On the Yankees beat

The media got blindsided. There never were meetings scheduled for Legends Field to begin with, at least on Tuesday.
There's no point in making rush decisions and be sorry later.

Larry M of Florida fame,

Just talked with Patricia and she definately wants to meet ... we can drive down from Tampa. We will even pay for lunch, you pick the place ok?

Also one more thing ...

The disgusting comments some have made to you on this Blog ... to you as an older gentleman, were beyond rude and I want to apologize for them.

If you want to meet call my cell phone, 314 412 6738 ...

Ant

Is somebody dogging my friend Larry M.? I hope not, Larry's a great guy and a great Yankee fan! Let's try to keep the personal attacks to a minimum (we can gang up on the morons who come in here to talk trash).

Marianne: Earlier you asked if anyone is still watching the playoffs and as a baseball fan, I still am. I have no interest in how it turns out of course but I need to get my baseball fix now while I still can...it will be a long winter until we hear those four beautiful words: "Pitchers and Catchers Report".
I wish I could just hibernate.

I think it would be a bad move bringing Toore back. I have respect for Toore and all he has done here but it is hard to justify a team that has been bounced out of the first round 3 years running now.Apparently that would be enough of a reason to fire any manager in the league on any other team. Since this team is turning to youth it would be smart to go out and hire a young minded manager. I think Toore's hunger and desire left a long time ago. Look no futher than when Joba's neck was being eaten alive and our great one sat on the bench while the game slowly slipped away. Even Clemens hinted if he was manager he would of found a way to try and delay the game.All this Mo and Posada crap is annoying as well. The only reason they want Toore back is for there own selfish diva ways.They feel they should not have to win respect from a new manager. I am sure Toore gives them certain perks that a new manager would make them work for.Personally I can live without Posada here. Sure his bat is good but his defense is gross.There is a reason Pettitte never wanted to pitch to Posada. His game calling sucks as well.I can live with Molina back there daily.Mo I respect but if he wants to cry as well he can pack his bags and leave. And if he chooses to do so we have options.Joba would be a name who comes to mind. Also if A-Rod should find himself trying to get a new contract maybe the Yankees should punch up his playoff card for last 3 years and then ask Boras why are we rewarding this guy?

Jim A., I admit that I am watching too. My interest dropped off after the Yankees dropped out, but the Rockies story proved intriguing and the naive, wondering joy of their fans charming. As for the AL, I always have a preference that if anyone beats the Yankees they should go all the way, the inference being that only the best can do it! Childish, I know, but there it is. So I picked up watching again after missing a bit of the sequence, and the game is on now as I type. It's background, though -- if the Yanks were playing I would not be on here during the inning.

Soooo....what will happen first: the Yankees make a decision on their manager or Iran gets the A-bomb?

Ever watch those soap operas and miss like 2 weeks....then you tune in and nothing has changed?

Hi, Nudge. The Yankees like to make baseball announcements at big baseball times when public attention is on the sport. Steinbrenner has hugely annoyed Selig by making big announcements during what is supposed to be the hiatus for the World Series, when Bud tries to force everybody to make way for the grand spectacle. I doubt if they'll drag the JT thing out that long and maybe the rookie generation of Steinbrenners will not follow the Boss's example at all. But an episode of upstaging would not come amiss to many Yankee fans. What could they upstage in the next few days?

Interesting how much discussion I hear from fans about Dice-K and what a disappointment he has been. Yet the same people talk about what a promising future Philip Hughes has ahead.

Dice K started 32 games as opposed to 13 for Hughes, so I projected his number to normalize for 32 games each and here are the numbers:

W-L ERA WHIP IP Hits SO BB
DK 15-12 4.40 1.32 204 191 201 80
PH 12-7 4.46 1.28 177 127 142 91

Both pitched their first season in the bigs.Not much difference between a "disappointment" and a "future star".

A pretty big difference, actually, in that Hughes suffered a significant injury during the season and took a few games to get fully tuned up after his return.

I can't say that I see either of them as future Aces with a capital A. But I think there is more room for optimism in the case of Hughes, for several reasons: we have not seen him pitch a full season, or a healthy season, and he is very young (perhaps three years away from his full adult development).

Nudge-

The big difference you forgot to include is how much we are paying Phil Hughes to do the same job as your disappointment.We brought Hughes through the system. You threw 103 million at Dice K.

AJ,

How many wins do we take away from Dice-K for his salary?

AJ,

I didnt throw anything at anyone and he isnt MY disappointment.

For a 103 million he should be winning 30 games a season.

AJ,

But YOUR disappointment...the one that was anointed to the Hall Of Fame based on 6 innings in Texas, really brought into sharp focus the folly of Yankees hyping their Youth. Didnt we hear how he was the top prospect in all the universe as rated by anyone the could breath? The surest thing the Yanks have had since the Babe!

