Girardi talk
The news of the day is not coming from the Yankees -- the blockbuster deal is the Tiger swinging a huge trade to acquire slugger Miguel Cabrera and pitcher Dontrelle Willis. But manager Joe Girardi did talk. I'll post the entire transcript below.
December 4, 2007
Joe Girardi
NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE
Q. What does it mean to you to have Andy Pettitte back, personally, before team-wise?
JOE GIRARDI: Obviously there's some details that have to be worked out.
Personally it means a lot because I know what Andy is all about. I had a chance to play with Andy and it was a wonderful experience, and what Andy brings to the table on the field, off the field in the clubhouse, just the type of man he is. He's important to our club.
Q. As far as the club is concerned, do you get caught up, ever, in what the team is going to do transaction-wise? Do you leave that alone or do you think about that kind of stuff when you're alone trying to figure out what you're going to do?
JOE GIRARDI: Obviously we have discussions as an organization about players. But on an every day basis, no. You worry more about the players that are in the room, in the clubhouse that you have under your control, because that's really all that you could control at that time and how you use those players. So I don't get too caught up on what might be.
Q. You have your team set for the most part, maybe there's a big piece coming, maybe not, but does it help you prepare in the winter when you pretty much know what you have and there's no question marks?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think it's obviously easier when you have a club that you're more familiar with than not familiar with. I went through that experience where we had a lot of young players in Florida, and you had to learn what they could do and what they can't do in a lot of situations in six weeks in Spring Training, four weeks of games, and that's kind of tough.
So obviously when you're familiar with your players and you have an idea of what your lineup is going to be and what your rotation is going to be, it is a little bit easier. There are in guarantees in this game, you have to perform.
Q. In the conversations that you had with Andy, did you feel like you had to convince him?
JOE GIRARDI: No, not really. You know, I talked to him shortly after the season and I talked to him a couple days ago and I told him, you know, I would be calling back around December 1.
Because I know personally as a player that, you know, when the season is over, you don't really want to make up your mind right away. You know, you're mentally fatigued, you're physically fatigued, you want to get home and spend some time with your family and think about your situation. That's why I told him I would call him in a couple of weeks. You know, Andy is a true professional, and I just can't tell you how happy I am to have him back.
Q. Did he give you any idea what made up his mind for him?
JOE GIRARDI: Not necessarily. He just said, "I'm ready to come back and I want to come back."
I think what brought Andy back is he loves what he does, and the competitive juice us probably start flowing again. He had a chance to recharge his batteries a little bit and he's ready to go.
Q. What's your opinion of Phil Hughes?
JOE GIRARDI: My opinion of Phil Hughes, I think it's unfair to have a strong opinion one way or another about a young man that, you know, has had some starts in the big leagues, but not a ton of starts. But obviously there's a lot of talent there. He's a work-in-progress, like all players.
Obviously the big thing is to keep him healthy and get him out there, you know, every fifth day.
Q. What's it like for you right now not knowing what parts might be leaving the team, what parts might be coming in?
JOE GIRARDI: I don't really worry about that. You know, you look at what you've got now, and you know, you go up into the room that we're in and see a board and you know who you have and you know who you don't have and you focus on what you have.
Q. What about in Florida, you dealt with a very inexperienced young pitching staff; can you talk specifically about what the differences will be going to New York? And you know the pitchers and have played with them and have a lot more experience, just talking about the pitching; is that easier?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, we're going to have some guys on the staff that are somewhat inexperienced as well. This is not going to be a five-man rotation that consists of, you know, guys that have, you know, five, six, seven, eight years of development. We're going to have many young kids starting some games.
Obviously you know what you have in Chien-Ming Wang, and you know what you have in Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina on a daily basis. But there are would more spots that have to be filled there and some young guys that need to fill in the bullpen. I think the experience with the young guys and protecting the young guys was probably valuable for me.
Q. Going in, you mentioned the three veterans you have, do you look at Mussina as one of your starters, or is there a chance he could end up on the outside looking in, since you have six guys right now?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, you have six guys. I think everyone if you were to say that you were going to design your rotation today, Mike Mussina would definitely be in the mix. You would think that he would be one of those starters, and obviously as I said before, you have to perform.
You know, a lot of people had some question marks on Mike Mussina he had some pretty good months last year. He had a bad month. And it seems when you get older and you have a bad month, people automatically think that you are done. If you're young and you have a bad month, you need more seasoning. And if you're in the middle of the career, you just say you're having a bad month.
I don't think Mike Mussina has forgotten how to pitch, and I still think that he can be successful.
Q. Mussina aside, if you had two or three, you know pretty inexperienced pitchers in your rotation, how does that -- how do you stack up against Boston and the rest of the American League if you have to go in with that much inexperience?
JOE GIRARDI: Time will tell. I mean, these kids are talented. There's no doubt that they are not talented young pitchers.
But they are being asked to perform at a high level, like all of the other players in that room were asked to perform at a high level at some time; whether it was Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera or Andy Pettitte or Alex Rodriguez or Robinson Cano, and they are going to get a chance to take that next step.
Q. Have you had a chance to talk to Alex?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes.
Q. How has that gone?
JOE GIRARDI: It went great. Obviously he's very happy and there are some details that still have to be worked out there as well but he's excited.
Q. Knowing that you are going to have Andy Pettitte back, how does that change your need for another impact veteran guy, veteran pitcher in your rotation?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think it gives you a guy that you can pencil in for 32 starts, and you know that he can handle the workload. He's used to the workload from a physical standpoint, as well as a mental standpoint, and that's good to know.
When you have a lot of young pitchers, you have to be a lot more careful about their workload and how many starts and how many innings they throw.
Q. Obviously there's one guy out there, we all know you're going after him, I know you don't want to get into the specifics of that, because you have Andy, does that lessen your need to go get a big guy?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, obviously, Andy is important to the rotation, and I think everyone saw how important he was last year, what he did against Cleveland in a big game last year, so we needed Andy. We needed Andy's presence.
Q. At your initial press conference, you said you understand that playing at a championship level is what is expected. Do you think as the rotation is comprised right now that you can get there?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, I do. It is our job to get there as a club, as an organization. And yeah, the pitchers are young. Phil Hughes got valuable experience last year. Joba Chamberlain got valuable experience. Ian Kennedy, even though his experience was a little bit shorter, was very valuable. They learned how to compete at this level.
Now you have to be able to do it over a six-month period, you know, the 162 games, and then you see where you're at.
Q. Do you think that's problematic because you're not doing it with one guy, and maybe not even two guys, but that you might be asking three guys to all take that leap for six months, maybe a seventh month, championship level, that it might just be too much?
JOE GIRARDI: You know, you can compare a little bit to 1996. Obviously the pieces were spread out a little bit, but you had a rookie shortstop, you basically had a rookie pitcher in Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera and think about the roles they played that year for the New York Yankees in winning the championship. I'd like to parallel it to that.
Yeah, two of them might be starters, one might be in the bullpen or three of them might be starters or one of them might be a starter. I mean, they are expected to step up, and I think they are ready to make that step.
Q. In building the bridge to Mariano, which always seems to be so important each and every year, and last year you took Chamberlain and made him a reliever. Is there a possibility not of the three guys that we talked about, but maybe a Jeff Marquez or somebody like that in the system could be used as a starter, and maybe finding a guy like that in the system, is there a possibility of that happening?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, obviously I think we are going to look at guys in the system. I think that is a possibility.
You know, there's going to be some young players, young pitchers, especially, to get a chance to perform, whether it's in the rotation or the bullpen. And you're going to look at guys like Jeffrey Marquez and Ross Ohlendorf, and there's more guys coming. And we are expecting them as an organization to step up.
Q. How do you handle, with all of the outfield ares that you have now and first base and DH, how do you see that shaking out? Well, I don't think you can say exactly how it's going to shake out because people have to perform. People also have to be healthy.
JOE GIRARDI: I was on clubs here in the late 90s; there were more people than positions to fill, and we made it work and we won championships. And we will try to do the same now. I mean, you never know -- I don't think you can ever have too many people.
Q. You're clearly very familiar with the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry. What's it like to watch now as there's other off-season competition going on?
JOE GIRARDI: You know what I think it's what makes baseball great.
Sometimes it's nice to pull back and just be a fan and say, you know what, this is what makes our game so great. It never really stops. It never takes a break. If you're thinking about off-seasons of other sports, you don't hear as much.
And, you know, it's interesting. I'm sure there's other clubs involved that maybe none of us have heard about yet, but I think it's great.
Q. How do you think that rivalry has changed since you were playing?
JOE GIRARDI: I think it's intensified a little bit more because they have met in the playoffs a few more times, and I think that's brought a higher intensity level to it.
Q. As a Yankee manager, do you worry that they might dramatically improve their team?
JOE GIRARDI: I worry about our club. I can't worry about what other clubs are doing or I won't sleep at all because there's 29 other clubs you've got to worry about.
No. I mean, you've got to worry about who is in your clubhouse and how you're going to get the best out of those guys as an organization and that's what I worry about.
Q. Whether you worry or not how much better does it make Boston if they add another All-Star caliber pitcher to their rotation already?
