On the Yankees beat

Good news: Yankees Win!
Good news: Red Sox Lose!
Good news: Cano, Matsui and Jorge are on fire!
Good news: J-O-B-A!

Bad news: Mariano gave up three hits and a run in one inning. He looks bad.

Bad news: Because he pitched one full inning last night, Joba's now unavailable until Thanksgiving.

Contract Extension my b*tt. Yankees fan expect more from Rivera.... if he wants at least 3 year contract.

I don't mind if the Yankees re-sign him. But I wouldn't mind if they didn't. Just don't raise my ticket prices or YES subscription fee to keep him.

Don't worry about Mo. Closers relax a bit with a big lead. If it was a one run game he would have shut the door. Moose is the one I'm concerned about. He just doesn't have the stuff to pitch against big teams.

Great win last night. Pettitte has been outstanding his past 5 starts.

Mussina should be given one more chance to pitch a good game. If he does not do well he should be moved to the bullpen and Ian Kennedy should be given a shot at starting.

Kennedy has been lights out in the minors and should be given a shot to prove himself once the rosters expand.

So this is the question I have for you all....

1 run lead, bottom of the ninth.... Mo or Joba?

I feel a helleva lot more comfortable with Joba right now.

It was a very good win last night. Brought back some order to the play of our team.

A good note is Torre's thoughts of removing Mussina from the rotation. I watch the Yankees religiously as most of you do. Mussina has displayed poor mph on his fastball and cannot rely on his breaking pitches to get him out of trouble especially since he throwing at batting practice speed which the last few games appear to be what he is pitching. I do not know who is his replacement but their must be someone who can come in and throw 5 or 6 innings and give up at most 3 runs.

I'm simply amazed at how much the Angels get from their lineup. It must be that their starting pitching puts them in position to win, Hello, but they have some very sound players who hit and run the bases very well. As much as I don't warmup to Mike S. their mgr. he runs a good ship and his team plays good baseball.

McCarthy: your right about Joba's pitching performances but every team is seeing him for the first time.

MO deserves the call unless injured plus you can't agrue with his success. He's human and can pitch up to three days in a row.

Great article on the Yanks young players and the fun they are having on and off the field....

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=260473

MY BIGGEST PET PEEVE!

Why bring in Mo with a 6 run lead?

Don't give me the usual BS about keeping him fresh. His 39-year-old arm is about to fall off.

Last night was a chance to give him two days off in a row with the off day today.

Torre should not use Mo unless absolutely needed at this stage of the season.

This is why he missed a $hit load of time last year.

Soooo here is my theory

Seattle is not that good.

They have been playing pretty much garbage teams since the all-star break....most of the good teams they did play they got beat up on.

Now down the stretch they have to face the Angels 7 times, Indians 5 times, Detroit 3 times and a big 3 game series against the Yanks.

I hope they crash and burn hard down the stretch.

Larry,

Pettitte showed last night the Angels can be beaten if your pitcher hits the corners, gets ahead early in the count and makes their hitters swing defensively. Against Mussina and Villone, the Angels were taking HUGE hacks. Not so much against Pettitte or Joba.

As far as the closer: It's Mo for now, because it is what it is. But I think they've got to set Joba up to pitch two innings when needed, and pitch back-to-back games when needed. Vizcaino also needs to step it up big time. It ain't April any more.

As far as Villone: He's washed up. Enough already. It's just not funny any more.

Pretty much everyone on this board agrees that Moose must be removed from the rotation. Kennedy seems like the logical choice, but anyone else worried about throwing a young kid out there in aug/sept in the middle of a pennant run? There have been cases of pitchers shattering their confidence and never being the same. Since the pennant is on the line I think he has to be the choice, but I am concerned (I'm assuming he'd be up already but someone in the organization must have said he isn't ready). Any thoughts?

If Kennedy is not ready, his numbers throughout the minors does not reflect that.

I bring him up, but there is a small margin for error for him. If he has a really bad start then he needs to be put back down.