Now its .....well maybe he will be a solid number three pitcher down the road.

For 200 million you guys should win a playoff series or two at least.

Salary and underperforming aren't topics that Yankee fans should ever bring up!

Pavano!

Clemens!

Farnsworth!

Johnson!

Giambi!

Your right that is why if you turn on Fox right now you can see money buys you nothing.

You need to talk to the crew down in Tampa then. It seems they haven't figured that out yet.

Im sure there is a long list of so-so players that the Brain trust is willing to overpay for that you guys can vilify next season as a waste of money ...as you have the past few years. After all the boy genius is still at the helm.

Theo looks like a real hero in Sox nation right? 7-0 5th inning.

I dont know, you tell me.

Maybe you should ask a Sox fan...how about that!

Nudge, I thought your gloom and doom phase would be abating by now. The Mets fans of my personal acquaintance (granted, a very small sample)are out and about, and one of them even advised me about how long to wear black after the Yankees failed to survive the first round. She seemed to think I should be able to move on to half-mourning more quickly than she had.

Marianne,
I am neither doomed nor gloomy! I am always happy to be alive and enjoying life to its fullest. There is nothing in my life to be gloom and doom about.

You guys should also not be gloom and doom. Its baseball! Its supposed to be a distraction from the real things in life that cause gloom and doom!

Marianne

You bet I'm watching! GO TRIBE!!!!! You see, I have 4 WS Field Boxe Seats behind the plate that need to be sold to the highest bidder. GO TRIBE!!!!! Oh, and it will be great to see the Tribe kick the Sox butts to the curb. A nice bonus.

Good for you, BBB C... :-)!!

I confess that I am enjoying it so far myself, even without the added incentive of tickets.

But now I have to go, as the Grillmeister refuses to share my attention with the computer any longer...

Nudge ,

Even I know I big disapointment in year one of huge contract. I supposed to change way baseaball prayed in U.S.A. I am 5 years older than Hughes and had so much more hype than him to compare us is ridicurous.
I fear if Sox rose i must commit hari kari to save face in my native Japan.

Me so soggy!

Sox pitching

We've heard all year how the Sox have the best pitching in baseball. We've heard it from the Boston media, from the national media (especially ESPN) and certainly from many on this and other boards. It has been a relentlessly repeated mantra, blindly accepted as true.

I live in Boston. I watch almost every Sox game. And what you are seeing in the playoffs is what has been the case all year. They've never had "three aces." They have one reliable pitcher -- who is having a career year, which I personally think is an aberration -- and a bunch of up and down guys in Schilling, Matsuzaka and Wakefield (also Tavarez). Truth is, their pitching situation this year has been more similar to that of the Yankees than anyone would admit.

That doesn't mean they can't come back and win this series. That doens't mean they can't win the World Series. And that doesn't mean they wont' be much better next year when, as with the Yankees, a couple of good young guys (Bucholtz and Lester) will probably crack the rotation. It does mean, however, that the Sox pitching staff is iffy and has been all year despite worshipful rumors to the contrary

Marianne,
I always felt that I'd like to see the team that knocked my Yankees out of the playoffs win it all but then came the big dilemma- 2004. That's when I decided I wasn't interested in the outcome at all. I wonder who won that series? I never bothered to check :)

What I think will be very interesting is to see if these Rockies are for real and if the long layoff doesn't take their momentum away. I still have this doubt that they can compete with Cleveland or Boston but I thought the Cards couldn't do it last year either so most likely I will be watching.

Somebody please tell me that the World Series will not be on TBS (I don't think so but I haven't verified) because I don't know if I can stomach Chip Caray anymore.

For those watching the organizational side, interesting configuration of meetings yesterday. First the younger generation of the family men met with their employees, then they met with their father.

This is very different from a free-for-all in which all the hired hands get their face-to-face with the highest level in the organization.

In this configuration, the younger family men hear them out and then have a chance to confer with each other before presenting whatever they agree to present to the Boss.

Very smart if they want to avoid the kind of factionalizing that has been common in Tampa.

Annoying to the press, though. The people who've leaked their squabbles to them for years are now out of the final stage of the loop, and the chain of gossip no longer goes straight into the Boss's office.

Besides, another layer in the decision-making process makes them squat on that sidewalk another day.

Lucchino's little engine

[quote]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/SPORTS07/110170080/1005/SPORTS

Larry Lucchino views the Red Sox as a far different animal than the Yankees, writes Thom Loverro.

CLEVELAND. -- With the New York Yankees out of the postseason, the Boston Red Sox have become the Goliath of this American League Championship Series.

It is not a position Red Sox owner Larry Lucchino is comfortable with.