JOE GIRARDI: You never know. You never know how things are going to play out. So, you know, we'll find out in, what, about eight months.
Q. Do you feel like you have a tough act to follow with Joe Torre's 12 championship years in a row?
JOE GIRARDI: No, I don't. You know, I have to be myself and that's all I can be is myself.
Obviously there has been lofty expectations on this club long before Joe Torre was here. He had to come in to fill someone's shoes, and Buck Showalter before that and it just goes on and on.
The expectations have always been here, and that's one of the things that makes this job so great.
Q. Do you feel you're a different manager now with the Yankees than you were with the Marlins?
JOE GIRARDI: I think I've grown a lot as a person. I think you learn a lot through your experiences in life, whether it's on the field or off the field or no matter what you're doing. So I'm definitely a different person.
Q. When you were hired, you didn't have a third baseman, a closer, a catcher and one of your starting pitchers --
JOE GIRARDI: (Laughter) A lot's happened in a month.
Q. Do you think you with go four or four with those guys and get everybody back or are you surprised at how it worked out?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I'm a little bit surprised because the club had talked about, you know, if Alex opted out, they probably wouldn't bring him back. But I'm not surprised the club stepped up. I think that's what the Yankees have always done, they have always stepped up and tried to give the organization, the fans, the players in the room, the coaches, the managers, the best players they can give them.
Q. To what degree were you maybe behind the scenes calling those guys when they were still free agents and encouraging them to stay?
JOE GIRARDI: I talked to the guys obviously, because I know how important they are. And I know how important Jorge Posada has been to the Yankees for the last 12 years, and Mariano Rivera and Andy Pettitte, and Alex, the year that he had.
Obviously you know, you make a wish list and you put all the guys on it, not knowing that you're going to get them all, but it's nice when it happens.
Q. Pitching staff the way you have it currently constituted, do you think it's the kind of staff that can win a championship?
JOE GIRARDI: Those are my expectations. Obviously it's, you know, when you put up a board, you don't have it down to an exact science who the 12 names are going to be. There's going to be some competition in Spring Training which I think is a great thing because I think competition brings out the best in people.
Q. Seems like everything is focused on that one huge rumor out there. Is there something else that you're confident or how would you characterize something else getting done with your organization?
JOE GIRARDI: I think the way the club is constructed today, there's a good chance it's not going to be construct that had way February 14th when we report.
I'm confident they will do everything in their power to put the best team in that clubhouse.
Q. I missed out on your answer earlier; did you have to convince Andy to come back, was that a difficult sell?
JOE GIRARDI: No, playing for the Yankees is not a difficult sell. It's a wonderful place to play, and I can tell you that through my experiences.
I think Andy just needed to step back and take some time to evaluate and recharge, and you know, he wants to try it again.
Q. Your relationship with Kyle Farnsworth, how important is that in trying to, you know, get the most out of him this last year considering the problems he's had the first two years?
JOE GIRARDI: I think it's important, and obviously it's my hope that it works out for the best. I mean, I had a chance to catch Kyle when he was in Chicago when he was dominant. I've always had a lot of confidence in what he can do.
And I've seen Kyle at his best, so I look forward to him getting back to that.
Q. What can you do, taking advantage of that relationship, what can you do to get him back there?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think you know -- I know Kyle's personality. I kind of know what makes Kyle tick from a standpoint because obviously we are 61 feet apart a lot of days.
I'll use the things that I know about Kyle to instill confidence and motivate him.
Q. You mentioned that the team will be different come February 14th. Where do you think you need the most improvement in that?
JOE GIRARDI: I didn't say it would be different. I said there's a chance it would be different.
I think obviously the Yankees are the type of club, like any other club, whenever you can make an upgrade, if it fits, you'll try to make that upgrade. And it's possible nothing may be done over the next three months. But it's also very possible that something could be done.
So that's why I don't focus too much on, you know, what might be. We'll find out February 14th.
Q. How has the communication been with Brian --
JOE GIRARDI: Great.
Q. -- in the last 24 hours about these trade rumors?
JOE GIRARDI: It's been great since day one. I'm on the phone a couple times a day with him. It's been very good.
Q. There was so much made last year about Joba and the limitations with three rookie starters in the infancy of their careers, have you guys talked about limits in terms of innings?
JOE GIRARDI: We've talked about the amount of innings, I'm not doing to share what they are but we've talked about the amount of innings that these guys -- that we feel they can pitch, and it's in their natural progression of growing as a pitcher. That's something we'll have to address during the season.
Q. With that said, is it almost like having six pitch pitchers, is that a way --
JOE GIRARDI: It's a great thing. Yes, it's a great thing.
Q. Do you know something about Duncan's problem with his arm?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, obviously he's had some circulatory issues, and he is doing better. And you know, he'll be evaluated every couple weeks, every month, and we'll see where he's at February 15th.
Q. What's your impression of the business side of baseball being here at the Winter Meetings and the long hours of talking about Santana and being involved in that?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I'm glad I'm not -- I'm glad I don't have a pad and a piece of paper. Long days for everyone here.
But to me it's what makes baseball special. I like it. I mean, I can never it get enough baseball. I don't know, maybe some people can, but I can never it get enough of it, so I like it.
Q. Is there a philosophical difference, within the club, can you see the debate of picking up Santana at the expense of rebuilding the foundation?
JOE GIRARDI: I'm not really going to get into that. Obviously there's been a lot written about, you know, possibly Santana being traded to certain clubs, but I'm not really going to get into that.
Obviously we feel very strong about our young players here, and the organization, Brian, have worked hard the last couple years trying to rebuild the system. We're starting to see some of the fruits of that system. Let's just hope that it's a continual flow.
Q. Are you guys still involved in the Santana talks?
JOE GIRARDI: You know, that's something that Brian has done most of the talking about, and obviously that's not something for me to share.
Q. In the year you had Cabrera --
JOE GIRARDI: Great. Miguel Cabrera is a great player.
Q. I don't want to put words in your mouth but what you said a minute ago, are you intimating you could go with a six-man rotation at times during the year, use off-days to give guys extra rest?
JOE GIRARDI: I'm not insinuating we'll do a six-man rotation, but what I am saying is we'll watch innings very careful. If people start getting to certain levels, adjustments will have to be made.
Q. Is it tough when you're in a position where you're looking at contending for a championship where you have to think to yourself, I can only use this pitcher five innings tonight or six innings tonight and not just let the game go as it is?
JOE GIRARDI: Every team has issues that they have to worry about. That's just the nature of the business. If you didn't have issues, it wouldn't be a competition, so that's what makes our job interesting and fun.
Q. There are certain players who you already knew very well having played with or coached. Have you gotten a chance to visit with some of the other players or talk to them?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, I have. I've talked to the other players. I will continue making calls and trying to see as many of them as I can before Spring Training.
Q. You said earlier that you were glad you had the experience of working with young pitchers with the Marlins. What can you take from that to help the young Yankees young pitchers, what he is the biggest thing you learned working with young pitchers?
JOE GIRARDI: You have to be patient, making sure that they have a plan of how to be successful is very important, instilling confidence in them and physically protecting them.
Q. You've watched Santana pitch for many years, where would you put him, top three pitchers, top five pitchers?
JOE GIRARDI: I don't know if you can characterize exactly where he would be. But obviously he's one of the premiere pitchers in the game.
Q. How much do you value defense at first base and left field, and how would that play into your mixing and matching?
JOE GIRARDI: I always value defense. I think defense is very important. Because you can save a lot of runs, as well as drive in a lot of runs. So we will look at those things as Spring Training goes on -- excuse me, as the season goes on, but it's very important to me.
Q. Have you had a chance to talk to Giambi at all?
JOE GIRARDI: We have kind of played phone tag.
Q. I think Cashman said, you know, your regular left fielder is Damon, so Hideki has no chance to compete for a regular position?
JOE GIRARDI: Everyone has a chance to compete. Obviously everyone has a chance to compete. He's coming off knee surgery. We'll see how he's in Spring Training. We're expecting him to be fully healthy but everyone has a chance to compete.
Q. If you go to Spring Training with these six pitchers, obviously wouldn't say right now if you would commit to a six-man rotation, but is it something you would consider coming out of Spring Training?
JOE GIRARDI: We are not planning on using a six-man rotation.
Q. Do you feel any emotions about being manager in the last year at Yankee Stadium?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes. Special, very, very special. I've been fortunate to be a lot of places in my career and obviously this is one of them. I've had a chance to play for the Yankees, win championships. But it will be a special moment.
Q. What's been the best part about being the manager of the Yankees so far?
JOE GIRARDI: The best part of being a Yankee manager? I just think the anticipation of walking through that clubhouse door down the tunnel on to the field. I remember what it was like as a player, and I think it's going to be equally as magnificent as a manager.
Q. No courtside seats, good tables?
JOE GIRARDI: You know what, I got Hannah Montana tickets for my daughter, which made big points, big points.
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Comments (126)
What to make of the current moves?
D. Willis is a very good hitter for a pitcher. Like Ankiel, (when he was blowing people away), Wainwright, Kip Wells and Jason Marquis, it would have been better for him to stay in the NL. As a hitter he'd have the advantage in almost every game vs. the opposing team's pitcher.
