

Peace

Hey Newsday, What's with the codes? Are we going to be edited if you don't like what we post? I thought these type of senorship was only done by the Clinton Adminstration or the Soviet Union. Now I will post, please feel free to stop my posting at any time, if you disagree with what I am writing..This is a very comforting feeling..don't you feel warm and fuzzy inside

Ty Cobb played in a watered down talent pool.
You can look it up.

I hate the codes on here...
Oh well.
Have that be the worst problem in my life

It must be sad to call other people's great news a delusion Phil.

You must be VERY unhappy with your life.

May the peace of Jesus Christ enter your heart so you can give love and worth to others.

I'll be sure to pray for you, and our troops, hunting for scrap metal, infected with depleted uranium, women with limbs blown off and the rest of the insane nightmare.

Anthony

Hey there Delilah
What's it like in new York city
I'm a thousand miles away
But girl tonight you look so pretty
Yes you do
Time square cant shine as bright as you
I swear it's true

Hey there Delilah
Don't you worry about the distance
I'm right there if you get lonely
Give this song another listen
Close your eyes
Listen to my voice it's my disguise
I'm by your side

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
What you do to me

Hey there Delilah
I know times are getting hard
But just believe me girl
Someday I'll pay the bills with this guitar
We'll have it good
We'll have the life we knew we would
My word is good

Hey there Delilah
I've got so much left to say
If every simple song I wrote to you
Would take your breath away
I'd write it all
Even more in love with me you'd fall
We'd have it all

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me

A thousand miles seems pretty far
But they've got planes and trains and cars
I'd walk to you if I had no other way
Our friends would all make fun of us
and we'll just laugh along because we know
That none of them have felt this way
Delilah I can promise you
That by the time that we get through
The world will never ever be the same
And you're to blame

Hey there Delilah
You be good and don't you miss me
Two more years and you'll be done with school
And I'll be making history like I do
You know it's all because of you
We can do whatever we want to
Hey there Delilah here's to you
This ones for you

Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
Oh it's what you do to me
What you do to me

It's funny how someone who can't even spell censorship is going to rant and rave about Newsday's right to take measures and moderate their board.

It has nothing to do with censorship. It is essential for all blogs to have a moderator, especially one which generates as much traffic as this one.

I don't like having to type a security code every time I post a comment either, but I understand why they have taken these measures. Spammers were running wild under the old format and taking up a lot of unnecessary space.

Registration would work much better to getting rid of most spammers as well as keeping the vast majority of trolls away.

Also, it would be nice if certain jackasses would leave religion/politics off a baseball blog, but they continue to post their nonsensical diatribes anyway.

Can't respect anyone who doesn't have the courtesy to keep their rants and gibberish to themselves which have nothing to do with baseball.

Viper, my thanks for once again trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion. We can only hope that folks who want to get up on a soap box will find their way to a blog that welcomes them to fulminate against whatever persecution complexes bedevil them - and leave this blog to baseball.

Please! Most of us have to contend with enough trouble in our daily lives and with the world's many miseries without having to face them still again on a baseball blog where we'd just like to talk baseball.

Merry Christmas to you all - and thanks again, Viper, for trying to remind everyone what this blog is suppose to for.

nice name Lanny!!!

I have noticed a curious blog pattern that I thought I would mention just to see if anyone else sees the same.

It seems IN GENERAL (there are always some exceptions) that the same "gang" of posters that take up for AR are the same bunch who don't think giving up Hughes is worth a Santana. That in itself seems odd to me because if you love the "greatest player ever", then you SHOULD also want to have the "greatest AL pitcher".

Then there's the "gang" that want to trade for Santana even if the deal includes Hughes. This gang as a general rule have the more pessemistic view of AR. I would even go so far as to say that these two groups usually side the same way on most other controversial topics as well. Does anybody else see this trend in views? Just wondering.

Anyhow, the real reason I'm on here (if I can succeed in getting my post through) is to wish all of you (my Yankee blog buddies) a very Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and the wish for a Healthy New Year!!! Although we all, at times, disagree on specific issues, we ALL love our Yankees.

Rick - There IS a pattern developing, what does it all mean???

I have something for you ALL to read. Its a SI article on Justin "Joba" Chamberlain. Its long but worth every second spent reading it. I truly believe that if there were more men like Harlan Chamberlain raising kids, this world would be a better place.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008/

FYI - I was fighting back the tears on page 7.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!!!!

Rick,
I think I am the exception to the rule you've mentioned above.
I take up for AR, and think he's an all around great player and I wanted him to remain a Yankee, but I also want Santana, even if it costs Hughes. Actually, my true preference is that the Twins hang on to Santana for this season and the Yankees pick him up next Winter. If he has to be traded, which at this point is a must for the Twins, then I wouldn't mind seeing him go to the Dodgers.

Dru- Thanks for the tip on the article. I'll grab a box of Kleenex and read it now.

Dru,
The link didn't lead me to the story, can't find it on SI.com either.

Really? I just tried it again and it worked =

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008

What Love's Got to Do with It
Joba Chamberlain has taken New York in a blaze of glory, his success traced to a nurturing father who used his own tortured youth, Native American roots and some lessons in humility to fan the flame inside his son

Posted: Wednesday October 3, 2007 11:36AM; Updated: Sunday October 7, 2007 2:57PM

Try it again, if not Ill post the whole damn thing here! Its that good!

Jim, go to SI.com and put "What Love's Got to Do with It" in the search. On page 4 you will see =

Gary Smith: Joba Chamberlain has taken New York in a blaze of glory (10.03.2007)

That will bring up the article as well.

The comparison between A-Rod and Santana is absurd.

The Yanks didn't have to give up any of their young guns to retain A-Rod. It's going to cost them money and that's it.

There's not much doubt that Santana would already be a Yankee if the cost came down to dollars and not the young talent in return - especially two of their prized young pitchers in Hughes and Kennedy.

Not a valid comparison because A-Rod was a FA and Santana is not.

Dru,
It still didn't work but I found it by searching for Joba Chamberlain, I haven't read it yet, but here's the full link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/10/03/joba1008/index.html

Not only do I see a trend in the pont of view with AR and Santana, I am fankly shocked by it. Personally, I love AR and think that he truy wants to win in NY and from what we see pubily he is a team player - he stands up for his teamates and makes no excuses fr his poor pay in the post season. Everyone love Jeter for good reason but it bothers me that the Captain refuses to ever say anything good about AR.

As for Santana - we should be a over this guy YEs, Hughes may turn out to be something speial, but you have AR and Jeter in their primes, Mariano nearing the end of his dominane (1 maybe 2 years left of greatness) - same for Posada, Wang entering his prime, Joba looking ike a kid who will suceed immediately and Pettite's final year although I still think he has a ot of gas left in his tank. The time to get Santana is now. By the time Hughes becomes Santana (if he does) these players will be past thei prime.

As for the contract Johan wants - take a look at next years pitchers available - Sabathia, Sheets, Penny, and Lackey (if his option isnt picked up). It is very likely that the market for eite pitchers gets up to the 20 milion a year range within the next 2-3 years. Hell, think about what Bekett will get.

I coud be wrong, but I think that the Twins woud take a package of Hughes, Melky, and Horne/Marquez/Melencon, plus a lower level guy (someone please explain to me why Bettances is untouhable after having thown only 30 proffesional IP and being at leat 3 years from the bigs)

I think this deal is about the Yanks not wanting to give up Hughes, but they are puting on this front that it is the back end guys. If they dont want to do the dea because of Hughes than just say so, but dont tell me that future bak end of the rotation starters are that important when the farm has about 27 bak end of the rotation starters. I don't like the way this is turning out. If they were willing to overpay drastialy for Mo and Posada and give AROD all that money than they shoudl invest in Santana and realize that he is not going to fre agency - why do you think they have not outright rejected the Boston deal yet? That is their fall back plan and if Theo gets Sanatana for a fall back deal than once again, as has happened so many times the past 5 years, he has gotten the better of Cashman.

this posting system needs to be fixed - it is a joke and a rya pain in the a$$

Chris - I understand your point, as I do with all Yankee fans that want to sign 'The Great Santana'. We are not just built for this year though; we are at the dawn of a new Yankee era. Cano, Joba, Phil, Ian, Melk are just the beginning of the new crop of Yankee stars. Our AA, and AAA teams led their leagues in wins this past year. The AA team won the title while the AAA made it deep into the playoffs. No other organization in the league can claim that. What does it mean? It means that the talent level of the minors is very high and is close to being ready. Is also means that there will be a turnover in the Yankee roster within the next 5 years. In 2 years the following players will be gone....Giambi, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Farny, Andy, Moose, Pavano. Of those names listed above, how many have won a ring? Just the homegrown product, Andy. We built up a dynasty in the 90's with our homegrown talent. Then we got greedy and signed every FA we could get our paws on. Has the method worked since 2000? All the players we signed were cant miss players. How many times in the past 7 years have we heard ESPN or sports radio shows talk about how Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Jason Giambi or countless others were going to put the Yank over the top. How many of these cant miss FA's have we seen the Bronx chew up and spit out? When will enough be enough. Believe me I know how great Johan is, Ive followed him as closely as anyone due to fantasy baseball. We need to stop this madness though. Enough is enough, even for Santana. We tried the ‘giving away young talent and signing the best FA’s on the market’ method already, it hasn't worked for us. Why not give this way a chance? All Im asking for is one year, just for one year lets try and focus on developing our homegrown talent? If it doesn’t work Im sure we will go back to the tired method of bring in more overpriced vets to stink up the roster, I promise.

Kat - I have not had any issues with the new security system.

Dru,
I read the Joba article and it was a great read. Thanks for the tip.

The great Santana debate continues and will continue until he is traded somewhere. I've sort of stated like Chris did, that the best we can hope for Hughes to be is the next Santana and if Hughes were left handed I would probably have even more of a hard time with the idea of trading him but to me that's the final deciding factor. A stud lefty on the mound for the Yanks for the next 7+ years suits me just fine.

Agreed Jim, but this is not a 1 for 1 deal. Listen nobody is going to convince me that trading away Hughes, Kennedy, Melky and Horne or another top prospect is worth Santana. I base this on my belief that there is just no way he can duplicate the numbers these past 4 years over the next 7 or 8 years. I also think that Melk will be a 20/20, +.300 hitting cannon armed CF for the next 15 years. I also believe that Phil and Ian will go on to great things over their career, more so with Phil. Even if it was a 1 for 1 deal and Phil is 75% of Johan, he's still 8 years younger and has much less wear on the arm ( Johan led the league in innings the past 4 years ).

On the flip side I know that I cannot convince anyone that trading for Johan is a bad thing. I mean 4 prospects for the best SP in the league? AND he’s a lefty? AND he’s not even 30 yet? The cards are stacked against me and my brethren big time on that argument. Its like trying to stop an avalanche with a shovel.

Like so many things though, its not as black and white as trading 4 maybes for a definite. Lets look at this another way.

We trade for Johan….give away the 4 guys I listed earlier…sign Johan to a 7 year, 200M dollar extension. 75% of Yankee fans are against the trade; I base this on a Newsday poll that asked if we should trade for Johan or continue with the building from within plan, 75% of the Yankee fans wanted to keep the kids and build from within. On top of that the Yankee GM publicly said he did not want to make the deal. Now that is a lot of pressure going against Johan. Can he live up to that pressure? Maybe, nobody can answer that question. Many players claimed to be ready for the big Apple, but failed. But lets continue with our best case scenario of the Yankees signing him, him being healthy and ready for the spotlight. Now with all that pressure comes great expectations. Johan is pitching against the Sox. Lets say Johan goes 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. Now I don’t know a Yankee fan on the globe that would not be happy with that line. My question for you is how happy? Would it be a feeling of “Oh my god, did you see that game!” Or would it be a feeling of “good, that’s why we paid him all the money and gave away all the prospects, that’s what he’s supposed to do”. Now on the flip side. Lets say Phil is pitching against the Sox, he also has a line of 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. What’s the buzz around the water cooler the next day? It would have that “Oh my god, did you see that game!” feeling to it. Amazing!