He doesn't like being lumped with the Yankees under any circumstances, even though sometimes it seems like the Yankees and the Red Sox are in one division and the 28 other major league teams are in another when it comes to finances. The Yankees spent a little more than $195 million on their payroll this year, while Boston ranked second at about $143 million.
[b]
"Walk a mile in our shoes and see how different we think we are from the Yankees," Lucchino said. "They have the benefit of the largest market in the Western world. We have to compete with them, but they are tens of millions of dollars higher than us. It is inappropriate to lump us with them. It is the Yankees out there and 29 other teams in the next category. We want to be the little engine that could."
[/b]
The Red Sox are more like a bullet train these days. Lucchino and his fellow owners, John Henry and Tom Werner, have turned what already was a valued franchise into a creative financial force in sports.

The Red Sox have taken Fenway Park — a ballpark once considered doomed for destruction — and maximized every inch. They increased the capacity by 10 percent over the last five years, including adding sought-after seats on the Green Monster. The owners have become even more of a presence in New England, raising their profile in community service and media efforts. And they have created an entity called the Fenway Sports Group, using the Red Sox name to venture into other areas, including sponsorship of a Nextel Cup racing team.

"This was a great historic team and ballpark, but after one family ownership, the Yawkeys, for 68 years, we had an opportunity to come in and bring a new perspective," Lucchino said.

In a way, it was a job Lucchino was meant for, though he was born and raised in Pittsburgh, came to Washington to work as an attorney and learned the sports business from his time with the Washington Redskins and the Baltimore Orioles.

oston always was in his mind because of what his mentor — Edward Bennett Williams, the great Washington lawyer and minority owner of the Redskins and then the Orioles who brought Lucchino into his firm and then the business — once he told him about the Red Sox.

"He would tell me that he would trade his interests in the Redskins and the Orioles to own the Red Sox," Lucchino said. "He said it was one of the great jobs in sports, and he was right. And I still feel that way. It is a great market, and we have a great fan base. We call Fenway 'America's most beloved ballpark,' and we would love to be America's most beloved team."

Lucchino, along with Henry and Werner, purchased the Red Sox, Fenway and the New England Sports Network in 2002 for $700 million in an unusual three-franchise swap. Major League Baseball bought the Expos from Jeffrey Loria for $120 million, allowing Loria to buy the Florida Marlins from Henry for $158 million, which freed up Henry to pursue the Red Sox.

Lucchino is firmly entrenched in Boston, but with his strong roots in the Baltimore-Washington area and the carrot of a new baseball team with a new ballpark in Washington, there was always some level of expectation that he would be tempted to return and contribute to the revival of baseball in Washington. After all, he was the driving force behind the design and success of Camden Yards as the team president and part-owner in Baltimore and also spearheaded the construction of the new San Diego ballpark as the Padres" president and part owner.

"When it was happening, I followed it with keen interest," Lucchino said. "But I was either up to my eyeballs in San Diego, and then the challenge of the Red Sox came. There is only so much bandwidth one has. I still pay attention to what is happening in Washington. I followed their path to the new ballpark.

"I have a lot of faith in Stan Kasten's judgement and experience, and the Lerners are proving to be a very committed ownership. I think better days are ahead for the Washington Nationals. I'm looking forward to getting back to my old stomping grounds. I can't wait for us to play there in interleague play and have the mighty Red Sox take on the mighty Nationals."

Who knows? By then it could be Goliath vs. Goliath if Lucchino's faith in Kasten and the Lerners is borne out.
[/quote]

I just wanted throw up after Lucchinno aka "Lucifer" says " They have the benefit of the largest market in the Western world. We have to compete with them, but they are tens of millions of dollars higher than us. It is inappropriate to lump us with them. It is the Yankees out there and 29 other teams in the next category. We want to be the little engine that could." Did Redsox spent so much this offseason getting Lugo, Dice-K, Jd "Nancy" Drew and Okajima? How about small market teams like Drays, Marlins and Their fans feel when They have smaller payroll than Redsox

You have to laugh at how they still love to milk that 'poor little me' stance, years after it has lost credibility.

The other 28 teams must puke every time they hear it.

"The Boys" meeting with the employees is all about keeping "The Boss" from being seen and possibly heard. It also establishes the fact that they are "in charge". The George we are familiar with, would have been right in the middle of every single discussion. That George is gone. What you are seeing is a "coming out" party of sorts, for Hank and Hal. The "catch us if you can", location switch, the "don't call us, we'll call you" dictum, even "the commoner"\Stick Michael having to use the players entrance, is indicative of a radical change in the way the Yanks will now do business. George certainly wasn't "free flowing" with info, but he "relished" the notoriety associated with being the owner of the Yankees. His sons obviously do not, and is probably one of the main reasons they showed no interest in this team for decades. What may happen at these meetings is important, but not nearly as important as "how" it happens. "The Boys" are showing a new MO, and direction for doing Yankee business. Watch very closely.

Roy,
Maybe the boys don't "relish" the "spotlight" like their "father" did, but I'm "sure" they will "love" running "the team".