Detroit has a pretty good team. The Angels. Red Sox. Cleveland. And the Yanks. It will be close for the Wild Card.
As such, let's get back to the Yanks, and look at them as what should be an elite team. Like Coca Cola, Microsoft, New England Patriots and the 82nd Airborne, why can't the Yankees be an elite American institution anymore?
A. Wrong Mix of players
B. No esprit de corps
C. Too politically correct
D. Too many languages
E. No core plan
F. Too much dead wood
G. Too many long term contracts
H. Too injury prone
I. Not good at small ball
J. No leadership at key points
K. No one goes the extra mile
L. Hope to win instead of knowing they'll win
M. Don't pick up key personnel they need
N. Herb Brooks: Best player? No, the right players
O. Too trapped by Japan marketing
P. Let go of good guys: Phillips, Nieves et al
Q. Not role models (A Rod et al)
R. Costs for ordinary fan climbing out of control
S. No lefties in pen, minors
T. Let Boston get Beckett, Mice K, Oji, Schilling
U. No David Eckstein, Josh Hamilton, Gregg
V. Abreu afraid of wall
W. Cano and Melky can't work the out
X. Can't hit with RISP
Y. Igawa over Lilly
Z. (Add your own reason)
That said, after Mo, Jorge, Andy and A Rod are back, we're still only the 4th or 5th best team. Add Johan and that is 500 million in guaranteed contracts that guarantee zilch.
No Mussina in the rotation.
No, no, no.
Trade Mussina and Igawa to San Diego. Bye bye!!!!!!!!!!!!
And we know these guys will get hurt at some point:
Giambi
Damon
Matsui
We know these guys will suck at some point:
Farnsworth
Igawa
Henn
Mussina
Still way too much dead wood.
Highest equity
Highest payroll
Best team?
Not yet ...
Wow....I thought it was just the younger generation that said "you know" all the time. That's a pet peeve of mine and it drives me crazy....you know?
I'd bet that 99% of the league would choose Phil Hughes over Jon Lester.
I'd bet that 95% of the league would choose Phil Hughes over Clay Bucholz.
Baseball America, Peter Gammons and Buster Olney would back me up on that.
So, SOMEONE answer me this: Why are the Red Sox close to getting Santana when Boston has offered a far inferior deal?
Sorry, Cano and Melky don't work the count ... as we all know.
You know Jim A., it's like totally, not cool Oh-My-God to talk that way ... you know?
Ant,
Tell us the truth....you are really Woody Allen, aren't you?
Chuckie,
95% of the league dont hold the rights to Johan Santana.
Besides, you are wrong.
The Mets offered Phillip Humber, Carlos Gomez and Aaron Heilman for Erik Bedard. I don't know if that gets it done.
So the Indians are a good young team with proven major league players and are better than the Yanks.
The Tigers just made a deal for GREAT young players - key is they gave up talent, but unpoven talent --They ae better than the Yanks
Red SOx are about to complete one of the most dominant stating fives of al time
Angels are aguably better than the Yanks and ae cetainly a major nemesis.
So our playoff chances look really really good right now
Gee I am so glad that the Trenton and Scranton will continue to win championships with their great young talent.
Hopefully the package the TIgers got wil show the Twins that the Red Sox offer is crap and hopefully the Yanks will wake up and stop playing hardball. This whole time they thought the Sox were bluffing and obviosly they were not. Give the Twins a more than fair offer and bring in the one guy out there that could make this team better than the rest of the AL.
Hughes, Melky, AJAX, and Horne. In three years I will cry about losing them. Its better than 3 years of not making the playoffs and watching Boston hoist up tuophy after trophy.
My suspition is that Hank is handling the negotiations and my prediction is that Cash wont be aound too long as he gets fustrated with an owner who thinks he is a maste negotiator because he got AROD tto take 25 million of the contact through bonuses instead of gaunteed salary.
Unless Hughes tuns out to be a dominant ACE - I will always look at this day as a dark day in Yankee history
Good deal for both clubs, I would guess, Jim.
As they say at NASA ... Houston, we have a problem!!!
FACT: If Sox close this deal for Santana (and since Hank has publicly and LOUDLY stated the Yanks are 100% OUT and since the Angels also made the same claim there's nobody left but the Sox to get this done) ... anyway, IF Sox close this deal, Yanks are wild card chasers for the next 3-5 years. A rotation core of Santana-Beckett-DiceK-Bucholz for the next 5 years spells HUGE PROBLEMS.
FACT: In AL Central: Tigers are now better ... Indians are very good .... White Sox have resources to be competitive .... Twins are always able to surprise (only Royals have no shot) ... in AL West: Angels are stacked and Mariners look better .... Oakland always is competitive. In AL East: Toronto can be tough and Rays are getting better (plus Yanks always have their problems w/ them) ... that means Yanks have at least 3 legitimate (and potentially 5 other teams) that they have to fight each year for just 1 playoff spot. Not good.
So, we somehow need these kids to be superstars out of the box. Alot to ask from the kiddies. I'm concerned for sure.
Two days ago, the papers said the Yanks and Twins were close. They weren't. Now they are saying the Sox and Twins are close. Who knows? The longer this drags out the more one has to wonder if the Twins are playing the same games with Theo as he did with Cashman. I suspect there are other clubs, the Yanks included who could jump right back in if this thing continues to drag out. I just have a feeling the Twins are leaking to the press in order to create panic in Yankeeland. The thought of Santana pitching in Boston is something to shudder over.
now its Haren fo basically the same deal they offered fo Santana? What about how valuably the youth is? Haren cant hold Johan's jock and instead of giving up a little more for Johan than they wanted to - they are going to give up Hughes for Haren?
What the hell is going on?
Haren doesnt make this team a championship team. Unless Huston Street comes with him - this deal is crap...hope as many people complain about this one. at least there is good reason to
The one saving grace to any Yankee problem/issue is the fact that they have a world class organization with unlimited funds available, coupled with the bevy of talent they have through-out the farm system, and the ability to "pull the trigger" on virtually ANY deal they bequeath viable. So, sure...it sucks they dont get Santana..because after it is all said and done, dont we all think that is where Johan WAS likely to go?...and further, WASNT it really the BEST option insofar as the AL east and maintaining the rivalry between the Sox and Yanks?....well, it is just another chapter in an endless saga that will continue long past our musings on this blog. The era of one team being dominant over the other is history.....too much money at stake to have it any other way.
Steve I hope you are right, but I fear that you are not. ALthough conventional wisdom would say that there is no way the Twins trade Johan without getting someone with supesta potential - face it Lester fans - his ceiling is Petitte which is good but nowhere near that of Santana. In light of the trade the Marlins just made I have to think that the Twins would realize that they could get more. I think th.ey prefer a deal of 4 guys who project as major leaguers rather than a deal with a guy who projects as a sevicabe outfielder, a who know mid level guy, and a pitche with a chance to be a stud. He doesnt want to rest his future on Hughe's shoulders
If they want quantity I fdont see why the yanks cant offer that. Horne, AJax and one of the many mid-level pitchers White/Marquez (we cetainly have enough to spare). At this point you have to believe the Yanks are panicing and if the Twins proposed anyhting that did not include 2 of the big 3, the Yanks would jump on it. I just hope that they give the Yanks one last chance and that Hank the Yank actually picks up the phone rather than being a stubbon fool.
And if the sox get Johan - just think of how bad Beane will hold them up fo Haren knowing that he doesnt NEED to trade him and that the Yanks will be despeate to make the deal happen. Its reactions to the deals of others that tun out to be bad - not a trade fo the best pitche in baseball
People here always talk about a year or two of development, without a World Series trophy, as some kind of 1000-year Armageddon. I somehow doubt these people remember the 1989-1992 period when the Yanks went through four consecutive losing seasons. And that's not counting the bookend seasons of '88, when the Yanks had a winning record but clearly were not in conention, or '93, when the Yanks were essentially out of the race by late July.
Those four losing seasons were so bad because there was no light at the end of the tunnel. The organization had no direction and management didn't know what the hell it was doing, not to mention Managerial Musical Chairs was still the name of the game. The Yankees lost their own no-hitter one year and were swept in the season series by Oakland. Nobody knew if Don Mattingly would ever return to the game. Mel Hall and Steve Balboni were the team's top two power hitters, and Rickey Henderson had been traded for Luis Polonia. Boston had won the division twice. Derek Jeter hadn't been drafted yet.
Maybe I'm more patient because I went through those dark days, but some of you guys here need to chill and let these prospects develop. It's not like the Yanks are going to have a losing record any time soon, and it's not like they don't have a plan. Some of you guys have no patience or concept of sustainability. The Yankees didn't win the World Series in their last year in the Polo Grounds, and they didn't win the Series in '73. The world didn't end then.
Who was it, a few days ago, who actually doubted that Girardi could match Torre's ability to talk forever without actually *saying* anything?
Trading for Santana will be a return to thte 80's futility and early 90's exasperation! Let the kids prove us wrong....
I still want to know what happened to that guy who said to trade Will Nieves for Roy Oswalt.