Now I know what some responses will be to that statement. “Hey Dru, dummy, The fact that Johan’s line is more of a normal event than Phil’s speaks volumes for Johan. If any lower level SP does that it has buzz.” That's true, but the thing is, it would be our buzz. No Yankee hater across the country could give anything but praise for Phil doing that. To me, that value carries a lot of weight. Now if Phil stinks the rest of the year its doesnt mean a thing. What if though...WHAT IF that is just the start of something great? WHAT IF he figured out his changeup and throws that along with his hammer curve and pinpoint fastball? WHAT IF it was the start or his greatness? The buzz around NY would be higher than any buzz Johan could produce, why? Expectations...its a killer!

I have another question to all the Santana supporters. What if Phil didn’t get hurt in Texas and pitched a no hitter? Who knows what Phil could have done if 100% healthy all year. What if he ended up getting ROY and had great numbers like he did in Sept. Would we be having this discussion? Would Phil be involved in this offer? I don’t think he would. Joba and Phil would be untouchable. Or maybe Yankee fans would be saying trade Joba. My point is that we don’t even know for certain, bad or good, what we have with Phil. Arent any of the Johan supporters at least interested to see what Phil can do over an entire season? I am. I cant wait to see Phil 15 years from now still in pinstripes going for the Yankee all time wins record Don’t you guys think there is something wrong that Ford is the all time win leader at only 236? Or that the Yanks only have two guys with 200 wins?

Ford = 236
Ruffing = 231
Gomez = 189
Guidry = 170

We have a chance to have our own 300 game winner, not just getting one at the tail end of his career, but a true 300 game winner from start to finish. A player that will be called a “True Yankee”. Will Johan ever fit under that cat? He would need to win the CY Young and WS every year of his contract to be considered a “True Yankee”. I think the opportunity to have a Yankee legend from start to finish is worth the risk of taking a step back in 08.

Im sure people will spit back fire from this post because it assumes much. Again, try to remember that I am throwing rocks at an Abrams tank; I have to swing for the fences. You guys have all the stats in your favor, Im trying to give this issue a different spin. There is more to being a baseball fan than W’s and L’s. My dream is that Phil lives up to the expectations and 15-20 years from now I can bring my son to the game and tell him about Phil Hughes, the all time Yankees Win leader, the guy we almost gave away.

It doesn't make any difference how many games Hughes, Joba, or Kennedy wins during their respective careers.

If this team wins a couple of rings with this core of young pitching over the next 5-7 years, their Yankee legacy will always be strong no matter what kind of numbers they have at the end of their respective careers.

Scott Brosius is considered a great Yankee because this team won rings with him. The guy had one great season in 1998 and the rest were mediocre.

BTW, that "True Yankee" debate has always been the dumbest argument in the history of dumb arguments.

Anyone who puts on the pinstripes is a Yankee until he puts on a different uniform.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/12/23/cccrisis123.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

The above article is from the UK Telegraph, one of the major papers in Europe. It quotes and speaks of emergency measures the Fed might have to take vis a vis our worsening financial state in the US and Europe. The title speaks of how the coming financial crisis will "make 1929 look like a walk in the park."

What makes this article scary (for intelligent people, not for idiots who will call it a "rant" because they can't face this ugly reality) is that it quotes heavy hitters in the US Central Banking system, the Fed and EU financial gurus.

Our wealth is being sucked to Asia and the UAE ... and the bedrock of our banking system has been infected by the subprime debacle. No matter how much money the Fed and EU Central Banks print up, it will only get worse.

That's terrifying.

Americans will be woken up one way or another. The financial elites quoted in the article give the crisis a matter of months.

For the Yanks it means no Santana and trimming the fat.

I agree with the "True Yankee" fallacy, but we cannot ignore it. Fans will continue to say it. Im sure half the people in here would not call A-rod a "True Yankee", I think thats a bunch of crap. He is a "True Yankee" and will be one for the next 10 years no matter what.

I think you're wrong though Viper on saying it doesnt matter how many games they win. It does matter what they would do over their career. Did anyone care that Mike Mussina won 250 games? Did anyone really care that Rocket won 300? It was nice, but everyone knew most of that was on other teams, and many of those wins were actually against the Yanks. Having a legit 300 game winner, all in pinstripes would be a huge deal in NY. If you dont think so then you're not paying attention enough.

Legacy's are linked to championships, no doubt. But what about the 1 year assassins. Does anyone think of David Justice as a Yankee? No he's a Brave, or even more so an Indian. He won a WS with the Yanks though. Late game heroics on the postseason will bring players fame and make fans love them. Scotty was so great in the postseason, even won a MVP. If we keep the kids and win a couple rings with these guys, they will have a place in Yankee history. Now if they win a couple rings and also stay healthy enough over their careers to reach 237 + wins, they could be considered one of the greatest Yankee pitchers ever! Now that is assuming A LOT, and would be a looooooong way from now. What Im getting at is the opportunity for that to happen is something for all yankee fans to get behind.

The best case scenario for Johan is that he’s on the Yankees for 8 years and lets say for arguments sake we win 4 WS.
The best case scenario for Phil and the gang is to win 4 WS over that same period of time.

Which do you prefer? Both scenarios have the Yanks winning 4 WS in 8 years? So which one? To me it’s a no brainier; the WS wins with our kids would be tremendous. Instead of all the Yankee haters saying we bought another championship with Johan. We can shut them all up by showing we can do it with our own guys.

Again, just giving the debate a different spin without repeating the same information I have been posting the past couple weeks.

So go ahead…take your shots…Im an easy target on this subject. It still wont make me change my mind, nor do I expect to change any of yours. I want to help out the fans that say “I just dont understand how we do not make the Santana deal”, understand the “keep the kids” side. I mean if Cashman is not doing the deal, he has to be thinking about these types of scenarios right?

I've been paying close enough attention in recent years and you proved my point regarding Moose.

He has almost 250 wins but no rings. Yankee fans look down on him because of it.

Which brings me back to my argument regarding the kids. If they help this team win rings, their legacy will be cemented in Yankee history no matter how many career wins they have when they retire.

Check out the past seven years, nobody cares that this team hasn't missed the postseason since their last championship in 2000. It's all irrelevant in the eyes of many fans because they haven't won rings.

It's all about the rings. A-Rod knows this first-hand.

Nobody cares, Anthony. Really. Nobody cares.

Dru,
I admit I skimmed over some of your post(s) but I know where you are coming from but I've stated before that the breaking point of a deal for Santana is Kennedy. The last I read was that Minnesota had backed off their request for Kennedy and were willing to do a deal for Melky, Hughes, Marquez and Horne. Sorry, but I'd do that deal in a minute.
I love home grown Yankees, but at 28 years old, in time and like Viper says, with a ring on his finger, it would feel like Santana was a home grown guy.
To me Hughes is just as close to being Todd Van Poppel as he is to being a great Yankee pitcher. That's the big worry, what if he bombs? What if by this time next year young Mr. Hughes has finished the season at 5-12 w/ a 5.58 ERA and he isn't fooling anyone? Well then the Yanks have passed a great chance to get a bona fide Cy Young stud lefty for him....it's a crap shoot to say the least.

Viper - the Moose point was that he didnt win 250 with the Yanks, which would have made him #1 all time, thats why nobody cared. I realize that winning rings is the only thing that really matters in the kingdom of Steinbrenner, but a ring plus milestone marks will move the young guns from heroes to legends.

To everyone....

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/

List of the top 50 prospects for the entire league. They didnt count Phil due to his innings. Pretty cool little breakdown of them all with videos.

#5 - Joba
#26 - IPK ( MiLB minor league starting pitcher of the year, he's not just some throw in player for Johan )
#49 - Austin Jackson

Jim - you're right brother, it is a big time crap shot. His value is very high right now. Look what happened to the Mets with Miledge. They could have traded him for Oswalt 3-4 years ago and for Zito 2 years ago. They waited too long and ended up with Brian Schneider...lol. It is a very risky proposition. Im a gambler though and love to press my luck. My biggest fear is that Phil lives up to the hype and ends up burning the Yanks for the next 20 years. I do understand your points though...

I'd be happy with Kennedy and Joba in the rotation - there's your homegrown affiliation road to glory. Santana - a lefty - in Yankee Stadium where he has dominated - to lead the surge. I think trading Hughes and assorted haven't-made-it-yets (to include Hughes) for an established star is the no-brainer. No Yankee World Series was won without at least 2 lefties in the rotation. Yes, there is plenty of talent in the suddenly successful Yank minor leagues and, yes, we'll see the lineup changeover to new exciting youngsters (we hope), but yet, it's all a crapshoot.

Santana has a better shot at being good over the next 5 years than Hughes does. Because He's Been Good Already And He's Young Enough (not a Kevin Brown or Randy Johnson fecal event) To Continue To Be Good.

And hell, I don't care if Hughes stays, but I'm getting a bit tired of the RSN arrogance and Santana would do more to eliminate that.

Well, this is why I come here all the time. The Hughes/Santana debate between Chris 23, Jim A, Sexrox et. al and DRU (holding the fort on the 'don't trade Hughes side all alone) is an interesting and intelligent discussion with everyone making excellent points. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be in Cashman's shoes right now, because this decision (to trade or trade not) has to be excrutiating.

I fall on DRU's side of the argument for precisely the same reasons as DRU, recognizing, as does DRU, that our antagonists are debating with the statistical upperhand.

Chris 23, you say that it may be years before Hughes reaches Santana's excellence, yet is there not a possibility that he could even win 18 - 20 games as soon as next year? If I recall correctly, there have been pitchers who have won that many in their rookie year. Had not Vida Blue, Dwight Gooden, Mark Fidrich and Jim Boutin (just to name a few) done that? (agreed, Big Bird and Boutin may be poor example because of their subsequent injuries, but I believe their are others - I'm too lazy to check!)

If Phil did win that many next year, even if he's still not as polished as Johan right now, would that lack of polish matter?

Kennedy could very well do as well himself.

Again, it's a pleasure to read the posts in this very 'civilized' debate. As Jim A says, it will continue until Santana is traded. And I do agree that it would be a blow if Santana got traded to the Sox - especially irritating if it's for a lesser set of players than the Twins have demanded from the Yanks.

In the final analysis though, as I've stated before, I prefer to keep Hughes, but I'm cool with a trade that included him (but not him AND IPK) if Cash and especially Michael are on board with the idea.)

Merry Christmas and Joba Chamberlains to all.

Somehow , someway I figure this new blogging system out. I have not been able to comment for about 2 days. The system indicates security code error or frequent blogger. Hello!, I can't post. So, I'll try something diffferent.

The market for Santana has suddenly gone sour probably because the Twins have requested one time to often for more product in return. Sometimes the trade thatbyou didn't make is the best one.

DRU: Excellent posts, very intelligent points. Very enjoyable reading. VIPER: Excellent points also.

Hughes and Santana cannot be solely responsible for winning a World Series. It's a team thing. When you build from within, you have that special bond and inner support system. I feel we should focus more on forming a cohesive team than building a lineup of individual superstars. I'm leaning more towards keeping Hughes for that reason.

What else is so special about Hughes? He's the ONLY pitcher who won a game for us in the playoffs. But more than than, he came in to relieve Roger Clemens and was successful. This is a big, big deal. The guy wasn't expected to pitch but he came in and proved he can produce under pressure in a big game setting.

Something tells me that even if Hughes doesn't become as great as Santana, he can still help us win a World Series or two. Something tells me that even if Santana is the best pitcher in the history of the sport, he still may not be able to win a World Series for us. Again because it's the team thing that matters more, I feel Hughes is more capable of helping us form a more cohesive team -- and, again, that's because teams win World Series, not individual superstars.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to all.

let me clarify one thing -- I am not for inluding IPK in the deal and gutting the farm system. Would I trade Hughes and Melky -- Yes I would and I think we have plenty of quality arms down there to fill out the deal. In fact, we have so many quality arms that they will not all be able to contribute and we will surely lose some to the Rule 5 draft eventuay

Sure Hughes could be another Gooden, but realistically do you see that evel of talen tin him? I do not I see a guy who is going to be a very good number 2 starter,

My main problem is with those who want to make this Santana deal out to be one where we are abandoning the youth movement. That is far from the case I think that getting him is part of a youth movement. We get him this year and Texiera (another young guy) next season, In 2010 you will have AJax and Tabata kknocking at the door and who knows maybe Brackman and a team whos coe players are either in their prime or about to enter their prime - not many 35-36-37 year old. Sure there will be Posada and Rivera a bit over the hil, but I dont see a major dcine in AROD and Jeter

I also have always viewed the Yankees window of WS along the timeline of Mariano because what he has meant in the postseason. This is the major reason for my disappointments over the past 5 years Mariano has 1 or 2 good years in him.