You are a quote using machine! I know hundreds have asked but I gotta know....why? why so many quotes? please tell me why? "pretty" please!

"Quotes" or not, Roy is right when he says that what happens at these meetings is less important for the organization than how it happens, and it is definitely worth watching closely.

The decrease in visibility of the Boss to the employees may be one motivation, but the effects of the new management style is much more far-reaching than that.

Marianne identifies one effect. Members of the press who had privileged access before no longer have it. They or others of their kind will have to carve out new paths, and those paths go through Hal, Hank and Felix.

Watch them scramble, too.

The media turns the meetings in Tampa into a circus, then turns around and calls the Yankees a circus and why are they letting Joe twist in the wind?

Every organization has meetings like this that sometimes last weeks. Torre's contract expires on October 31.

Let's have some perspective here- it is not the end of the world if the Yankees and Joe part ways (And I guarantee you he will be forgotten should the Yankees have a 15-5 April).

Newsday reporter- do we really need a descritpion of the cars these guys are driving? Are Britney and Paris stopping by?

Let's relax- they're not re-drawing the map of Europe in there.

Marianne,

Who are those people that have been leaking to the press and are now out of the loop? Do you have inside information or are you simply speculating? The Yanks appear again to be becoming the jokes of baseball with all their soap opera machinations, just like in the 80's. It aint that difficult to sit down and make a decision on ONE person. 10 days and counting. Can you think of any company you work for having to mull over your fate for ten days? More like 10 minutes.

As my late brother used to say

"Sh*t or get off the pot"

Quotes added for Roys benefit.

Nudge,

1) I have a limited amount of inside information, the source of which I would never jeopardize by identifying, or even hinting at.

2) How long it takes an organization to make a decision about one person depends on the level the person works at. How little or how much a person knows about the complexities of that process reveals what level of organizational play they are used to. If you work at the 'bat boy' level, sure, 10 minutes is what you know -- and you figure that's what goes, up and down the line. Not so.

Marianne,

Let me define the complexity for you....

Is he a good manager YES or NO.

Count the votes.....next item of business.

Yep. Bat boy level.

Teams interview multiple candidates for manager and choose between them in less time than it takes the Yanks to determine if they are going to interview multiple candidates for manager.

Papelbon

[img]http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6094/mannypapelboncrotchyp6.jpg[/img]

Hat tip to It’s a Fly World.

http://itsaflyworld.blogspot.com/2007/10/ummhey-papelbon.html

Thi is the Yankee's annual ORGANIZATIONAL MEEING.

It is not just a Torre meeting. There are many issues on the table- ARod, MO, etc.

How do you know that they haven't already decided on Torre? If they bring him back they have to negotiate a contract with him. maybe they are talking, maybe they are arranging travel plans for a news conference.

It is not a simple up or down vote- the man's contract is up.

My guess would be that "The Boys" have already decided Torre's fate one way or the other. They are the only 2 voices in the room that really "count". Not that a "vote" is ever taken. If they are bringing Torre back, they probably see nothing wrong with making an "employee" wait, especially if he is making $millions. This approach is obvious, when "The Commoner"\Stick Michael walks in thru the players entrance. If The Boys have decided to "not" retain Torre, they are probably trying to get a "committment" out of someone without actually offering the position. If they offer the job and are turned down, the media would have a "field day" revealing that the new Yankee Mgr. is actually the 3rd or 4th choice, and that the position is really not "sought after" by the best available people. This is all about the new MO and discretly letting people know where they stand in this new "chain of command". Cashman had best beware. The Boys will not be held accountable for any "verbal" promises The Boss may have made. The Boys are strictly business.

Hello all. Just got back from vacation. This was the first time I was happy to be on vacation during the playoffs. Did anything interesting happen while I was gone? LOL I am all for a change in this team, starting with the manager but who is out there that you really want. I say you sign Joe for two more years so you can groom Donnie. That is just my opinion.

They could be negotiating a deal with Torre as well. Since there has been talk of him taking a pay cut, I'm sure they need to iron out those details but you are right Roy, if they have decided to let him go they need to get their replacements in order.

Um, Roy, how do you know what's going on "behind" the "scenes?"

We don't really know "anything" about the Steinbrenner sons and have no idea how they are going to "run" this "team."

Is your "keen" "insight" on this matter the same that "guided you" to "demand" the trade of Joba Chamberlain to the Rangers for Mark Teixiera in order to "guarantee" this team made the "postseason?"

Or is it the "keen" insight that "guided you" to demand trading Ian Kennedy to the "Rangers" for Eric Gagne, which you "berated" Cashman for not doing?

Viper,

You know that Roy knows everything and we know nothing. Isn't he also the guy who wanted to trade Joba, Hughes or Kennedy for any halfway decent journeyman pitcher available in the beginning of the season when we were having all the pitching injuries?

