On the Yankees beat

As I said in the last blog, I think Torre is couching it so that he can justify taking Phillips over Phelps.

If Phelps is way ahead offensively, Torre will say that production in spring training is nice but that it may not translate into the regular season, and if Phillips can raise his spring average to around .280 Torre will use some variation of the following

"We liked what Phelps did down here but Andy is a little better defensively and we think his offense would have been about on par with Phelps if he hadn't missed that week because of his mom's accident, but since he came in late he was playing catch up all spring, but we like the way he was swinging the bat towards the end and think he can do a few more things for us in the field than Phelps can."

If those things are true, that's one thing, if Torre is hoping that they are true to justify what I think is a sentimental decision rather than a baseball one, then that is not the sign of a good manager, that is the sign of a guy who knows that this is his last season and he's going to start handing out rewards for players who have been around a while.

This is ridiculous. To reasonable people, Phelps has won the job.

Chip : I agree .It comes down to playing behind Mientky .Phillips and Phelps w/150 ABs are close to being equal w/Phillips getting the nod defensively because he can play 2nd and 3rd .Phelps on the other hand if given the starting job would probably post some pretty decent power numbers although he strikes out alot.

Attention Bernie Williams - The Yankees are handing out sentimental roster spots. Please forward resume to Brian Cashman c/o NY Yankees.

Ruse,

The only problem I have with Phillips vs. Phelps is that with Doug having a chronic back issue if he were to miss time as he has the last two seasons, I would feel a little more comfortable with Phelps playing.

Again, it's one thing if Torre and the staff BELIEVE all the things they will say if they hand Phillips the job, it is another thing if they HOPE that it is true to justify handing him the job.

Chip : That's a good point ! Any teams looking for utility players ?

Cashman feels he made a "steal" by getting Phelps\Rule 5. No way he allows the "weaping" Torre to both weaken the team, and "steal his thunder", by not putting Phelps on the 25 man roster. Phelps either goes North if healthy, or on the DL.

Rick,
Good one!
It's true though, Torre just has a soft spot for Andy Phillips that is inexplicable.
The guy is not getting better, he is certainly not 22 so what is going through Joe's head. I generally like Joe quite a bit but this is silly.
Back to your comment about the soldiers, I always comment that we use the word "Hero" or "Heroic" when describing sports feats or everyday jobs that I cringe when I hear it.
Shortly after 9/11, my company's HR dept. sent a company wide email listing all the "Hero's" who had worked late to get a job done and I replied back to the whole company blasting them for throwing that word around, especially at that time. To me hero's are soldiers, cops, fireman, people who have put their own lives in danger to help others.
People who are not hero's: people who get paid a ridiculous amount of money to play a kid's game, people who work a little late at the office to get something done.

Sorry for the rant guys, back to baseball.

I think I'll be the first to draft a R\Sox player in the BBB Draft. You guys are right there with Torre\Yankees\loyalty.
Did "Bronx Bomber" change his "handle", or is he AWOL again?

Roy

Somehow I just knew you'd be the first to draft a dreaded Red Sox.

On Phelps/Phillips or Henn/Villone, who's in charge - Torre or Cashman?

Cashman is in charge. He is the "biggest" reason that Torre is still mgr.
I'm a mercenary. I play to win.

Torre makes the call on the roster.

Not when it comes to Cashman's Rule 5 "steal".

Jim A

Thanks and you are right on about the definition of a HERO!! Whenever I see one in uniform, I always approach them, shake their hand, and thank them from the bottom of my heart. The last one was just last week at the gas station. Most of them thank me and say they don't often hear that. What a shame!

Torre has been through alot in recent years, but who hasn't? I lost my dad when I was 8 and my mother when I was 17. In reality, I was an orphan, but I NEVER looked at myself that way. I just went out into the world with the attitude that it's up to me now to Git-R-Done.

I know JT has gone through his brother Frank's stuff, his own, Stottlemyer's, and Brousis and O'Neills parents deaths, etc. It seems he has turned into a soft, teary eyed, butterball of mush the last few years. And, now it's clouding his baseball judgement. Cashman needs to step in here and make these calls.

I think Cashman is in charge. If Joe was in charge, Bernie would be here stinking up the joint and starting in the OF.

Andy somehow, is clearly Joe's guy. How can he make a state 'touch better' on D? And then say it'll come down to the last few days OF ST?

