On the Yankees beat

Now I can call Steinbrenner all those nasty names that I have wanted to call him!

I think Torre made a mistake. What other job in MLB is going to pay 5mil and give you chance to make up to 8mil. All the accolades he gets for winning the WS is deserved but so is the criticism for not winning. The job is manage the Yankees to WS victory not loose in 1st round of playoffs. And I understand its a tough thing to go through where its a failure if you dont win the WS but for 7mil a yr (3mil above the next mgr)you just deal with it.

I'm betting this is nothing but a smokescreen to protect the image of the Yankees. They probably flew Torre to Florida to ask how much money they would have to pay him to pretend he had been offered a contract and turn it down. Good luck to the next Manager with all those personalities to balance.....

Did you see Randy Levine's comment about the "need to go to a performance-based model.....We just think it's important to motivate people."

I hardly think Torre is the perfect manager, but he never struck me as someone that was unmotivated. As if the suits in Tampa were going to light a fire under him with a low-ball offer. Clearly this contract was designed to be turned-down.

Can't believe the idiots in charge actually offered him a contract!!! Thank the Lord he turned it down!!!!!

And yes, JT is an UNMOTIVATING type of personality. This team of world class UNDERACHIEVERS need an ass kicking manager, not a coddling old grandpa.

Form follows Function. Now let's get the style of manager in here that this team needs.

It's Arod Fault Why Joe let go by Yankees...... He's probably smirking in California with his agent Scott Boras.. Arod's grandmaster plan with Former Yankees Manager Buck Showalter. Do you believe in conspiracy theories? I believe Arod not producing in the playoffs, He wants Joe out as manager of the Yankees. Arod who has great numbers in the postseason with Mariners suddenly stunk since with Yankees. I believe Arod's not trying and giving 100% in the postseason.

It's Arod Fault Why Joe let go by Yankees...... He's probably smirking in California with his agent Scott Boras.. Arod's grandmaster plan with Former Yankees Manager Buck Showalter. Do you believe in conspiracy theories? I believe Arod not producing in the playoffs, He wants Joe out as manager of the Yankees for payback when Clemens beaned Arod in the postseason back then. Arod who has great numbers in the postseason with Mariners suddenly stunk since He was traded with Yankees. I believe Arod's not trying and giving his 100% in the postseason.

Ok- I am avaialable

he will be back i have a feeling this is not over

Thank you for the 12 amazing years, Joe. You are a class act and provided a stabilizing force when the team really needed one.

As for who will be the next Yankee manager... I have a question. The names I've heard (Mattingly, Girardi, LaRussa, Valentine, Pena) do not include 3rd base coach Larry Bowa. If you were going to bring in a fiery guy like Girardi or Valentine, why is Bowa not a candidate?

I have a strong feeling that now Buck Sholwalter will be in strong consideration.

A. he is behind this clev team

B. Talent

C. the NY Yankees is home

something BC and Gene Michael said is making me review this possibility

hey

If you are truly and Yankee fan then you must side with Joe and his decision to decline this offer. Considering all the injuries this year and the rotation he had, this may have been his BEST year as the skipper. for 12 glorious years, Joe has given us 4 WS and 12 straight playoff appearences. Hasn't his loyalty earned him at the very least a 2 year deal?? This offer was a slap in his face. Yankee brass wanted him to decline. I believe this is the start of very bad things to come. Say good bye to Jorge, MO & A-Rod. I ask you all...Name a better canadate...Please...Donnie..No..too Young..Has never Managed...Girardi..PLayed with half the team...time isn't right...Larusso..going to stay with the Cards...who's left?? Yogi??

Watching the game. Thought it might have been cancelled, it was almost completely ignored on the sports shows, but no, that unpleasant little toad Becket is out there with his dead mouse on his chin.

Becket is a punk

MARIANNE!!!

LOL!!

WELL DONE.

I agree with your toad comparison and the repulsive choice in facial hair. DISGUSTING.

And the fact that he carefully maintains such a look makes it even more embarrassing.

Not that he can help this but seriously. His cheeks are that of a person 200 pounds heavier.

His face is obese yet the rest of him is normal.

Weird looking dude for sure.

But I'd adopt the poor ugly lad for our rotation without blinking an eye.

True, Michael, but he'd have to leave the dead mouse behind.

The RS seem to hire for that chubby-cheeked look. What can it possibly mean? When I first saw Papelbon I thought he looked like a petulant squirrel, but later on I took a liking to a squirrel and decided I had been wrong.

