On the Yankees beat

The way I'd like to see it go:
a. Phelps
b. Davis
c. Other (Igawa with Karstens starting)

The way it will go:
a. Phillips
b. Pratt
c. Karstens

Rieber- Please teach Kat how to get a discussion topic posted that actually allows people to make comments right away. We love ya Kat, but this is getting frustrating.

Anthony

Welcome to the blog. I really enjoyed your article - Fans to Alex: Just Show Us.

What will Chris Britton's role be? I assume Farnsworth and Proctor are ahead of him, but I'd really like to see him pitching some meaningful innings. I think he can be a real asset.

I second Jim A's comment.

ME NO RIKEY ROUND EYE UMPIRE!!!!

Darn it Rick...we're trying not to talk about that guy.

Without mentioning THE name, I thought the article was not entirely fair.

Loads of fans said nothing close to that. It was more along the lines of: WTF? Way to twist his words.

This fan to HIM: Love ya, stay and you are wanted.

The way I'd like to see it:
Phelps
Nieves
Other

Jim A

Just trying to give a welcome to Rieber and let him know I read his article. Here, take my machete and behead me immediately.

Bruney is out pitching Britton, but apparently can't make the team out of ST. I just don't get it. Of course, there's lots of stuff going on that I don't get...like how Karstens can't make it either. WOW

Rick- It gets complicated when you factor in economics, which Yankee fans aren't used to. In the past, the Yanks would take a guy who was making a lot of money and sit him down or buy him out if he wasn't performing. Now, they seem to want to get their money's worth no matter what, even at the cost of putting the best team on the field. I'm not saying they're becoming the Pirates or anything, but it is a hard reality. The other factor is minor league options and rule 5 stuff, I guess it's better to send a guy like Bruney down for a bit because they can, and wait for the inevitable injury so they can bring him up rather than have to release a player they have high hopes for.
By mid June all of this will have shaken out and the Yanks will field their best team. While the new focus on economics is nice, losing won't be tolerated so unlike the Pirates, the Yanks won't wait all season for someone to produce.
I hope.

RH first base
1. Phillips
2. Phelps
Too early to call, Phillips missed half of camp and is dealing with his gravely injured mother.
Backup catcher
1. Nieves
2. Chavez
3. Davis
4. Pratt

the YOUNGEST guy, I believe thats Neives
Last pitcher in the bullpen
2. Karstens - Long Man
At least to start the season because of all the off days, and Igawa's troubles.

Here's how I see it. We are not assured of winning the division by 11 games every year. It could come down to the last day or two of the season that will determine who plays in October and who goes home.

And a wise baseball man once said, "A win in April is as good as a win in September." I sure would hate to lose that all important game or two in April just because we didn't take our BEST team north.

Every single game can be the difference between playing in October or going home. You take your BEST team north and you play your best players every day.

Take note one and all that I have posted this warning here and now.

Jim A

The Yankees don't worry about money (even today). As we speak, they are just dying to give Clemens $24 million. There's more to it than that. And I think they are making a couple of huge mistakes.

My vote is for:

Phelps
Nieves
KARSTENS!!!

If we end up depending on Igawa and he doesn't step it up when the season starts, we'll be in trouble. Igawa is still struggling with his control and leaving his weak fastball belt high for ML hitters. He's walking a lot of guys and pitching behind too much. If he can't get his off-speed stuff over the plate for strikes they will sit on the meatball of a fastball he has. And he needs to be spot on with his fastball location because he barely hits 90. It looks like he has a long ways to go. It really sucks that although Karstens is clearly the better pitcher he might go down to AAA or the bullpen at best while a guy that is struggling is given the go ahead because of $$$. But that's the buisness of baseball.

I was told that Bernie was cast aside because we have to have the best players on the team. OK, I've put aside my loyalty and accepted that. Now, let's put the best players on the team. And, if Karstens isn't one of them, I'll eat my Yankee cap.