For me, Santana is a win/win It helps us go for the title now and in the future. Hughes will be missed, but Melky is replaceable and guys like Hone/Marquez/Meencon/Bettance are all crapshoots

I say we should just be cool. I think Santana has made it known to the Minn management that he want to be a Yankee or Minn would have taken the Redsox deal. If Minn did not want the deal in Dec, why would they want it in Jan? They well come back to the Yanks. That is when I say Hughes is off the table. Lets get a deal done around Kennedy or you may have my two draft picks

YF brought up a great point with Hughes' playoff appearance. Think about when you were 21 years old, may be harder for some...lol. Now rewind a couple months ago to Game 3 of the ALDS. The Yanks are down 0-2 after Wang got hammered in game one, and we lost a heart breaker in game 2 (THE SWARM). We come back to Yankee stadium and the great Roger Clemens takes the mound. 2 1/3 innings later Cleveland is up 3-0 and Roger is getting hammered. 4 hits, 3 ER, 2 BB, 1 K, 1 HR. The season is about to end tonight and we've only gotten 7 outs. Runner on 1st with one out in the 3rd and Phil Hughes comes in; with the entire season on the line and 55K fans screaming his name, to relieve one of the best SP's of all time. So how did he do?

He got 11 outs ( 3.2 in )...63 pitches, 43 for strikes, 2 hits allowed, 0 ER, 0 BB, 4 K. If Phil starts that game he goes 7 strong easy.

How many people have we seen melt in the bright lights of the big city? We have a 21 year old, 21!!!! who proved, even for a short amount of time, that he can embrace the spotlight. That he can succeed even when the cards are stacked against him. That he has no fear in throwing strikes and getting batters out on the biggest stage. That my friends is something that cannot be overlooked.

People complain that he doesnt have a great 3rd pitch. Again, I cannot dispute that fact, being only 21 he needs a little more time to get the feel for his change. What does he have already? He has pinpoint control of his 95mph fastball. His 2 seamer bites and his 4 seamer rises out of the strike zone. I remember when he was in Arlington last year and wherever Jorge put his glove, Phil hit it. When you have control and can move your fastball all over the strike zone with 95 on it, you will be hard to hit. In the minors he's even reached back for 97 on occasions. His 2nd pitch is his curve, and it too is outstanding. He throws it for a strike during any count. He was voted as having one of the best curves in the minors before last year. Here's a little secret...he didnt start throwing a curve until 3 years ago when Nardi Contreras told him to shelf his slider and go to the curve. It will only get better with time. Now on to his 3rd pitch, he worked on his changeup all of 2006, the Yanks forced him to throw it as many times as his curve. It is a pitch that will continue to improve over time. With how hard Phil works, its just a matter of time before that is a + pitch as well. Once that happens and he can throw it for a strike, WATCH OUT!

Jim A, sevrox, Chris 23, Viper.....the debate rages on! lol Good stuff guys.

Yanks61 ( AKA Dad ), YF, Larry...thanks for the support!

Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas!!!

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071110&content_id=321096&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

=========

Good read on the minor league prospects coming up. Im surprised that Dave Robertson wasn't mentioned. Aside from his walks, he was dominate in 07 =

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/David-Robertson.shtml

Well folks, the market is closed and it is offically a slooooow day at the office. Ill be around until about 7-8, so if anyone wants to shoot the sh!t about baseball let me know. Ill be here for a while.

The "True Yankee" thing is nuts.
What other qualification is there other than winning in your teams uniform?
Or maybe just spending a lot of years in a teams uniform?

John Wetteland spent 2 season with the Yankees.
He spent 4 seasons with the Rangers.
What team do people think of him with?

Mickey Rivers was a Yankee for only 3 1/2 seasons.

Was Catfish a true Yankee?
How about Chambliss, Nettles, Bucky Dent, Reggie, Pinella, Randolph, O'Neill, Girardi, Brosius, Tino and Sojo who all started with other teams?

Win and contribute to the team, and the "true Yankee" stuff goes with it

For my boys, I can't think of a player who would get a longer ovation than Dave Roberts who spent a whopping 3 months with the team

I'll try again....

Happy Holidays one and all.....

May your season be bright, and may the Yanks continue to come in second to the Sox. (sorry...I cant go THAT far with holiday spirits).

Sully I agree the "True Yankee" tag is a bunch of crap. I wish there was a better word to describe what I was getting at yesterday. Im sure if Johan comes to the team, there will be Santana jerseys flying off the shelves. Im also sure that if he wins a WS with the Yanks, he will be loved by all and people will say that he's the best Yankee lefty ever. Take a guy like Paul O'Neil, one of my all time favorite players, he wasnt homegrown, coming from Cinn. There is just something different between an established player that comes in from another team and a homegrown talent. The perfect example is A-rod and Jeter. Nobody in here can say that Jeter is a better baseball player than Arod. Alex's skill set is superior to Derek's in every way. Yet with the playoff heroics and since he was a home grown product, 99.99% of Yankee fans love Jeter over A-rod. Same thing with Andy. Andy never won a CY Young, never pitched a perfect game or no hitter. If you ask Yankee fans who they love more, Andy or Cone..90+% would say Andy even though both won WS and Cone had a perfect game. There is a deeper love for players that we see come up through the system, while also making an impact in October of course. Sure we love all the players on our WS winning teams. Knobby, Wells, Cone, Wetland, Oneil, Brosius, Catfish, Jackson...are all adored by Yankee fans. Again though, the players who are the fan favorites..Jeter, Mo, Posada, Andy, Munson, Donnie...are just in another class. This is where many fans pull out the word "True Yankee". Again Sully, I agree that it is a phrase thrown around so much that it carries no weight...but it still exists in the fans minds.

Dru,

I think for some fans part of accepting a player as a 'true Yankee' has to do with style -- not just WHAT they do but HOW they do it. Part of that may be learned in the Yankees system, part of it may be personal style. Wherever it comes from, a lot of NYY fans think of a 'true Yankee' as 'playing the game the right way'.

When Jeter was asked about this he said, "If I had kids, and one of them wanted to play baseball, I would say, watch Jorge Posada and learn from him -- he plays the game the right way."

A player can be very good but, especially if he comes from the outside, he will have a hard time being accepted as a 'true Yankee' if he is perceived as not really playing the game 'the right way'.

http://nyystadiuminsider.yuku.com/directory

Why do they say I have posted too frequently when I haven't posted for days?

Marianne is right.

There is a 'right way' to do anything on a ball field, even have a tantrum.

Examples: O'Neill knew how to have a tantrum and beat up a water cooler in the right way, always reacting to his own failures and never showing up anybody else. So his tantrums became accepted and finally even revered, while the tantrums of somebody like Kevin Brown were despised.

Marianne / Gramps - you're right, playing the game the right way has much to do with it.

Merry Xmas to all..............DRU and Chip I'll see you over at River St. ;-)...this place has been waaaaay too drug the heck out!

Oops River Ave...

LOL...I was with you Realist. Im cutting out of here. Everyone enjoy the holidays!

It all comes down to winning.
If Wells wasn't part of the 1998 team, he would have been VILLIFIED for his disastrous performance against the Angels in 2002 and being lifted after 1 inning in a must win World Series game in 2003 (not to mention his book).

If ONeill wasn't part of World Series winning teams, his tantrums would have been looked on as immature.

Remember when the Yankees were up 3-0 on the Red Sox in 2004... all the articles were about how the Yankees had the discipline and the Red Sox were just too wild a bunch to get the job done... next thing you know the Red Sox won and it was because they were loose.

Actually they won because their bullpen came up big.

Winning changes every perception.
On my team, Manny was considered a cancer... until the Sox won twice with Manny playing a big part and now he is a goofy and endearing guy

Winning makes you a true Yankee (or Red Sox)

Either way, Merry Christmas my Yankee friends
Talk to you in a few days

Grampa: I reckon O'Neil's tantrums would have been revered but not by the person who wanted a drink of water(!).

I'm relatively new here folks - but I've been reading and enjoying (except for the poster who has ingested a bit too much PCP, not HGH, but PCP) the banter. I've been a Yank fan since the days of Johnny Callison and Ron Blomberg, Roy White and Felipe Alou, and CBS (Blomberg was to have appeared at a local mall [did they have malls in the late '60's/early '70's? - can't remember] for a meet-and-greet and autograph signing, and he stood a good-sized crowd up by not showing). Used to post on the NYTimes under tstanley6 and did battle with a good many RSN members. That got shut down so I contributed (relatively speaking - I don't spend a huge amount of time online) to a couple of EZBoard concoctions, one of which is the Section39.com site - inhabited by some pretty fierce Yank Universe denizens - fierce on each other in a hilarious kind of way. The RSN faction from the NYTimes set up their headquarters on the "Escapefromelba" site where they incestualize themselves into small comas.

Regardless, I'm ex-military and currently teach secondary physics and chemistry in a public school system. Mele Kalikimaka and Haouli Makahiki Hou to you and yours!

Yanks Most Definitely (with or without Johan) in '08!

If the Sox sign Johan, the same thing will happen to them as did the Yanks when they experienced success and started signing Big Names to continue the streak - Absolutely Nothing! It's all about vibe, man.

Now Anonymous - pass me some o' dat PCP.

Wrong, Sully.

I can tell you weren't around for the years when there was not much winning and there were no WS-winning Yankees.

You may find it hard to believe but there were true Yankees then and there was 'playing the game the right way'.

Some of the guys that are revered here were as true Yankees were on those teams.

Those of us who were around remember that it isn't ALL about winning.

Actually Grampa I WAS there for the early 1990s
I went to NYU from 1990-1994 and I used to go to a lot of Yankee games during the Dave LaPoint, Andy Hawkins, Steve Sax, Danny Tartabull, Bam Bam Meulens, Tom Brookens, Bob Geren dark ages.

Of course there were Yankees who became fan favorites because they played the game right.

Certainly no living Yankee are as revered as Don Mattingly or Bobby Murcer

Dave Righetti and Mike Pagliarulo would and should get huge ovations.

I think the more recent Yankees HAVE been about titles otherwise why would the jury still be out on A-Rod despite winning 2 MVPs in 4 years.

But I hear you Grampa.
I assume you were talking about the late 80s, early 90s.

The Horace Clarke/Ron Blomberg years were before my time.
If you were talking about the Jack Chesbro./Highlanders years... then may I congratulate you on how well you take care of yourself.

One of the amazing thing about the Yankee history is they have so many titles and so many legends that people like Tony Lazzerri, Lefty Gomez and Allie Reynolds are rarely mentioned as among the greats of the team when they would be the GODS of any other team.

It's easy to get lost when your all time team includes Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Ford, Berra, Mantle, Stengel, Howard etc.

Cooked a pancake breakfast for my family this morning and opened presents... this is the first year my twins (they are 2 1/2 years old) really understand Christmas and they had as much fun bringing presents to people as opening them.

"Here mommy...." running back to tree. Hand him another one. "Here Uncle Ted."

They are playing with my in laws now. It's a good day.
Merry Christmas my on line Yankee friends.

There is peace even between Red Sox and Yankee fans today

Sully,

I don't know the answer but I think possibly the reason 'the jury is still out on Rodriguez' lies in something that Marianne said above:

"A player can be very good but, especially if he comes from the outside, he will have a hard time being accepted as a 'true Yankee' if he is perceived as not really playing the game 'the right way'."

My impression is that, right or wrong, a significant proportion of NYY fans have questions about that.

I would argue that two MVPs is a pretty good indication that A-Rod plays the game the right way.

I know the "Ha!" game created a stir with the Jays in 2007, but that hardly dismisses all of his unbelievable accomplishments throughout his career.