No, no, no to Buck Showalter, though I too back in 1995 wanted the Yanks to keep both he and Mike Stanley berry berry much.

As I wanted Gagne this year ... but I was wrong ... yet again!

Showalter, like LaRuss,a is arrogant and is considered to act like he invented the game, like a Marianne with less facial hair or a Michael who is not "The Devil."

We should hire Girardi.

Papelface is just going thru his awkward stage...

In a few years he'll be able to drive himself to the ballpark, stay out past curfew, and maybe even pitch on BACK TO BACK DAYS!!!

Gitmo,

First, most of your residents were handed over from Western Pakistan for bounties and cash and they simply had nothing to do with any kind of pseudo-soldiering.

Second, ever see Bowa take out a pitcher with the Phillies? Storming to the mound with that stupid body language like Al Gore vs. The Retard in the 2000 debates?

The Phillies HATED HIM!!!!

He should NEVER be allowed to manage the team. He showed up every pitcher he took out. Granted they sucked. But you need some tact as a manager, especially with the Hughes Your Daddy Sized Egos!!!

End of Torre Era Is Shame for All

By TIM MARCHMAN

http://www.nysun.com/article/64861?page_no=1

[quote]
If there was one key to Joe Torre's success over the 12 years he spent with the Yankees, it was that he was honorable. When the team won he gave others the credit, and when they lost he took the blame. This is why he was respected. Anyone could have won with the talent he was given, but under Torre, the Yankees won — and lost — graciously.

This makes the squalid end of Torre's tenure all the sadder. Today, the Yankees announced that Torre had declined the team's offer to return as manager next year. They also announced the terms of the offer, which the team clearly did not expect him to accept. He was offered a 23% pay cut in the form of a one-year, $5 million contract, with incentives that would have paid him up to $3 million and guaranteed an $8 million salary for 2009 if the team won the pennant.

"We just think it's important to motivate people," said Randy Levine, the team's president, who apparently believes that the reason Torre hasn't won a World Series since 2000 is that he hasn't been motivated.

The honorable thing to do, when you want to fire someone, is to fire them. Torre is a grown man who's been in baseball for 47 years. He would not have jumped off a bridge had the Yankees told him they didn't want him back. Nor would the team's fans have been unable to accept that the Yankees had decided the time for change had come. Making an insulting offer and then pointing out how wonderful it is, as Levine did when he noted that under the contract Torre would have remained the highest-paid manager in baseball, is a rather inept way to pretend you haven't sacked someone.

It is, of course, possible that this offer was tendered in full sincerity; if that's true, though, the Yankees are being run by morons. Since the Yankees are not in fact run by morons, the only conclusion to draw is that they're being run by people willing to behave dishonorably. This is a shame for Torre, who deserved to be treated with more respect. It's also a shame for fans.

Common decency is something the public has come to expect from the Yankees over the past 12 years, but it isn't something anyone should take as a given. George Steinbrenner may be thought of these days as a charming rogue, but he's also the same man who pleaded guilty to the serious crime of making illegal campaign contributions to Richard Nixon and paid a gambler tens of thousands of dollars to spy on one of his own star players. Yankeeland was a tyranny, ruled over by sentimentality and impetuous whims, and the chaos brought disaster down on the team, which went 18 years without winning a World Series before Torre's arrival, by far the longest stretch in team history.

All those years, though, the problem wasn't Steinbrenner's boorishness. That was just a symptom of the real disease, which was the chaos. By trading prospects, signing star players and then demanding someone get rid of them, and changing managers mid-season more often than not, the unpredictable owner made it impossible for anyone to put a long-term plan in place, because no one could be sure they would be allowed to see it through. This culminated in the dark years of 1989 to 1992, the only time in team history when they lost more than they won four years in a row.

The sad handling of Torre's firing isn't just a throwback to the past in its weird indecency, but in the way that indecency was inevitable result of a structural problem. In the past, that was Steinbrenner's capriciousness. Today, it's that no one is clearly in charge.

It was just this year that the man widely thought to be Steinbrenner's appointed heir, son in law Steve Swindal, was thrust out into the cold after his wife filed for divorce. This led to the elevation to power of Steinbrenner's sons Hank and Hal, announced this past weekend. Having two men atop one hierarchy is bad enough, and having two men who weren't groomed to be atop it is worse. Account for the independent power base general manager Brian Cashman has built up over the past few years and the presence of old school Steinbrenner retainers, and every decision the team makes is of course going to be contested and treated as another theater in an ongoing proxy war.