Igawa has been pitching well down in the minors but I really do not want to see him come up.

McCarthy,

we are no longer allowed to mention the word Igawa on this board again (same with Pavano). Just the mention of his name causes to shake violently.

I see Kennedy as our only option. Hopefully the kid is ready and can contribute.

Kennedy

12-2 1.86 140.2 Innings 29 ER and 156K's

I want to see him up here now.

Ed, Verducci of SI and on fan echo your sentiments on Joba:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/08/22/baseball.mailbag/index.html

I hope this doesn't cost us a playoff spot.

I think you are right, McCarthy. The Mariners have been playing a lot of tomato cans. They'll probably finish with 87-88 wins and just short

Then again... once we get to September you can throw all the "playing over their head" and "overachievers" out the window.

If you make it to the last month, then you are a real contender.

I just think the Yankees are better

Kennedy may not be ready, but for those who watch the Yankees everyday it is obvious that Mussina is finished. Even during his good stretches it seems that he is getting hitters out with smoke and mirrors. When he pitches against a good hitting team it is virtually garunteed that he will give up at least 5 runs. I would rather take a chance with a rookie where there is a 50/50 chance he pitches well - better than the zero percent chance that Mussina offers against teams like the Red Sox and Angels. Kennedy has shown great control and a superb WHIP and K/BB ratio which are the two best indicators of future success. Finally, teams have not seen him which may offer an advantage.

I am not unrealistic and expect, if he gets promoted, that he will have a few games where he gets hit hard, but I would rather have the hope that he will pitch a gem. That is something Mussina cannot give us --- That 2 year deal was another great move by Cashman - add it to the list.

The team won't make the move to replace Mussina as the manager has proven that he will always prefer experience (the safe bet) than taking a chance on youth. The only way he gets playing time is if Moose get hurt. Please Mike, fake an injury.

Also, anyone here starting to agree with me yet that Mariano is a shadow of his former self?

Chris, the move to sign Mussina was a good one at the time. He came off an excellent year last year and the market for starting pitching was extremely pricey (see Meche, Zito). He didn't have your crystal ball to know that this would be the year that Moose would drop off. You are right about his performance this year, but this Monday morning quarterbacking whereby Cash is criticized for all his bad moves (ignoring all his good decisions) is getting old.

Chris,

I agree on Mariano. For the past five seasons, he's had one ugly slump every year. So far, this is his second slump this season, and it's been a pretty bad one and at a pretty bad time.

There's no reason right now to feel comfortable when he comes in to close out a game. His best allies will be flawless setup relief and a good offense. Let's hope that's enough to get him through this slump.

I didnt want him resigned when they made the move - his velocity was already dropping over the past few years and this trend of pitching poorly against good teams has been going on for a while. Did you watch him pitch in september and october? Was Hughes not ready to start the seasone last year?

Also, it is a GM's job to project players performances and when they do a bad job of that they should be critized. They projected 2 more years of productivity out of this guy when he barely has given them 2 months. It is his job to project players performances. Obviously he cannot control injuries and in that regard I actually give him a pass on Pavano, but a GM needs to recognize a decline.

True that there was no pitching, but perhaps if they had not made soooo many bad trades/signings of aging or mentally incapable pitchers over the last 6 or 7 years they wouldnt have been so deperate to sign this guy.

There have been some good decisions, but far more bad ones that have been covered up by George's checkbook and I can't seem to find many good pitching decisions since signing Mussina the first time - can't count bringing Pettite back as that ws just correcting the biggest mistake this regime has made. Oh, but they replaced him with Kevin Brown.

They have wasted 5 good years of Mariano being dominant because they could not put together a starting staff that could get anyone out in the playoffs. He is the most overated GM in baseball, period.

1. Moose was a good signing at the time.
2. This is baseball if Kennedy has talent. Call him up. Its not like he will get shell shocked with a bad outing. Its not Irag.
3. Moose to the pen for long relief.
4. Tomato cans or not a W is a W and we have to get it back. Don't count on Seattle playing bad but our team playing better.
5. Cashman has done well. Since the beginning of 2006 when apparent full control was installed. Prior years he may have been fan/media whipping boy!
6. Boston is keeping the lead playing Tampa Bay.
7. Braking down wins against certain opponents has some merit when individual performances are being considered not team W's.