Rick

I agree totally with you it's not going to be a cakewalk this year. I believe the task of simply making the playoffs gets overlooked in the media and especially in this blog of ours. However with that same focus I have to temporarily disagree with what i assume is your choice to bring Karstens north in place of Igawa and Pavano. I know how great Karstens has looked but I'd have to go with the veterans first especially after the money that's been invested in them. In order to get a return in a trade or production for the team these investments must show some return so I'd take the chance on Igawa for now knowing I have the best line up in baseball and quite a few sexy young arms to win back some games that may be lost in an effort to give Igawa a legitimate regular season chance.

I agree all the way Rick. It shouldn't be complicated at all. Get your best guys together and let them go to battle. Right now it looks like the odd man out should be Igawa. I know how you feel about Pav but he is at least ahead of Igawa and has a little more life on his fastball. Let's see where the chips fall on April 2nd.

Let's say Igawa goes 0-3 in April and we miss the playoffs by one game. The way he's pitching right now, it's a strong possibility that Karstens might have gone 2-1 or 3-0 in those same games. This decision to put Igawa ahead of Karstens could very well define our season. We need to take the BEST team north.

Rick: I agree, it's just like I tell my softball teams- If you guys want to win, we're putting the best 10 on the field, period. If you want to have some fun, we can play anyone, any time.

OYF: Great point about Igawa's control. It's not that he misses, it's that he misses way up in the zone and he will get clobbered above the belt, especially when he is throwing 86 mph.

Rick,

You're not looking at things realistically. If you were you would not be looking for someone to explain to you why Igawa and Pavano are getting longer looks than Karstens. You're a smart guy so I know you know the reason without it having to be spelled out for you.

And while I agree that Karstens is having a better spring than Igawa there is also something that I believe Joe Girardi said the other night during the game that comes into play.

There are four types of players who are in every spring camp.

The real young who know they have no shot of making the team and will be in the first group of cuts and are just there to get some experience - Tabata

Veterans at the end of their careers who are trying to catch on or open the eyes of a scout watching in the stands - Todd Pratt

Players who know they have guaranteed contracts and are less concerned with results than they are with getting in shape and not getting hurt - Mussina, Jeter, Igawa

Young players who know they likely won't make the opening day roster but want to make enough of an impression so that if there is an injury the coaches remember them - Karstens

Again, it's just a matter of opinion, but I don't put too much stock in spring training performances.

I want Karsten in the Rotation Now. Kei Igawa is shaky at best. Karsten last year with fringe stuff was able to keep the team competitive. I know the yankees invested 46 million dollars on this man and they dont want the rotation to be too right handed. The team is better with Karsten in the Rotation than with Kei Igawa. Let Kei start the minors and bring him up slowly dont rush him like they did with Irabu who did not know how to handle the NY spotlight.

Young pitchers should not be "buried" in the bullpen, playing that infrequent role of "longman". Young pitchers need to pitch "frequently" in order to "hone" their skills and to build and maintain their confidence. Putting Karstens in that "longman" role, does not benefit him, or the Yanks. Just trade Pavano at the end of SP, (there will be plenty of suitors), and give Karstens that 4th starter spot. Igawa gets the 5th spot, and can work on his control. The schedule the first 3 weeks, gives Igawa fewer starts and time to work out the "kinks".

Roy,

The new trend is to break young pitchers in by starting them in the pen, so that the team can better control their innings. Boston did it with Lester and was the plan with Papelbon too, but he proved to be so good in the pen that they decided to keep him there, the Twins did it with Liriano, the Angels with Jared Weaver, Tigers with Andrew Miller, Seattle with Felix Rodrigez...list goes on.

In my opinion, if Igawa starts in the minors it is because the team won't regularly need a fifth starter for a while and they want to make sure he gets consistent work, not to give Jeff Karstens his job.

Chip

I agree with everything you just said (I'm know, I'm shocked too) EXCEPT one little thing.