All this specualtion from Yankee Land fuels the thoughts on the Yankee moves.
The boys (Hank & Hal) as indicated prior might be talking to Joe or his successor as we speak. It shouldn't take too long to determine his (Joe's) worth to the team. In my world the math indicates 4 million or ? is less than 7 but its no pay cut. You get my drift.

Wallace Matthews is the first reporter who has hit this Torre watch right on the head. Absolutely correct! Great article. Good job, Newsday!

I'm all for the Yankees taking their time and making the right decision instead of reacting emotionally like all of us fans want to do.
However, if I were Joe Torre, I'd walk away too and not give them the satisfaction of hanging me out to dry. Of course, he loves the job, the city, the team etc. so maybe he's thinking a few days won't hurt him. He comes out looking good regardless of what happens and I guarantee he can have just about any job he wants in baseball so he's probably not too worried.

Well Larry M of Florida fame ...

I was having trouble sleeping and checked my cellphone at 5 a.m.

There were two calls from Belize.

One from Cyprus.

And then you Larry ... how nice to hear that New York accent.

I will give you a call later ...

And we can sort out when and where you want to meet ... Outback, Red Lobster or some other place you might like. I don't care ... you pick it.

Whatever I may lack, Tricia will make up for with her looks!

Maybe we can meet Thurs or Friday if that is ok with you.

I am always ready to talk about baseball! I am seriously thinking about writing a book about baseball, with chapters on culture, baseball's history. The Yanks of course, fans of the game, economics, erosion of small ball skills and it's sociopathic cultural parallel, maybe something on the inner city, Little League, Globalization and multiculturalism, corporate involvement, minor leagues, college ball, Caribbean youth in the minor leagues, Global tournament, Australia ... how the players communicate through different languages, steroids, the Cardinals, the truly good players as people, the bad ones ... you could write and write and write and ever cover it all.

That is what makes baseball great. And everyone has an opinion. And that is what makes this Blog great. I learn so much from others who look at things differently.

You can't put a value on that.

It's really like a test laboratory. you can't have censorship in science. It's freedom to exchange ideas without restriction.

Those bound by political correctness in journalism will NEVER get all the puzzle pieces together. That is what will make such a book special. I wonder if I could really pull it off, and even if so, would anyone really care?

Anyway, probably more than you wanted to hear ...

I will call you later, gator.

Bless you today,

Anthony

Wally, son: Does 'cutting off his nose to spite his face' ring any bells in your mind?

I know, you had those column inches to fill.

Jim A.,

I hear you.

But take their time? We know what needs to be done.

You are right. After all JT did, why let him hang to dry like this?

Classless.

We see this a lot with this organization, Strip Club, F bomb tank top, Beijing pals and now this.

When I saw Newsday's story about Mattingly's agent I was disgusted in that ... well, how does one say it ... most equity, highest payroll and you don't have a plan? You have room for ambiguity but no room for a real plan.

No team this globalized has ever one a World Series. Period. If I can't talk to you in your own languages how well can I really know you? I can respect you of course ... but love is not enough in life or in baseball.

They need to get back to basics. We have the pitching core. Now find a Chuck, a Scotty B., a Tino, a Paulie ...

I have suggested players like Hamilton and Ludwick but we will be left with Damon, Melky and Matsui and that will NOT get it done. NO WAY. We are only the 4th best team in the league right now.

The way they are handling the managerial situation shows the team has no LEADERSHIP and is floundering ... yet again.

I just want and expect so much more from the Mets and the Yanks ... but we are just not getting that.

Anthony, AGAIN, -- either talk baseball or SYBTCYS.

The globalization stuff has nothing to do with it.

They haven't won because their starting pitching has sucked in recent years.

Check out the rotations during the Torre era:

1996: David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key, Kenny Rogers, and Doc Gooden

1997: David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells, Kenny Rogers, and Doc Gooden

1998: David Cone, Andy Pettitte, David Wells, Orlando Hernandez, and Hideki Irabu

1999: David Cone, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Orlando Hernandez, and Hideki Irabu

2000: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, David Cone, Orlando Hernandez, and Denny Neagle

2001: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, Orlando Hernandez, and Ted Lilly

2002: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, David Wells, and Ted Lilly

2003: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina, David Wells, and Jeff Weaver

2004: Mike Mussina, Kevin Brown, Javier Vasquez, Jose Contreras, and Jon Lieber

2005: Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Chien-Ming Wang, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, Kevin Brown, Shawn Chacon, Aaron Small, and Al Leiter

2006: Randy Johnson, Chien-Ming Wang, Mike Mussina, Jaret Wright, Shawn Chacon, Sidney Ponson, Cory Lidle, Jeff Karstens, and Darrell Rasner

2007: Chien-Ming Wang, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Mike Mussina, Kei Igawa, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo, Jeff Karstens, and Darrell Rasner

See the difference since 2003?

