It’s been a difficult two weeks for Mike Mussina, and therefore, for the Yankees, since he is in their starting rotation. It’s kind of hard to fathom that things could go from good to bad so quickly for Mussina, but that’s the case.
In the 12 starts leading up to these awful three outings, Mussina went 6-4 with a 3.54 ERA. He averaged 6.14 innings per start in that stretch, and allowed more than three earned runs only once. He won his final four starts in that time.
Now, in Mussina’s latest three starts, he is 0-3 with a 17.69 ERA. That includes two starts against the Tigers and one against the Angels. In the last two starts, he hasn’t pitched into the fourth inning. Mussina says he isn’t hurt. Is he done as a successful major league pitcher, at age 38? That may be premature. Right now, one wonders if he is at least done for this season.
Here are a bunch of comments from Mussina from after last night’s start.
“We had a couple great plays the first inning. I thought maybe my luck was changing a little bit.”
“It’s not good. Two weeks ago, I felt really good about the way I was throwing the balll. … Two weeks later, it’s completely at the other end of the spectrum. I really don’t feel as if I can do anything right.”
“Probably the last nine innings are the worst nine innings I’ve pitched in my entire life in a row.”
“Right now, I let go of it, and I don’t feel like anything good is going to happen.”
“We got it handed to us. That’s three times now that I’ve been out there that we’ve had it handed to us.”
“It feels like I’m never going to pitch well enough to get to the sixth or seventh inning.”
“If Joe (Torre) thinks that somebody else can give us a lift or do the job better, then that’s up to him.”
“I can’t believe in three starts, that I forgot how to pitch after 17 years.”
“I want to go out there and pitch. I hope he (Torre) has enough confidence in me to send me out there.”
What should be done with Mussina? If you take him out of the rotation, who would you put in his place?
Comments (157)
Mussina is a pro and hopefully he'll do what's best for the team.
I don't know what we'll do as far as someone taking his spot in the rotation. Kei Igawa is not the answer. Chip had said that the waiver wire is a possibility. Maybe Rasner can take the ball.
I just don't know.
As far as Moose goes, he really needs to do some soul searching when the season is over. He has to say to himself can I reinvent my style of pitching and become effective again like Greg Maddux (41) or Jamie Moyer (100), or is it time to hang'em up?
Kat,
Do you have a list of all the pitchers who have cleared waivers?
We should've signed Boomer!!! Okay, I'm just kidding.
Kennedy should be promoted and take Mussina's spot in the rotation Sept. 1. With "no limit" on the roster, this is a perfect opportunity to give Kennedy a "look see". Also, playing against Tampa Bay means even if Kennedy should have "trouble", the Yanks can win a high scoring game.
Moose is done. I have respected his pitching when he was with the O's but now he has no zip on the fastball which means the batters won't go after pitches on the outside corner. He does not have the confidence to pitch to contact. This is bad for a guy of his ability. I'd moved Joba into the SP for the remainder of the season. He has 4 days rest after an outing bring up Britton and whomever. Mussina for long relief. He'll be on the mound in short order with our cast of starters of late.
The Yanks are not going to make Chamberlain start games this season. He's pitched out of the pen for a month so forget that option.
It's not an option.
Read John Harper's column in the Daily News.
It's going to be either Igawa, DeSalvo, Moose.
what more is there to say really? The guy has been awful for three straight starts and deserves to be skipped in the rotation. I think David Justice and Al Leiter had a couple of great takes in their post game comments.
Justice: Mussina needs to look in the mirror and realize he's coming to the end of his career and then he needs to realize that there's no shame in that. Every great player who has ever played the game has reached a point where they just didn't have it anymore. Moose is right, he didn't forget how to pitch, his body just won't let him pitch the way he knows how to.
Leiter: There are two types of players. The one's who adjust their game to the physical limitations that come with age, like a Roger Clemens and the ones who don't. The one's who don't end up calling baseball games with Michael Kay.
Both are good points from two guys who know EXACTLY what Moose is going through, going from All-Stars to washed up. Moose is, I think, too set in his ways to adapt in season and learn to pitch with limited stuff.
On a related note, ASSUMING Mussina is out of the rotation the question is who replaces him. This is from ESPN's Rob Neyer:
As to who that starter might be, Ian Kennedy has been fantastic since being promoted to triple-A along with Joba Chamberlain, but, like Joba, Kennedy is a first-year pro on a strict innings limit. Joba's supposedly being held to 130 total innings (he's at 97 1/3 right now). Kennedy has already thrown 146 1/3 across three minor league levels. I'd be very surprised to see the Yankees push him into the major league rotation at this point in the season, despite his minor league dominance.