None of this reflects badly on anyone involved. It's what happens in any bureaucracy that lacks clear lines of authority. Still, firing someone by offering them an insulting contract is exactly what you'd expect from a bureaucracy that doesn't know how to, and perhaps can't, make up its own mind.

This isn't a time for the Yankees to be dealing with this kind of disorder. The team needs a new manager, it needs to decide on whether or not to offer Alex Rodriguez a new contract so good he'll forego his right to hear other team's offers, it needs to negotiate with Mariano Rivera and Jorge Posada, and it needs to decide whether trusting 60% of the team's starts to Philip Hughes, Ian Kennedy, and Joba Chamberlain is really a good idea. Any one of these would be challenge enough for a perfectly focused organization. A divided one dealing with all three of them at once invites disaster.

The Yankees' dark years were the result of bad choices made worse by the fact that only one man's opinion mattered. A return to the early 1990s isn't in the offing any time soon; this team has too much talent. But soon enough the Yankees may discover that there's something just as bad as only one opinion counting, and that's not having one opinion that counts above all.

tmarchman@nysun.com [/quote]

Dishonorable men can get rid of an honorable man, but they cannot bring him down to their level unless he consents to play their squalid games.

Great Article by Tim Marchman

Yankees manager-candidate Hillman negotiating with Royals

QUOTE
Updated: October 18, 2007, 11:11 PM ET

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069833

Trey Hillman, who has long been considered a possible sleeper candidate within the New York Yankees' organization in the event Joe Torre departed, is in serious negotiations to be the next manager of the Kansas City Royals.

Hillman, 44, has managed the Nippon Ham Fighters in recent seasons, after years as a manager within the Yankees' minor league system. Nippon beat Bobby Valentine's Chiba Lotte Marines 6-2 Thursday to win the Pacific League championship series in Japan.

The Royals have been seeking a possible replacement for Buddy Bell.

Bell, 56, who was hired by the Royals in May 2005, announced in August he would step down as manager to spend more time with his family.

At the end of September, the Royals had announced Bell would join the front office as a senior adviser to general manager Dayton Moore.

But Bell took a job with the White Sox as the organization's director of minor league instruction on Oct. 9.

Hillman has previously interviewed to be the manager of the Texas Rangers and the Oakland Athletics.

Omg, Why would He interested and accept a job with Royals instead of Yankees?..

Mr.Torre, I loved you for what you did for the Yankees, I love you more now for what you did to the Yankkes. Class. Thank You.

Marianne,

Don't get all pissy ... you guys tease me and tare me down ALL THE TIME and I laugh and take my medicine.

You guys can dish it out but you can't take it ...

I like both of you ... again, don't get all pissy ... I thought you would laugh ... I write Chiang Kai Shek and Michael writers Chairman Mao. Who said Michael was a beautiful name? Me, Anthony!

Michael is always being silly about his drinking and the TV evangelists.

I always enjoyed his Blog company.

One thing I don't understand ...

Lucy read and edited some of my articles ... and we have communicated off the Blog. WTF? My stories on the Yanks and Field of Dreams were both published on a site that has 8 million hits per month ... more than a bong at a typical Arizona State frat house.

Ruse, Ca has tremendous knowledge. I remember his post about Catfish Hunter in 1975 with a 24 - 14 record in 39 starts bla bla bla.

What did I do to him?

I don't know why you blame me for them not writing on the Blog ... it's nutty in a Ray Nagin "this is a Chocolate Town" kind of way.

I guess I should blame you for running off the guy who said trade Will Nieves for Roy Oswalt.

What a bunch of babies.

Now I am going to meet Larry tomorrow for lunch and I am bringing the hottie ... he can give you a full report about what monsters we are.

I think I will bring him like three or four framed photos ... some of my best stuff from around the world.

I am going to bed. I hate the East Coast. Florida if the All Star Game of white trash. What's with the full arm tattoos and no teeth and the rest of it? It's like the Jerry Springer Olympics.

Hey Jim A, Chip and Phucker

So you guys just couldn't wait to hear from me in the last thread?? Well, hear this - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

THE MACHETE HAS FINALLY CAUGHT UP TO OLD CLUELESS JOE!

Bye Bye Joe. Go home and sip your tea, doze off in your rocker, and cry like a baby watching the Lifetime network.

The only problem now is these idiots in charge will hire the wrong manager again!

Beckett is a punk? Please, please explain that ridiculous comment....