When you throw a Cone, Pettitte, Wells, El Duque, or a younger and healthy Clemens out there during the postseason, you're team is much more likely to win than a struggling Wang, an unhealthy Clemens, a broken down Randy Johnson, Javier Vasquez, or Jaret Wright.

The primary reason they haven't won in recent years is very simple -- build the rotation depth with the young guns and Wang and Pettitte and this team will be in a much better position to advance much further into October.

Ant,
We are getting 12 straight playoff appearances, I think we're just pretty darn spoiled right about now.
We can't bring back the past and we all know we are very excited about this team right around the time that all the free agents have been signed and trades have been made.
Who doesn't think the Yanks made the best moves possible each winter?
I know I was really excited when the Yanks got Randy Johnson a few years ago, regardless of his attitude.
I was excited when they signed Pavano, who was the best available option (or so it seemed) at the time.
I was excited when they brought Andy Pettitte back.

What I'm saying is it's not like this team isn't trying to win. They are doing everything possible in my opinion and the fact is they will never please everyone. There are those who say "blow the team up and start over", but they will be the first to bitch about a .500 season; Then there are those who want a roster full of all-stars who will complain when the team looks like they are not having any fun. Let's face it, we're the hardest fans in baseball to please but if you take a look at the history of other teams, we should be pretty darn thankful for what they've given us over the past 30 years.
I hate to see them lose as much or more than anyone but it's not like they quit.
People want to blame Torre for the losses in the playoffs yet what did he do that was so bad? He used the players that got him to the playoffs! If he had changed his whole strategy like Marty Schottenheimer always seemed to do when his football teams made the playoffs he would have been gone a long time ago but it's hard to argue with the moves he's made. Yeah, we all have the benefit of looking at the aftermath and saying "shoulda done this, shoulda done that" but he doesn't, no manager does so they are open to all kinds of criticism that is just not warranted. Look at Clint Hurdle and Eric Wedge for crying out loud, long regarded as the two worst managers in the game are suddenly geniuses. Look at the White Sox pitching coach (Don Cooper?) who was lauded as the next great pitching coach when the WSOX won the WS, now that his starters have faltered, he's about to be let go.
This is why fan's SHOULDN'T make the decisions. We'd have a new manager every week.

Viper-
Well done! I've been saying that since last winter and Torre has been saying it since he got hired by the Yanks "if you can't pitch, you won't win".

Absolutely, Jim.

Torre had said for years that he looked like a genius during the dynasty years because he had guys like Cone, Pettitte, El Duque, Wells, and Clemens take the ball in the postseason and he had the best closer of all time in the prime of his career to slam the door at the end.

This is why I don't think it really matters if Torre or Mattingly is the manager because it's all about their pitching.

If they have four or five horses in the rotation that take the ball night after night after night, that team is going to win a ton of games when it matters most.

Anthony, OK:

I was not happy with Wallace's story to take a walk and show them. He's under contract to the Yankees just the way he wants it. The Yankees are exploring their options and the direction for the team. Its a business, correct. No sense making a team of players where Joe could not function well and hire him. We should be patient and not concern ourselves over the media's hunger for a story. This is our Yankees that we're talking about.

No one knows what's going on in those meetings. Torre may already know his fate but possibly the decision is being withheld from the media for business reasons. The Yankees are the greatest franchise in the history of all sports because of the way they conduct business. I'm sure Nudge's team makes its decisions by flipping a coin. Nudge's team probably hasn't even won a free soda at McDonald's.

Nudge: A little about one Phil Hughes in comparison to Dice K:

Hughes is 21 and Dice K is 27.

Hughes has two complete professional season (double A last year and single A the prior year) and only one season with over 100 IPs prior to this year.

Dice K has 8 years of professional experience in Japan prior to this year (I'me including 2002 despite him being injured; it will be noticed in the IP comparison). In those 8 years, he pitched over 100 innings in 7 of them (2002 is the exception when he pitched ~70). He went over 200 innings twice (coming close a third time with 194). He was considered a matured pitcher with a plethora of pitches.

Hughes was considered a work in progress, not expected to be called to the majors until late in 2007 or 2008. He had work to do and pitches to develop.

So, Nudge, leave stats to me. Your prorating showed little more than a lack of understanding or an arguement for the sake of it. Your choice.

Do I think Matsuzaka underperformed? I'll tell you next year. Same thing with Igawa. Year 2 will be the most important. Do I think he was expensive? Hell yeah. By the time he's 27, I'm betting that Hughes has done at least one of the following: won the Cy Young, won the ERA title, lead the league in wins, or lead the league in strikeouts. His biggest obstacle won't be Dice K, but rather his teammate, Joba Chamberlain.

So many assumptions being made here. Hank and Hal may not have wanted to get involved in the running of the team while their father was in charge. We all know how thick headed and domineering George can be, that his sons preferred to keep their noses out of the operation. Now that George is moving out of the picture, his sons know they will be the main decision makers, the head honchos. It's a new ballgame now.