How dominant has Kennedy been? In 35 innings with Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, he's got a 2.08 ERA with 34 strikeouts and 11 walks. And he was just as dominant earlier in the season, first in Class A, then Double-A. And he's not exactly a baby; he'll turn 23 in December. So he's older than Detroit's Andrew Miller, who's started a dozen games in the majors this season. But ay, there's the rub: Miller hasn't pitched all that well. Yes, he's pitched better than Mussina has lately, but it's not like you can just throw some kid out there and assume he'll give you six good innings every time.
In reality, Neyer says, the choices are Kei Igawa (ugh), Steven White (6-4, 3.61 ERA 1.28 WHIP, 97IP, 95 Hits, 29BB, 59K)
I'm a little surprised that Alan Horne hasn't gotten any consideration, but I guess that after the Chase Wright breakdown the Yankees don't want to take a kid from AA and throw him straight into the post season push - I don't blame them.
The Yankees are bound to lose more games from now until the end of the season. Last night's blowout might be a good thing -- better than 1-0 -- because they got some needed rest after an 8-day road trip against the Angels and Tigers; before that they played the Tigers for another 4 games and before that the hot Orioles -- who have been super hot since they changed managers -- and before that they played first place Indians. They have had a very tough August and they must be exhausted. With the blowout yesterday they rested themselves and key pitchers. A loss is a loss 1-0 or 30-0. A blowout allows the team to rest the best.
It's a shame the Yankees didn't have yesterday off and that they were scheduled to play the Tigers for two 4-game sets in two weeks (in addition to Angels and Indians). I don't understand why they weren't given a day off after traveling from California and Michigan while the Red Sox were given a day off after traveling from Chicago and Tampa. After three tough weeks, the rest of the schedule will be a piece of cake -- after the Red Sox games anyway.
One major league start is not gonna "ruin" Kennedy either physically or mentally. With the roster expansion Sept. 1, Torre can even "quick hook" the guy at the 1st sign of trouble if he so wishes. Chamberlain should also be relieving back-to-back games at this critical juncture of the season. The Yanks cannot continue to just "give away" games as they have the last week. Last week they "gave away" game 1 vs the Angels when they refused to use Chamberlain with a lead in the 7th because he had thrown 9 pitches the night before. They then "gave away" Sunday's game by "resting" both Jeter and Posada in a game we lost 5-4. Why not stagger resting these two offensive weapons? If Jeter is so "banged up", why did Torre leave him in all 9 innings of that debacle last night? Out of the Tiger "nucleus", the only guy they "pulled" was Casey. They twisted the knife real well.
Roy & Larry, Are you guys just not paying attention or are you being hard headed? 1) Kennedy is not coming up, Cash has already said so; 2) The Yankees almost certainly will NOT move Chamberlain to the starting rotation. You can continue to argue about what they should do or we could talk about realistic options...
When did Cash say Kennedy is not coming up?
How about Matt De Salvo:
Last start at SWB he went 8.0 innings and gave up 1 run. His ERA is 2.94, WHIP 1.35, K's per 9 innings: 7.4.
McCarthy, about two weeks ago he indicated that there was an inning limit on Kennedy (don't remember what it was) and said that he was just about there. This was in response to a question about whether he would consider bringing Kennedy up. Since he has been utra-conservative with Hughes & Chamberlain, it's my guess he sticks to this...
John,
I've seen enough of DeSalvo. I think he's an AAAA pitcher. I'd favor the waiver wire (someone like Trachsel if available) or I'd give Chase Wright another start (two starts, one okay, 1 terrible). Where is Rasner?
Kennedy is not on the 40 man roster. To add him the Yanks would have to cut somebody.
Realistically, look for Igawa, DeSalvo or White to get called up.
They also aren't going to "bend" the "Joba Rules", as much as we all probably want them to.
However, and this has been stated many times here, Joba is NOT THE SAVIOR!!! The Yanks dug this hole all season long and one guy isn't going to scoop them out. There's 24 other guys on this roster ya know.
First Cashman "said" it, now we have a "guess". If the Yanks are serious about getting into the playoffs, Kennedy will join the Yankees.
Hey Roy, maybe the Twins can get Johan through waivers and we can get him. Keep living in fantasy land buddy...
Roy,
If we don't get quality starts for the rest of the way from guys not named Petitte and Wang, or better performances in the pen from guys not named Chamberlain, Vizcaino and Rivera, then guess what?