I didn't receive any Christmas presents . :(

Twas a sad day in the Bosstrots household this Christmas morning. My six year old son, who got tons of games, video games, WII stuff, etc, when asked to pick his favorite present....his Daisuke Matsusaka jersey that he wanted more than anything. So, to answer the question that jacka$$ Sox fan has been asking...TWO!!! Just like your seven year old, my SIX year old has seen his favorite team win TWO World Series also.

I can't believe I'm raising a Red Sox fan.

The innnings limits tht will be put on these guys is all th emore reason to get Joha eho is an absolute inningd eater. With Pettitte and Wang you have two other guys to pick of the slack from the rookies.

Santana gives them an ACE - not so importantant in the regular season but paramount in the post-season, The Yanks havent had one since - let me think - oh the last time they were in a WS.

Without an ace this team will have a fun season - fighting tooth and nails to get into the playoffs, but what happens when Lackey, Sabathia, or Beckett is staing them in the face for multiple starts in a short series Hell, look what the DBacks did to the Yanks in 2001 WS with basicaly no offense, no bullpen, and pay fro rain at the back end of the rotation

The DBacks idnt beat the Yanks in 2001 --two ACES did. In this game you need them I see Joba as a future Ace I ee Kennedy as a very good number 2 starter on a good team/number 1 starter on a bad team - a perennial 16-18 game winner and very succesfu pitcher, but future HOFer he is not - where santana is. Put your love for home grown players aside and ask yourself - would you bet your life savings on who will have the better numbers over the next 7 years Think about this and do not just about Hughes near no no and his being the savior of game 3 --- look at his whoe body of work

wonder if I can post again or do I have to wait until the new year?

what is all this nonsense about "true" Yankees. I think this comes from the old time before free agency and before guys got moved.

You put that NY on and you play had every day than you are a true yankee in my book I could care less if they came from our farm - Babe Ruth didnt come up as a Yankee

A farm system serves two equally impotant purposes: Helpp the big team and make tades. During their dynasty in the late 90's the Yanks made a ton of trades. We won and beause of that the pprospet we lost we didnt care about. Then we start osing beause the trades of the mid-90s dont work out and all of the sudden nobody wants to make any trades and keep all the farm kids. You win in this game by puting together the right mix of home grown talent, free agents, and players acquired by trade

Johan g=for Hughes and what bois down to 2 B level prospects (not IPK) and a borderline 4th outfieder is a no brainer

and for those meky suppoters - did you ever think that the reason that melkey has so many assists is that he typically dos not play balls well in center - a fact that is known by the 3d base coaches. The mark of a great outfelder is one who has NO assists. out of curiosity - how many assists did Vlad have 2 years ago when he was healthy. Point being, runners dont try and score on good defensive outfieders to often. What gets lost is his assists is that he takes terrible routes to balls and does not cover enough ground in center

Merry Christmas to All of you!
I got a pretty good gift this year as it seems my wife finally decided to do better than throwing a few shirts in a box and calling it a Christmas. A few weeks ago she was complaining that I am very hard to buy gifts for and I asked her to please go down in our basement and look around (I am an avid collector of Yankees memorabilia) and if she needed help, she could just ask one of my friends what they would get me. Well, she took my advice (and my friends advice) and got me tickets to three spring training games at Legends Field in March. My seven year old son and I will be heading for Tampa on March 14th or so and spending a long weekend watching games, which will be a blast. Maybe some of you will be there? If so, let me know and we can make plans to meet.
I also got some device that is a wireless device that gives you real time updates on all the baseball scores so that will be another distraction when I'm at work but it will be pretty cool.

"True Yankees" to me are the ones who go out and play hard and give their best effort no matter what the team's record is and no matter what the score of the game is. I root for the uniform and there have only been a few players I have disliked over the years but I probably disliked those players for other reasons than the effort they gave. A for instance would be Clemens, whom I always felt joined the Yanks to ride the train to an easy ring or two, which he got.
I may not have liked him but I rooted for him when he was wearing a Yankee uniform, just like I do all the players on pinstripes.

Well, that's it for me for tonight so I'd like to once again wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

The whole "ace" argument has always been overrated. I've been making this point for a long time.

Look no further than the Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s to prove that the Yanks don't need an "ace" to win a ring.

El Duque, Wells, Pettitte, Cone, and Clemens were all very good pitchers with the Yanks, but none of them were dominant surefire "aces" the likes of Santana, Beckett, or Pedro in his heyday.

However, stacking a rotation with four very good pitchers will create depth that few teams can match. That is why the Yankees were so deadly in the postseason. Other teams who did have a surefire "ace" didn't have much depth behind him.

I've said it a thousand times within these cyberwalls - the Yanks need to build depth in the rotation. Forget about acquiring an "ace" for now because the cost is way too high.

Viper

the flaw in your argument is that while some years the Yanks did not hve an Ace (although i would argue that Pettite had a year or two in Ace status and Clemens 20-2 year was pretty good) they had guys who pitched like Aces in the postseason - Duque, Wells, and Petttite They were post-season Aces for a long time and that played almost as big a ole as maiano did in their playoff runs

Hey Ant, Miseable nah..Just when people write or talk in the third person it kind of iritates me. BTW, didn't you get the memo? We are winning in Iraq. But keep that "we are losing mentality going' it's very becoming of the 60's hypie generation that you are from. But, I do appreciate the love you sent me.

Hope you had a very Merry Christmas.

Phil

You're wrong, Chris. There is no flaw in my argument.

Clemens was never the dominant pitcher with the Yanks that he was with BOS and TOR. Besides, the season he won the Cy Young was 2001 and they didn't bring home the championship trophy.

Pettitte has always been a very good pitcher, but an "ace" like Santana, Beckett, or Pedro?

Not hardly. Pettitte has pitched a lot of great games in the postseason, but he has had his share of stinkers too. Look it up and see for yourself.

El Duque and Wells were very good pitchers for the Yanks who took the ball and usually did a good job. But they were not surefire aces. Period.

What you are doing (and many Yankee fans do the same thing) is elevating their individual status because those Yankee teams were so good.

Take four very good pitchers and put them all in the same rotation and you've got a very tough pitching staff to beat.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Check out this one - "the Twins have scaled back their demands for Johan Santana, at least with the Yankees. He says they are now willing to substitute Jeff Marquez for Ian Kennedy. So the Yankees would have to give up Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Marquez (not sure if any others would be involved). Marquez is a 23 year-old Double A righty who probably does not fall within the Yankees' top ten prospects. He seems a more reasonable demand than Kennedy."

Is there anyone out there wgho would not make this trade form a Yankees perspective?

Bosstrots,
This is something I noted a while back, but a lot of people still think the Yankees have to give up Kennedy and that hasn't been the case since about a week after the winter meetings ended.
I think Cashman disguised his unwillingness to give up Hughes by saying that the Twins could not (and should not) get Hughes and Kennedy in any deal for Santana but when Minnesota relented and said they would take Marquez and maybe another minor leaguer of a lower tier, Cashman finally admitted he just does not want to give up Hughes. He is very emotional about that kid and he can't bring himself to let him go.

Jim A,

Not only have you been the funniest guy out here lately (and there's been some funny stuff on thie blog recently), but you've been very accurate, factual and precise in your postings. The issue is, as you've stated, many media outlets are still reporting the Twins would not make a deal without the Yankees giving up 2 of the big 3. This is the first time I've actually seen a report saying that is not the case. Now this, and we already know that Hank said "HE" is in charge, may add up to a belated Christmas present. Think about the rotation..which is better right now (and for the next 5 years)

Santana
Pettitte
Wang
Joba
Kennedy

or

Pettitte
Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy

The first rotation is actually freakin' scary, but there are many that would still not want to pull that trigger.

Bosstrots,
The top rotation on your list immediately puts the Yankees back in the hunt. To me, it bumps everyone back to their natural fit in the rotation. I think it will change a guy like Wang's mindset if he is the number two or three starter going into the playoffs and I also feel it will give the offense a boost as they might not use a white-knuckle grip on their bats while feeling that they have to put up six or more runs per game to stay in the series. They can go out and manufacture runs like they used to and wait for the other team to make a mistake and then pounce on them.

Of course the Yankees always won the battle of the bullpens so there is still some fixing to do in that area.

A stud lefty in a Yankee uniform, in the prime years of his career is all worth it to me.

I think a big part of the reason why people like myself are a little gunshy trading a young arm like Hughes for Santana is because the Yanks have been burned by a lot of big-name free agents/trades in recent years and we're getting tired of it.

Really, the only names or hired guns who have really worked out for this team since 2001 has been Mussina and A-Rod.

Santana does have a lot of mileage on that arm and he's certainly not going to duplicate the numbers he posted with the Twins in a much better offensive division like the AL East.

Viper,
I totally understand your reservations and they are quite valid. However, I can't really recall a time when the Yankees acquired a guy with the history of Santana while he was under 38! This guy is 28 and sure, he has a lot of mileage on his arm but if you ask Leo Mazzone, he says the more mileage the better.
If you compare the injury history of Santana to Hughes, I think you have to favor Santana and while there is a chance that Santana breaks down, there is just as good a chance that Hughes never lives up to his billing and/or breaks down.

I always thought the Yankees were building this team for 2009, but the idea of getting Santana probably moved their thought process up a year and I wonder if this wasn't the last year for Yankee Stadium if the Yanks would even consider it. I guess as long as George's blood flows in Hank's veins, a move like this would be considered.

Like we've all said before, the last person I'd like to be right now is Brian Cashman.

bosstrots2219 - That is a scary rotation..for 08. Coming up with a plan to win in 08 is the easy thing. Sign Johan, move Joba to the pen and bring in Mike Cameron. The tricky part is winning for the next 10 years, those moves weaken us for the following years. Andy and Moose will be gone in 09, so we will need to pick up someone or promote another kid. Joba will need to build up arm strength the following year, putting his progress in being our future #1 a year behind schedule. If we sing Cameron (which I think is a terrible idea since he strikes out 160 times a year and hits .240), it will be a short term contract. So Damon, Matsui, Abreu and Cameron will all be gone in 2 years. The fact that you have 60M invested in 2 players….Arod and Johan, weakens your flexibility to make big splashes in the FA market for the next 8 years. We have some kids coming up for the OF spots, just not that many.

I think Viper is correct by saying that it is better to have a deep 1-4 than an Ace. Santana's been on the Twins and pitched at the highest level in the league since 2002. The Twins have not made it to the WS in any of those years. Each of those years they had one of the best bullpens in the league, decent hitting and excellent fielding.

Santana's postseason stats =

5 starts...1-3...3.97ERA...34in...35hits...32K

Having Santana at his best didnt get the Twins any further than the Yanks have been. We may have better hitting, but again Minny's bullpen has been one of the best in the league for the past 4-5 years and their defense was superior to the Yanks over that same time. Getting Johan weakens our D even further by losing Melkey. He may not be the best defensive OF in the league, but he’s the best one on the Yanks.

Jim - I agree that the injury history favors Johan today. Remember one more thing though. If we sign Santana and he gets hurt, the Yanks are going to be in trouble since they gave away their youngest SP and youngest position player and now have to pay 30M to a hurt pitcher. If they dont sign Johan and Phil gets hurt, the Yanks have flexibility in signing someone else since Phil costs them peanuts.

Hope Santa was kind to you all...my wish list is still pending....KEEP HUGHES!!!! lol

FYI -

Carlos SIlva - last two years

11-15..5.94 ERA..1.542 WHIP..180 in..246 hits..70 K
13-14..4.19 ERA..1.312 WHIP..202 in..229 hits..89 K

Just signed at 4 years 48 Million

Gil Meche - two years before his contract
10-8..5.09 ERA..1.570 WHIP..143 in..153 hits..83 K
11-8..4.48 ERA..1.430 WHIP..186 in..183 hits..156 K

07 signed at 5 years 55 Million

Ted Lilly - two years before his contract
10-11..5.56 ERA..1.528 WHIP..126 in..135 hits..96 K
15-13..4.31 ERA..1.431 WHIP..181 in..179 hits..160 K

07 signed at 4 years 40 Million

==================

So at the very least if we want to sign a #4/#5 starter, we will need a MINIMUM of 10M. The fact that Silva got 4/48 shows that the market increased from 10per to 12per for an average SP. If we trade away our young talent for a 30M dollar Johan, then add another #4/#5 SP in the 12M per year range...well, you see what Im getting at here. A cheaper rotation gives the Yanks the option to sign Mark Teixeria when he becomes a FA after next year, along with anyone else we want...Joe Nathan, CC Sabathia...or even Johan himself next year.