You list Igawa in the group with the PROVEN ML veterans (Mussina, Jeter) and he REALLY belongs in the group with the young promising guys trying to make the team - Karstens, Rasner group.

I'm sorry, but his contract doesn't make him a ML veteran player trying to get in shape for the season. That being said, Karstens has earned the spot and Igawa needs to go to AAA. I don't know why that is so unacceptable. Irabu went to AAA after he signed.

Roy and Ken

I'm with you. Karstens has earned a SP spot. Trend this and trend that. It doesn't mean the trends are correct. It just means that is what people are doing because it's fashionable.

What is popular isn't always right, and what is right isn't always popular! Go with the BEST players, the ones who can GIT-R-DONE!!!

PHELPS....
Davis/ Chavez - Both I like
Kartsens

It is not too early to tell with Phelps and Phillips

Phelps is killing the ball showing that potential Phillips I like as a person and versatility but he has never shown me anything extradinary. In truth I believe his issues has SAVED his career more than hurt it , it give the Team MORE EXCUSES not to rid this man or simply just trade him. truth is his value is crap

Hey Chip, Moose is doing great. He's able to locate his off spead stuff now and his fastball is getting there same with Pav, Andy and Wang. We are not seeing improvements from Igawa. And although Mike Mussina is not concerned with his ERA he knows that aside from getting in shape he has to get his pitching up to par. The other pitchers who have guaranteed contracts are making strides and we are not seeing that from Igawa. His fastball is very weak and he's missing his spots up in the zone. He's not able to throw his off speed stuff consistently. He's from Japan these guys play longer seasons and have a longer ST, he should be in the best shape, why is he so behind now?! His location is off, his speed is off and he's throwing too many pitches so he can't even work on the kinks because before he knows it he's reached his picth total for the day. He has had flashes of decent comand but not enough. Torre doesn't even look comfortable saying he's there #5 guy but he has too. There is something different with Igawa it's not that he's just focusing on getting in shape. What will you say after his last ST start (and he hasn't imporved)? Most pitchers like to approach that like a reall game and take away positive results into their first start of the season. He looks like he's far behins the pack.

Rick,

In this case money does matter. Irabu signed for a lot less than Igawa did (granted most of that is due to market inflation)

Again, I have no issue with Igawa starting the season in Triple A, if that is what Torre and the coaching staff think is best...not only did Irabu start there but so did El Duque and Contreras so there is precedent. My only thought is that we not get too overhyped about the wonder that is Jeff Karstens.

As for lumping Igawa in with the group of ML Veterans, I did it because his contract assures him that he will be on the 25 man roster.

Chip,
I'd almost put Igawa in his own category as a player who has experience and a contract, but it getting used to a whole new league. I've watched him pitch twice now and I don't see a guy who is working on different things and doesn't care about ST. He is genuinely struggling to get the ball over the plate, which was the knock on him all along. Now he is throwing a bigger ball so the problem may be worse.

Keep in mind I've had a bad feeling about Igawa that I can't shake, even though I've tried to be positive about him.

OYF

All I am saying is that the Yankees did not invest $40 million into him to pitch in Trip A. Now on the other side of that, the team did sign him to a five year deal, so they could, if they determined it to be the best course of action, call the first half of this season an adjustment period and go from there...infinite possibilities. Still too early in the spring to make the call.

Jim,

the reason you have a bad feeling that you can't shake is the same reason that I did not want the Yankees to get Matsuzaka or Igawa or fill in the blank...been burned too many times by highly touted international pitchers

I think some of you are overreacting,Igawa has shown improvement everytime out...the sky isn't falling last time I looked !...Things appear to be static right now regarding roster spots,but I feel the Yanks will make a trade before April 1st...Rick look at what Lilly did yesterday and tell me who pitched a better game Igawa or Lilly...way to early to judge performances...a case could be made that Mientkiewicz has 1 hit this spring does that translate into an abysmal season ? Everyone chill out! Karstens will make the team if he continues to pitch well.