We don't deserve to be in the playoffs.
Roy,
Didn't you think Kennedy was just another "prospect" who the Yankees should have traded for Gagne? Now he's going to save the Yankees' season?
The Chamberlain Rules will be altered, and Kennedy will join the Yanks. You can "make book" on that.
I've got 20 bucks that says you're wrong.
Yeah Roy, you've been right so many times before. I will personally guarantee you that Kennedy does not join the starting rotation. Difference between you and I, apparently, is that I can read...
The Yanks should use every "weapon" they have available, whether currently on the team or not. This has nothing to do with previous "possible" trades. Deal in the "here and now", not the "past".
Okay Roy, in the here and now, Cash said Kennedy has reached his maximum innings thrown. Ergo, he isn't going to bring him up. Have I thumbed it down enough?
Please read my post carefully. It said "join the Yankees". Obviously you can't read.
Guys,
Roy doesn't need my help, but I have to say this anyway.
He's a Yankee fan and therefore, our brother. Right now, he's upset, pissed, embarrassed just like the rest of us are. He also wants to win in the worst possible way like we all do.
I don't want to fight with him.
If Moose was the only starter that was a problem, it could probably be gotten around. Except for Andy, do you really trust any of the others?
True Yankee,
Other than Wang...
NO!
Torre has to stop making excuses for Moose and accept he has lost his stuff. Basically, Moose is going through his "dead arm" period, as most pitchers do during this time of year. Earlier in the year his stuff was just good enough to get past over-aggressive teams, that is why he had a stretch of success. Moose located well last night, but did not have bite, snap, or velocity on any of his pitches. That the Tigers did not crush every ball was a testimony to Moose's ability to locate, but they still got hits. It is time for Torre and Cashman to stop finding reasons not to bring up Kennedy. The kid should only be allowed to go 6 innings per start (pitch count!) and will probably only pitch in 3-4 games (18 - 24 additional innings)the rest of the way. Moose could take the time to regain some arm strength, and pitch effectively out of the bullpen as a long reliever. Torre can not allow starters to give up 5-6 runs, then take them out of the game. The hell with hurt feelings, we are supposed to be trying to win a spot for the playoffs, and get to the World Series. Doesn't look like Posada, Mo, Matsui,Jeter,or ARod think this is a "rebuilding" year, so lets start coaching like it is time to win. Example:Torre could have argued that the Tiger who was hit by a pitch "leaned in" on that and should have been called out. Even though we were losing by 30, you have to be in the game at all times and show your team you will do whatever it takes and not skip over "minor" details. Actions speak louder than words. Wake up Joe!
First you quoted Cashman as saying "about there" concerning innings pitched on the season. 2 minutes later you say Cashman says Kennedy "has reached his maximum innings thrown". Either Kennedy is pitching as we speak, or your confused.
Join the Yanks? When, 2008? You mean bring him up and not pitch him? Why would they do that? We were trying to find a replacement for Moose. How does that contribute to the discussion...
Isn't Byung Yung Kim available?
It is very difficult to have a discussion when you continually misquote both Cashman and myself.
Is there anyone on this blog that thinks the Mariners rotation is better than the Yankees? How about the line-up?
Steve,
No.
But they have a great pen.
Roy, do you really want to get into a semantics battle with me? I suggest that you do not. It's my understanding that he will be allowed to throw a few more starts in minors and then he will be shut down for the year. At any rate, Cash has made it pretty clear (to everyone not named Roy Storing) that he isn't coming up to the majors this season..
"Mis-quoting" anyone is not a "semantics battle". I say Kennedy will "come up", you say "no way". Let's just leave it there.
Loaiza is rumored to have cleared waivers.
If the Yanks get their heads out of their rear ends, they will be the WC team.
Roy,
I am hoping you are right. I agree, it seems like Cashman is hedging his bets. So, maybe common sense will prevail here and they will "extend" Kennedy for a few more innings.
The Yanks have a huge decision to make. Kennedy has pitched 146 Innings this year.You do not see many minor league players pitch over 150 innings in a season. Tyler Clippard pitched 166 innings last year and he had the most by far.
If he starts the rest of the season in Moose's place he would pitch a max of 6 times.
Those starts would probably be:
Tampa Bay
Kansas City
Toronto
Baltimore
Toronto
Baltimore
Not hard teams at all but if he does pitch well he could possibly pitch up to almost 200 innings on the season.
I am glad I do not have to make this decision. We may be jeopardizing our future if we over use his arm.