The 'flexibility factor' has to play some type of role here.

DRU, at the end of the day, I also think that the Sox are bluffing. I really think they're just hanging in the there to keep the price high for the Yanks. I don't see them willing to go the distance with this trade - either in personnel or in salary.

Besides, I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis vis-a-vis the potential injury picture and the future beyond 2008. I think if the Yanks can just restrain from pulling the trigger that the Twins will either hold on to Santana or be forced to come down in their demands to the Yanks.

Great reading all your posts. Night all!

P.S. Kat: This posting system is still for the birds! Sometimes it works on the first try, sometimes it takes multiple tries. I’ve just tried about a half dozen times now. Here’s hoping!

Very true...Maybe Im a little biased, but based on his minor league stats and multiple minor league rankings, I dont think Lester is that good to head any package. I think the Yanks can put a package together headed by Ian, that doesn’t include Phil, that exceeds the Lester package.

Kennedy is just flat out better than Lester

Ian has a better ERA, Win/Loss record, H9, HR/9, BB/9, K/9, WHIP...every minor league stat you put the two head to head in Ian come out on top. Then factor in their brief major league stats and you find more of the same.

Lester – 23 years old…32-31…3.33 ERA…7.99 H/9…0.56 HR/9…3.78 BB/9…8.31 K/9…1.31 WHIP
Ian – 22 years old…12-3…1.87 ERA…5.62 H/9…0.36 HR/9…3.14 BB/9…9.97 K/9…0.97 WHIP

Melky is better than Coco, cheaper and younger

Last two years

Coco
06 - 26 years old..413 AB...264 Avg..702 OPS..67 K's
07 - 27 years old..526 AB...268 Avg..712 OPS..84 K's

Melky
06 - 21 years old..460 AB..280 Avg..751 OPS..59 K's
07 - 22 years old..545 AB..273 Avg..718 OPS..68 K's

Justin Masterson ( BOS )
minor league totals
22 years old..15-9..3.74 ERA..185in..148K's
just came off a season in AA that he went 4-3..4.34 ERA

Jeff Marquez ( NY )
22 years old...35-32...3.40 ERA..485in..345K's
just came off a season in AA that he went 15-9..3.65 ERA

Jed Lowrie ( BOS )
23 year old SS...1072 AB...291 Avg...834 OPS..20 HR..14 SB

Alberto Gonzalez ( NY )
24 years old SS...1613 AB...277 Avg...715 OPS..10 HR..38 SB Gold Glove caliber defense, better than Lowrie

Other than Lowrie, the rest of the Yanks prospects are better than the Sox prospects. To make up for the difference the Yanks could also throw in a 5th player.

Marcos Vechionacci - 21 year old 3B - 16 HR - 40 SB

Or to seal the deal =

Daniel McCutchen
24 years old...16-4...172 IP...2.41 ERA...1.01 WHIP...133 K's

So the Red Sox best offer.

Lester
Coco
Masterson
Lowrie

is not as good as a similar package the Yanks can put together

Ian
Melk
Marquez
Gonzalez and/or McCutchen and/or Vechionacci.

Thats not just opinion Red Sox fans, those are facts. We should not include Phil in any package.

Bucholtz = Hughes

Hughes 21...25-8...2.03 ERA...275in...311K's..66BB..0.86 WHIP
Clay 22...19-10...2.46 ERA...285in...356K's..77BB..1.00 WHIP

If the Twins are not demanding Bucholz from the Sox, why are they demanding Phil from the Yanks? We have secondary packages that exceed the Sox offers without including Joba, Phil or Cano.

There is some BS going on here and Im glad the Yanks pulled out. If the Twins want to deal Johan..

Ian
Melk
Marquez
McCutchen

Is the highest the Yanks should go. That package would only be beat by the Sox including Lester, Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie...which I dont see them doing.

I hear where you are coming from Viper...
I also think however that there is no magical formula.

You have teams that have won the big kahuna with one ace leading the way (Hershiser and the 1988 Dodgers, Carpenter and the 2006 Cardinals, Beckett and the 2007 Red Sox)

You have teams with two terrific starters and a lousy staff win it all (1987 Twins, 2001 D'Backs)

You have teams with mediocre starters and a solid bullpen win it all (2002 Angels)

You have team with more than one ace and some depth (1995 Braves, 2004 Red Sox)

But Viper is right that most of the time you have teams win it all with a lot of depth and unlikely names stepping up.

Certainly the Torre Yankees had tons of depth and they had the hammer at the end.

The first Marlins title had a lot of veterans (and Eric Gregg's strikezone) and the second Marlins team had lots of young dudes and the White Sox were closest to the Torre team of having tons of talent with no one stud.

The best surefire way to build is what Viper said and make sure there are 4 solid starters, a good closer and 3 good relievers.

The problem is finding the Mendozas, Stantons, Lloyds and Nelsons of the world to give you that depth. The Yankees haven't been able to replace those 4 despite the Gordons, Farnsworths, Quantrills, Hammonds and Heredias of the world.

Get that depth... and the rings will follow. Just which will be Okajima and which will be Gagne?

Sully,

There’s one major distinction between old Yankee teams and the other championship teams you mentioned.

The Yanks were able to sustain that high level of dominance over a number of years. They went to the World Series in six out of eight years from 1996 to 2003 - and won four of them. That happened primarily because of their outstanding depth in the rotation and Mo to close it out.

If the Yanks’ Game 1 starter didn’t pitch well, they had three pitchers following him who were more than capable of picking up the slack. While other teams had the advantage in Game 1 because of their surefire “ace”, the Yanks had the pitching advantage in Games 2, 3, and 4 because of their tremendous depth.

Most of the championship teams you mentioned never sustained that level of play the following years. The Marlins, ChiSox, D-Backs, Angels, Cardinals, etc are all perfect examples of it.

Yes, the Red Sox won in 2004 - but they were swept by the ChiSox in the 2005 ALDS and missed the postseason entirely in 2006. We'll have to see how the Red Sox do next season and beyond.

Of course, I would really like to see the Yanks win a championship in 2008, but I’m concerned about building a stable of horses in that rotation for the next 5 years. I feel that is more important than putting all of your eggs in one basket.

I also think there is a misconception about the Yankee setup guys of old. Nelson, Stanton, and Mendoza were all solid relief pitchers, but they weren’t dominant or nearly as good as many Yankee fans tend to remember them. Again, Yankee fans have elevated their individual status because they won rings with that group.

The truth of the matter is that the depth of the starting rotation was the primary reason why these guys were effective. They weren’t overused because the starters were going 6-7 IP strong almost every night. Obviously, that makes a huge difference on the wear and tear of the pen over the course of a season.

Let’s not forget that it was not uncommon even back then for Mo to come in and pitch two innings for the save. In fact, he did it quite often.

He bailed out Stanton and Nelson numerous times over the years and it rarely affected their ERAs because Mo was so dominant and always got the job done.

Oh good Lord Phil,

Your heart is in the right place ... but sorry my friend, if you were to read let's say Antiwar.com you'd find a zillion articles by established journalists (Justin Raimondo for one) on how we're "winning' in Iraq only because we are paying off the militias NOT to shoot at us. That won't last.

And going to the jungle warfare school, helping the Hmong in Laos, that's like a hippie? Are you on crack?

I want to win in Iraq but victory is not possible with no plan having been in place from day one. (Looting of the museum, legalizing alcohol and prostitituion, not enough boots on the ground, unable to control the Green Zone let alone Baghdad or a bombed out, second rate, Third World basket case.) Why was this done? Maybe to bankrupt our nation and fight these wars on credit extended by a certain Asian nation who simply are biding their time while we grow weaker and weaker.

Phil, Crassus was ambushed near what is today's Anbar Province, the worst defeat Rome ever suffered while deployed on foreign soil. And no one since Alexander the Great has won in Afghanistan ... you get the picture, right? True patriotism demands honesty -- ugly as that might be for all of us to accept.

We've lost. Period. Yet there are other enemies: North Korea, ANC, Burma, Russia, the Peking Duck People, Cuba, Venezuela and others to be confronted.

Anyway ... enough of that ... it's depressing.

San Diego picked up Mark Prior ... that was something I did not see coming.

This is NOT good for the Yanks because it will make San Diego less able or likely to take Mussina off our hands when the heavy hitters in the AL EAST start taking batting practice against his 83 MPH fastball (and Igawa. for that matter).

Ant Colony, You make some salient points. I do have to agree to disagree. I actually believe that the "troop surge" has worked. Maybe I am a little sensitive because none of this being looked upon as a success. Again thanks for your service. I am going to keep this to Yankee stuff. When do you think Santana is going to be traded? I think it will be when the demand for him, will be at its highest, which is during the trade deadline. What do you think?

Peace

Phil

Dru,
What's all this talk about flexibility in the payroll? Unless the league has implemented a salary cap that I wasn't aware of, the Yankees don't need to watch their spending at all, they will spend whatever it takes or whatever they want to spend to win.
If the Yanks got Santana and Tiexiera became a FA the next season, they'd have no problem going after him.

The news that the Twins have lowered their demand does not surprise me. Since the Red Sox offer has been on the table so long it seems as if the Twins are not enamored with the deal and are using it as a back-up plan. I think its clar that they want Hughes. He is the best player available from either team and has by far the highest upside This comes sown to Cashman deciding whether or not he want to give up Phil

To Cashman Hughes is more than just a top prospect. He was the first major pitching prospect in this renaisance of the minor leagues. He is a symbol of the Yankees new philosphy.

The way I see it, Johan is there for the taking in a deal that is fair for both teams. The question is: do the Yankees pull the tigger. If not the Twins will go to plan B which is to accept the Rd Sox deal.

On another note, I am really surprised to hear absolutly no trade rumors about Mussina. Why are they not shopping this guy - he still has value in the NL and they may be able to get some quality in return. In the AL East he is nothing but a batting practice pitcher.

and as for Aces - I guess 20-2 for Clemens and a runner up in the cy young fo pettite wasnt enough to qualify them as Aces those years

Santana will make 20 million a yea

What is Giambi making?

When you talk about flexibility you need to take into account the contacts coming off the books -- nearly 60 million after next year by my count -- maybe more if they can make some trades

Giambi - backloaded contract
Moose
Pettite
Pavano

That is a lot of money right there and Wang and Cano while getting raises will still not be eligible for free agency. Even with Johan the Yanks are set up to sig Texiera, or even Sabathia or Ben Sheets.

Imagine a rotation of

Johan
Sabathia or Sheets
Wang
Joba
Kennedy

Pipe dreams I knowbut I would rather take Johan this year and Sabathia or sheets in free agency than a 1st baseman. Just imagine that rotation - it would never happen, but boy oh boy would it be cool

I also see the lose of the Santana sweepstakes signing Sabathia this offseason - the Indians have a history of letting guys go.

and as for Aces - I guess 20-2 for Clemens and a runner up in the cy young fo pettite wasnt enough to qualify them as Aces those years

---------------------------------------

Your argument is severely flawed in several ways.

Clemens was actually 20-3 and won the Cy Young in 2001. Last I checked, the Yanks didn't bring home the WS trophy that season. That flushes your "ace" argument down the crapper because they didn't win it all.

Look it up. Clemens was terrible in 1999 when he won his first ring. He was better in 2000, but not dominant by any stretch when he won his second ring.

Let me throw a monkey wrench into your other argument.

Yes, it's true - Andy Pettitte did in fact finish second in the Cy Young vote in 1996.

However, Chien-Ming Wang finished second in the Cy Young vote in 2006.

If you're gonna make the argument that Pettitte was an "ace" because of how many votes he got for the CYA - then you also have to give Wang his due for the same reason.

Instead, you are one of the biggest advocates for acquiring Santana because the Yanks don't have an "ace" in your eye.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

BTW, Moose is going nowhere.

The reason why the Yanks aren't progressively making offers for Mussna is because they are going to need him next season more than you think.

This rotation is going to have three kids all on innings-caps, so Moose is going to be a guy who provides some depth.