Michael PTRS got on him and he disappeared.
What, Caspian, you didn't enjoy watching Mike Blowers at third? Hensley Bam Bam Meulens? Alvaro Espinoza coming in to pitch from SS in the really bad blowouts every couple of weeks? Tim Leary only losing 19 games because they sat him out the last 2 weeks of the season? Those were the days. Bleacher tix were still under $5, I think. I was still in school, but in the summers I would take the 4 train to the stadium after work with a 20 in my pocket, stretch out across a couple rows with a couple buddies, watch some laughable baseball, and come home with a slight buzz. No can do these days.
What, Caspian, you didn't enjoy watching Mike Blowers at third? Hensley Bam Bam Meulens? Alvaro Espinoza coming in to pitch from SS in the really bad blowouts every couple of weeks? Tim Leary only losing 19 games because they sat him out the last 2 weeks of the season?
Those were the days. Bleacher tix were still under $5--in, '89, anyway. $20 was almost enough for an evening: 4 train, ticket, a couple of tall pisswaters and a frank. Plus the place was empty, so you could stretch across three rows of bleachers, put your feet up, watch some laughable baseball and head home with a very slight buzz.
Weird goings-on at the "server." Don't know if it's down here or up in NY. Sorry for the double post, the thing said it timed out on me. Anyone else having difficulties posting? It actually says the site is too busy. Guess I'm not the only one pulling my hair out over Hank and Santana, huh?
If you listened to Torre waltz around the obvious questions (as Girardi kind of marched away from them tonight) you could often hear JT address some things that maybe hadn't been asked but had significance, or make a wry joke that would get his point across. He seemed very aware of using the process.
I don't know whether it was his conscious plan today or not but clearly Girardi had a theme: "stepping up", both as individuals and as an organization. How many times did he use that phrase in different forms? He was pretty insistent and repetitive about it.
DC,
I had difficulty as well, in fact the message I originally wrote got lost somewhere in the ether between here and there, and I ended up having to rather impatiently produce another version or just drop it...
Whoever made the comment about taking all day to say nothing at all, case in point:
Joe G: "I think obviously the Yankees are the type of club, like any other club, whenever you can make an upgrade, if it fits, you'll try to make that upgrade. And it's possible nothing may be done over the next three months. But it's also very possible that something could be done.
So that's why I don't focus too much on, you know, what might be. We'll find out February 14th."
Is that right out of Bull Durham, or what? Gotta love him.
It was also pretty clear that Girardi had nothing to do and was there as window dressing.
That first sentence is right out of the Chinese consul's handbook. I think he's going to be just fine. Kat may be in trouble, though.
DC, my fondest memory of that time isn't of Andy Hawkins losing that no-hitter (due to Mel Hall dropping a fly ball, IIRC) but of Mel Hall losing ANOTHER fly ball in the sun in Oakland in '89. I think that example of fundamentally sound baseball allowed Oakland to score a run but most importantly it broke Clay Parker's concentration, who had thrown something like 5 shutout innings up to that point.
I remember walking into a sports store and buying a Yankee hat and the employees there gave me SUCH a hard time about rooting for the Yankees. And this was in California.
Those were the days.
A big day for Venezuela.
El Loco ...
Well Chavez lost his insane take over the Central Bank, President for life referrendum.
El Primo ...
And the Yanks lost the Johan Satana trade sweepstakes.
But maybe in the end this is for the better. Hughes is a good pitcher and I want him to stay. He's 21.
All the trade scenarios gave me a headache. I actually went out and bought Extra Strength Excedrin.
We will be fine with the kids.
Looks like Detroit will be pretty good. Angels, Indians, Red Sox, Minny, Seattle ... and we will be in the mix.
Can we win?
Until we look at our roster and say every guy there is there for a great reason, like the New England Patriots, then we will not come near a World Series win.
We have way way way too much dead wood or people on the team for the culture they come from (signing 16 year old children from the Caribbean which should be a crime outlawed by the State Department) or marketing with East Asia (Igawa).
You can't waste a third of the payroll and a third of the roster.
You want Melky up with 2 out and RISP or Eckstein?
You want Abreu running to the wall or Josh Hamilton?
Your want Farnsworth pitching or Gregg on the Marlins? Or Percival whom we were trying to sign.
Moose can't be in the rotation. He is way too shakey. "Who do they have to replace me?" Duh! Hellloooooooooo!!!!!! Anyone!
Igawa, Pavano, Damon, Giambi, Farns, Henn can't get it done the way we need.
Matsui, Damon and Giambi will get hurt. They are brittle.
Farns will get hit
Mussina can't throw 84 mph and do it all year.
Cano and Melky won't do it when we need patience and pitches to be taken and working the count.
We don't have a bullpen. Why not sign Eddie Guardado, trade for Gregg and ask Tampa for Percival at the July break?
When Cashman said everyone wants Farns but he won't trade him I had to scratch my head.
Which Yankee slept with more underaged girls?
Luis Polonia
Mel Hall
Write your answer here __________________________
Clay Parker. That's a name I'd forgotten. Or conflated with Ken Clay. But I think Ken Clay was a better pitcher. Was Parker one of the guys who came over with Polonia and Plunk from Oakland?
Hank just made it official. No deal for Santana.
"A deadline is a deadline." Bonus quote: "This isn't fantasy baseball."
Quiz: is that what it was? I remember Polonia being arrested in Milwaukee and they wouldn't let him leave with the team until he saw the judge the next day. Brrr. A night alone in Milwaukee--you'd think they'd just call it even and let him go.
I shouldn't make light of it off-hand like that, but if I remember correctly he went out after a game with a local teen who hadn't told him her age. And he was all of about 22. The Wisconsin Mounties got wind of it and dragged him in. Anyone remember differently?
Clay Parker wasn't part of the Henderson trade. I believe he might have been part of the Buhner for Phelps trade, though I might be mistaken. I believe he was a quarterback at Louisiana State and chose baseball over football. Control pitcher with decent stuff.
The Yankee GM, who is staking his job on his young-gun pitchers, has walked away from a 4-for-1 trade of players the Twins were agreeable to for Johan Santana at the winter meetings that included Hughes, but not Ian Kennedy (as Minnesota initially requested) or any of the Bombers’ other top prospects. By doing so, Cashman has apparently handed one of the best young pitchers in baseball to the Red Sox for a parcel of prospects that is also likely to be a far cry from the Twins’ original asking price for their premier lefthander.
But it is more than just Cashman’s belief in Hughes that suddenly put the Yankees in full retreat after Hank Steinbrenner had sounded the “Charge!” on Santana. Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table - one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss - was based on money.
Once Andy Pettitte announced he was returning to the fold for $16 million, it meant the Yankees had committed $408.4 million this winter to retain six players. The acquisition of Santana would have meant tacking on another $125 million to that figure, and Cashman, who never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place, blanched at the prospect of adding another $20 million to a payroll that was already on the cusp of $200 million, again. In this respect, the timing of Pettitte’s decision to return - while initially seen as giving the Yankees additional leverage in their dealings with the Twins on Santana - actually gave Cashman the “out” he needed.
they had him ----- the twins were going to take maues and hilligoss instead of kennedy and this tuns out to be a money thing --what are you jokking?
Nope
Not Joking...I am in shock.
I feel kinda like Mel Gibson looked in Braveheart when he finds out underneath the armor is "Robert The Bruce" and he realizes he's just been totally f$#ked over and cannot believe his eyes.
Meanwhile the Tigers seems to have made a couple improvements eh?
If Hughes isn't in a Barn somewhere in Texas practicing his changeup that -(as yet)-DOES NOT EXIST...Boo Howdy I'm gonna be peeved.
Ps. I know Hughes is from California..I just imagine when pitchers practice pitches it must be in a Barn in Texas. I guess I watch too much television.
Cashman is on thin ice with me. This is horse$hit if true.
How he's gonna let $$$ become a problem after all the Carl's Kyle's and Kei's is an outrage.
Sometimes, the best deals are the ones you never make.
Hank got it exactly right when he said, "I'm not exactly crying over keeping Hughes and Cabrera."
The Yankees, right now, are set to start the 2008 regular season with the same team that *steamrolled* the rest of the AL during the second half of last year - - only they'll be a little younger and a lot healthier.
Yankees fans, good-bye .....
First of all, I want to state that we, Bostonians, are humble as the Pope but we also know and recognize that we have the best sports city in America and possibly the world. In other words, Boston is dominating pro-sports in a way a city never had. However, as a great philosopher once said, "a non-doer is very often a critic-that is, someone who sits back and observes doers, and then waxes philosophically about how the doers are doing. It is very easy to be a critic, but being a doer requires extra effort, risk, and change." Here's the "blueprint" of our domination:
/////Red Boston Sox\\\\\
Actual World Series Winner and a dynasty in the making.
Now having the best pitcher in baseball with Santana, the Sox will become a dynasty that the baseball world hasn't seen before. Poor Yankees, I almost feel bad for that pathetic organization. Why? becuase they will not able to even the playoffs, I'll give you 4 reasons: Angels, Tigers, Indians, Sox. Imagine all those bandwagoners that will jump outta the ship.