So if Phelps goes 1-4 and Andy goes 2-4 Andy will get the nod? Come on, what else does Phelps have to do?

The GM has the final say. On who the players are as well as the coaches and the manager. One year, Billy played with a 24 man roster and short handed bullpen because he refused to use Ken Holtzman and the GM wouldn't move him.

It still remains to be seen whether or not Cashman gets the exec of the yr award for this alleged "Steal" .I don't have my crystal ball today.Phelps or Phillips getting 150 ABs doesn't excite me...If Mientkys back problems recur they can always plug ole' Giambi at 1stbase...you guys are getting your panties up in a bunch about next to nothing .

My posts are being censured ! I can't believe it!

Martin essentially ruined the rest Holtzmans career

Ruse,
Big Brother is watching!

what phelps did this spring phillips can only wish for , and lets not get into the ST @ bats. phelps did well last year in the minors. and again like my bogus interview said if you feel that phillips is sooo damm versatile then why sign a cairo ?? and a touch better is not good , that is like saying they are almost even. which would then bring you back to defense.

I tell ya;ll this the more this battle becomes public the more Torre's image is on the line. Baseball world knows, when in sinc Phelps is the better player who had a AWESOME spring. and people is talking about his strike outs ? well if you look at the teams he played for you would know , in a Yankee lineup he will see better pitches (which is why his spring is good) P

ruse

That happens to me all the time too. You write down a nice long well thought out post and it gets held back for review. It's frustrating and makes you want to not post again.

Just maybe Holtzman ruined is own career???

Billy Martin ruined the arms of his entire rotation of young starting pitchers with Oakland. He was also a hateful individual whose favorite pastime was sucker-punching people.

Gee, I've never had a single post "censured" or "held back". Probably has something to do with "content".
"Bronx Bomber"- Are you ready for The Draft Sun. AM? I know your gonna "kick some butt" in that League.

Well Zander, I have a totally different recollection of Billy Martin, as a manager and a person.

If you get a copy of the video Billy Martin: The Man, the Myth, the Manager - you will find numerous refutals by the pitchers themselves as to your claim on ruining the A's pitchers arms. These are the guys who played for him and they should know the real story.

Also, many drunks in a bar would come up to him to try to cause trouble so they could get their 15 minutes of fame. He was a magnet for cause celeb, thus the reputation. It is true that he never ran from a fight, but he wasn't the one causing them.

Here's my personal run in with him and my wife, sister, and her boyfriend (an Indian fan) can all attest to it. After a Tribe game in June, 1988 (3 days before his last firing), Billy stood outside the stadium by the NBC trailer signing autographs for over an hour. The line was 3 wide and about 200 yards long, and he stood there calmly smoking his pipe and nicely signed every autograph.

He also signed a bunch before the game down by the dugout after Tony Kubek interviewed him. I have one of those autographs, his rookie card. When I handed it to him, he says to me..."wow, I haven't seen many of those lately".

Later at the Holeden House Hotel bar, we met him and Clete Boyer and Art Fowler. He even came over to our table and spoke with us a few minutes. Nicest guy you could ever meet. Later, after Billy and Fowler left, we spent 2 hours at the bar with Clete Boyer...what a night!

Also, coming back from the restroom, I passed Billy in the lobby. He was posing for pics with some kids and their parents (I shoot myself to this day for leaving my camera in the car). I heard him tell the kids "that when you guys get to the big leagues, remember to always sign your autographs". As I walked by and heard that, I thought to myself...and this is the guy that you read about all the time being in fights??? He was the nicest guy you could ever imagine.

Meanwhile, sitting at the table next to us was the SS Rafael Sanatana (not exactly a star). Some kid walks up to him with a jersey and his number on it wanting him to sign it. He wouldn't do it and the kid left in tears.

I wanted to jack his face for what he did to that kid. And it was the ONLY request he had all night. Billy was hounded constantly at the bar, and that's after signing at the stadium for over an hour. That's why Fowler and him left, because he couldn't even get a minutes break from the autograph hounds.

So, you'll have to forgive me, but I have a different perspective on the personna known as Billy "the Kid" Martin. Mine is of a very nice guy and a great manager.