As yankee fans we love to pretend that having a 200 million dollar payroll doesn't matter and that it still takes smart moves to win, but let's face it - having a 200 million dollar payroll virtually garauntees a competitive team. If this team had 1 more great started it would have had a couple more rings, but EVERY pitcher they have brought in from Weaver to Rogers to COntreras to VAzquez to Brown to Johnson has failed. Who do you propose I blame for that?

I called the Pettite performance yesterday and more or less the Yankees output against Lackey. It was a BIG GAME and Pettite is a BIG GAME pitcher, so of course, he won the game.

As far as Mussina, he won't be benched since he's not injured and he won't be moved to the bullpen. Should something be done? Sure, but it won't happen.

Kennedy will get called up when the rosters expand and will be given a shot.

Igawa will come up too. I think he may be destined to be a reliever. I think he could be an effective reliever as he strikes a lot of batters out, but he clearly needs work.

I don't think 95 games is necessary to make the playoffs this year, I think 92/93 will get you in.

I love the people dog piling on Mariano

Who exactly would you rather have?

Why does it take a Red Sox fan to defend Mariano?

Sully:

Mariano is reminding me of John Wetteland circa 1996. Reliable and effective, but scary.

Yankee fans don't like scary.

The Yankee organization doesn't like scary, which is why they let the World Series MVP walk. Wetteland had several more good years as a closer with Texas, but they were nothing compared to what Mo did the next four years.

Simply put, everyone got used to old Mo and scary Mo is harder to adjsut to.

Mariano is still one of the top closers in baseball, but he is nt anywhere close to what he was. He was the best closer in history and one of the most dominant players in the game.

He should not be replaced even if he blows his next 5 saves. Joba is great, but there is a big difference between pitching the 7th inning in August vs. the 9th in October.

Mariano used to be automatic and we got spoiled and expect it every time out, but the fact is he has gone from superhuman to just a very good closer. Still would take him over anyone else and give him a two year contract at years end, but everyone should recognize that we are never going to see him throw 20 straight scoreless post-season innings again.

Sully,

In his last 10 appearances, here's his line:

10.2 innings, 14 hits, six earned runs, a walk, 11 Ks, 4 saves, 4 no decisions, a blown save, a win (which was one of his blown saves) and a loss.

More hits than innings pitched and a stretch-run ERA of over 5 isn't going to lead the Yankees to the promised land. Right now, he's hittable and he's beatable. Not great for a team in a pennant race.

It was a great win. A game I didn't think we would win.

We really needed that game ... though a loss would have been survivable ...

We need to take the series from Seattle ...

This is turning into a pretty good season!

I don't like throwing around generalizations but in this case I will - ANY YANKEE FAN WHO TAKES SHOTS AT RIVERA IS A MORON.

Rivera has always, in non save situations, been known to give up a run here or there - such is the nature of the beast. He was brought into the game because with today's off day it would have meant that if he came into a game on Friday it would have been about 4 days since he last pitched.

On another note, the NY Daily News speculates that the Yankees will use today's off day to determine what to do with Mussina - whether to keep him in the rotation or drop him. If the latter, possible candidates to take his place are Igawa or Steven White. Ian Kennedy is not being looked at for the job because he is nearing the high point of innings pitched that the Yankees want him to throw this season.

Chip,

A closer with a 5.00+ ERA in stretch-run games will keep the Yankees out of the playoffs.

That's Mariano right now.

Love him all you want, we'll all be looking for other entertainment in October if he doesn't get a lot better, very quickly.

Mo didn't blow the game and that's all that matters. All closers, even the greatest closers give up hits, walks and even runs.

The hits against Mo were weak bloopers, they all seem to be weak bloopers lately. A change in fielding positions might become necessary when he pitches, by having the infield back more where all the balls are dropping.