I don't think it's too early. How many more starts is he going to get in the next 3 weeks, 3 or 4? I think he's running out of innings and pitches to prove he can win games for a MLB team. I'll agree to disagree here.

I hope that the Yankees don't let that contract deternmine what's best for the team and what will truly help them to the playoffs. In this division we can't throw away games and chuck it to an "adjustment period". We might end up paying for it in the long run as Rick points out. The races for the PO have been pretty close for a few years. It makes the season exciting but it also makes games in April-June look a little more important for their overall record. Like when the Yankees lost all those games to the DRays, a fluke but it happened.

Excellent post Ruse.

There is no rush at this point.

OYF - a lot could happen in those 3 weeks, injuries to other pitchers on the staff, maybe he's like Wang and gets better as the weather warms up, who the heck knows.

You also point out about all those early games the Yankees lost to the Devil Rays...they still won the division that year.

What Rick doesn't point out is that making a hasty decision now the team might pay for that long term now (as was the case when to Get-R-Done the team traded unproven players for veterans in the 80's and early 90's) Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint, getting yourself all worked up before the race has even started will not help.

Igawa will stick with the team...show some faith...this Yankee fan neurosis about every perceived deficency is way over the top behavior.

I concur,

For a team that has averaged one championship every four years for a century some fans are shockingly pessimistic.

ruse

Lilly pitched OK. He is 1-0 with a 2.08 for ST. What's the point, he's not pitching for us?

Maybe what should happen is to take Karstens up north and use both (Igawa and Karstens) in that 5th start spot. Looks like Igawa is going to be a little like our old friend, Wright, and be near 100 pitches before the pen is able to warm up. Lilly may have sucked it up but I'm sure he has more good than bad he and his team can take out of ST and into the season. Plus he's pitched in the ML before. Igawa hasn't had 2 good innings in a row. Any good inning usually costs him 20-30 pitches and a few walks. He'll walk a couple guys and THEN strike out the side but by the time he's done that he's spent.

To me the discussion should be about the playoffs...can the Yankee starting 4 pitch them deep into the playoffs and possibly help pitch them to a WSs victory...if the need arises can they strengthen the starting staff as the season progresses....to me the answer is yes they can ! Hell they win the division every yr so what's the problem?

A win in April is as good as a win in September. The races are usually very close and every win IS crucial.

Why can't the hot hand Karstens get his chance in April with Igawa fine tuning it in AAA? That's all I'm saying. What if Karstens starts 10-0 like Small did? Those are 10 wins that we'd have in the bank for 2007.

The point I think ruse is making is that over his career Lilly has been almost exactly what Igawa has shown in his 5 innings (that's right folks, you're judging him based on 5 innings) wild at times, but can also work his way out of it thanks to being able to strike hitters out.

I thought we were asked for our opinion about the roster at this point in ST. I don't see any one panicking or being pessimistic. Just difference in opinion. I know the Yankees have the ability to make it to the playoff on the backs of their hitters but that won't help in the PS. That was not my point when pointing out the DRays series that were lost. My point was that some of the games toward the end of the season became more important to the Yankees because they lost so many to a team in their division early in the season.

ruse

I don't count being in the playoffs as a given, especially this year! Boston and Toronto have improved and our SP pitching is suspect.

You can start writing your post season lineups if you want, but I'm trying to make sure we get there first.

Rick,

Pitchers are not hockey goalies. You don't just ride the hot hand and call people up and send them out based on who is hot.

You constantly want to look at the best possible scenario with Karstens. How about looking at him as the average pitcher he was coming up through the system, how about tempering your enthusiasm just a BIT when it comes to this guy.