Ant is writing a book...my god the poor editor that has to make that nonsense into something coherent.

I'll tell you, I haven't been this excited about a World Series that the Yankees weren't in since the Oakland As were in it in the early 90s. I mean, Colorado is an amazing story this year and everyone loved Major League. But these wild 10pm starts for Colorado are killing me.

How suicidal are the executives at Fox right now as they contemplate the ratings of a possible Rockies-Indians World Series? I think "Yankeeography: Mel Hall" would get higher ratings.

Viper and HYD (as always) are right on the money! I still think it is time for a change, albeit a graceful one. That is why Torre should step aside and move up in an advisory capacity. Remember the Toronto meeting, where Mattingly had to repeatedly remind some of these Yanks that Torre deserved their respect? That should say everything. Better he step aside now than to start off slow next year and get fired. New blood - Mattingly or Girardi, is needed and a new pitching coach (Eiland).

HYD,

Now you have me laughing!!!! Hughes was a "work in progress"? NO! He was anointed a star! The whole world agreed and all so don't evn try that one. Dice K has 7 years experience throwing to AA hitters with a smaller and lighter ball. Well I have 30 years experience playing amateur ball so I guess that gives me an advantage over Hughes huh?

The bottom line is they both performed at the same level yet one gets a treated like a success when the other is a disappointment. Of course that would have nothing to do with one being on the Sox and the other on your team.

What pitcher were you watching that gives you bragging fuel? He was an average number 4-5 pitcher. Put him on Minnesota and he'd have a losing record. Put him on a good hitting team like the Yanks and he has a winning record.

He pitched the way he pitched. No hopeful emotions can change that. Now you can claim he will get better...which he could and should. But why wouldn't Dice K also get better? Is there some special thing about Japanese players that prevents them from adapting and improving or is that solely reserved for Yankee players. I guess Igawa can improve but not Dice K. So then why did the Yanks send him to instruction to straighten him out?

You have no consistency in your argument.

So explain the 1 run game two, great pitching awful game calling. Torre assisted in the loss of that game.

Situational hitting loses or wins games as well.

Game calling wins and loses games as well.

lineups wins or loses games as well.

Pitcher selection wins or loses games as well.

Why wang started the series is still a question mark, and please do not tell me about Well he won 19 games blah blah , Pettite won 4 WS!!!!!

SO there is other aspects of the game where the managers game calling or view plays a critical part.

We have youth now so in reality we do not need to have a manager give subpar views then the relms is turned over to a new guy.

Just like with jeter and Pettite and Jorge Torre is credited with thier growth, someone else needs to be with our new Youth

I don't buy that argument, Bomber.

Torre is the guy he was when this team won their rings.

The only real difference in the starting pitching.

Pitching often makes managers look like geniuses or complete dimwits.

It won't matter if Torre comes back because the Yanks' success over the next couple of years will largely depend on how the young guns perform and mature as major league pitchers.

I have to agree with the Viper on that point.

Same here.
Bomber- If Pettitte went out and lost game 1 against Cleveland, the fans would be howling that he should have pitched game 2 because we all know how great dandy Andy is after a Yankees loss. You see? It's easy to second guess when you can read the fargin' box score the next day!
Wang won 19 games and pitched consistently, why shouldn't he have started game 1? Oh yeah, because he lost, which had Torre known that, he wouldn't have started him. :)

I agree with Viper and Nudge. Great pitching wins. It also (as Viper pointed out) can make a Manager look like a genius. Anyone of us on this blog could manage a team with great pitching. I love Torre and I think we need a change but there is nobody out there that I would get excited about except Girardi. I am still not sure if he is really ready though.

Before any more of you get "jazzed" about the Rockies being in the World Series, the weather in Denver in late Oct. is normally snow and icy rain. Both the weather and ratings will be horrible.

Yeah man I'm "jazzed". Who say's that.....I know who....the super hero known as Mr. Quotes!

Don't pick on "Captain Quotes", don't you know it's hip to be square?

ESPN.com is saying Ron Guidry is as good as gone as the Yanks pitching coach.

He pitched consistant CRAPPY starts his last 8 outings during the regular season. We signed Pettite just for series like these. you pitch your weapons.

Torre has slacked from 96 and I made it simple on the reasons ....

Desire/Hunger - winning your first is always almost the most passionate -

Play calling -

Torre of the 90's would have had this team bunting and running all over the place.

Communincation -

Communication to superstars vast greatly from communication with mid tier players.

It may easier to mesh and WIN with the likes of paul , tino and a Young jeter than it is with a Giambi, Abreau Alex etc.

They may like him and respect him but you need winning spirit.

Age - Torre is 12 years older.