In this millennium, Boston 2, Yankees 0, nothing, nada, zero.
Here's a prediction: After 2011, Boston 5, Yankees 0, nothing, nada, zero.
/////PATRIOTS\\\\
4 rings in 6 years. An actual dynasty.
49rs Cowboys didn't dominate the game like the Pats are.
Here's what's going to happen (sorry Pats haters):
19-0 Undefeated and Superbowl Champions. Best Team Ever Assembled Award. MVP and Finals MVP for T. Brady.
///Celtics////
Best franchise in the NBA and its most successful. Contenders for this season's title.
The Big Three will bring the final trophy for Boston.
(Under Construction)
How many bat boys did Theo sleep with after the break up with Lucchino.
I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE WITH THE YANKEES.
PITCHING WILL EVENTUALLY BE FIXED WITH TIME.MY BIGGEST CONCERN AS A YANKEE FAN ARE LEFT FIELD,FIRST BASE AND DH.THESE POSITIONS ARE AGING AND THEIR PRODUCTIVITY IS NOT GOING TO WIN A WORLD SERIES.THE ORGANIZATION NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT WE DID NOT HAVE RUN PRODUCTION WITH THESE SAME PEOPLE THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND FIX THE PROBLEMS.
WITH YESTERDAY'S TRANSACTION IN DETROIT ONE HAS TO WONDER WHAT THEY SEE WITH THEIR TEAM AND MAKING CHANGES,AND WHY WE CAN'T TAKE THE SAME HONEST LOOK AND MAKE CHANGES TO HELP OUR CAUSE.
I WOULD LAST SAY IF WE HAVE THE TALENT IN THE MINORS THEN BY ALL MEANS LET'S GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO SHOW THEIR STUFF AND GET RID OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE WATCHING FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.
THANKS
BE
I hope all the folks who were against the trade for Santana and demanded that the Yanks rebuild, starting with "the 3 yutes" (a little My Cousin Vinny for ya), withhold all their boos and demands for firings and stuff like that if the Yanks miss the playoffs over the next couple of seasons. I don't see the Yanks finishing anywhere near Boston and I don't know that they can beat Detroit (unless their pitching collapses again); Angels etc.
This could be a long, humbling couple of years for us Yankee fans, but we've had a good run as fans and maybe it's time.
I hope by this time next year I'm proven totally wrong and we're some happy campers!
The sad part is I know Santana WANTS to be play for the Yanks more than any other team. Some of his teammates have said so. Look what happened when the last pitcher who really wanted to pitch for the Yanks settled for Boston (hint: bloody sock, big mouth).
I still have questions...
Why haven't we heard anything? Theo sounded frustrated last night on the evening news coverage. If its just that the Sox are negotiating with Santana, then we would have heard that, the market for information in Nashville is too efficient, i believe.
Why did the Yankees walk away giving their number one competition leverage?
Why has no other team stepped up for the best lefty in the game?
Why was word leaked out about the Angels? Incorrectly I might add as the Angels say they were never interested.
Why would the Twins take the choice of two sub par deals versus one very good (substantiated by others in baseball)?
Why are the Twins fans pissed? Their board sounds similar to ours.
Its just my opinion, but could this Twins GM and their FO be complete idiots, so much so, that most of baseball doesn't want to deal with them? I wouldn't be surprised if Santana pitches for the Twins on opening day 2008!
Madden is reporting that the Twins asked for Hughes, Melkey and two lesser prospects, and we said NO. If true, and who knows if it is true, that was an absolute no-brainer.
Jim A: I wasn't against the trade for Santana if it was within reason with players moved and his salary. But, I as you know have been a long time Yank fan from the middle 50's as bst as I can remember. I'm able to watch these young guys grow with the ups and downs. Apparently 75% of the fans agree, yes Boston is the lead franchise with their farm system and ability to draw from but it takes 25 guys in the dugout and a 40 man roster to win it all. Many things can happen to a team which knocks even the best team out of contention. Many guys on the Sox's had career years to win it all and quite convincingly but two years back to back it takes alot of talent and not just hopes for career years.
I truly don't expect the Sox's middle infielders of Lugo and Pedroia to add or egual this years feats of consistent and excellent baseball. Their pitching even with Santana has guys with 2 arms and 2 legs and put their pants on one leg at a time. I believe. keep the faith it will be a great ride.
I applaud Hank & Co. for their restraint. Can't wait to warch the young guys mesh with the vets and the philosophy of managing by Girardi.
Larry what the **** you been smoking.Lugo consistent and excellent baseball? You did say LUGO the sixth Sox SS in the last 5yrs. and the worst.The LUGO who hit 190 on the road.
Here's the trade that (according to Bill Madden) was on the table from the Twins:
Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss
Madden may be right, but he has, in the last couple of years been wrong more often than not:
1. Reported Joe Torre was fired after the loss to the Tigers last year
2. Reported that the Yankees had won the Dice-K bidding
3. Reported that the Yankees and Padres had completed a trade for Jake Peavy
4. Reported that Roger Clemens was signing with Boston
5. Reported that Joe Torre had accepted the Yankee contract offer.
Not speculated - REPORTED as fact.
Chip,
Daily News always has the most 'stories' but the least reliable. So it's a great place to keep up with rumor, but I always wait until the Times reports the same story to believe it, they have this old-fashioned requirements that reporters have a couple of independent sources if it's not coming straight out of the mouth of the head guy.
The interesting part of Madden's piece today, I thought, was this:
"Cashman is overly proctective of his prospects.
With his own contract expiring after next season, Cashman better have an idea as to where all those innings are going to come from and he'd better be right that Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy are the real deal.
Especially Hughes."
Cashman has received more praise for the 'youth movement' than for anything else he's done in more than a decade with NYY. With this deal (non-deal) he is being as going too far.
It will be interesting to see whether this view gains support.
Judging from some of our commenters here today it may.
Sorry, meant 'he is BEING PORTRAYED as going too far'.
I will say this. If it is true that Brian Cashman is the one who, in the end, quashed the deal then it takes a lot of guts on his part. Here's a guy, on the last year of his deal, who is willing to risk his job on the arms of three rookies. IN his place, the EASY move is to say, "screw the long term ramifications, I need to win NOW."
Another thing I found interesting in this morning's sports pages was a remark that Joel Sherman of the Post made in passing about Hughes -- that he has a questionable work ethic and more of an injury history at 21 than Santana has at 28.
The injury history has been commented on elsewhere but I had not been aware of concerns about Hughes's work ethic.
Joel Sherman often takes a somewhat twistedly cynical view but he is not usually as indifferent to facts as Madden, so I've been left -- not with a conclusion, with a significant question in my mind.
(This was just one of many issues Sherman mentioned in a general summary of why this was a trade that NYY should have made.)
Who wastes the most money?
Halliburton
Hugo Chavez
Yankees
?????????????????????????
Let's be efficient!
The Yanks have a few "problems" they need to fix, but the biggest by far is Hank. In regards to the Santana failure, (and it is a failure at this time), Hank doesn't know how to negotiate\horse trade, and he doesn't know how to work with people\ exec's from other teams. He completely insulted the Minn. front office with that "I won't be played\ultimatum" which made the Santana trade talks "personal". The Twinks know the Yanks made the best offer, but they really were torn on trading Santana at this time to begin with, and Hank basically helped make their choice very easy. This is why they have yet to accept any of the many offers Boston has made them. Hank and his obnoxious behavior have pushed them back to square 1. And to top it all off, yesterday Hank says something along the lines of "In the end, they negotiated in good faith". He butchers the negotiations, he insults the participants, he draws a line in the sand, and then he retreats. Unbelievable. Hank should be at these Winter Meetings listening, watching, and learning. But where is he? He's in Tampa "blowing off".
Jim A -
I'm with you on this.
Trading for a 28 year old Pitcher is not a bad deal
People forget the
WADE Taylor
J. Johnson days
when the team just knew they had the trio of youth and each one was a bust.
The issue I have with the team is the lack of positional players scouting or trade requests. Why was'nt some OF or 1b players reviewed and asked about. I would have explored the Idea of Miguel playing 1st base and possibly inquired about the Willis /Cabrera trade, SOme of you EXPERTS on here may have cried against willis but you know what ??YOU EXPERTS haven't won crap since 2000! The Yankees should have inquired about this I mean two stars under 26 years old would have been great and they would have been reunited with Joe Girardi.
As for the Santana trade I would have done it plain and simple. Why ? Because if you think this year is fragile with the rotation guess what next year is going to be. What your going to beg Andy to come back???? at 36 - going on 37?
Resign Moose ????????? yeah right!
so who is going to be on your staff?? more rookies ?
What if the existing rooks do not pan out this year add that to the 09 dilema and you have LARGE problems walking into the NEw staduim . Johan should have been in stripes. Hank backed off due to the in fighting over trading and BC non approval , which makes this thing fragile. having a OK GM and a rookie owner. the GM may have gathered the prospects but he has not assembled a proper squad.
People state on how this team rallied in the second half
ok True but lets not forget
1. the same heros in the second half was f**k up's in the 1st
might as well tell Bobby A don't report until june
Bomber,
Nice!