Besides, Moose has a full NTC and can veto any deal he wants. He probably has no interest in going to the NL. Like it or not, he's earned that right as a 10-5 guy.

not dominant in 2000? he pitched two of the most impressive post season games in baseball history including a near no hitter against the great mariners - a game whcic many regard as one of the most dominant post season performances in history

and your right the 20-3 season came when they were 1 out away from beating the DBacks in 2001 - a horible season I know

20 -7 for david cone in 1998

19-9 for \Pettite in 2000 - runne up to the cy young i believe

21-8 in 2003for Pettite in 2003 oh yeah but they only got to the wold series

To say the Yankees didnt have an Ace during their run is wong. It may not have been the same guy each year which suppots your depth argument, but you are mistaken about their lack of aces

this doesnt even include the post-season ecords of Wells and El Duque who in their primes were two of the most dominant post season pitchers in baseball history --post season aces if you will

Moose will do a great job eating those innings with a 5 plus ERA

I am sure that Moose would waive the no trade clause as moving to N would give him an outside shot of landing with a team soing wella and possibly cashing in on one more 3 or 4 year deal and possibly winning 300 games. Sure, he will eat up innings and I understand the need for that, but at what cost to the team - he has become a right haanded junkballer

If they acquire Santana - they must trade him and the fact that they havent been maketting him shows me they are not going after santana - cashman loves hughes too much I would normally say that, if they were serious about Santana than they would not tade mussina until theyhad him in hand as to not give their hand away, but Hank cant keep his mouth shut

Its just me, but if this team is not getting Johan, I do not see them sniffing the postseason - especially if he winds up in Boston. I would rather give another kid a shot in the rotation if need be as a back-up rather than the boken down old man that is Mike Mussina

Wrong Chris. Again.

There's a difference in being the "ace" of the Yanks and a dominant "ace" like Santana, Beckett, Halladay, or Pedro in his heyday.

By your logic, Wang is the "ace" of the Yankees because he was 19-6 in 2006 (while finishing 2nd in the CYA) and 19-7 in 2007.

Which begs the question....

Why were those other guys "aces" because of their W-L records - but Wang isn't - even though he's won more games than any pitcher the last two seasons?

You're contradicting your own argument.

Also, if you are going to value a pitcher on postseason success, then Johan Santana is not your man because he has never pitched the Twins past the First Round of the playoffs.

As I've said a thousand times, you are elevating the old Yankees' greatness on an individual level because of how great those teams were. The rotation was dominant because they had more depth than any team in the league. Other teams couldn't match that.

Four very good pitchers in your rotation will beat a rotation of one dominant shutdown ace followed by three average pitchers almost every time.

This isn't rocket science. You are just failing to comprehend the simplicity in it.

Ah but Viper there is the rub...
Those 4 very good pitchers

I remember when Vasquez and Brown came to the Yankees in 2004 and hearing Steiner, Sterling and company say "Vasquez will fit right in and be an ace for years to come and let's face it... Kevin Brown is a warrior!"

Then in 2005 when the Yankees picked up Randy Johnson the rest of the league screamed "It's not fair! He's locked up a Cy Young!" Throw in the reliable Carl Pavano too.

And I remember Matt Clement coming in and pitching well for the first half of 2005 thinking "We've got ourselves a stud!"

Ooof.

It's a strange combination that is impossible to predict... especially in the post season where recent Cy young winners like Big Unit and Bartolo Colon flopped and head cases like Jeff Weaver (with St. Louis) and Derek Lowe shone.

Also let's not forget the one thing that was consistent in all of those Yankee teams... and the one person who came through time and time again... and was ALWAYS better than the other teams counter part... and the few times he DIDN'T come through was down right shocking:

Mariano the great

Even in 1996, when Wetteland was the closer, Mariano made the 8th and sometimes 7th a foregone conclusion.

And by the time 1998 rolled along he was the hammer of God.
And think about those Yankee teams... without the Pedro like #1 starter... without a 'roided up slugger mashing 50 homers (hell, Bernie topped out the championship teams with 30 homers).

And yet the won... and how many times did they beat the other team late in the game?

Off the top of my head, 5 times in 1996
Off the top of my head, the Brosius homer off of Hoffman and the Padre melt down in the 7th inning of game 1 in 1998.
Off the top of my head 3 different games against the Red Sox and 2 games against the Braves in 1999.
Off the top of my head twice in the World Series against the Mets in 2000.
Off the top of my head once against Oakland, once against Seattle and twice against Arizona in 2001.
And there was that Aaron Boone fellow.

Not all losses are created equally. A team that blows a game that they had in their grasp in the post season hurts worse than Sonny Coreleone in the toll booth.

Trust me... the 1986 World Series and the 2003 ALCS were like swallowing an atom bomb.

You can't TELL me that doesn't demoralize the other team... and didn't pump up the Yankees each time they snatched victory and rubbed it in the other teams face.

I've seen my team do monumental belly flops and I've also seen them win 5 series when they were 1 loss away from elimination.

The key for the Yankees in those series is they got to the other teams pen (Armando Benitez for both the Orioles and the Mets!) and the other team couldn't get to Mariano.

He's the only Torre era Yankee to win 2 post season MVP awards (99 World Series and 03 ALCS) and the two most startling Yankee losses maybe of all time were when Rivera failed in 2001 and 2004. What made them startling? Rivera was invincible.

So having Rivera make that 9th inning irrelevant is a big factor. It allowed the Nelsons, Stantons, Lloyds, Mendozas etc relax into their roles and made the conclusion of the game a foregone one.

Sully,

It's about building a core of stability for the long haul.

Case in point...

From 1996 to 2003, just ten Yankee pitchers started their 82 postseason games. That's astounding.

However, since 2004, a whopping eleven Yankee pitchers have started their last 23 postseason games. That's not so good.

Instability in that rotation is the primary reason why this team hasn't been back to the WS since 2003. They seem to have to reshuffle the deck every year and they've gotten burned by it.

I never liked the Brown deal because he was notorious for being injury-prone prior to his time in pinstripes. Any moron could have seen that coming.

I have to confess that I thought Vasquez was going to be a solid pitcher for this team but he just couldn't handle NY. In all honesty, Vasquez had one good season after he left MON and that was in Chicago in 2005.

It is indeed unpredictable. But sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.

Despite what Chris says, this team will make the postseason in 2008 with or without Santana.

This team won 94 games in 2007 with the likes of Igawa, Henn, Clippard, Rasner, Karstens, Wright, and DeSalvo making 36 starts for this team (or 22% of their 162 games).

Nobody can argue that these chumps are nothing more than mediocre talents, but the Yanks found a way to win with them anyways.

Getting significantly more starts out of their top young guns like Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, and Horne at some point makes this rotation better than last season by default.

We'll see...

And I think Viper and I are agreeing on like 90% regarding putting a staff together.

As I said... finding those players... there's the tough part

No question, Sully.

Mariano is the greatest closer of all time - regular season and postseason.

His hand in those championships can't ever be underestimated.

That said, he hasn't been able to work his magic in the last 3 postseasons because the Yankee starting pitching has failed miserably in giving the team a chance to hand the ball to him late in the game.

He converted both save opportunities against LAA in 2005.

He pitched a scoreless 9th in his one appearance against DET in 2006.

He pitched three scoreless innings in two appearances against the Tribe in 2007.

my argument that the Yanks do not make the postseason has noting to do with the Yanks being "chumps"

it has to do with every othe team getting better this year, particuarly the Tigers (Cabrera) and the Indians young talent continuing to blossom.

The Yankees are expecting an aging everyday line-up to continue to perform to last years standards despite another year of wear and tear to go along with three babies in the rotations.

Do I think this team as constituted will be great in 2010 when the pitchers mature -- absolutly, but with Santana they are great next year through 2010 and beyond.

My argument with regard to Aces is that every post season the Yankees had those go to guys that you knew were going to pitch big for them - that is how I look at an Ace. This team lacks that type of pitcher other than Petitte, but I wonder about his health.

Truth be told they won thei titles because of MO. He was the single most impotant player in baseball during those years in my opinion and is one of the most dominant post-season performers of all time. Mo is actually a big reason why I want Santana. I view thier window for another ring in terms of Mo;s dominance although he has lost something.

When he is gone, winning a WS is going to be a heck of a lot tougher with a human closing games

I'm still baffled as to how anyone could think having Santana in the rotation for the next 5-7 years would be worse for the Yankees than having Hughes in it. If the Yankees make that deal, they will certainly sign Santana to a long term deal, as numerous peeps on this blog have already pointed out, and a rotation featuring Santana, Pettitte, Wang, Joba, Mussina and Kennedy would not only have the stud LEFTY needed, but would provide plenty of depth for the next few years. Assume Pettitte and Mussina are gone next year, then Santana, Wang, Chamberlain, Kennedy and (fill in the blank free agent or someone from within) still provides an awesme front of the rotation and great depth.

The Melky part of the deal is a no brainer. He is expendable - a mediocre centerfielder with a good arm and limited offensive capabilities (low average, can't bunt, doesn't steal, etc). There is someone out there who insists that he is a .300 hitter. That's just not true...in fact, he regressed a little this year as far as average. This type of outfielder is a dime a dozen.

By the way, Viper, his hand in blowing several championships can't be underestimated either. But much like Jeter, no matter what he does - good or bad - he gets a pass.

boss - Mornin buddy, lets talk Melk since you seem to be a hater.
I agree he did have a down year last season hitting .273. For a 22 year old that didnt have a place in the lineup in April, then was handed the starting CF job, I cant complain about a slight dip in Avg ( .280 @ 21 - .273 @ 22 ). Try and remember his age though as it is a huge factor. Most people at AA are 21-22, he's doing this in the majors. When he was called up at age 20 ( usually A ball age ), everyone remembers he was having a hard time. Then at the start of the 06 season they started him at AAA, how did he respond?

31 Game - 122 AB's - 19 Runs - 47 Hits - 6 2B - 2 3B - 7 HR
24 RBI - 3 SB - 10 BB - 9 K - .385 Avg - .430 OBP - .996 OPS

Those are TREMENDOUS #'s for a 21 year old at AAA. All together in 1432 minor league AB's he hit .294. He IS a future .300 hitter any way you look at it. He is also showing more and more power each year which is typical of a young hitter. He's had 50 doubles, 10 triples and 15 HR's over the past two MLB seasons. Those numbers will continue to rise ending off in the 20-25 range per season. Melk also stole 25 bases the past two MLB seasons ( 12-13 ). Those numbers will also go up over the next couple years topping off in the 20-25 range once he moves up in the order. On top of that the young man has shown an excellent eye at the plate.

56BB / 59K in 06...43BB / 68 K in 07, with a .340 OBP in his 1st two MLB seaons.

The low K rate indicates a future .300 hitter as well since he puts the ball in play so much. Those OBP numbers will also increase over time as he gets more comfortable. So what do we have with Melk?

1. He has a cannon arm, not just average, how many times did you see him nail a runner at home on the fly? answer = multiple times, he's got a rocket arm and led the league in assists. Sure great OF's have less assists over time, but teams will learn not to run on him. If we trade away Melk, who is going to fill that role? Nobody on the current roster. So now we need to spend an additional 12-15M to bring in some garbage AKA Cameron.

2. He is only 22 and has shown great patience at the plate, that will develope more working his OBP into the .380 range which is EXCELLENT! Here are some other star players and their OBP.

Berkman - .386
Beltran - .353
Soriano - .337
Carlos Lee - .354
Chris Young - .295
Konerko - .351
Morneau - .343
Uggla - .326
Gonzalez (SD) - .347
Rollins - .344

So you can see what Im gettin at here, his OBP is going to rise and will be among the league leaders in that cat. A perfect fit for the Yanks who love those grind em out AB's.

3. He will continue to improve his power numbers and base stealing ability to get into the 20-20 range, with a celiing at 25-25
Lets look at other 20-20 guys.

Granderson - 23-26
Cameron - 21-18 ( .242 avg + .328 OBP )
Nick Markakis - 23-18
Carlos Guillen 21-13
Garry Matthews 18-18 ( .252 avg + .323 OBP )

Again you can see what Im getting at here. All those players make tons of money, or soon will. Now imagine Matthews SB + HR totals with a .290 Avg and .375 OBP. Old Melk would be considered a top 20 OF. Getting to 18-18 is only a couple years away, maybe by 25. Imagine that for a minute, when he's 25, if he can put up those type of numbers. we would have ourselves a stud OF locked up in the Bronx for at least another decade.