With all that said, I say give him a shot even if it is only one or two starts.
The point goes to Roy!
MikeZ go to your corner! (You can bring out the steel chair later in the cage match.)
Go Yanks!
I've always prefered the "hair vs the mask" matches.
I dont understand why there is so much worry. Aside from the slow start that Yankees are still one of the best teams is baseball. They will get the WildCard and then we will get to see what kind of postseason they can put together.
I'll allow it!
Thanks "Judge".
Steve from Raleigh
*News Flash*
We will not make the playoffs with the pitching we have been displaying as of the past few weeks.
We need to make some moves. Starting with Mussina.
Judge, Roy is a nice guy. I have no doubt he bleeds blue, just like the rest of us. He's just wrong alot. If you are awarding him a point, then I know the fix is in.
Chip or anyone else, do you recall where Cash made his remarks about Kennedy? I can't seem to find them now, and I've looked?
McCarthy
thanks for the *news flash* but seasons arent judged by a week. Just like the hitting (Cano, Cabrera, Abreu) struggled early and the Yanks got through it they will get through not so great pitching because nobody should be counting out the Yankees top 4 - Wang, Petitte, Clemens and Hughes.
One pitcher has been eliminated from consideration: Steve White(Star Ledger). Come on Cash: Kennedy - 6 innings or 75 pitches per start - whichever comes first, for 3-4 starts, then piece together the remaining starts (after we clinch a playoff spot) with DeSalvo,Wright,Moose,etc.
I love it when someone has to "call in the cavalry".
Steve,
Pettitte and Wang. They are the only two you can count on.
Clemens and Hughes can not be counted on against good offenses day in and day out.
Look at their numbers if you do not believe me.
Difference between you and I Roy, is that I'll acknowledge I don't know everything. You aren't right simply because you put things in quotes...
McCarthy
So you like Washburn/Weaver (Seattle 3/4) or Robertson/Durbin (Detroit 3/4) better?
McCarthy, you're right. we're relying on 2 consistent starters, 3 guys in the pen, and an offense that doesn't score alot against good pitchers. Since all the teams fighting for the wildcard are flawed in someway, should be an interesting finish...
Actually, Wang has given up 18 er's in his last 5 starts (month of August), compared to Andy's 8 er's in the same time/number of games.
Roy and Michaelz,
I read in the Daily News (I believe it was John Harper's column) that Kennedy had pitched 147 innings and was on a strict 150 inning limit so he is not an option, according to Harper.
The only choices outlined in that article were Ughawa (I've changed his name for him); DeSalvo and Karestens.
However, in today's article, Harper asks why the Yanks just don't raise the innings limit and let Kennedy pitch so his last couple articles have conflicted. One thing he does mention is that a player would need to be waived in order to bring up Kennedy, who is not on the 40 man roster.
Observer beat me to it, but I was going to mention that Wang hasn't exactly been the picture of consistency lately. Sure, he had a good start last time out but he was crappy for a while before that.
Now, now Boys, play nice. The sand box is big enough for you all, even a Boston Red Sox fan.
Jim, I've seen that about the 40 man roster before, but I guess I'm not sure how it works. I guess at some point the team must specify a 40 man roster (prior to the September call-ups), meaning that the GM must try and decide early on who he might call up and who he won't? Do you know when they must decide that 40 man roster? Sounds like Cash has pretty well decided that he never really had an intention of bringing Kennedy up. Thanks for the info!
All players at the ML level must be on the 40 man roster. To bring someone new on someone else need to move off the roster. The roster is set for the playoffs September 1st and then on only moves within the roster are allowed. A player has by MLBPA rules a certain number of moves on and off the roster. Theres more detailed complexity depending on the yearly staus and such that I cant remember off the top of my big head.
on the other hand....Dice-K "enjoys' about the same stats in august as Wang....so, there you go.
Id be scared the Pettitte is due for a stinker. He has been pretty good for like 7 of the last 8 and I think the past four were solid. I dont have the stats up so Im recalling from my left brain.
Got them now...its been 10 SBS (Starts Between Stinkers).
Well, of course, being a Sox fan...I'm hoping that Dice-K has a solid outing, and Andy falters...but I wouldnt bet on it....I believe that Pettite is at his best in big games...and the first game of the three game series, with alot riding on it, for the Yanks, qualifies as a big game. I think the Yanks have an edge tonight.
Its a shame he had to leave town and come back to be respected and appreciated.
He has always been "respected" by this fan.