Joel Sherman may have undercut any chance at all the Yanks had of obtaining Santana by questioning Hughes' work ethic. We all know people only remember the bad stuff they read and that story has already been quoted to me by 3 people at work, and they don't even like the Yanks!
Pettitte is talking about pitching in 2009 because he'd like to pitch in the new stadium so think about this rotation for two years:
Santana
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Kennedy
That would have been not only nice, but extremely competitive.
I admire for Cashman for not panicking and changing his game plan when Santana became available. I also think Cashman could be gone by July if Joba and Hughes don't pitch well.
BRONX BOMBER-
The Cabrea\1B idea has merit, but I want nothing to do with Willis. He will be fine the 1st time facing teams, but after that it's "gas can city". I get the feeling that Detroit was forced to take Willis if they wanted Cabrera. Willis has fallen off radically the last 2 years. In the AL it will be even worse.
Actually, Bomber, although only Jeter, Posada and Rodriguez played superbly early in the season, the real problem was not f**kups but injuries to 60 percent of the starting rotation, as I remember it, the resulting dependence on rookies and overuse of the bullpen, and the demand that the hitters be 'enough' to make up for the all-around pitching disaster.
I'm sure Cashman and Co. had the benefit of Girardi's opinions on Willis during their planning.
Girardi has publicly praised Cabrera and said he would be glad to have him as a player. Would he have wanted to be re-united with Willis? I don't know, but I'm sure Cashman does...
The problem I have with questioning Hughes' injury history/work ethic is that a lot of it isn't left up to him. He was so protected in the minors that if he stubbed his toe he was told to shut it down for a week. Unlike Pavano, who voluntarily put himself on the DL, Hughes was not given a choice in the decision.
As far as Roy's comments about Hank go: Does he talk too much, sure. But in the end, if the Twins wanted the deal that was on the table from the Yankees they would have taken it regardless.
Anon: I made my comments about Lugo and Pedroia because they were solid defensively which is needed to win championships plus timely hits were extraordinary during the season. Long story short as good of a team as the Sox's have they beat us out of the division by 2 games with all our issues. They had theirs Manny and Ortiz injuries. Players make great plays or have good season's for a team to win it all. My thoughts it very rarely happens two years in a row especially guys of Lugo and Pedroia's history. But I never smoked the legal or illegal stuff but have seen my fair share of it all. If you want to talk about an Italian Chianti an being a little light headed then you have me .
CHIP-
There was great division in the Twins front office over whether to trade Santana now, or at the trade deadline\July 31. Hank made that choice very easy. The Yankee stance regarding Vizcaino asking for too much money is a concern. What are the Yanks gonna do, plug another rookie in there? I don't want to hear any more of this "money is not a concern with the Yanks" stuff. The H\H regime retained the "Heroes of Lore", but have yet to spend any big money other than those PR moves. Hank can "blow off" all he wants about "building another dynasty", but the affect on the bottom line regarding "home growns" is the real motivation here. Passing on Santana is proof positive.
Either Cashman is showing a lot of guts or the Yankees know something about Santana that the Red Sox don't. Moving into their new park they need to field the best team possible and apparently they feel Hughes is a better fit than Santana. To say it's about money is laughable.
With all of the doom and gloom that I'm reading here, Major league baseball should forget about playing the season in the AL and just put Boston, Anaheim, Cleveland and Detroit in the playoffs right now.
The Yanks can take a summer vacation to the Caribbean and work on their tans.
Man, I picked the wrong 2 days to step away from the blog
I'll NEVER catch up with all of these trade for Santana/don't trade for Santana... Hughes is garbage/Hughes is an ace... Cashman has guts/Cashman is a p*ssy threads
Better sit back for a thread or two and catch up. It's kind of like slowing down at the ramp before getting onto the highway
I for one am glad that Hank Steinbrenner exists.
It's nice to have a Steinbrenner that walks, talks and makes big proclamations to the media instead of the statements from a silent George/Weekend at Bernies situation that we've had for the last few years.
If the Red Sox somehow get Santana and keep Ellsbury AND Buchholz... there should be a senate inquiry
The middle of the Tigers line up... Ordonez, Cabrera, Sheffield...
Throw in Pudge, Renteria, Granderson and Guillen
Jeez!
And Willis usually goes good year bad year good year bad year
If the Indians don't fall back and somehow either the Mariners improve or the A's hold their cards... this could be a wide open Wild Card as well
Screw all of this!
Start the season already!
John G.,
My thought exactly!
Why even suit up?
Larry then you must of been in the cups because Lugo was average defensively, Pedroia above average, Lowell was not as good as in previous years and Youk was solid. By the way were you on the job?
Uh....I think Mike Lowell had an outstanding year defensively, didn't he?
Great idea, John G. But who gets the Wildcard? The Tigers or Tribe?
Before everyone concedes the ALCS to Detroit and Boston, some things to consider:
The Yankees lineup has been great top to bottom for the past 5 years- how many titles have they won?- zero
The Braves had Smoltz Maddux and Glavine for over a decade- how many titles?- 1
The A's had Mulder, Hudson and Zito for 4 or 5 years- zero titles
And remember when the Mets got greedy and got Frank Viola to go with Cone and Gooden. Yup, no titles.
Play the games on the field. Santana is just as likely to cough it up in October as Wang did. If the Red Sox get him, it guarantees nothing. Just like it would have guaranteed nothing for the Yankees.
Sully,
To summarize events on the blog during your absence:
People were suicidal or enraged, according to temperament, over the coming loss of Hughes for the negligible gain of Santana.
Then people became enraged or suicidal, according to temperament, over the failure to obtain Santana at the negligible cost of Hughes.
That brings you up to date.
But to find where you were mentioned by name (in caps yet), you will have to trudge through the sludge...
Just the Facts --
If it was just Hughes we would be parting with then I would agree with you. But the Yanks would have to part with Melky, and then go out and sign a center fielder which may not be the way they want to go. They also have to give up either Kennedy and/or prospects we are going to need to help solve our future outfield concerns.
And John G.....
Our offense has not changed at all, and we still have the potential to hit like we did the 2nd half of the year. Which by the way we were the best offense in baseball the 2nd half of the season.
If anything we will have a upgraded pitching staff going into next year because of Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy. Remember these guys were only with us for a limited time last year and they showed a lot of promise.
Even if the Red Sox acquire Santana they will still have some offesenive concerns and bullpen concerns.
I am also not sold on Cleveland doing what they did this year again. They have made no changes to their team and to think Carmona and CC are going to have career years again is ludacris.
John G: and Marianne sad how many fans play the game on paper with stats in hand. Your right I will not renew my directv subscription for extra innings plus. I'll miss Hughes beating the sox's at Fenway in a thriller with the old man called Mo coming in and getting the side out in order. From what I have read it will never happen.
Anon: Yes!
Mac,
I was being sarcastic. I probably shouldn't have written that because I know that some of the folks on here are just venting.
Boss,
Detroit and Cleveland have to settle the division with pistols at 10 paces.
CS07,
Completely agree with you Bro.
Let's just see what happens when the games count.
Larry M. and John G., if this plan flies we're going to have may 500 hours of spare time during the regular season, counting just the games, without pre-games, post-games, travel time, etc.
The Grillmeister is already beginning to wonder whether having that much more of my time and attention is going to be a bane or a blessing.
John G. and Larry M, I meant 'maybe 500 hours'.
Why can't I ever see my typos till they're up on the board???
I remember Wade Taylor and J. Johnson. There was a third guy as well, wasn't there? They all three fizzled out pretty quick. I remember Johnson being touted almost as highly as Oscar Azocar.
The Tiger trade was certainly a blockbuster, but the reason they failed to even approach their "06" success was due to the injury to Zumaya = no "bridge". Willis is gonna hurt, much more than help. Toronto is a greater concern than Detroit.
Me to Larry.
Marianne,
Isn't The Grillmeister sitting right there with you watching the games?
Without knowing you except for in the blog, I'll go out on a limb and say it's a blessing. :-)
Larry,
Good point! I won't renew my MLB package either. I'll save 159 bucks that i can go out and spend on some really good wine. I'll watch the D'backs on TV for free for a baseball fix.
Man, I feel better already.
Who says that there's no Santa Claus?
Better yet, I'll spend the summer at the bowling alley.
Why thank you John G.!
The Grillmeister and I have an agreement about sports. I watch almost all the Yankees games and he watches with me as much as he likes but uses some of my baseball time as his 'guy time' with his buddies.
He on the other hand watches all the more thuggish sports he likes, with or without my watching at his side -- and even has those same buddies over to revel in thuggishness, while I use some of that for 'gal time' with my chums.
Shame to upset the balance.
I may have to insist that the Yankees play those games after all.
For what it is worth - Buster Olney believes the odds are now pretty good that Santana does NOT get traded anywhere:
If the Twins keep Johan Santana and try to win in 2008, they will two draft picks in compensation after he leaves as a free agent. The questions, then, that they are probably asking themselves is this:
Is there a major difference in value between what the Boston Red Sox are offering, in a package of Jon Lester and prospects, and what we could get in the two draft picks? Is that difference worth absorbing the backlash we are going to get for trading the future Hall of Famer?
