It's an interesting idea, and I'm very curious to see how it becomes reality. Is there anything less exact in professional sports than the philosophy behind retiring numbers? Cashman mentioned, with regret, that some of the past numbers were retired for emotional reasons. Yet it's understandable that emotion plays a role in this decision.
The Yankees already have 15 numbers retired, honoring a total of 16 players, and you could argue that the future will bring forth a staggering eight more candidates. From the "Torre dynasty," you have Derek Jeter (2), Joe Torre (6), Jorge Posada (20), Paul O'Neill (21), Mariano Rivera (42), Andy Pettitte (46) and Bernie Williams (51). And if Alex Rodriguez (13) spends the next 10 years as a Yankee and becomes baseball's all-time home run leader in pinstripes, what do you want to do about him?
Let's take a time machine to 2030, and give ourselves the authority to redo the Yankees' retired list as we see fit - add or subtract whoever we want. Here's what my list would look like:
In Monument Park:
Jeter (2) - Lifelong Yankee, longtime captain, seems to be headed to the Hall of Fame.
Babe Ruth (3) - This one's pretty easy.
Lou Gehrig (4) - As is this one.
Joe DiMaggio (5) - And this one.
Torre (6) - Second all-time in franchise victories, four World Series titles and helped drive the club into the age of mass media and regional sports networks.
Mickey Mantle (7) - Another slam-dunk.
Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey (8) - I thought maybe I could lop off Dickey, but his numbers and ring total are too good to ignore.
Phil Rizzuto (10) - Really, as much for his broadcasting as his playing.
A-Rod (13) - If he actually sticks around through 2018, then fans will probably be pretty into him, by that point.
Thurman Munson (15) - The captain of the 1977-78 World Series champs, and an elite catcher for a short while.
Whitey Ford (16) - Best pitcher in franchise history.
Posada (20) - Extra points for being a lifelong Yankee like his buddy Jeter.
Don Mattingly (23) - He recorded a phenomenal, if short-lived, prime, and he served as a ray of hope during a tough period.
Casey Stengel (37) - Seven titles in 12 years. That's ridiculous.
Rivera (42) - Yet another slam-dunk.
Williams (51) - He ranks quite high in essentially every major Yankees offensive category.
UPDATE: After readidng Mike McCann's comment, I'm changing my mind on Elston Howard (32), from no to yes. Granted, his statistics are not as good as you would think, but as the Yankees' first African-American player, he holds a special place on the team's timeline.
Falling short:
Billy Martin (1) - Not shockingly, he probably was the most irrational of George Steinbrenner's designated retirements.
Roger Maris (9) - His accomplishments are legendary, but he spent only seven seasons with the Yankees.
O'Neill (21) - He didn't do anything wrong. You just have to draw the line somewhere.
Reggie Jackson (44) - Agreed, it would be particularly odd to see another Yankee wearing this showtime number. But Reggie played just five years with the Yankees.
Pettitte (46) - Those three years with the Astros hurt his candidacy, although this is predicated on the notion that Pettitte will actually follow through on his retirement threats sooner than later. If he pitches into his 40s, then let's talk again.
Ron Guidry (49) - If you look at the Yankees' all-time pitching leaders, you'll see that you can make a better case for Red Ruffing than for the Gator.
This would add two numbers and two players to the current total. So the final tally of retired numbers would still be obnoxious, but not considerably more obnoxious than the current list.
Whom would you add and/or subtract from the Yankees' list?
Comments (12)
I agree with the de-retirement of Billy Martin. However, the sentimental attachment so many 1950s and '70s fans have for the man and his accomplishments would mandate retaining his status. Perhaps, a wiser way to go is to have #1 shared with the first man to wear the number -- the superb, yet-nearly-forgotten 1920s center fielder Earl Combs. He was the igniter and outfield glue on the first great Ruth/Gehrig clubs.
Leave Elston Howard's #32 retired. Yes, much of this honor is symbolic. But you minimized what this good and superbly talented man went through as the first black player in Yankees history. Don't forget how Topping, Webb and Weiss refused to scout and sign African-Americans. Howard served, likely unfairly, what amounted to a major league apprenticeship, forced to platoon, waiting several seasons before becoming a regular in the lineup when he was 31. Finally, when Ralph Houk committed to his playing everyday in 1961, he became part of many baby boomers feel was the greatest team of all time.
Monument Park is dedicated to honoring Men of Accomplishment, past heroes who symbolize the spirit and excellence in Yankees history. These are the people we want to -- and will want to in future years -- introduce our children to and remind them of how they helped build and sustain this team's unique tradition.