MARRIANE,
You said the RS seem to hire for that chubby-cheeked look...But They don't look like that when they hire them...they turn into fat faced monsters after they join the RS. Alot of people said Ortiz gained about 50 pounds in the first month and became a monster hitter when he joined the Red Sox...after being a dud with the Twins. Same with Lowell the gray haired wonder...with his sudden weight gain and sudden monster power. But notice all the power hitters and pitchers have that fat faced bloated body look...but the skinny guys don't perform well...they are not drinking from the same well. Good question you ask tho...What can it possibly mean?

Farwell Joe. You have brought us many moments of joy and pain. You are a class act and will always be missed. Thank you for all that you have done for the Yankees.

I wish I was excited about any of the managers that they are discussing, but I am not. If Levine is looking for a performance motivated manager then I do not think Donnie is it. I think he will be just like Joe. I really think they need to bring in brand new blood. Someone who will be a wiz kid. I do not know who that person is but they have to be out there somewhere. Look I live Donnie Baseball, but he is not the correct choice for the manager of the New York Yankees.

Dear Joe Torre,

I want to apologize for the disgusting way the team treated you in the end. Clearly they are NOT leaders and are not worthy of your efforts. Pity them. Their never ending bad personnel moves, their buisiness with Beijing, their inability to enforce the stadium's obsenity laws with A-Rod's wife (which a child sitting nearby) show they are not morally able to run such a historic franchise. They may be worthy of our love and kindness but not our respect.

None of us are perfect and we are not our mistakes, but this is who they are. It is not who you are. I think many fans, even those who were critical of your handling of the bullpen, were disgusted and outraged at how they let you twist in the wind.

Why they couldn't give you a one year deal right after the season ended only shows their confusion and inability to lead men.

Larry M,

We are leaving in about an hour. I had two of my best photos printed, matted and signed for you ... one of a swing in the reef off Belize and another of the Delicate Arch in Moab, Utah.

Tricia and I are very excited to meet you!

This will be a great day!

Ant

Sorry ...

with a child sitting nearby

... kind of in a hurry to get to Bradenton!

Beckett IS a punk, but also an ace, who will win the Cy Young Award. We need one of those on our team (Joba).
The offer to Clueless was a good one, that would have guaranteed a 2nd year if the Yanks got into the WS (not even requiring them to WIN the WS). Joe has to know that he couldn't expect more, and I think he made up his mind WAY in advance about not coming back, after the Boss opened up his mouth with the win-or-else mandate. After we lost to Clevelend, Torre sounded like he was announcing his retirement in the post-game, reminiscing about the 12 years. Lets face it, he did an overall great job with the talent he had and has nothing to be ashamed of. He handled the players, media, and fans pretty well and is a man of class, grace, and dignity. But, it is time for a change.
And to all those morons giving Francona the Catfish all this credit for saying those "kind" words about Torre. Let me tell you what I heard Frannie say: "Take care grandpa, you were a good, polite, old man who let me kick your butt, and often went out of your way to kiss my butt. Just want to let you know I appreciate it and so do all the other managers and umpires who you didn't confront on behalf of your team. You are a great guy." So before we thank Francona for the kind words, read between the lines. And please Joe, take Gator with you.

Thank you Joe Torre for a great 12 years. I'm glad you went out on your own terms. But this notion that the Yankees can't win without him and the players aren't going to accept it is ridiculous. They play for the Yankees, not any one manager. Maybe they are a little bit too comfortable in there.

Now- on to the future. My guess is that Girardi is going to be the pick (and Steve Phillips saying that Mattingly is the clear favorite is truly bad news for Don). Girardi has been quiet in his appearances on the air,and he turned down that Baltimore job, so this may have been int he works for awhile. And they mentioned the word "motivate" alot during that conference call-- Mattingly is alot of things, but motivator isn't one of them.

This is assuming that they stay within "the family". I think there is also a possibility that they go outside. They might want to bring in someone with alot of experience. That person would need to :

Work well with a mix of veterans and kids, deal with the media, have unquestioned respect, and have won a championship. Since Cox and Leyland already have jobs, there is only one person out there who meets these characteristics:

TOM KELLY.

I know it's a longshot, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happens.

Francona has known Torre since childhood -- his father Tito and Joe were teammates when Francona was just a little clubhouse pest.

After sleeping on it here is where I stand on all of this:

1. The offer was fair. Torre still would have been the highest paid manager in the game had he accepted it and I somewhat understand the rational behind the paycut - after all, I'm certain that if the Yankees won the WS Torre would have asked for a raise right?