Seattle plays the Rangers next. Do you think the Rangers can pull off another 30 runs in one game? Heck I'll even take 30 in two or three games.

Rivera's slump started when Chamberlin came up. Could it be that Chamberlin's pitches are so un-hittable that Mo's look better to hitters? (As opposed to when Mo came in after Farnsworth)

I don't think Mussina is going anywhere. On September 1, the Yankees will call up Karstens, Igawa, Bruney, Britton, and Ohlendorf. So they'll hope Musiina gives them 5, if not, they have extra guys to cover the innings and not burn out the key bullpen guys they need for close games.

Mo's ERA is down to 3.54 after being over 12 in April. It's been 3.00 in the last seven games. It shows vast improvement despite not being perfect.

Igawa? Say it aint so. Don't know much about White except that he has put up good numbers and he has flown under the radar among all of the other prospects. If it comes down to those two - I would think that they need to stay with Mussina. If Kennedy was an option than I would love to see him up here, but only because he appears to be a top notch prospect. Good point about the inning count on Kennedy as the Yankees are being super conservative with their arms.

I disagree with your generalization about those taking shots at Mariano. Why are we not allowed to state the obvious that he has become hittable? I haven't read many people calling for his job. He was the best player on one of the best teams in baseball histoy for a long time and I am sure everyone here loves him, but you cannot ignore the fact that he is no longer lights out and he is not above critism although it seems that way in the media sometimes.

That being said he is still a top of the line closer and should get the call in every save situation. He is still lethal when he has the cutter working, but it is also no longer a shock when he blows a save.

Ed,

You have to be kidding me right? Rivera hit a little bump - if that is what it takes to get you to bail out on him then I suggest you go back to rooting for what ever team you called yours prior to the Yankees being a good team in the late 90's.

As Derek Jeter said after Rivera blew a save against the O's and the Yankees won in the bottom of the 9th Rivera has carried this team often enough. If he needs them to pick him up once in a while, so be it.

Chris -

There is a vast difference between saying he has been more hittable than usual and saying that you don't have confidence coming out of the pen to close out games.

There is not one true baseball fan, of any team, who would not pick Rivera as the man they want closing out a big game for their team. If you're willing to throw him under the bus after what amounts to a few uneven outings, then yes, you are morons.

I hope that Moose was taking notes on how to pitch from Petitte last night. A superb performance!
Andy is dandy!
Mo didn't exactly get hit hard last night. He struck out Anderson on a good pitch. Kendrick bounced one over A-Rod's head, a ball that found the hole, big deal. He struck out Kochman on a nasty cutter and got the fly out to Abreu.

Okay, I give up. He's TOAST! Give Joba the closer's role, NOW!!

Sully,

Did you try the link that I sent to you?
Or are you ignoring me for some reason?

Question for everyone

If they make the playoffs and Mussina is healthy and pitches to around a 5.00 ERA with some good starts scattered in there, and Hughes pitches to an ERA around 4.00 who would you rather see get the call in game 4? and, who do you think Torre would give the ball to?

Also, does it seem that Hughes' velocity is down a bit from earlier in the year? I am assuming that he is still working up his arm stregnth, but it worries me a bit that his fastball doesnt seem to have the pop as advertised and seen earlier in the year

John G.

I have a better idea - lets give Chamberlain Mussina's spot and then on the days he doesn't start he can come out of the pen for the 7th, 8th, and 9th.

Chip,

When did I say I didn't want Mariano closing games? In fact I have made it a point to say that I do want him closing games on every single post. Just because I think his skills have diminished does not mean I do not want him closing big games. I don't think anyone else has said that they don't want him closing either.

Regarding MO, the numbers don't lie. If the Yanks currently had a playoff spot "sewed up", they could hope this is just a slump. But playing "catch up" in regard to the playoff picture, with a Saver with MO's numbers over the last month, cannot be "written off". Come Sept., instead of pitching the 7th or 8th, Chamberlain may be pitching the 9th, and part of the 8th. A $200 million dollar payroll is gonna be part of the thought process, if MO continues his recent string of mediocre outings, and the Yanks are still fighting to get into the playoffs.

