On the Mets beat

Hi Dave,
What BS!!! Mets beat the Phillies 6 of 9 and Citizens and 5 of 9 at Shea(God rest her soul) and in there was the 2 killer losses(4-0 top 9 at Shea and 7-0 in Philly). Did the hatred make them try harder than against say the Braves? Or was it bullpen implosion.....which of course it always goes back too. 09, new park, new team...

The Mets celebrate each other's successes no different than other teams, people just don't like them, period. The celebration thing is lame, other teams just need to accept that as part of their personality. They are building each other up, not putting others down, get a grip NL East!!!

if you remove the fact that the mets beat the phils heads up 11 out of 18 times their division records would look much different. so against the braves/nats/fish the mets do have a worse record, by about 5 games.

OK, Ben. But what was the Mets' record against the team that supposedly hates them the most -- the Phillies?

It was 11-7. What Gillick and Rollins are saying makes no sense. Maybe teams do hate the Mets. But it has zero impact on wins and losses.

Mr Lennon....except when the Mets play the Marlins at home in the last weekend of the season....2 years running

To me, if this is true, it just shows why these teams are consistenly at the bottom of the pack the last few years...only playing as hard as you can against the mets bc they do handshakes is extremely sad...this is more of a knock against the other teams in the nl east than it is against the mets...does anyone agree?

Dave- i think this was more about the other teams in hte division rising up to beat the mets. Of course there's hatred within the met philly games, they're rivals. but this is about the teams that are out of it picking up their game for the mets. I'm not saying i buy into the idea, but the statistical support you provided to disprove may be more than meets the eye.

David,

I think there is a lot of truth to other teams hating the Mets and the Mets' attitude on the field. Here are some big points:

1. I don't know how you can substantiate your argument considering that the last weekend of the season, two years in a row and with the division on the line, the Marlins would have fought through a brick wall to beat the Mets whereas the Nats basically rolled over against the Phillies. Teams hate the Mets because they celebrate to a degree that basically taunts the other teams. And two years in a row it has come back to bite the Mets in the a$$ the last weekend of the year. It matters.

2. The Mets have big mouths. The players are constantly saying that they are the team to beat and that they are the best team. And when they fail, they claim it's bad luck, a bad streak at the wrong time, not getting the job done etc. I mean I guess every team that loses can claim bad luck or a cold streak. But it's the Mets' arrogance that infuriates other teams. The Mets should think they're the best and say they are the best, but when they fail I think it's logical for them to admit they are not the best.

3. The dancing needs to stop. How much time does Reyes spend choreographing dance moves with other Mets players where he should be scouting pitchers and focusing on baseball? Did you see Reyes during the last game of the season? He was basically laughing and smiling and joking around the whole game. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd prefer a shortstop/leadoff hitter who was a wee bit more serious with the season on the line. And don't give me that's "just Reyes being Reyes" nonsense. He's not Manny Ramirez, and when Reyes has the rings to back up his act, then he can dance the night away. The Phillies come to play ball. The Mets come to have a good time. Hope they had a good time tonight watching the Phillies celebrate.

Being a life-long Mets fan, watching the Phillies win the World Series is like pouring salt into the wound. They basically had a regular season record that was no better than the Mets. Its amazing the Cubs and the Dodgers collapsed so easily under Philly during the post-season, and I can only dream of how easily it could have been the Mets instead of the Phils.
But being hated because of dancing and cheering? Give me a break, that is total BS. Remember, this is baseball - its a GAME. I don't blame the Mets or Jose Reyes for his antics. He sees the game for what it is. If it hadn't been for baseball, Reyes would probably be pushing a piragua cart in Santo Domingo or serving drinks at some resort. He's happy to be where he is and not afraid to show it. And you certainly can't blame Reyes for the Mets season collapse - look at their miserable pitching, closers AND starters. If you want to point the finger at anyone, look at the GM and the ownership. Why extend the contract of someone who has only fattened the payroll but no results?

Candyman, the only Met I have ever heard say "Mets are the team to beat" is the talented but extremely overpaid whiner Carlos Beltran.I think most would want to believe that but they are not arrogant, they want to win, period. They know they have to get the job done and be consistent, its just a matter of putting the pieces together.

I wonder if the Phillies would have won the World Series without a freaking CLOSER!!!!!!
That's not a excuse is a FACT!!!
They celebrate SO WHAT grow up and mind your own business

Congrats to the Phillies....Enjoy it while it lasts, April is not that far away. Remember next October, some team will likely be dancing on your grave....METS IN 09!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe said: "But being hated because of dancing and cheering? Give me a break, that is total BS."