You know what, forget it, you're right, you've won me over, Karstens is going to come out of the gate 10-0...I say forget about fifth starter, OPENING DAY STARTER RIGHT HERE BOYS. First start in the playoffs, Jeff Karstens here you go. Start taking offers for Phil Hughes and Wang, don't need them, not with Jeff Karstens on OUR team.

Chip, Chip, Chip

Don't make me re-list Lilly's rankings as a ML SP in the AL EAST to make a total farce out of what you just said.

Igawa has light years to go before even being mentioned with Lilly as a ML pitcher. Let's talk reality here. You know, the proof (stats) you always want.

I almost forgot, in addition to Jeff Karstens - he of 6 whole appearances in the bigs and 5 spring innings pitched - being the next Whitey Ford, Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa are going to be TERRIBLE....not even 2 wins between them I say! Forget trades, buy them out RIGHT NOW.

venting with sarcasm feels good.

Rick : My point is he outpitched Lilly yesterday,and if you compare stats he's outpitched Mussina this spring...it's pointless to extrapolate from STing what a players performance will be during the regular season...Igawa has problems w/ command right now,but over the yrs in Japan showed excellent control...you guys are trying to squeeze blood from a rock.

Hey Rick, if that's true about Igawa needing to prove that he can measure up to a veteran ML pitcher with a .500 record and spotty history, then doesn't that also mean that Karstens has a long way to go before he can measure up to a veteran ML pitcher with a .500 record and spotty history (Pavano).

Think before you answer that one, wouldn't want you to contradict yourself.

Chip

I've tried, I really have. I've tried to converse with you. But, I just can't do it anymore. You are from a totally inverse world than I.

I say it's daytime, and you say it's nighttime. There's really no need for us to even respond to each others posts anymore. You walk around looking at things any way you want, and I'll do the same.

Its still early too worry that much about Igawa. But he has not inspired us so far of course. 1 other point : Gary Sheffield is a JACKASSS !

ruse

Actually, I think his rep from Japan is that he is wild alot and has control issues. Like Jim A, I just have a bad gut feeling about him making it in the AL East.

what the Yanks did 1 or 2 yrs ago does not really apply to this season,both Boston and Toronto are flawed teams more so than our Yankees...the Yanks improved as much or even more so than their rivals.

So then what you're saying is that because it fits your point of view Karstens has enough "history" to earn a spot in the rotation over an established ML veteran and a veteran of several years in Japan, but Igawa, who has 6 fewer ML appearances than Karstens, does not deserve that same benefit of the doubt?

You're right Rick, we do come from two totally inverse worlds, I live in one where I don't let personal prejudices against certain players taint my judgment and one where intelligent people defend their points of view.

Rick: Just look at his walk to strikeout to innings pitched ratios and you tell me if he has control problems?....I heard him being compared to Ishi,which is an unfair comparison.

Rick, where is that history of wildness you were talking about?

Year Team G W L SV IP K BB HR ERA
1998 Hanshin ― ― ― ― ― ― ― ― ―
1999 Hanshin 7 1 1 0 15.1 14 13 1 6.46
2000 Hanshin 9 1 3 0 39.1 37 19 5 4.35
2001 Hanshin 29 9 13 0 192.0 171 89 11 2.67
2002 Hanshin 31 14 9 1 209.2 206 53 15 2.49
2003 Hanshin 29 20 5 0 206.0 179 58 15 2.80
2004 Hanshin 29 14 11 0 200.1 228 54 29 3.73
2005 Hanshin 27 13 9 0 172.1 145 60 23 3.86
2006 Hanshin 29 14 9 0 209 194 49 17 2.97

CHIP- There is a huge difference between "being in the pen" and being the "longman". If your the "longman", you can go a week without work. This is of absolutely no benefit to Karstens or the Yanks. I don't see any way after the money the Yanks spent on Igawa, Cashman "drinks the kool-aid", and sends him to the minors.

Chip : right on Bro !

Meyers is just warming up. Its so early to say he will not be effective. Give him until June

Roy, I happen to agree with you. I think if Igawa starts in the minors it is only because the Yankees don't need the fifth starter and want to ensure he gets regular work.