Now I dont know about you, but Melk's outlook doesnt look like he's going to be...

"a mediocre centerfielder with a good arm and limited offensive capabilities (low average, can't bunt, doesn't steal, etc)"

He much more than that my friend, the writing is on the wall, just look at the stats.......

DRU,

That's a lucid, well thought out reply to my ramblings. Someone here at work also told me I seem to be down on the Melk man. I have to say, I probably appear to be more down on Melky than I actually am. I like the guy, I think he brings much needed energy and enthusiasm, and certainly believe that we don't need an all star at every position to win. In fact, I believe trying to get an all star at every position has hurt us in the recent past.

That said, your info and data to back it up almost made me change my mind. I don't mean to imply I want to get rid of Melky...but I believe getting Santana will be the best thing that could happen, and to do that, we will most likely need to get rid of Melky. My point, and some agree with me whilst others think I've been dipping in to the leftover egg nog, is that since we don't need an all star at every position, we could most likely find someone as effective for centerfield. He!!, we have Damon, who IS a centerfielder by nature, who could certainly play the position when healthy.

By the way, DRU, I said he has a "good" arm, not "average", but I'll buy your thought that it is a cannon. He still needs to control it a little, but that'll come with age and experience.

I guess I could go either way. If we're looking to win right away - next year, Santana helps us with that, no doubt, hands down. If we're building for 2010 and beyond, and assuming Hughes and Chamberlain develop into a 1 and 2, I like what we have now.

By the way, DRU, the other piece to your argument is simply the difference between a .270 hitter and .300 hitter...which is merely 3 hits every hundred at bats. Over a 600 AB season, that's a paltry 18 hits...162 vice 180 hits in a season. If half of those hits come during a blowout in any sense, whether we are up 14-3 or down 14-3, does it matter too much? So really, is there that much of a difference between a .270-.280 hitter and a .300 hitter. Only in the eyes of those that vote for Cooperstown members!

Boss, I understand everyone's desire to get Johan. I agree that he is THE best SP in the entire league. I just don’t know, it doesn’t feel right. Maybe Johan is really Johansson, Scarlett. A proven woman who has it all; the beauty, the money, the personality. I’ve been hurt before though in past relationships. I remember dating Naomi Campbell ( Randy Johnson ); she had it all, but ended up cheating on me and beating me up. Then there was my relationship with Kathy Ireland ( Jason Giambi ); she left me when I needed her most, now I still have to pay her 20M dollars in alimony each year. Lets also not forget about my fling with Denise Richards ( Kevin Brown ); she trashed my place and almost burnt down my house during my brother's wedding ( World Series ). I’ve been hurt so many times, you can see why I’m a little jaded towards this next best thing. I mean we are already in a great relationship with Keira Knightley ( Phil Hughes ), she treats us great and loves us unconditionally. Who knows, she may end up being the Katharine Hepburn ( Roger Clemens ) of the 21st Century.

; )

DRU,

Melky "has shown great patience at the plate"

?????

LOL

This is a strange weekend for me as a Boston fan

baseball is my main sport... and I am a rabid Red Sox fan obviously
I love the NBA and I stayed loyal to the Celtics through the ML Carr/Rick Pitino years and hopefully it will pay off this year

I follow San Jose in hockey because I lived in the Bay Area when they were formed, so I've rooted for them since their first game

But I was never a big football fan growing up and I was a fair weather Patriots fan... but when I moved to NYC and lived with my cousin, he turned me into a Giants fan.

And I've remained a Giants fan even when the Pats became a dynasty.
So this weekend all of my Boston friend fans are e mailing me thinking I am taking part in the 15-0 season.... and I could and nobody would know I was a fair weather fan.

But I hate bandwagon fans... so I have found myself, Sully, Mr Red Sox fan, rooting FOR a New York team AGAINST a Boston team in a dramatic game.

Feels odd. But if I jumped back on the Pats bandwagon, I'd be no different than a Red Sox fan who never watched a game before 2004.

So... GO BLUE!
BEAT THOSE PATRIOTS!!!!

DRU, who is the Liv Tyler of the Yankee pitchers?

(I have a thing for Liv)

Gramps =

56BB / 59K in 06 for a .360 OBP
43BB / 68 K in 07 for a 327 OBP

There was a big regression last year, but two years ago he had an excellent OBP of .360. His total in 2 MLB seasons is .340. His minor league total was close to .350. Those are pretty decent OBP numbers for a kid that is one year into legally drinking. Remember as well that when you face the Yankees lineup, the last thing you want to do it walk Melky. Every pitcher in the leage was not going to allow a free base for Melk when the top of the order was coming up. I guarantee that in a couple years Melk will be in the .380 range, thats top 25 in the league in OBP. His K rate is also excellent, 1 per every 9 AB's. For comparison sake let look at two of the best leadoff hitters in the league =

Figgins = 51BB / 81K
Hanley Ramirez = 52 BB / 95 K

Henley and Figgins are both leadoff hitter with more AB's. Melk had a better BB/9 and K/9 rate than both. And that was in Melks down year while those two had All Star seasons. Compare their stats to Melk's 06 and he looks even better. Dont count out the Melk bone yet folks, big things are ahead.

Sully, I think Andy would be Liv. Its the lips..lol

Latest Santana rumors =

La Velle E. Neal III checks in over the Christmas break to offer what he has heard regarding Johan Santana. First, the Twins checked in with the Red Sox, Yanks and Mets just before Christmas. Apparently, the Mets do have a package sans Jose Reyes or David Wright that can get a deal done.

Second, "dormant" is the word he was told aptly described the talks with the Red Sox, and, finally, Kei Igawa's name has resurfaced in links to Yankees' offers. Mr. Neal comments that Kei may be a 4th piece. If that third piece is Jeff Marquez or SS Alberto Gonzalez, I can see Igawa being that kicker that pushes the Twins into consumating the deal!

Charlie Waters of the Pioneer Press reports the Twins are set to have Johan on the mound for the team's opening game agains the Angels. Two 1st round picks in June 2009 is not a good consolation prize for failing to pull the trigger in December 2007.

FROM Peter Abraham, the Yankees beat writer on Santana =

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2007/12/27/yanks-should-say-no-thanks-for-santana/

Yanks should say no thanks for Santana
December 27

By the time 2008 rolls around, the Johan Santana Rumor Mill will get cranked up again.

The latest bit of speculation is that Minnesota would accept a package of Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Jeff Marquez for their lefty ace. I’m sure that sounds acceptable to many fans.

But, for a second, look at the bigger picture. Are the Yankees developing their kids to play them or trade them?

Santana is terrific, no doubt about it. But adding him to the roster would cost $20 million a season plus a 40-percent luxury tax penalty. The Yankees will be paying for what Santana did in Minnesota.

Santana could be great again. He was 15-13, 3.33 last season despite a lack of run support and only will be 29 in March. But he has thrown 932 innings over the last four seasons, counting the postseason. Sure, he could be terrific. Or he could be the next Mike Hampton. Nobody knows. Name me all the long-term contracts for pitchers that worked out well over the years.

Hughes and Cabrera are symbols of what Brian Cashman is trying to do with the Yankees. The organization did a great job of scouting, drafting and then developing Hughes into the best pitching prospect in the minors.

Cabrera is a guy they rushed to the majors in 2005, screwed up and then built back up into a player good enough to take a job away from Johnny Damon. He would have been cut or traded five years ago.

Trade these guys now and the message is pretty clear: The Yankees are only paying lip service to development. This isn’t trading a few B-level prospects for Bobby Abreu in July. This would be an old-school Yankees move.

It’s their money, not ours. But I sit there at the Stadium and listen. People cheer loudest for the players who came up in pinstripes. People respect A-Rod but they love Jeter. They wanted Clemens do well. They adored Andy Pettitte.

Cashman has somehow made it cool for Yankee fans to care about Jose Tabata even though 99 percent of them have no idea what he looks like.

Spend the money on draft picks, Dominican shortstops and Taiwanese pitchers. Go find kids in Korea, Australia, Venezuela and everywhere else. Hire more scouts and go see every junior college prospect in Texas. Go find the next Santana, don’t trade for the old one.

Let Santana go to the Mets or the Angels or better yet, let him stay in Minnesota where he belongs. If the Red Sox were serious, they would have done the deal weeks ago. They’re pushing chips around the table hoping somebody in Tampa will go all in so they can fold.

We’ve spent two years wondering how good Phil Hughes could be. Let’s find out.

Dru,
I wouldn't compare Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown to the younger, good looking stars you did. Randy was more like Jamie Lee Curtis, she was great once (Trading Places) but have you seen her lately? THAT'S the version the Yanks traded for, not the Trading Places version.

Kevin Brown could be compared with Kirstie Alley, looked good for a bit, but nothing special, a couple of good seasons on 'Cheers' but never had the team chemistry that Shelley Long did and the 80's were her heyday. We got the 'Fat Actress' Kirstie, bloated on steroids and not at all funny, actually sort of tragic.

Johan Santana is different. He's 28, so he's more like Liv Tyler than all of 'em, She's been around long enough for us to remember the great stuff she's done (anything that involves her running is good or sitting in a bathtub too) and have you seen her lately? She's still smokin' hot and has plenty of good years left.

Hahahaha!

The Twins point of view from twincities.com

http://www.twincities.com/ci_7816514?source=most_viewed&nclick_check=1

SHOOTER CHARLEY WALTERS

The Twins have settled into a holiday holding pattern in trade discussions for pitcher Johan Santana. Though a trade still seems probable, the Twins won't say so.

"Right now, Johan Santana is our opening night starter against the Los Angeles Angels and Torii Hunter, and I like our chances (of winning)," Twins President Dave St. Peter said Wednesday. "That's not a bad thing for (manager) Mr. (Ron) Gardenhire to be able to pencil in Johan Santana as the starter on opening night."

The Twins have offered Santana, who already is guaranteed $13 million for 2008, an additional four years for a guaranteed $80 million. That contract would make Santana the highest-paid pitcher in baseball with a multi year deal.

Although the Twins are in stalemated trade talks with the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees, they say they are serious - and just not posturing - about trying to keep Santana, 28, in Minnesota.

"That remains our goal, our first choice, and I'm not going to veer from that," St. Peter said. "We are comfortable with that scenario if that's the best thing for the Twins' organization."

The Twins will receive first-round and sandwich (between the first and second rounds) draft picks next June for losing Hunter via free agency. They would receive the same if Santana leaves after next season as a free agent.

============

Jim....lol

grampa
I am of the 50s,thru now yanks fans. I remember the great #7 and ford and many more from the old days. It was great back then, you saw the guys come up and stay. You could yell at them...or for them...and they would still be there next year, as long as they did a good job. I, for one, would like to see those days to return again. Keep the kids, bring in someone when we find a great deal. But for goodness sakes, don't let other teams use us they have been doing for years...just to up the asking price for someone we could use, but don't need.

Yes, and sometimes 'as long as they did a good job' was liberally interpreted if I remember correctly... ;-)

It's great seeing kids come up and develop and stay around at least long enough to see what they are made up of, but I don't pretend that every kid I liked seeing come up in pinstripes was great. I don't want to cause bad feelings, but it is hard for me to believe that someone who says Melky 'has shown great patience at the plate' actually watched many games in '07.

Stats are a valuable tool when used in measured doses and focused on the specific issue at hand. They are no substitute for watching large numbers of whole games and seeing in detail what players do in game circumstances.

No hurt feelings Gramp, I can assure you that I saw 95% of the games this past season if not more.

I guess great patience is a relative term. Did Melk led the league in walks? Heck no, was he even in the top 50? Negative on that as well. What I was trying to establish is that his K/BB ratio is excellent for a 22 year, an age when players are usually getting their feet wet at AA. Again, if you faced the Yanks the last thing you would do is walk Melk with the top of the order coming up. Pitchers were throwing him strikes, 1/2 the months he took advantage of it, the other half he did not.

I think I see why so many Yankee fans are down on Melk this offseason. I remember him having a bad Sept, I forgot how bad though.