And for now, the answers are no. An executive familiar with the talks said early Wednesday morning that he wouldn't be surprised if the Twins decide to keep Santana. "They're really in a tough position," said the executive.
Unless the Twins get exactly what they feel is the needed value for Santana, they should keep him, try to win in 2008, and let him be the heavy and walk away, and take the draft picks. It's a lot easier to explain to your casual fans that you are trying to win in the forthcoming season than it is to rationalize for them why you traded a superstar for three guys that only hardcore baseball fans know much about.
McCarthy I don't believe Melky will be the CF when the team moves into the new park.The latest asking price did not include Kennedy and the prospects were 2nd tier.
But not if it's going to cut into your bowling time.
It would be nice if Olney was right.
Gives NYY another bite at the apple when Santana does walk.
You are quite welcome Marianne. I'm lucky also. My beautiful wife of 22 years likes to watch the games with me. The only difference between us is she doesn't sulk around the house all night like i do when the Yanks lose.
Even though it looks like we're not getting a proven ace like Santana, I for one, am happy that the Yanks aren't mortgaging the future to pull it off.
Also, with Girardi at the helm now, I have a feeling that the bullpen will be handled a "little differently" and those guys will not get worn down.
I'm just saying it's nice to have a farm system someone notices, for once. The only people who made noise about Columbus back in George's day were George and Stump (or Bucky) and whoever the flunky GM was. After a while, no one believed anything they said. So we'd hear all this junk about Maas and Meulens and Azocar and Johnson and Taylor and Pat Kelly and Bobby Meacham, etc. They'd come up and whiff. Meanwhile, back in the pennant races: Drabek, McGregor, Leiter, McGriff, Rijo, this could go on for a while. . .
So now that there's actually some talent on the farm that somebody--everybody, apparently--is interested in, I think we might be careful what we wish for. I was spoiled when I first became a fan in the 70's by all that great, exciting team. It never dawned on me that they wouldn't contend every year. It never occurred to me when I saw my first WS game in '81 (game 2 vs. Dodgers) that I'd have to wait another 15 years for them to get back. 18 years is a long f***ing time to wait for anything in this life; and that wait was wholly a function of George's impatience and poor management, I don't care how many people he found to blame it on. The only reason it ended was because of Howie Spira.
Cash is providing some sanity and fiscal restraint. I'd love to have Santana. I'd hate to see him in a Sox uniform. But I'd rather miss out on 2008 than sell the future of the franchise just to keep up for one season. That's a losing proposition that becomes an addiction very quickly. Just ask George.
The Tigers now have the best 1-9 lineup in baseball.
Granderson, Polanco, Magglio, Cabrera, Sheffield, Guillen, Pudge, Renteria, and Jones. With a very good bench as well.
Going by the stats for these players in 2007 these 9 players would account for 817 Runs, 1521 Hits, 762 RBI's, an average OBP of .370 and batting avg of .309.
That is gross. Considering Cabrera is going to get many more chances to drive in runs and Sheffield was hurt for half the season last year. Granderson is also only going to get better.
The only offense that compares to this is the Yanks.
Diane, what's funny about the possibility of Santana going back to the Twins for one more year is that the two teams probably most annoyed about it are the Indians and Padres. Both were hoping to negotiate deals with their pitchers (Sabathia and Peavy) and Peavy in fact is close to a 3 year $52 mil deal (that can be as much as 4 years $70 mil based on a team option) but both pitchers are holding off to see how much Santana gets. If Santana enters the market, they will likely follow suit and benefit from a bidding war between the teams that don't get Johan.
That's great exciting "talent" or just great "team". Your choice. Gotta stop writing essays. Sorry.
McCarthy,
There's also word that the Tigers might move Cabrera to LF and keep Inge at 3b - making them better defensively than they would be with Miggy at 3b. I'm telling you, between that lineup, and a rotation of Verlander, Rogers, Bonderman, Willis, Robertson with Porcello and Tata in the wings - that's as scary as it gets.
When did Pohlad ever care about the Twins fans? He gets the taxpayers to fund a new stadium and then lets Hunter walk and puts Santana and Nathan on the block.
Buster was on ESPN Radio yesterday and was asked this Q by Brandon Tierney ... "Who would you rather have on your team in 3 years: Haren, Hughes or Lester?"
Here's what Buster said (paraphrased of course) ... Wow, 3 years, huh? Great question. In my mind Haren is definitely the better pitcher in the next 2 years but in the 3rd year? Wow ... I'd have to say Hughes. I think he'll be an absolute stud. I love Haren though and the kid has a great make-up. Beane said he's an absolute workhorse and competitor. Here's a great story from Beane about Haren in the minors ... Haren gives up a colossal HR and the guy that hits it poses at home plate before going into his trot. All the way around the bases Haren stares the guy down and yells at him. Next time the batter comes up Haren "muscles up" and throws 3 straight heaters past the guy (ala Ricky Vaughn in "Major Leagues"). Then Haren lifts his leg up and pretends the guy is a fire hydrant and proceeds to imitate a dog peeing on him."
I thought that was a funny story ... bottom line, Lester didn't get a single mention in his entire answer. So, Haren is a workhorse/competitor/stud that will be awesome the next 2 years but long term potential is there for Hughes to be a major difference maker on the mound!!!
Chip -
Yeah they have some options with Cabrera....Since they have Jones now for LF I would stray away from that though and use Cabrera at 1st.
Guillen can play LF or 3rd base. Inge can still be put at 3rd as well.
They have are going to be very dangerous.
Agreed, Just Facts. I'd be pretty peeved if I were a Twinkie fan right now. I think we'd probably be hearing more complaints, except it's Vikes season. Plus, they're darned nice folks, and it's too cold to bitch.
Diane, like your assessment of the papers. I'm sensing a journalism background. Do you think the Times makes the sports reporters stick to the 3 source rule? For my money--and this no diss on Kat, or anyone else for that matter--Buster Olney was the best pure baseball writer we've had in this town in about 15 years.
All it takes is the Twins to call up the Yanks and get their offer from before back on the table.
Hughes, Melky and 1 or 2 two tier prospects is better then any of the Sox offers that do not have Elsbury + Lester/Bucholz.
I could see this happening very easily.
If someone Melky does stay with the Yanks he would make a perfect replacement in Right Field for 2009. He is only getting better at the plate and right field would be much easier for him to patrol and give him more chances to show up his arm.
Chip,
The annoyance at the Yankees', Sox's and Twins' FO's if all this turmoil turns out to have been for nothing will be widespread, but I think you're right, other teams that were making their plans for the future based on this deal may be among the most annoyed!
Only clear winners so far -- the ink-stained wretches!
They've been able to churn out many a column inch under by-line thanks to this perfect little off-season storm.
Gammons now also reporting that the word is that the Twins are keeping Santana for 2008
Yanks should take a run at Andruw Jones. With or without Melky getting traded we all know either Damon or Matsui (or both) will be injured at some point next year. Melky is still best suited to be a 4th OF who can spell all 3 spots.
As for Jones ... he is NOT getting a big deal from ANYONE off the year he just had. He needs to rebuild his value. Yanks should offer 2 years and $30 mill and here's why he should take that:
1) he'll be only 32 in 2 years and if he performs he'll be in line for a nice contract (Hunter just went 5/$90 so Jones would get same or more possibly)
2) he hits between Arod and Jorge for 2 years ... can you say steady diet of fastballs???? If that can't get him untracked then nothing will.
3) if he doesn't rebound offensively, he still is a stellar glove guy and could easily get a 5 year $50 mill contract in 2 years based solely on his glove work and his HR potential (not a bad pay day still)
4) he gets to close out "old" Yankee Stadium and open up "new" Yankee Stadium (call me stupid but if you were a player wouldn't that be somewhat appealing to you?)
5) he still makes $15 mill per for 2 years so it's not like he'll be standing in line at a NY soup kitchen
6) Boras should throw us a friggin bone b/c Yanks DID step up and reward Arod pretty well (but this is just wishful thinking cause Boras is a vampire and vampires have no emotions)
Anyway, this seems to solve 2 problems ... gets us more offense (good), gets us a "real" CF (good), allows Melky to be traded or be a 4th OF (good), allows rest for Damon/Matsui (good), allows Jones to repair his value and still make good money while doing it (good).
Any faults with this theory????
DC,
Very limited youthful journo fling a long time ago.
Total agreement on Buster. He was the best Yankees beat writer in too many years for me to remember! I was so sorry to see him move on to ESPN where I don't think he's been as good. Pure reporting was his forte. Opining on air he's not nearly as impressive. His written columns are not bad but give me his pure reporting any day.
By the way, I think Kat is also at her best as a reporter -- clear, observant, objective, well structured... I think she's a talent to watch in that line.
Marianne and John G; my wife watches maybe 3 games a year. I took her to the stadium when we were first dating. It was a beautiful Sunday doubleheader against the Twins I had mezz. box seats down the left field foul line. Just near the corner by 296' sign. Watching two games in one day may have made such a negative impact on her that watching sports is the last thing that she'll do but we're coming up on our 38th married young but I guess my love for the game and the Yankees was not enough to scare her away.