2. I understand why Joe turned it down. He's made a lot of money and become a lock for the Hall of Fame, and he didn't want to have to continually justify his worth to the organization.

3. Lots of people are saying this will be disastrous for the team - That Torre was the only guy who could manage this team in this town, well that was the same thing they said when Buck was let go. I am reserving judgment until I see who the next guy is and he's had a year (or two) to show what he can do.

4. Torre's best quality was his ability to manage the egos of established star players, but the Yankee plan going forward is to go with youth, I don't know that given that philosophy shift, Joe would have been the best manager.

5. I do not know who the next manager will be, but I am starting to think that hiring Don Mattingly could present the same problems that hiring Yogi Berra did - what do the Yankees do if they are ever in a position where they have to fire him?

6. The only player who this may impact is Pettitte whom I believe is the kind of player who would have no problem retiring despite having good years left. If Posada or Mo leave it will be because someone gives them more years. If Alex leaves it is about the money.

All they had to do, since his contract was up, was to say Joe its been a great run but now its time for us to (take another direction, go with our youth movement in the manager area as well as the players, take your pick of reasons) -- we thank you and hope you'll still be part of the NYY family.

Unfortunately they went with the manipulative approach instead of the simple, dignified goodby. So now they look small, and Joe looks bigger than ever.

Lesson one for the new bosses. Unluckily for them their mistakes take place in public. That's baseball.

(I re-posted this from the last thread after realizing the discussion has moved here -- apologies to anyone who saw it twice.)

Rick,
We'll always disagree on Joe Torre because for you, nobody can ever replace Billy Martin. That's why you need to stick to your fantasy leagues.
I'll tell you this, I loved Billy as much as anyone, but he would have absolutely DESTROYED this Yankee team a long time ago and we wouldn't even be sitting here on our high horses thinking that 12 straight playoff appearances should get a manager fired. If the Yankees had Billy and they started out like they did this season, he would have been pointing fingers in the media and dividing the clubhouse. They would have had to fire him and bring in someone like.....JOE TORRE to come in and clean it up. Billy would have taken this same exact team over the past twelve years and probably gotten one or two World Series victories and a couple more playoff appearances and then it would have been over.
I'm anxious to see who you think will be a good manager, or a better manager for this group of players than Torre.

But hey, perhaps change just for the sake of change will be good. Maybe the Yankees will actually respond and play well next year but if anyone thinks this team will have another 12 year run in them like we just had, you're nuts. This was a magic carpet ride and for all the ups and downs, it was worth every bit of it.
Thanks Joe Torre, for 12 exciting and rewarding years and for showing you had tons of class and I personally wish you all the best.

Chip, I think motives are rarely that simple. If Posada and Rivera leave, it will probably be a decision based on multiple factors. Management's ham-handed treatment of a centerpiece of the glory years (like them) may not be THE reason. It may be A reason that weighs in their decision-making.

Steve Phillips is a moron.

He's on ESPN saying whoever the next manager is they have to be prepared to have Wilson Betemit at 3rd and Jose Molina catching. He also said Tom Hicks is working on a deal to bring Arod back to Texas!

Do you really think the Yankees aren't going to spend money to retain their guys or find suitable replacements?

Everytime this guy is on the air they should flash "Kazmir for Zambrano" under him. It seems like most past ESPN analysts (Showalter, Baker, etc) all seem to get new jobs in baseball. When was your last job offer Steve?

Very true Marianne.
I think the Yanks would have been better off just firing Torre the day after their season ended instead of coming up with this calculated plan that has backfired on them and made them look so silly.

I disagree with Chip though, I don't think the "offer" was really that fair. It was meant to embarrass Torre and treat him like some rookie manager. If they are going to start offering performance based contracts, then they better do that with A-Rod's next deal; Mo's deal could perhaps be a "by the save" type contract and Posada could be losing money if doesn't start throwing out base stealers better.
I'm not at all devastated that Torre is gone, maybe it was time for him to go, we'll see next year I guess, but today I'm embarrassed for the Yankees as they look very stupid.

Jim A.

I agree - Torre was a class act all the way and he'll be missed. But you all know my opinion that a manager is often saddled with too much credit and too much blame.

Marianne,

I just don't think that will factor into it. No team is going to offer either player as much money as the Yankees will - and given their ages this will probably be the last contract they sign.

Overall I think there's something to keep in mind. Whenever a long time player, or manager, leaves we tend to put him on a pedestal that makes it very tough for the guy coming in to take his place. In Joe's case he was the perfect manager for the team at the perfect time, but that's not to say he wasn't flawed.