That's a GREAT IDEA CHIP!

In fact, maybe he can take Wang's spot also since he's in a slump.

That's the way to think on your feet, Bro.

and I am not basing this opinion on the last week. Ever since 2004 when Boston seemed to figure him out he has not been the lights out Mariano. I posted a couple of weeks ago before this bad stretch that he is a shadow of his former self. My point is that we got accustomed to a guy who NEVER blew a save in a big spot. What did he have 25 consecutive saves or something ridiculous like that. Since then he has hit bumps in the road. He is not nearly as bad as his last week and he will get back to his early season form, but we will never see 96-2003 Rivera ever again.

Chris:

"There's no reason right now to feel comfortable when he comes in to close out a game." Ed - I'm thinking that being the best at his position EVER is probably reason enough.

Roy:

I will make any bet you want that all but a couple of saves recorded the remainder of this year by the Yankees will be by Rivera. I suppose if Derek Jeter goes into a slump you would want Torre to bench him in favor of Betemit too.

CHIP-
I don't want Betemit to replace Jeter, but do you know if he can relieve?

Roy

Mo is NOT going to be replaced as closer. As great as Joba has been you cannot assume that he will be able to close games, especially this year. The ninth inning is a different animal than the 7th or even the 8th. If they lose than it should be with their best and Mariano is still their best.

Couldn't open the link yesterday.
I'll try with Firefox

Thanks John G

Chris -

He's 38 and it isn't that he's not a great closer it is that you (and others like you) have been spoiled by the fact that for 6 years he was superhuman.

There is not one pitcher, on any team, I would take over Rivera - that includes Papelbon, Nathan, Wagner, K-Rod - whomever.

Right now, Papelbon is superior. Take off that blindfold.

saying you are not comfortable with a guy and calling for him to be replaced are two totally different things. What fans of what teams are "comfortable" with their closers?

Roy

How many big playoff games has Papelbon pitched in? How many big games late with playoff implications has Papelbon pitched in?

The answer to both questions is zero.

He's a phenomenal talent and could be a great closer for years to come - that said, as a playoff performer he can't hold Rivera's jock - yet.

ironic thought that right after I said nobody was calling for his job that someone did

After being perfect in save chances in May, June and July... some of you are throwing Rivera under the bus for a couple of bad weeks?

Jeez!

Let me ask you Rivera doubters a question:

Who would you rather have close?
Who is a better option now than Rivera?

Joba?
He's been in the bigs 2 weeks longer than me.

Farnsworth?
Mussina?

Who else in BASEBALL would you rather have?

Seriously.

Better throw a Hall of Fame pitcher under the bus because of a couple of bad weeks!

Chip... Papelbon pitched well in the 2005 playoffs

NOTHING compared to Rivera, but he has pitched in October before

(And this Red Sox fan would rather have Rivera than Papelbon... just saying)

In sports, it's all about "what have you done for me lately"? Your references are all "past tense". Again, right now, Papelbon is the better Saver. Stop the "Homer" nonsence.

Sully,

It disturbs me that of all people defending Rivera a Sox fan is one of them - though I'm sure someone will post on here that the only reason you want Rivera to remain Yankee closer is because you know he's done and you want the Sox to beat the Yankees.

It is some of these spoiled "fans" who make me almost wish the Yankees wouldn't make the playoffs this year - shake some of the people off the bandwagon and all.

CHIP-
The company you are currently keeping on this Blog, should tell you something about your position regarding MO.

Chip,

I don't disagree with you - in fact your last post is exactly the point I am trying to make. We were spoiled by the best pitching baseball has ever seen. He is still a great closer and when its a close game in the ninth inning, I want him out there.