I bet most of the guys on this blog respected himall along. it was all those band wagon fans. If George said something it was like the word of God. Gearoge didn't respect Andy so they didn't. You all know those fans. The ones who can't think for themselves.
Nudge, thanks for the explanation. Why does someone need to be waived instead of just sending someone down?
You guys are giving Hughes a "bad rap". He has had 1 "bad" inning in the last couple starts. Other than that 1 "bad inning, he has been effective. As he gets more starts, he will learn how to "escape" that 1 "bad" inning. Stick with him. As Al Pacino said in Scent Of A Woman, "He's gonna make ya proud".
It seems my typing is terrible. I guess I picked up John G's fat from his fingers. Thanks John!
MichaelZ: I have been accussed of being hard headed but not being aware of the innings limitations of Joba was the basis of my decision. I did not suggest Kennedy but Joba has 97 which is very close to 130 limit. So, bring someone else up. It can't be Moose,he's done mentally which is as important as physically. I do believe Joba should be a starter next year. Even Igawa could pitch better then Moose.
They have to clear waivers and if not picked up then they can be assigned.....or released DFA!
That fat had to go somewhere Nudge.
A player has to clear "waivers", only if the team is out of "options" on said player.
MZ,
Hughes has only had 2 good outings out of 7. None rate as a quality outing (7 innings 3 or less runs) although one would have been most likely (Texas).
His hits totals haven't been bad but his walks numbers are not cutting it.
Roy,
Yes that is true. Thanks for the correction. There are other minor subleties also that my brain choses not to recall. Maybe more fat?
I believe the definition of a "quality start" is 6 innings\3 runs or less.
Roy,
Right again. Im getting killed here.
Hughes' velocity also hasn't been there since he came off of the DL. If I remember correctly, he was hitting the gun at 93-94. Now he's around 90-91.
He's also hanging the breaking ball and not really throwing it for strikes.
Nudge is correct about the walks and we all know how they kill you.
Look at what Verlander did last night. He was consistently getting strike 1 which enabled him to set up his other pitches.
So that bumps hi up to the 2! Thats 28% for the statistics hounds.
FYI Mussina has 4 in his past 10 outing a 40% rate for perspective on how Hughes is doing.
I know I said that they never should have brought Hughes back to the big club until September but the lack of other pitching option in the minors and lack of pitchers available on the trade block I cant kill Cashman for throwing him to the wolves as he did (I hate it when I can't kill Cashman).
BUT!!!! I can kill Cashman for from the onset of the season putting the club in the position that they would have to even consider Hughes as an option before September. This all gets back to the Igawa and Pavano mess....which falls squarely in his lap.
Nudge, I haven't said anything about Hughes, so I'm not sure why that comment was directed at me. I am one of those that thought he needed to be put in the rotation becuase he was out best option, not becaue it was ideal. Two weeks ago, I picked him to finish at 5.-3 with a 4.50 ERA. ERA's a little higher, but I'm close. Hard to predict that Yankee offense.
My question was, if we called Kennedy up, why would someone have to be released? Do we not have options on any of the players currently on the 40 man roster?
MZ,
Sorry that was a Roy comment. Yours was above. Fat eyes now too.
Roy's partially right - a player can be optioned off the 25 man roster but not the 40 man roster. To get a player off the 40 he has to clear waivers or be put on the 60 day DL. The latter is easy. Tyler Clippard for example is on the 40 man roster, but he's on the minor league DL so lets say, for the sake of argument, that the Yankees wanted to, on 9/1 call up a player not on the 40 they could assign Tyler Clippard to the 60 day DL and presto - a spot on the 40 opens up.
Im sure there are some guys that they may have options left on. They just might not be the guys they want to send down though.
I've never really understood the 40 man roster rules because I figured Mussina's next start is scheduled for Sept. 1st and the Yanks could just call up anyone they choose because the rosters expand that day right? but nope, it appears as if the 40-man roster is set long before then and it's a crapshoot as to who is on it.
On the respect of Andy Pettitte: True Yankee fans always loved him and we were mad as hell when he was allowed to leave, even if we felt a little jilted by him as well. He wasn't completely innocent in his departure. He told Cashman he wanted to check free agency and Cashman said "okay, but bring me your best offer and I'll beat it" which he did, but by then, Andy was sold on Houston.
The ovation Andy got when he walked off the mound in the WS in 2003 should have been indication enough how well he was appreciated, the place was cheering like crazy (I was there) and we were losing!
Catch up to you folks later...time for my kids baseball practice.