I guess I'll still sip the wine and order my DirectV even though the experts say we have no chance.
DC,
Forgot to add, I think the Times will go with two sources if they are independent of one another, but I'm sure there are others here with better info on that.
The history of power pitchers approaching 30 getting long term big money contracts is not good.
Sox will not pay for 2 $100 mil pitchers.
If they do I expect to see the old 'best team money could buy' comments that were directed at the Yanks for years. that would take writers with guts though..
The AL will be tough and the Wild Card is no longer a guaranteed option for who ever comes in second in the AL East... should be fun in 2008.
Who ever comes out of the AL will walk over the NL WS team.. including the muts
Agreed. I check his blog pretty regularly, but it doesn't really flatter his talents, I don't think. He's better in the field. Plus, he came off as a much better writer when he was at the Times---stricter standards, or maybe they don't have copy editors in Bristol?
Larry,
38 years? WOW! I feel like a rook compared to you. LOL
I don't care what the "experts" say! Remember last season when they said that the Yanks weren't going to the post season?
If Joe Nathan is still being shopped, I'd like to see the Yanks try and get him.
He would be a great 8th inning guy for Mo.
I was joking about the source thing. I doubt they worry too much about it in the sports section, though I'm sure the reporters are quite conscientious. Also depends on the story. Hot stove is one thing. HGH is a whole other matter--to state the obvious.
Joel Sherman makes great points, and I just want to go on record now that not making this Santana trade is a HUGE mistake for Cashman. There is no guarantee that ANY of these kids is going to even be a good ML SP or not get injured. Santana is young, LH, a PROVEN commodity, and the best SP in the AL. Throwing in Kennedy as the 3rd player is really no big deal. Santana is a HOF player in his PRIME. And, I thought it was all about pitching??? Well, he is the BEST SP in the league!!!
Also, a question for BC. We all know the Yankees are going to baby these kids along and watch their innings, etc. We also know that Mussina is likely to break down somewhere along the way due to age. So, Brian, just where do you plan to get the innings needed from SP to get through the 2008 season????? Please explain.
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
There already has been one blockbuster at the winter meetings. What will happen on the third day in Nashville? This is what're hearing.
12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.
• The Blue Jays are not going to trade A.J. Burnett, Alex Rios or Troy Glaus -- for now. Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi will probably head home today.
11:22 a.m, from Jerry Crasnick
• With the Twins in search of middle-infield help, one potential target is free agent David Eckstein. "I've always had a lot of respect for him," said Minnesota manager Ron Gardenhire. "He catches the ball. He knows how to play. He's a proven winner."
10:23 a.m., from Buster Olney
• Trade talks between the Indians and Pirates involving outfielder Jason Bay, left-handed starter Cliff Lee and others are dead.
Another point concerning finances and the trade market. After this year, many contracts come off the books, so the budget will come back down to earth.
Pavano, Mussina, Giambi, Abreu, Farnsworthless, etc. will all be gone.
Rick, I think Girardi hinted pretty strongly at the answer to that in the interview above, without coming out and stating they were planning on a sort of modified six-man thing.
New thread alert, hope it's as good as this one.
The Yanks lose a lot of team payroll after "08", so they will spend "some" of that a year from now. Currently, forget it. Now that the PR retaining of Posada, etc. is complete, this organization is gonna "squeek" like never before. Once the contract of Cashman\Tiny Tim expires, he is done. No way Hank Scrooge is gonna pay him the money or respect required to retain him.
Rick the Twins were willing to take Hughes,Melky and 2nd tier prospects Hilligress and Marquez and the Yankees still said no. The more time went on the more they decided that they didn't want to make this trade. Give Cash credit he could of played it safe and taken the proven commodity instead he stuck his neck out and stayed with the kids.
I cut and pasted this paragraph from the Tyler Clippard article in today's NY Daily News:
CALLING ON KYLE: Just as Cashman did on Monday, Girardi gave his vote of confidence to Kyle Farnsworth as one of the Yankees' primary setup men. Girardi caught Farnsworth in 2000-02, so he knows the erratic reliever very well.
"I know Kyle's personality and I kind of know what makes Kyle tick from being 61 feet apart on a lot of days," Girardi said. "I'll use the things I know about Kyle to instill confidence and motivate him."
If Girardi can pull this one off, the Yanks may have a stronger pen than they think.
So the Tigers have this year's version of Murder's Row. Very nice. How soon we forget what happened to the Yankees 2006 version of Murder's Row. They were beaten mercilessly by none other than the TIGERS -- with a bunch of kids in the lineup no less. Let that be a lesson for our kids when facing the Big Bad Lineup that the Tigers have put together after depleting their farm system. This gives the Tigers two years to win the World Series with their Big Bad Selves -- or BUST with no replacements from within. Bring them on.
Diane Injuries affected many teams
Poor play and Inconsistancy hurt this team. Even Hughes was unrelaible after his first start. so what happened the Physical trainer was fired.
Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreau should have been traded pure and simple there inconsistantcy HURT the team damons # improved with a stint in LF for a quarter of the season that is not enough nor is it REALIABLE! Bobby Abreau stunk until August . trade options should HAVE BEEN EXPLORED to the fullest but it was'nt
Dontrell willis is a 24 year old pitcher enough said . if you give up on him then a Hughes has not shot. he could have failed for various reasons the bottom line is he is a INNING EATER and a TWENTY FOUR YEARS OLD add to the equation Detroits spaceous staduim and you have a winner the thrill of playing for a playoff bound team would do wonders.
While the Sox and tigers is battling it out next season the EXPERTS on here will be talking about retaining andy pettite who at this point next season will not be answering his phone
the above was me
ANNON.
The tigers lineup is years younger than the Yankees
The rotation had to be beaten up before it received credit. is yankees fans willing to go through what detroit fans had to go through?
Willis is a pitcher who gave up over 5 runs per game in the NL and Cabrera will find it much harder to hit AL pitching even if he does get in shape. A fat lazy slob at age 24 what will he be like at 28.
With all of the doom and gloom that I'm reading here, Major league baseball should forget about playing the season in the AL and just put Boston, Anaheim, Cleveland and Detroit in the playoffs right now.
The Yanks can take a summer vacation to the Caribbean and work on their tans.
==============================================
the team did just that last season.
If we repeat our start from last year the margain of gain would be harder to acheive due to other teams structuring their squads.
i can hear it now a thousand excuses for a poor start
"Well they are only rookies "
they are not used to this
Hughes is still hurting Blah blah
while in the meanwhile Boston has a 10 game lead and Detroit and Clev have the Wildcard locked down
and the Twins are in it with Johan and Fransisco.
the only benefit with Johan staying is that Detroits lineup will maul him and make his FA price lowered
i read posts about having patience and waiting fo the kids. I became a fan duing the late 80s early 90s so I know what the team can become with a sticly win-now attitude, but the last poposed deal doesnt kill the farm system - it would still be very deep with a lot of great arms in A ball and soon to move up.
Take into consideration that Jeter is not a young buck anymoe and Posada and Rivera have maybe 3 good years left in them. There is a considerable investment in them which in my opinion is a waste because the Yankees are vey clearly the 5th best team in the AL and way behind the Red Sox and for that matter the Indians and a healthy Tigers team.
If Hughes, Melky, Marquez and Hilligoss - one stud, a fourth outfielder and two guys who will never significantly contribute to this team - was really on the table and Cashman "advised" Hank not to take it then he should be fired. Hey he has 1 year left on his deal - maybe he is angling for a job in Boston next year
My biggest question is where are all these kids on the farm going to play - maybe cashman is looking to build a stong team for September???
I have neve been a fan of cashman and for those of you who may remember when I fist began blogging many of my posts were Anti-Cashman. This just adds to the bunch. If it is an issue of giving up Hughes than that is just bad managment. Sanatana is a future hall of famer in his prime. Hughes has potential, but so did Eric Milton, Drew Henson, Russ Davis, Ruben Rivera, and RickyLedee. At some time or another all were "untouchables".
Even if Hughes reaches his potential it is doubtful that he will ever be Santana.
If this is about age - Santana is 28 - not 38 and we had no problem giving an old Petitte 16 million.
I am heaing that this is about money and yet they just gave Posada and Rivera contacts well above their worth. If Cashman wanted to make a statement about the Yanks getting more payoll flexibility than he should have had the guts to let them walk away rather than the one player who will could drastically shift the balance of power in the Yankees favor for the near future.
Aces VERY VERY RARELY become available. The last one was Beckett and look at how that effected the AL. Before him there was Schilling and Pedro in his prime. When you have the ability to get one - you go get one.
As far as this roster flexibility surely not having Pavano, Mussina, and Farnswoth on this roster may have affected their "payroll flexibility".
The fact is that he has made so many stupid acquisitions that he has become gun-shy. I just dont buy into the payoll argument with the new stadium (no revenue shaing), and the loss of all the albatoss contracts next season. Lets see how Brian spends that 25 million that he would have spent on Johan - maybe a washed up pitcher (an extension to Moose again?) and a rightfielder. Suely they will be more valuable than a guy who would win 20-23 games as a Yankee for the next 5 years