With a gun to my head I don't know if I take the 38 year old Mariano over K-Rod who has pitched in big games. I can't say Papelbon yet as he has not been big game tested. He is still mentioned among the elite closers in the league at age 38 which is amazing

Roy

Also in sports it is accepted that past performance is often an indicator of what to expect in the future.

I'll take Rivera - you should feel free to keep your Chicken Little routine to yourself for a few hours

Hey, I'm just trying to be objective.
Rivera had a lousy April and then 3 straight great months

By that reckoning, he'll be great in September and October.

Papelbon is having a great year, but he hasn't been tested (save for 3 games in 2005) in a post season situation

Frankie Rodriguez is solid. As is Trevor Hoffman (just don't mention Scott Brosius around him).

JJ Putz is having a great season, but like Papelbon is untested.

Hard to pick someone other than Rivera in a post season situation

CHIP-
Stop getting all "bent", and just look at the current performances of both MO and Papelbon. Be objective for once. By the way. What time is the "Yankee Homers" meeting tonight?

Roy -

I would rather have an opinion that is shared by a savvy Sox fan like Sully than a reactionary charicature of a Yankee fan like you my friend.

I have a feeling Papelbon will be great in the post-season, but one post-season does not qualify him as elite, yet.

As for Mo - if he is the third or fourth best closer in the game NOW, is that such an insult to him. Nobody is taking anything away from his career and what he has done for the team and us as fans. There is certainly nobody on the

Please be objective, not emotional. I like the Yanks as much as you, but I can be objective, you obviously cannot. Maybe it's those "rose colored" glasses your sporting.

I have a feeling Papelbon will be great in the post-season, but one post-season does not qualify him as elite, yet.

As for Mo - if he is the third or fourth best closer in the game NOW, is that such an insult to him. Nobody is taking anything away from his career and what he has done for the team and us as fans. There is certainly nobody on the teamwho should replace him.

Sully,

The closest right now would have to be Joe Nathan.

Mo is 37 years old so of course he's going to lose a little off of his fastball. It happens to all of them. He struck out two in the 9th last night and that pitch that he got Kochmann out on was nasty. He can do multiple things with the one pitch that he throws. Also, the yanks were up by 7 when he got into the game so what's the big deal? It's not like the Angels were bashing balls all over the place. Stop being alarmists would you all please?
For my money, I wouldn't want any other closer in a big spot other than him.

Another note: some Tiger fan posted on a previous thread about his team being healthy. Hey Tiger fan: Sheffield is down! You're going down! Kiss the Central goodbye! Go Tribe!!!

Sully,
Sorry Bro. I had three bug docs waiting for me this morning when i got in so that kinda soured my mood.
Sometimes that link is a pain in the butt. I use Windows Explorer for it and it works (90% of the time). My son uses Firefox and we watch the games on it on Saturdays because of that stupid Fox blackout rule.
I hope that it works for you as I know that you will enjoy it. That's what i use to watch the games at work. (Thank God that I have an office and not a cube!)

There really isn't a lot of difference in going from MO to JO (Joba).

Roy - saying that the Yankees should pull Rivera from the closer's role and hand it to Joba down the stretch is not being objective. It is being reactionary and short sighted. As I said, by your logic if Jeter goes 2-20 against Detroit this weekend you would bench him against Boston in favor of Betemit.

CHIP-
MO's performance and the Yankee position in the playoff hunt will dictate this possible move come SEPT. Also factor in the possibility of a $200 million dollar payroll not making the playoffs. Nothing reactionary about it. Just cold hard facts, and the money involved. Baseball is a business first and foremost these days. That is being realistic, not reactionary.

Sure, no difference at all going from Hall of Fame closer who happens to be one of the best big game performers in the last 20 years to a rookie 1 year removed from college with a total of what, 11 innings in the bigs?

Roy, how are you going to react when Joba does get hit - and he will - will you say "well, it was bound to happen" or will you say "we should have traded him for Eric Gagne?"

And Roy as I said, I will make any bet you want that whatever Rivera's doing - where ever the Yankees are in the playoff picture, Rivera will remain the closer of the Yankees.