I'm not sure how you can say it's BS when the other teams say they hate the Mets for that exact reason. This isn't a theory, it's a known fact.

wlaadair said: "Candyman, the only Met I have ever heard say "Mets are the team to beat" is the talented but extremely overpaid whiner Carlos Beltran."

Yes Beltran is the only one who said those exact words. But Delgado has been quoted numerous times saying how good the Mets are and that they have the most talent. It was also Delgado who said that the Mets sometimes "get bored" during the season because they Mets are "so much better than everyone." And what about Wright? This guy needs to shut up after back-to-back collapses. How many more times do we need to hear this guy blame back-to-back collapses on bad luck? Also Beltran overpaid? Find me another CF in baseball who is a gold glover that can put up his offensive numbers.

GG said: "They celebrate SO WHAT grow up and mind your own business."

It's not like I care that they celebrate or that any other Met fan should care. The point is that the other teams care. It wasn't "the reason" the Mets didn't make the playoffs. The bullpen was a huge factor and if the Mets had a closer like Lidge maybe they are the ones celebrating last night.

The main idea of Lennon's article is that other teams don't hate the Mets. But the facts say they do. (I don't know how much clearer it can be--the other teams say they do). If you want to say who care's, let them celebrate, that's just them having fun playing a game, let the other teams hate us, etc., that would be a totally fair perspective. But if you want to say that it didn't matter over the course of the season, I don't think you can. It mattered the last weekend of the season. The facts say so.

David, what does their overall in-division records have to do with anything? That is the most twisted piece of logic I have ever read. OK so the Mets and Phils had basically the same records against the NL east. But maybe, just maybe, if the other teams didn't "hate" the Mets so much, then the Mets would have an even better record against the NL east. Isn't it possible that the Mets did have better players, but because other teams hate the Mets, they both had the same in-division record. I get what your saying, but their in-division records proves absolutely nothing.

Candyman ... Gillick and Rollins both said the Phillies have an advantage in the division because everybody hates the Mets. They said it -- not me -- so I pointed out that supposed "advantage" meant nothing in terms of wins and losses.

And I'm also not saying the Mets aren't hated. Gillick and Rollins apparently hate them. The Marlins don't seem to like them either. But I've also seen plenty of players -- from every team in baseball -- laughing and joking with the Mets before games.

But why should the Mets care if other teams hate them? They're not paid to be friends with the other teams. They're paid to beat them. That's the bottom line.

Were the Mets less hated in 06???? Probably not, but they performed, until the NLCS anyway. And apparently the Marlins hatred subsided for one sunny Saturday afternoon when Johan shut them down.
Reminds me of what McCarver used to say...someone once said to him..That Bob Gibson is such a lucky pitcher, the othe team never scores when he is on the mound....

Candyman,

I stand corrected, Delgado has said arrogant words, but i'm sorry, i'm not giving in on Beltran, sorry to say. As far as Wright "shutting up", the media goes to him, not the other way around, mainly because the other players bail out of the clubhouse. He is entitled to report things as he sees them, unless someone new steps into that role, this will not change.

David,

Fair enough. I guess in my opinion the root of the problem is the Mets arrogance, but not necessarily that the other teams hate them. I bet if you polled the Mets' players right now today, Delgado, Beltran, Wright, and Reyes etc. would all tell you that the Mets have a better team and it should be them winning a ring. Once they admit they are not better and actually work on becoming better, I think the Mets could be where the Philies are now. The Mets' core has a ton of skill, but they still don't know how to win the big game.

Did Wright forget how to go the other way during the second half of the season? I'd love to see the breakdown of his opposite field hits throughout the season--I am almost certain they would be front loaded. Offensively, the Philies just seemed more willing to make a productive out down the stretch, whereas Wright was trying to pull a ball out of the park that was 4 feet outside. Of course you don't get rid of Wright for that--but again I ask why was HoJo retained?

wladair,

And I think you hit it right on the head. Get rid of Delgado and make Wright the de facto leader of the team, or bring in someone to fill the leadership void. Aka bring in Orlando Hudson.

Rollins get a life and thank the Mets for your only WS ring

Candyman,

I do agree about the core having to acknowledge that improvements and adjustments need to be made. Some of Wright's problems have to do with Jerry Manuel's openly recognizing that his swing was flawed but nothing was done about it, did he not convey this to Ho Jo. Ho Jo should have worked with him on this issue. Perhaps Delgado/Wright should be co captains? Someone new in the clubhouse (ex Orlando Hudson) until a proven leader will not be respected.