Legacy - Torre legacy is already paved in Yankee lore

Conceit - Torre feels with Rudy and anything else he is the face of the Yankees and trys to use that with every opp against mgmt.
when the team was losing he was clueless it was Cashman that was man enough to say BLAME HIM. when a manager cannot accept blame for the teams issues but is quick to praise his efforts in victories that concerns me.

Coaches - Ron Guidry is his pitching coach nuff said.

How much "COACHING" is pena and Bowa allowed. His bench coach is a student.

(better results with Girardi as bench coach)

Two key positions is filled due to team legacy over experience.

it's time...

seven years of hype we need to change crew get rid of the "clicks" no more favoritism just play the best guys this is not a knock at Torre but obviously something has too give.

When do you let him go??? I mean come on lets change this while some of our players have life in them.

What your going to wait until a upmost collaspe?

Roy, why should people care what the weather is when they are watching it at home?

the yankees had baserunners in almost all the games, how many DP's did jeter hit into? if the runners were in motion or some steals were in place then it COULD have change the Pitchers selections etc.

just like Boston - Terry is going to have to live with the Wakefeild decision if the team loses.

Clev -

had Byrd lost to the yankees that would have been on the manager,

Well Wang Lost ...twice

Bomber,

For all of his supposed "faults" as you claim, he has still been to the postseason every season during hsi tenure in pinstripes and hasn't had any kind of rotation since 2003.

The tide will turn in the postseason if their starting pitching is back up to Yankee standards.

Mattingly or Girardi will fare no better as manager if their starting pitching continues to suck, especially in October.

The Yankees meeting is out for today....

The Fan just talked to their correspondent down there and Brian Cashman has said that there has been no decisions made on Torre as of yet.

Cashman also reported that this ends the "Tampa" meetings and he is heading back to NY.

Cashman also stated again that they will not talk to AROD if he Opts out.

Pretty boring stuff out of Tampa but it has to make you think if they actually did make a decision and they will have to talk to Joe first before announcing anything.

Either way these meetings have given us no indication of them keeping or getting rid of Torre.

Good point Sully. Where are my moccasins?
I want to know why does everyone want Torre to stay until he becomes the Yankees version of Casey Stengel - "Ole Perfessor" with the Mutts? Why not consider Torre's pre-Yankees managing record and his handling of the bullpen? His selection of Guidry? Torre did not pick Stottlemyre. I also agree that Pena and Bowa have "backed off" out of respect for Torre and did not rock the boat. Both of their managerial histories show they clearly have different styles of managing a ballclub compared to Torre (and had much less TALENT). Torre is great with keeping things in perspective over the long haul, but not in fighting for his players when the umps (who sucked this year) are screwin' us, or in utilizing his bullpen. He would have worn out Joba if there were no RULES in place. Everyone knows this. Time to enjoy his accomplishments and give the "kids" a chance. It is their time to start a new legacy. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Nudge: Read what I wrote about Dice K and Igawa saying that I'm holding off my opinion until year 2. I said, "I'll tell you next year." How is that inconsistent?

Dice K was signed to be an IMPACT pitcher immediately. The expectations were different. I never said he was a bad pitcher. But I think the Sox expected more right out of the gate (right or wrong to expect that much).

Hughes has been deemed a star for quite some time. He was drafted with high expectations, but no one expected him to step right into the big leagues. He had ENORMOUS potential and GREAT stuff 3 years ago when he was 18. This is COMPARATIVLEY speaking. Everyone that called him a top prospect did not say, "Hughes will be a star rookie in 2007". That would have been foolish. The Yanks planned to work with him in AAA this year. Make sure all of his pitches were effective before rushing him to the majors. Circumstances dictated otherwise, but the kid performed well. Unfortunately, he suffered an injury. But I'll tell you to look at his starts for the last 5 or 6 games of the year. He had a sub 3 ERA. Look at his performance in the playoffs. He's still projecting as a #1 starter to anyone that knows baseball. That hasn't changed. He's just been lost a little bit in "Jobamania".

When I say work in progress, I'm not comparing him to Igawa on that level of a work in progress, but he wasn't ready for MLB yet. He didn't have a firm grasp on all 4 of his pitches. I told people early on that a reasonable year one expectation for Hughes was an ERA under 5. Not to be scared if it was close to 5. He would improve and next year his ERA would drop into the low 4s or high 3s. I stand by that still.

I've compared Hughes to Santana statistically for the same point in their careers.

Seriously Nudge, this is why people have harassed you. You make unsubstantiated claims and assertions.

Larry Florida,

I will call and set up the lunch.

Hughes Your Daddy,

Still asking Marianne to find you a girlfriend, not listing your accomplishments in accounting or how great you are, but rather insulting me? Typical. No wonder you can't find a girl. But you are right, all these random posts and ideas they would have to be well crafted. I don't know if I could do it but maybe. It's not what you write but rewrite I suppose. After 299 articles and a book on the Kurds and teaching 18 cour