Blog regular Zander posted this not too long ago: "Despite the fact that Torre loves experienced players, Bruney, Rasner and Karstens will be on the playoff roster and Villone, Dotel and Lidle will be on the outside looking in."
I disagree. Bruney's spot is locked up barring a huge breakdown, but I don't see Karstens or Rasner making it. Here's the 11 pitchers I see on the team if it was today: Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Chien-Ming Wang, Jaret Wright, Mariano Rivera, Kyle Farnsworth, Scott Proctor, Mike Myers, Cory Lidle, Brian Bruney, Ron Villone.
That means the following active pitchers will be left off the roster: T.J. Beam, Octavio Dotel, Sean Henn, Jeff Karstens, Darrell Rasner and Jose Veras. For all you Dotel fans out there, it's time to give up the dream that he's the bullpen's savior this year. Obviously he's not who used to be just yet, and Torre has mentioned twice in the past few days that it takes Dotel a long time to warm up in the bullpen. That doesn't work in his favor, and neither did the home run Troy Glaus hit last night.
Agree? Or disagree?
And not for nothing, but why is Dotel holding a bat in his Triple-A baseball card?
Comments (15)
Jim, I would change Rasner for Lidle in the playoffs. To me he seems to have better location and slighly more pop on his fastball than Lidle. In fact, I would move Lidle or if its his option year not pick it up. I would rather stay with Rasner or Karstens next year. Not saying I would not be active looking for a number 4/5 starter in the trade or FA market. Last night in the 9th was just terrible. Meyers will be asking for more money if this keeps up. Torre must have brass -----. I look for Dotel next year to be much better. It was a stretch to expect more then what he has given.
While it is clear, Dotel will not be on the playoff roster, I certainly hope Villone and Lidle are not. Rasner and Karstens have already proven to be more reliable and can be good long men and Villone appears to be either (a) burned out, b) coming back to reality after a very good summer, or (c)both.
The only thing worse than Torre not "trusting" you is if he does. Scott Proctor's arm should fall off any day now.Quantrill, Gordon, Sturtze and now Proctor. The shame is Proctor will be shot before he makes any real money.Bruney will be next.Joe is so spoiled by having Mo he does not grasp the reality of any of his other relievers.
Assuming Lidle is healthy I agree with you Jim on your 11 pitchers. Dotel is simply not ready and I think that even though Villone has had more rockets hit off him recently than Cape Canaveral, I think Mr. Torre still has trust in him in a big game more than this other options (plus he's the only lefty option in the bullpen other than Myers who only pitches to 1/2 batters anyway). I like the way that Karstans and Rasner have pitched but don't know if Mr. Torre wants to take a chance with these kids in a big game. That said ,I think he should try using Rasner and Karstans in a relief role starting a 6th/7th inning during the remaining games to see how they respond coming out of the 'pen. Bottom line is that right now other than Bruney (and I guess Proctor) I don't have lots of confidence in the "bridge to Mariano". I personally think Farnsworth is a waste as I can easily see him coming into a post season game in the 7th/8th inning and blowing the lead. He may throw 100 mph but his fastball is straight, he can't pitch two days in a row, can only go one inning and always seems to give up a big hit. Personally I'm hoping that his back locks up on him to prevent him from being in the post-season as I would take my chance with the other remaining options (even though they are suspect).
Like all of you, I'm sitting at home watching the bullpen blow up in the late innings and it does have me concerned. Most of them have thrown way too many innings and unless they can get some rest, we'd better hope for our starters to go at least 7. Torre always seems to over use these guys and it has killed us in October. What also bothers me is the fact that these guys are not getting that first pitch over for a strike and wind up pitching from behind. I saw Dotel go down 2-0 to Glaus and I told my wife that he's going to hit one out and make it a 1 run game. Sure enough, well, you guys saw it for yourselves. In any event, I would put on the post season roster Wang, Moose, Johnson, Wright (he's done a good job lately), Mo, Bruney, Rasner (I like this kid: he can pitch), Myers (only against tough lefties), Farnsworth (I know he's a liability, but he has the ability to blow guys away if he just lets it go and not tries to be too cute), Proctor (he needs a break though), and either Karstens or Veras. I think that Villone is done as he can't get anyone out because his pitches are up in the zone (a classic sign that he's tired).
I just hope that these guys find it again.
A few days ago, I'd have said no way Rasner makes it. However, watching Villone's struggles, I'm beginning to wonder. Torre was clearly pissed off with him last night, and if this keeps up, Ron's fall from grace is all but inevitable. It's a shame, whether he's burnt out or whatever, but he's helped this team a great deal this year. Rasner, though, is showing he's got guts and grittiness (Torre's favorite qualities, after veteran-ness!). Torre has praised him in the interviews, so I think the kid has a chance. He's going to get Lidle's remaining starts (2-3?) and if he continues to be solid, he might make it. Also, who knows if Lidle will be healthy for the playoffs...If he's not, the debate is probably a moot point anyhow.
Why bother taking Villone and/or Lidle if they are not 100%? Rasner and Karstens, while not Drysdale and Koufax, are healthy and actually pitching well enough. Can Lidle actually be effective coming out of the pen? If not, why take him since he has a ZERO chance of starting? At least at this very moment, Karstens and Rasner would give you more than Villone and Lidle. They lose a lefty in the pen, but better to have a decent righty than a struggling lefty...
Jim:
I agree right now with 10 of your 11 pitchers. I think Torre will observe the remaining starts of Lidle or Rasner to make his 11th hour decision. Dotel is simply not ready and Karstens does not have Torre's confidence yet. It is sad what has happened to Villone - who cleary has lost velocity and movement from overuse. What is sadder is "Genius Joe"s" continued overuse of bullpen arms which has reduced the effectiveness of several fairly decent relievers over the past few years (Sturtze, Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor,
Villone to name a few). Joe Torre is a great ambassador to baseball, a player's manager, a master psychologist, wonderful guy...but a terrible pitching tactician!
I agree. And I also wish that Rasner would take the spot you have designated for Lidle. I agree that Lidle is an experienced playoff performer. Most of that experience is unfortunately bad.
Both lefties need to be on the roster so Villone stays.
Even though I am positive that Villone will make the post-season roster, did anyone see Torre's face when he was walking out to the mound to take out Villone on Monday night? He then grabbed the ball from Villone and didn't pat him on the back. I think Torre has officially lost faith in him. Also, Torre commented that Villone is what he is, meaning that he'll be good for a while and then revert to form.
Also, Dotel is absolutely awful. His pitches tend to fade across the middle of the plate, ripe for the hitting. Don't forget that Dotel was blowing plenty of saves with Oakland before his injury. I thin that Kartens should make the roster instead of Dotel in case a starter doesn't have it early. Torre should have a quick hook, especially in a 5 game series.
I rather take rasner and leave off lidle... to quote the Hartford Courant: "The Yanks are suddenly scrambling for starters with Cory Lidle's finger hurting and the team unsure when he'll start again." that should sum up lidle's chances of having a spot in the post season.
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