Torre could not manage a pen (to the point that Cashman was reticent to trust him with prized young arms), he was too loyal to certain players while throwing other players under the bus (batting Alex 8th and such), and he was not a particularly good tactician. That said, his calm will be missed - unless the next guy also possesses that quality.

I found it disappointing to watch Brian Cashman play his bit part in this tacky charade.

Now I can only hope that the pay cuts and 'motivational packages' are extended to him, Levine, et.al. The sooner and more publicly the better.

cs07 - I saw that last night where he was predicting doom and gloom for the Yankees. He's right, Mo, Posada, Andy, Alex - they could all leave - but I get the feeling that by opening day the Yankees would find suitable replacements. And his comment that Mo leaving would force the Yankees to make Joba the closer is also nuts. Mo or no Mo, Joba will be starting next season. It is times like these I'm glad Steve Phillips works for ESPN and not the Yankees.

Marianne -

Performance based incentives are a part of most contracts (including mine). Look at all the players who get bonuses for making all star teams or post season appearances.

Torre was still going to be the highest paid manager, and given that the Yankees are likely to make the playoffs next year the cut (at most) would have been $1 mil.

Cashman, I believe, was trying to get Joe to accept the deal.

I realize you're not happy about the way it was handled, and I agree that it was a little too public, but such is life in Yankee land. In the end though, as I said before, the Yankee offer was more than fair, and I can't say Torre was wrong to reject it.

One other thing to keep in mind:

All these commentators who are describing what happened "in the room" were not actually there. Buster, Phillips, whomever...they are reporting what they were told. Well the question is, who told them? I'm sure if the information was relayed to them from Joe Torre's agent it would paint a different picture than if it were given to them by Cashman or Levine. All I am saying is to take these stories with a grain of salt and remember that there is Torre's spin, the Yankees' spin and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Steve Phillips is a moron, that's for sure. I think the only person who would bust his *ss for all the nonsense he spews would be Jimmy Kimmel (did you catch him on MNF? man, that was awkward). Maybe they should hire Kimmel to sit next to Phillips and call him out now and then.
A-Rod back to Texas- that's a good one.

All this guarantees is that the Yanks will make ridiculously high offers to Mo, Jorge and Arod to retain them. Last thing the Steinbrenner kids want to be known for is taking TNT to the whole team in one year. If everyone comes back (other than Torre) then the Yanks will be fine ... no matter who the manager is.

cs07,

Although I agree with your dislike for the opinions of Phillips...he didn't make that Kazmir Zambrano deal, Jim Duchette did.

Rob Neyer- Torre does deserve some blame

[quote]
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob

The headline of Tom Verducci's column about the Joe Torre situation contains a couple of ugly words -- "disorganized" and (especially) "cowardly" -- but Verducci never uses those words, exactly. He does use a bunch of others, though, including these:

[Randy] Levine's Yankees are proud of themselves today because they think they ran Joe Torre out of New York without getting blood on their hands. They think you are dumb enough to believe that Torre was not fired, that they really, really wanted him back, but that, golly gee, Torre turned down their offer.

But there is blood everywhere on Levine and the boys, remnants of a sloppiness and covertness the Boss never knew. They spent three days crafting a contract offer they thought would strike just the right balance: just good enough for public relations purposes, but insulting enough that no man of Torre's pride and accomplishments would ever accept. Torre is the most successful manager in modern baseball history. He has delivered the Yankees to 12 consecutive postseasons. The next longest active streak by a franchise? That would be one. His Yankees crashed out of the first round of the postseason this year because a swarm of bugs attacked a rookie pitcher and the winningest pitcher of the past two seasons threw a total of 5 2/3 innings in two starts in the American League Division Series. Such episodes defined the unpredictable nature of postseason play.

It's a good point: nobody can be fooled by the Yankees' desultory offer to Torre. I do think it's worth mentioning, if only in passing, that if Torre had accepted the Yankees' offer he would still be the highest-paid manager out there. But again, that's not really the point. Verducci knows it, the Yankees know it, Joe Torre knows it, and you know it.

No, what interests me here is the notion that Torre bears no culpability whatsoever for the Yankees' failures in October. The bugs. The winningest pitcher of the last two years. I get it. I sympathize. Really. The Yankeees' loss to the Indians might seem inevitable now. It wasn't. The Yankees were plenty good enough to beat the Indians. They just didn't. Does Torre deserve any blame, at all?