I also think Karstens being in the pen is no worse for his development than having Melky serve as the fourth outfielder is.

Besides, I think the plan is to have the AAA rotation made up of Hughes, Sanchez, Olendorf, Clippard and Steve White.

Ruse,

I think you and I should both be on the look out for machette wielding old timers from Ohio wearing a Bernie Williams jersey

OH GREAT. We got the CHIP/RUSE tag team going again. Somebody "pull the plug".

Roy,

It's only fair, usually we have the Roy/Rick tag team going.

By the way, I'm going to make an official protest if Rick rigs it so I get the last pick in the draft over this HAHA

I don't mind Karstens in the "pen", as long as he isn't in that "long man" role. But trading Pavano would solve the Karstens debate. Igawa is going North "come hell or high water".

Roy ; you got a problem w/ that Meat ?

Karstens will get his "chance". Pavano needs to "stink up the joint" first, before Karstens steps "right in.'

CHIP- I already have the 1st pick for loyally supporting the "commish".

I still think the Yanks will make a deal come April 1st.

"Cashman" is too smart to just sit "idly by" and watch the rotation "suck." I agree that there will be a "trade" by April 1.

RUSE- CHIP I can deal with through the Fantasy League. You, your hiding in the shadows.

What does everyone have against Meyers"?" He hasn't had a chance yet to "prove himself" in 2007. He is a veteran who knows "what to do".

Roy,

If Karstens were in the pen his role would be long man/spot starter. If they wanted another short reliever in the pen they would take a Chris Britton or Brian Bruney or TJ Beam north with them instead.

Ruse,

I think a trade will happen, I don't think it will shake up the rotation though.

Roy

Who else from the blog is in our league? You, Me, and Katwoman? Is that all?

Ps...I'm quite savvy in fantasy. BRING YOUR A GAME GRR!!!

Roy : """Hiding in the Shadows""" Wha? explain.

Jorge, I agree.

On another note,

I'm a lot happier with the athleticism of the club's minor league outfielders this year than I have been in a while. Reese, Thompson and Sardinha all have good speed, can play multiple positions in the outfield, hit a little and more importantly, drop a bunt if they were asked to. Gardner too is like that. I'm kind of curious as to who will be the odd man out of that mix with all four of them ticketed to Scranton.

Do you DH one of them?

PHUCKER- Rick Keyes son is a member, Everyone else, has posted on this Bog from "time to time". Dave the commissioner "posts" very frequently. But I'm really the only team you need to concern yourself with. The "Katwoman" will have inside knowledge, but being of the other gender will "balance" that out.

Wow Roy, just wow.

RUSE- "Shadows" meaning hard to see, or "lay a glove on".

LOL

Poor Katwoman...I feel the patience waning for her inability provide comment links to the recently added posts.

Tomorrow night 6:30PM starts the fireworks. That Draft will be "hammer and tongs".

Roy ; don't be an ass ,I know the definition,I'm wondering why you think that.

Actually, the draft order is set automatically right before the auction. I do have the power to set it myself, but being a fair and reasonable person, I wouldn't do that.

PHUCKER- You can check her petigree on Yahoo. She has played other Fantasy Sports. She is no "babe in the woods".

RICK- You better not be going "back" on your word. How would you like a "3 on 1"?

If your in either league, I didn't know it. Being in the league with me, allows me to "lay a glove on you" all season.

Roy

You aren't going to join the anti-Rick tag team are you?

A promise is a promise.

ok Roy, your "comments" are taking on a little too much "double meaning" for my comfort level.

Last night after the game YES showed a Yankeeography of the '96 season. I forgot how they changed the team mid way from one with no thump to one with monster sluggers when they added Straw and Big Cecil.

CHIP- Come on. I've seen Andre The Giant take on 3 guys at once. No double meaning intended.