Roy -

Yes i am ready

Rick: I don't really know what happened to Holtzman ,all I know is Martin refused to pitch him in the 1976 WS and then in 1977 Holtzman rotted in the bullpen for most of the yr,he was only 31 at the time and never regained his form.Holtzman was one of the best lefties in the game at the time and relatively young.

ruse

I don't remember the details and I will do some research on it. I remember though, it was one of those deals where the pitcher wasn't buying into Billy's way of running the team so he was going to do things his way. Kinda like a Reggie/Billy situation. So, Billy just buried him in the bullpen. I will see if I can find the details somewhere. I'm just saying that Holtzman had his share of the fault in this situation. He did something to make Billy bury him. Like you say, when he came over from the A's, he was a good pitcher.

ruse

Here is one clip I found on the matter. Maybe it was George that ordered Billy not to use him??

When he was traded along with Reggie Jackson to Baltimore on April 2, 1976, just before Opening Day (as Finley started to shed himself of high-paid stars before he'd have to pay them even more -- sound familiar?), he seemed to lose interest in pitching. After a decent (5-4, 2.86) first half, the Orioles suddenly shipped him to the Yankees on June 15, 1976 as part of a nine-player deal, the sort you never see these days.

Holtzman, a sensitive sort, never took to playing in the Bronx Zoo, whose stadium was never kind to soft-tossing lefties. He made a credible 21 starts for the Yankees (9-7, 4.17 ERA) but was left off their postseason roster and by 1977, was the forgotten man on the Yankee staff. He was pulled from their rotation in midseason and pitched only five times after July 1, the last being garbage-time mopup work in a 19-3 blowout at the hands of the expansion Blue Jays.

The following year, it was more of the same; George Steinbrenner had been upset with Holtzman for his refusal to waive his no-trade clause and forced manager Billy Martin to relegated him to occasional bullpen work. At last, Holtzman agreed to be dealt, to make a prodigal-son return to the Cubs, who acquired him on June 10, 1978 for a PTBNL. Unfortunately, in a move that would herald future such not-very-smart moves, the PTBNL turned out to be Ron Davis, who had several decent seasons as a closer in Minnesota in the early 1980's, long after Holtzman was out of baseball.

ruse

Here's another clip I found. It's looking more and more like George was behind the Holtzman thing.

What had happened? The truth is that Yankee owner George Steinbrenner had grown disenchanted with Holtzman almost as soon as he acquired him. After Holtzman realized he wasn't going to be used on a regular basis, he demanded a trade. Since he had ten years in the big leagues, he could choose the teams he could be traded to. Steinbrenner wanted Holtzman to wave that right, and when the lefty refused, George bristled. As he rotted on the bench, Holtzman asked to be traded to Milwaukee or Chiago, where he could be closer to his home in Lincolnshire, Illinois. For the next year, Steinbrenner ordered Martin to use Holtzman as an insurance policy, and not to use him in the regular rotation. When general manager Gabe Paul asked Holtzman to report early to spring training in 1978, Holtzman declined, citing family problems. Holtzman's wife had been having trouble with her pregnancy, and Holtzman wanted to stay close to home. Paul's reaction was less than sympathetic, and the pitcher fired back. "When he (Paul) said subordinate my family to baseball, the credibility gap widened... Just because he may not have a satisfactory family life, doesn't mean I don't." Holtzman claimed that Steinbrenner had told him that if he didn't wave his no-trade clause and let the Yankees deal him to the team of their choice, that George "would be waving to him for a long time in the bullpen."

Early in June of 1978, the Yankees placed Holtzman on the disabled list, despite Holtzman's assertion that he was healthy. The pitcher notified union president Marvin Miller, who called the Yankees' decision "outrageous." Finally, amid this turmoil, on June 10, Holtzman was dealt to the Chicago Cubs, ending his frustrating stay in the Bronx. Holtzman became the fifth player union representative that the Yankees traded. Unfortunately, the left-hander was finished as an everyday starter, and he won just seven more games in the big leagues. His days of wasting away in the Yankee bullpen had hastened the end of his career.

Rick:
Great story on Billy. I will henceforth soften my stance on him. But his personal life (or any athlete's or manager's) is not very important to me as a fan. I really only care about performance, and he so volatile, usually after drinking, that he caused or exacerbated more problems than he solved. Of course, Steinbrenner must have been completely impossible back then.