Let's accept Verducci's premise, that we cannot blame Torre -- at least not much -- because of "the unpredictable nature of postseason play." OK. But what about those four World Series the Yankees won? Didn't Torre receive a great deal of credit for those? At some point, just before or just after the fourth championship, I came up with an ironic nickname for Torre: "The Bronx Sage."

It wasn't Torre's fault. I was just sick of the beatification, which was mostly due to the Yankees playing so well in October. Yes, the Yankees usually had the best team. Or one of the better teams. But a few inches here or there and they might have won zero World Series rather than four. It really is unpredictable. But it seems to me that if you're a baseball writer or a newspaper columnist and gave Torre credit when the Yankees were winning in October, then logic would dictate that he get some of the blame when they're losing.

The Yankees have won exactly four of their last 17 postseason games. That might be inconvenient, to those who praised Torre when he was winning World Series and endeavor to defend him now. But it's the truth.

[/quote]

I would never listen to what Neyer says. He is true Yankee hater.

If Torre is as classy as everyone says he is (and I agree), he is not going to bolt to LA or the Mets, stab Willie Randolph in the back, and take Mo and Jorge with him wherever he goes.

I heard an interview with Suzyn Waldman last night and she said she would expect Joe to call Mo and Jorge and tell them to stay with the Yankees, becasue his contract negotiation had nothing to do with theirs. I agree with this analysis.

Odd for a reporter to basically call out another as Neyer did to Verducci there. I don't know that I've seen that too often.

Yankee Bri,

Have you sat down and chatted with the Steinbrenner Boys? What else did they say about their philosophy of runnung the team. Take forever to make a simple decision, listen more the Cashman the weasel, what else?

No way Joe would hover over the Mets job and do that to Willie, absolutely not. The Dodgers? Maybe. I actually don't see him managing this year unless some surprise team makes a change. No way he takes a crappy job like KC or Pittsburgh so there aren't too many landing spots open. LaRussa is supposedly staying in St. Louis so that job is not open.
I'd like to see him back in the broadcast booth, he was pretty good at that from what I remember.

Chip, I'm sure you are better informed about this than I am. Who are the other managers, general managers, etc., in baseball who have performance-based contracts?

These are not the rule at the highest level of management anywhere else. CEO's of major corporations routinely make more and more even while their company's stock drops and shareholders make less and less.

In my experience, such contracts are usually for mid- and lower-level managers and employees who have jobs where effort alone can control results, or for smaller businesses where a bad year or two can mean death.

I am not saying either way is right or better. I am simply continuing to maintain that it was an unusual, exceptional move in the baseball world, one meant to humiliate Joe if he stayed or run him off if he refused to accept the humiliation.

If it is an exceptional measure, as many believe, it does merit scrutiny.

If, on the other hand, it is a new policy that the new management means to pursue, it can only have its allegedly desired effect (motivation) if it is instituted with others at comparable levels of responsibility in the organization. Such as Cashman and Levine, for example.

Hank's a sh!t but I have Hal on speed dial

I imagine the Yankees were planning high value contracts to Mo and Posada anyway - as I've said from the get go - high annual value but only 2 or 3 years, that has been the trend for a while now to avoid the 4 - 6 year commitments.

As for Neyer - I agree with him. Torre got tremendous credit (and financial gain) by being the manager of championship winning teams. Once again - a manager gets too much credit for his team's successes and too much blame for its failures. This is not a new trend. And it had irked Steinbrenner for a long time that Torre got such acclaim for the titles while George himself was a punchline for investing the amount of money he did in the team that won those titles. Again, it isn't as if Torre was a great manager before coming to the Yankees, he wasn't even considered a good manager. His hiring was considered a joke at the time. He was Clueless Joe. As much as the Yankees owe him for years of good work, he owes the Yankees too.

Marianne, I stand corrected. Hard to get past my anti-Bosox/Nation tendencies.
cs07 and Chip have hit it right on the head. I personally would prefer Girardi, but I think Mattingly would do fine as well. Girardi would take care of any complacency in the dugout and I think guys like Posada and Mo would welcome that. I believe Jorge was miffed at his teammates earlier this year (but didn't give names) for this very same reason.

Marianne - off the top of my head I don't know. But what I can tell you is that the average salary for a major league manager is $1 million and the second highest salary to Joe's $7 mil last season was Lou Pinella at $3.5.

Even at $5 mil (with an opportunity to reach $8 mil with a WS appearance) Torre would have eclipsed the average and been easily the highest paid. I have a hard time considering that an insulting offer. Especially if you believe, as I do, that had the Yankees advanced in the playoffs Torre would have asked for a raise in his next contract.