Sept - .180 Avg - .456 OPS - 8 BB - 20 K

I took a look and confirmed that was his worst month ever in his young career.

Take a look at the 3 previous months after he got the starting CF job.

June - .298 Avg - .811 OPS - 10 BB - 10 K
July - .368 Avg - .939 OPS - 7 BB - 15 K
August - .306 Avg - .818 OPS - 7 BB - 8 K

Those are excellent numbers for a guy that turned 22 on August 11th.

His minor league splits indicate that he has patience at the plate as well. 1432 AB's...108 BB...214 K good for a .347 OBP. Again not the best in the league, but pretty good. As he gets more comfortable at the plate, his eye will be even better, in a couple years he will be in the .375 OBP range, that will put him in the top 25. Im sure you know guys know better than most in there that you dont start out with a .400 OBP your rookie year. For comparison sake lets take a look at someone else who had an excellent eye.

Age 22 - .238 Avg - .336 OBP - .686 OPS - 48 BB - 57 K
Age 23 - .280 Avg - .354 OBP - .760 OPS - 29 BB - 36 K
Age 24 - .268 Avg - .333 OBP - .733 OPS - 53 BB - 106 K

It wasnt until this player was 25 that his OBP reached .384, he also would never strike out 106 times for the rest of his career. That switch hitting CF was none other than Bernie Williams. If we didnt stink so bad back in 91, 92 and 93, maybe this kid Bernie Williams would have been included as the 2nd player in some package. You never know what you have until years later...so lets give Melky a chance. What do ya say old timers??

from buster onley:

The Yankees' last bid was also a four-for-one offer that would have included Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, pitching prospect Jeff Marquez and a fourth prospect that the teams never settled on. That offer isn't currently on the table. But those talks could be revived if Hank Steinbrenner pushes the Yankees back into active discussions.

If one 4th playe is staning in the way - this sis a joke.

If sh wants t o keep Hughes thans say so - dont feed up this line of B.S

Hey Nudge ....

It's late but so what . GS is the most winning owner and one fact is THE YANKEES WERE THE WINNIEST TEAM in the 80's alone.

his dynasty in the 90's was only duped in the 70's A's

Torre dynasty was only duped by bobby cox who only had One WS to show for it.

Bronx Bomber... spare me the glory of the 1980s Yankees please
It was the only post Babe Ruth decade to NOT include a title

The F---ing Brewers tied them for World Series appearances

The transcript of Roger Clemens' appearance on Sixty Minutes was just released to the public.

Here are some of the highlights ...

60 Minutes: When you threw the broken bat at Mike Piazza during the World Series, you said you did this "because you thought the bat was the ball."

Roger: Yes, that's what I said.

60 Minutes: You thought the bat was the ball?

Roger: Yes.

60 Minutes: You really thought the bat was the ball?

Roger: Are you deaf? Am I speaking Swahili or something?

60 Minutes: So, it's kind of like Dodge Bat?

Roger: Well sort of ... didn't you ever play Dodge Ball when you were a kid?

60 Minutes: Yes, in gym in Mr. Peabody's class. But no one ever threw a bat. Only a ball.

Roger: Interesting ... no one ever threw a bat. That's odd ...

60 Minutes: Anyway ... moving along ... you were arrested in a brawl at your son's Little League Game.

Roger: I resent that! It was a VERY important game!

60 Minutes: And when you tried to kill Piazza with a 100 MPH fastball to the head ...?

Roger: Well, like duh ... he had hit a home run off of me. I couldn't get him out fair and square ... I don't like home runs. And I wanted to be a great example to the kids ... to kids everywhere. Can't you see how right I was for doing that? Can't we all get along? I didn't inhale. I did not have sex with that woman! No new taxes! Mission Accomplished! Bring em' on! We're kicking booty!

60 Minutes: Shawn Estes once hit a home run off of you ...

Roger: And he also tried to hit me in the hiney with the ball. He's silly!

60 Minutes: As we once asked Madeline Albright,'Was it worth it?'

Roger: It was definately worth it! Whatever 'it' was.

60 Minutes: On your son, er I mean your friend, Andy Pettitte shooting up HGH. Why would someone who makes countless millions per year not use trained, expert doctors to administer such a crucial series of injections? Why use the clubhouse attendant?

Roger: I see what you are getting at. You mean like, why not just ask the cashier at Winn Dixie to inject you with the HGH, or better yet, some guy at the Car Wash? ... Good question.

60 Minutes: Exactly ...

Roger: Honestly, the clerk at Toys R Us was on her tea break.

Anthony,

Anytime you feel you're ready to talk to a psychiatrist - let me know and I'll recommend one.

Then again, long term treatment at a state hospital may be more suitable in your case.

Grampa, you're right, I was excited about Jerry Lumpe and Norm Siebern, among others, and of course they got traded away and turned out to be pretty ordinary (although I think Siebern had at least one very good year with KC, if memory serves me correctly.)

But I believe these kids are cut from another cloth altogether.

Ken 777, I share your enthusiasm and luckily we have an eloquent and well prepared 'spokesman' in DRU.

McNamee's lawyer pushes back:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/27/2007-12-27_roger_clemens_legal_action_would_be_friv-1.html

Basically stating the obvious, BM was not going to jail ala Greg Anderson.

Viper,

As King Solomon, the wisest and richest man who ever lived once said, "Only a fool believes in his heart there is no God."

That's you, right? In your own words as you told us on this Blog.

It must be hard to be you in all that darkness. With no God, no future, no eternal life. To rot in the end in the ground, and foolishly think that's all there is. When I think of you I feel a great and deep sadness. Maybe that's why you can't give love and worth and significance to others, and always bring them down. Maybe it's because you really don't love yourself. And you want everyone else to feel as miserable as you are.

Since we can't meet face to face, I will just have to pray for you!

I mean that. I will really pray that you find the Lord and you find some kind of purpose and direction in life. Beyond baseball and whatever else you do.

I think deep down you are a good man, pretty smart and you have a good side to you. No hard feelings ok?

And hopefully too you will develop a sense of humor along the way! (Re Clemens on 60 Minutes.) Did someone pee in your Cheerios this morning?

Enough about Viper's never ending nastiness and mean spirited-ness ...

There is an article in the National New York Post about Johan Santana today. It talked about the trade possibilities with the Mets, Yankees and Boston.

Would you, if you were Minny, rather have ... ?????

Lester and Coco Puffs and Lowrie ...

Pelfrey and Gomez or Martinez or Mulvey or Heilman or some combination thereof ...

Hughes, Ian, Horne, Melky in some combination ...

Then there is the 130 million for Johan and the luxury tax, in what is soon to be a very down global and national economy. (Which we'll all soon care about.)

Hal Steinbrenner, according to the NY Post, runs the economic side of things and it is he who doesn't want to take on Johan. That's smart.

The article also said the Red Sox are still in the running. Or are in the lead to get Johan S.

I don't really think Lester is that great. Nice kid and it is a nice story how he beat cancer.But is he a young Pettitte? Coco is not very good in my mind. Would you trade him for Hunter Pence or Josh Hamilton one for one? The other teams would laugh. I wouldn't even trade Austin Kearns for him.

To the point, I think Minny is trying to leverage the Yankees by using Boston. I suppose this is obvious. Minny would not be that stupid so as to trade Johan for Lester and Coco and Lowrie (is that his name, the minor league 2B?).

The article said Arizona traded bulk for Harren, because they have one of the best farm systems. If the Mets trade bulk, they will really hurt their farm systerm. They don't have that many chips. So I don't think the Mets are a real option for Johan.

Anyway, for the Yankees it appears it is all up to the kids and the young arms. The team did not fix its many, many flaws and may in fact slip behind Toronto. When they kept Abreu, didn't get Eckstein, continued the high school drama (steroids, HGH, Torre, Mattingly, A Rod, A Rod's agent, no lefty arms), kept the old, injury prone and dead wood legion (Giambi, Igawa, Mussina, Damon, Matsui, Farnsworth) they guaranteed another non-World Series season. That's a done deal. For the insane ticket prices, they should have done better. Getting rid of Cashman would be the first place to start turning things around.

Maybe there will be events in the coming few months which will make the Yankees a better bet for 2008. Right now they've spent 400 million for the same team as last year.

The team Paul Byrd blew away when it mattered most.

Dad - AKA Yanks61 - Im just doing my part to spread the word of building the new dynasty from within! What if after the 93 season the Yanks traded Andy and Bernie for CY Young winner Jack McDowell, or former winners Bob Welch or Bret Saberhagen. I bet that at the time the Royals, A's or White Sox would have turned down the Bernie and Andy for either of those three since they had won CY Youngs and were in their primes. Bernie had worse stats than Melky does now at the time and Andy was more of a prospect than any of our big three.

I know its hard to determine who will be Brandon Webb and who will be Brandon Clausen. I think sometimes the fans are so worried about the Sox, they dont know what to do. They want a guarantee, a quick fix. Thats not how dynasties are formed. They are formed with tough moves and maybe taking a small step back to move forward in subsequent years.

For the pro Santana side, I see where you're coming from and dont think you're wrong for wanting to get the best lefty SP in the league. Like Ive said before, I value all your inputs and opinions. That's what keeps me coming back! THE DEBATE RAGES ON!!!

GO YANKS!!!

Ant... some of us don't believe in God because we don't believe in magic, ghosts and hobbits.

I for one believe in Zeus.

Believe in whatever you want and I won't believe in whatever I don't believe in.

I won't tell you what to believe or not believe in...
BUT the last time I checked this was a baseball blog focusing on the ins and outs of the Yankees... NOT a forum for Theological debate.

In other Words
STOP TALKING ABOUT RELIGION AND POLITICS!!!!!!!

DRU - Right on son, keep those words of wisdom coming!

Viper - It's charitable of you to offer Ant the name of someone who can give him some help, but unfortunately he's beyond help.

Sully - Anyone who needs to keep preaching in spite of the many requests from regulars on this blog to just shut up and talk baseball is certainly a head case worth simply ignoring. The only reason I know he's still posting his political/religious nonsense is because you guys complain about it. I simply skip over his posts altogether. It may not stop him if no one replies to his rants (I doubt it, in fact) but at least you don't have to read his garbage.

ZEUS!!! LOL HILARIOUS!!!!

Well said, Yanks61 and Sully.

Anthony,

You say the same crap over and over again to people who tell you to stuff it with your political/religious gibberish. Can't you be the least bit original?

Your rants are old and tiresome and nobody on this blog respects you because you don't respect anyone's right to come in here and read about baseball - and baseball alone.

If you have an undying need to pray for someone - simply look in the mirror.

I believe in Zortan, and if all of this religious stuff does not stop:

YOU WILL ALL BE SACRIFICED!!!!

Have a nice day.

Zeus indeed!

It's been too quiet on the baseball front these past few weeks.

Sully,

I watched a movie with your wife's favorite hottie, Viggo the other night.

"Eastern Promises".

How was it?
I LOVED History of Violence

My Mrs. liked it for different reasons than me

I'll bet my bottom dollar Ant is not married. What woman could possibly put up with his nonstop BS? Plus this guy is sorely lacking in the personality department. I'd say Ant stands for Ant-agonist

Sully,

I am sorry you don't know the Lord.

And that because of that, your twins won't know the Lord.

God is real, like the wind, you can just feel it.l

Regardles to you and everyone else, Happy New Year.

May we all get through it together, one way or another.

You have all taught me so much ...

I know the Lord... and because of that I will use everything in my power to make sure my kids NEVER know him!

I want my kids to develop brains and not be afraid of an angry, jealous, petty, homicidal maniac floating in the sky.

Angry, jealous, petty, homicidal maniacs -- You're describing human beings, buddy.

SULLY -- I guess when something goes wrong in your life you blame it on your parents. You expect your parents to be walking by your side and watching over you constantly, making sure you don't do anything wrong. In that way your parents are responsible for all the bad things that happen to you and the people around you. It's a shame you don't cherish freedom as a human being, giving you the ability to live apart and independent from the source that brought you into this world. Then you'd have to blame yourself and your fellow man for the woes in this world and that would be unacceptable to you. I hope you can gasp this analogy.

NOW BACK TO THE NEW YORK YANKEES.