Well, it took exactly one comment for me to regret a decision. Excellent argument in favor of Elston Howard, Mike. I'll retire his number, after all.
Do we retire the "$" in honor of George Steinbrenner?
Keep the emotion in there. Take a vote from the fans and factor it into the decision.
We had a discussion about this recently on the blog waswatching.com. And most -- including me -- were against any set model for retiring a number. There's nothing wrong with emotion being part of the deal, and even though the Yankees have a lot of retired numbers, you can only really dispute one or two. Cashman shouldn't penalize future stars just because they had so many in the past. The extensive retired numbers of the Yankees -- again, almost all deserved -- is just a testament to the greatness of the team.
I don't disagree with any of your "no" votes - although I am not very much opposed to Billy Martin's number being retired. He helped give them a real good push when he came aboard. If George treated him like he did Joe Torre years later, maybe Martin would have been able to handle all of his demons better and the Yankees would have won more.
I am resigned to Torre's number eventually being retired, although I wish it wouldn't be. Joe is the guy who should have the $ sign instead ot the number. He's the Bill Parcells of baseball in that he puts such a big emphasis on the bucks. All of us want to be well-paid, but Joe takes it to a different level. I will never be a member of the Cult of Joe, no matter how many titles he won during the Steroids Era.
Williams should probably get his number retired, although I won't consider it an injustice if he doesn't. No way do I support retiring Posada's. Personally, I think the player should be a Hall of Famer to have their number retired. Jackson doesn't belong because of his short stint with the club. No on Pettitte, O'Neil, Guidry, etc. I love Roger Maris, but his number shouldn't be retired.. Yes, on Mo and Jeter. If A-Rod stays, yes on him, too.
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I agree about Billy Martin not being retired, but nothing drives me more insane than the fact that Reggie Jackson's number is retired. What a complete and utter farce to retire the guy's number on basically one post-season series.
There's not even a question about retiring Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera and Joe Torre. I would also retire Bernie. I love Posada, but to me he's borderline, so ask me again in a few years. And as much as I like Paul O'Neil, I would not retire his number. What makes him any different than Tino or Brosius, other than getting the nickname of "Warrior" for his assaults on the dugout water coolers? To me, that would be almost as big a farce as Reggie.
Ken, I respect you greatly but I feel that your retirements may be completely off. Let's take a look at Paul O'Neil, the De Facto captain until his retirement. Such a force, such a great player and a committed Yankee. I've gotta say that not retiring Paul O'Neil is a disgrace.
Elston Howard shouldn't have his number retired. He was the first African-American Yankee yet, he had mediocre at best stats and didn't even finish his career with the Yankees but with the Sox. Good man yet not good enough to be in Monument Park.
Billy Martin deserves to remain in Monument Park. The iconic quote "I may not have been the greatest Yankee to put on the uniform, but I am the proudest" will always remain in Yankee fan's hearts and is true. Heck, he even had a TV series put on about him (Bronx Is Burning) and his great job. As it states on his Monument Park plaque "There has never been a greater competitor than Billy" and for that, he deserves to be in Monument Park.
Joe Torre, although I'm definetly not a fan and think that his success with the Yankees can be attributed to Buck Showalter and lots of $$$$$, should be retired. He's the 2000's version of Casey Stengal.
Let me put one other man up for nomination, Goose Gossage. The man is an icon, he'll have the Yankee symbol on his HOF plaque, show some respect. And hey, he played one season longer than Reggie.
Ken I love these discussions. Though I think with the Yankees its different than with any other franchise because of how successful they've been.
I think with retiring #'s its different than the HOF. Not to sound too sappy but one of my main criterias is did this player capture you're heart? When in 2001 the Yankee fans started chanting Paul O'Neil, Paul O'Neil, that answer was obvious. That's why I think he and Mattingly deserve that honor more than Winfield.
Just out of curiosity, whats your take on Adam Graves?
I'm not enough of a hockey authority to address that intelligently, Richie. Although I can understand the Rangers' desire to honor many players from that 1994 team.
As for your list, Billy Martin has to stay. Just for enduring with George all those years he deserves two plaques! I think if you were older and saw him play you'd change your mind on that one.
Reggie...I think he did enough to warrant it. I mean he's a Yankee ledgend. Again, I think if you were in your 20's during that time, you'd change your mind.
And I'm not ripping on your age. I'm 36 so I'm probably right around the same age as you. But how can we judge a player like Billy Martin when we never saw him? But from everything I've heard, he got more out of his body than anybody in the game. Kinda like Wayne Chrebet. And even though I loathe Chrebet ( personal reason) I think he deserves to have his # retired.
Let's just retire the whole Yankees team so we don't have to watch them play anymore!