Marianne,
We're in sync today- You and I at 10:34 AM and 10:56 AM respectively.
I hope the next manager likes his performance based contract. Maybe it should just be a cash payment for every win, with double money in the division series, triple in the ALCS and quadruple in the World Series.
Regular season wins should be worth $10,526 ea and you don't get paid if the team loses. I like this! (yes folks, I'm being sarcastic).

M from J, you're a standup guy.

And besides that I agree with you that Girardi and Posada take similar views about clubhouse complacency. I think if they hire Girardi and succeed in re-signing Posada, Jorge with his strong leadership role will be an early supporter for the new manager.

If the Yanks hire Girardi, do you folks think Mattingly would stay? My thinking was the Yanks, if they truly feel Mattingly isn't ready, would hire someone older, more experienced who would basically just hold the job for Mattingly like Bobby Valentine. If they hire Girardi, it's not a short term solution considering how young he is.

I just can't bear to see the day that Don Mattingly gets treated the way the Yankees just treated Torre.
That's what I fear most about him becoming the manager.

Jim A.,

it is not unusual for me to agree with you!

Everybody,

it was good to have you around to share last night and this morning with, I'm going now but in a slightly better mood for being able to chew this over with others to whom it means something.

Jim A.

While I don't think the next manager will have a performance based contract I also find it highly doubtful he'll start with a salary close to what Torre was making.

That's the thing to keep in mind, if Torre were making anywhere near what other managers were making, then none of this would have been an issue. But Joe was in a different stratosphere. We all know that there was some bad blood because when Torre negotiated this last contract he pointed to the rings as reasons why he should be paid a ton of money, and he was right to do so. But if the rings were HIS justification to get more money then I have no problem with the Steinbrenners using the lack of rings as a rational for giving him slightly LESS money. It was a double edged sword.

Guys,

In case it hasn't already occurred to you...this wasn't about the money!! It was about respect. Remember that because that same lack of respect was what Mo was referring to and everyone wanted to think he wants more money. No, he wanted the Yankees to show him respect for what he had accomplished over the past 12 years, just as Joe wanted respect. Neither got it and now both will be elsewhere.

Jim,

Donnie has said that if he was not tabbed as the next manager, and that manager wanted him to remain as the team's bench coach he would do so.

Unless the next manager is a Lou Pinella/Tony LaRussa type then I would assume that being hired as Yankee manager would entail keeping Don as bench coach - just as Torre was allowed to hire whatever coaches he wanted, so long as Willie Randolph was one of them.

Nudge:

You obviously have not been paying attention to the way pro sports has been going the last 20 or so years. When you hear "respect" from players it 99.99% of the time equals $$$$.

And regarding Mo - he wanted to play for Joe Torre - I respect that. But that is no longer an option. Whether he stays in NY or goes to another team, he's not playing for Joe Torre. He is also on record as saying he wants to be with the Yankees when they open the new stadium. I imagine him getting a nice 3 year $40 mil deal and doing just that.

Chip,

Money no effect on Joes decision. So it wasn't about the money.

Mo wanted the Yankees to make an exception for him since after all he is only THE BEST THAT EVER WAS AT HIS POSITION! But they didn't but then did for Alex so that lack of respect has nothing to do with money. It has to do with.....respect.

Sometimes people really say what they mean!

Good question, Jim A. I tend to agree with Chip. If Girardi gets the nod, Mattingly will either be his bench coach, or I believe the Yankees will offer him the opportunity to manage in the minors as an insurance policy in case Girardi wigs out on management. And 3 yr, 40 mil sounds about right on Mo. Chip, are you sure you're not Cashman?

Nudge - how do you know it wasn't about the money. Like you asked Bri about Hank and Hal - did you have a conference call with Torre to find out what his thinking really was?

I agree - part of it might have been he felt disrespected, but if that's the case then he's nuts. The offer was not disrespectful and he's worked for the Yankees long enough to know that the bluster he heard in the ALDS this year is no different than the bluster he heard before.

He's the guy who often said in response to criticism from above that if you want to work for the Yankees you accept that you're going to deal with comments like this. This was a lose lose situation from a PR standpoint for the Yankees. In the past they were criticized for making decisions too hastily, now they are hearing it for taking too long. They made him a fair offer - he turned it down and now they have to replace a very popular manager.

In the end I don't think this will have any effect on whether Mo returns or not.